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Old 08-09-2006, 04:54 AM   #176
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Let me ask you this Mark. Assuming Don was correct, what sort of proof would you suppose would be availible to him?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:03 AM   #177
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I dont have time to prove anything. So I offer this, do some research on rapes. See how many women were raped by single male attackers. Rapes usually happen on the ground. Thus ground fighting. Of course you could just go to areas where a lot of fights break out and watch them. I think you will find that when two people start punching at each other they almost ALWAYS clinch. Why? because it is a safe way to protect yourself from blows. Once you clinch you can only do 3 things, throw, knee/elbow, or push away and get back to striking range. Two of these three things can lead to the ground. If I throw or trip you, its a ground fighting. If we trip while struggling, its a ground fight. In fact judo throws are based on this idea. The idea of when we grab you will push back against me. Aikido uses this same idea to throw people. But I guess because I can't prove anyone fights on the ground but me and the gracies then it doesn't happen enough to matter.

I would like you to prove all fights start and end standing enough for me to continue training boxing. I need satistics and case studies please.

Wrestling is combat. It is also a sport. I simply said wrestling is not ground fighting. You can find how I define combat above in my previous posts.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:41 AM   #178
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

one of the things I've always noticed in MMA is the ease with which they can entangle a leg and trip from the clinch. Especially when against the cage (read wall, car, etc.). Very hard to defend against if they are mixing push pull with underhooks, elbows, knees, etc.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:06 AM   #179
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Very true Ron, another thing I've noticed is how hard it is to stay standing when you screw up. I've had many a times in judo randori where I was trying to throw but ended up on the ground because the throw went wrong. Especially against bigger guys.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:32 AM   #180
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I think that a majority of folks here aren't really disagreeing. There's the camp that favors learning about groundfighting as a means of becoming well-rounded (perhaps a tad militantly ). Then there's the camp that doesn't believe groundfighting is necessary to learning the art of aikido. I, personally, can't disagree, at a high level, with either perspective.

If aikido is your primary unarmed art AND you are concerned with being well-rounded (in the unarmed ranges of engagement), then I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to work out with judoka, BJJers, boxers, Muay Thai fighters, Capoieraistas, etc.

If aikido is primarily a means of personal development (apply your own interpretation, since it's personal), then I can fully see where groundfighting could be of little to no concern.

I've said this several times on this board and others, it depends on what your goals are. If you're training to be an effective unarmed fighter, then you'd better have resistance-based sparring across a number of ranges. Luckily, you have several paradigms (e.g. MMA, judo, boxing) to work within. But then again, studying aikido and learning it as an artform may not (again, it's personal and case by case) be a primary goal as I don't think one of these things necessarily leads to another.

If your primary goal is to learn/teach/train the art of aikido, then you are trying to be the best student/teacher you can be to train what you are taught, pass down your version of what you were taught or encourage others to find their own approach based on what you've taught. I don't think the art of aikido (as it's practiced in its many versions across the world) directly equates to a system of fighting (some train it as a goal, some don't) as in creating training conditions (e.g through progressive resistance randori/shiai) that will develop relaxed applications of aikido technique against a skilled, resisting partner/opponent.

I don't think these two ideologies are necessarily inclusive/exclusive. I can only speak for myself when I say that I practice/train aikido (the art) as I'm taught by my instructor. When I visit other dojo or go to seminars, I try to follow the example/paradigm of whoever's instructing and learn whatever I can (without worrying about "I'd do it like this" nonsense -- in that moment).

I train aikido as budo in that I think there are more aims (mindset, do-or-die spirit, psychological and physical adaptability) and more real-world applications than just the ability to win an unarmed fight. Having said that, I do believe that resistance-based randori (it doesn't have to be competitive, but isn't necessarily cooperative) can (and for me, should be) be done within an aikido context as an adjunct to training (it helps get rid of the "I have to make X technique work" and moves to the "I'll take the technique that I get" approach IMO).

I also like to work out with grapplers and strikers (mostly submission guys and boxers, but I've played within other paradigms) purely because it's fun and I enjoy visiting and training with good people in stuff where I'm sometimes more of a beginner (helps keep the beginner mind in multiple areas).

Enough rambling from me, but that's kind of where I sit on the whole thing.

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Old 08-09-2006, 11:46 AM   #181
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Ken,

Your posts on the internet are almost as delightful as talking with you in person. In Post #52, you illustrate something that Minoru Mochizuki Sensei always said: "Truth can only be built on truth."

What remnds me of this is your reply to the fellow who asked: "what happens when you meet a guy who tries to sit on your chest and pound your head in?"
...
"Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
"If not, Why?
"If so, what do you do about this?
"Does Aikido provide any tools for this situation, or do you look to other arts for the answer to this situation?
"If Aikido provides those tools, please explain."

...
At the least, it can save us from finding ourselves suddenly shocked by reality and having to "claw" at someone's eyes in desperation. The fact is, as other people have pointed out, most of those responses are pure fantasy and would prove pointless in a real fight.

Besides, wearing skirts so much, we have a weak enough reputation without resorting to clawing people's eyes.

Hoo boy. Where to begin?

First. Everything discussed here is about tactical issues, and those associated only with closure on a target, which involves just as much "set-up" in the premise of the result as does anything else, including the "I won't let him get me on the ground" response.

Second. Aikido is about strategic body movement and the tactics we train to employ are simply to place things in that proper strategic relationship first and foremost without having to think about it while we are doing it -- that is the chief meaning and purpose of Takemusu Aiki. From the right position almost any tactic will work and from the wrong positon almost none of them will work -- which is -- in fairnness -- the strategic point being made about getting in mount.

Third. Every tactic has tactical weaknesses to exploit; every tactic has strategic options that can avoid its employment at all. For this very reason the UFC examples are not particularly helpful or illustrative of anything, precisely because they are set up to limit strategic options --- and it is fundamentally poor strategy to willing walk into a locked ring with somone eager to beat you bloody, but denying an ultimate option. Budo ain't about proving anything -- it is about ending a conflict -- instantly, or quicker if you can manage it.

Fourth. What is it, exactly, in budo or aiki terms that privileges the eyes or other soft parts from attack, anyway? Many training techniques use the flick to the eyes or the J-shot to the groin as preliminaries. Are we to assume that these are never actual strikes? That is simply poor training and not proper aikido. We train to preserve uke for further training, and because if we achieve the disruption of structure and intent without actual or prolognged contact -- strategically, we are in far greater advantage with our next tactic, and therfore have more options than we have if we follow through with the attack theatened initially. That is Takemusu Aiki.

Fifth. From a purely tactical perspective the ground issues arising from aikido are laregly in my view a failure of good ukemi training as the primary strategic element.

Sixth. Ukemi is the primary strategic weapon of aikido. Fundamentally, ukemi is about repositioning. And in repositioning you deny ground ( in the broader sense) to your opponent.


Any ukemi that is not either taking you out of range of a response going to ground or otherwise entering into sound position for a comfortable kaeshi waza throw, or to engage an irimi, atemi or sweep, is not proper ukemi practice, as it leaves many suki open, inlcuding the ground option.

Every attack is defense and every defense attack. The foundation of aikido in sword requires this. Ukemi therefore requires this also. In my triniang I have seen a few instructors who make this point well, but it is often ignored or overlooked. If the technique for the ukemi is high energy, take the momentum and get out of range. If it is low energy, irimi with the fall and depending on orientation, carry nage over, stick the foot in, up or wherever a soft spot beckons as you fall or as you are hitting the ground, or sweep the back of the forward knee with arm or leg. That is all proper ukemi exploiting the suki of the fall, and unless nage interupts technique, which is a suki in its own right, then he will have to adjust to respond to the suki he has opened by the changing position of your ukemi.

Basically, ground is not a preferred strategic choice for a bipedal animal to fight effectively, and is only marginally so in the unlikely 1:1 situation. Predators go in packs for a reason.

Going to ground may be tactically imposed by poor ukemi, but it need not be strategically accepted with proper training, nor need it be an issue for good aikido training to get up from the ground even against good offensive ground techniques. George Ledyard Sensei has demonstrated the efficacy of this to me against shooting and mount.

To the extent that ukemi is properly practiced as making for yourself an opening to kaeshi nage, ground is a place to get up from and keep moving. If you just lay downor accept a fight on the ground, you are on your own.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:23 PM   #182
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Hoo boy. Where to begin?

First. Everything discussed here is about tactical issues, and those associated only with closure on a target, which involves just as much "set-up" in the premise of the result as does anything else, including the "I won't let him get me on the ground" response.

Second. Aikido is about strategic body movement and the tactics we train to employ are simply to place things in that proper strategic relationship first and foremost without having to think about it while we are doing it -- that is the chief meaning and purpose of Takemusu Aiki. From the right position almost any tactic will work and from the wrong positon almost none of them will work -- which is -- in fairnness -- the strategic point being made about getting in mount.

Third. Every tactic has tactical weaknesses to exploit; every tactic has strategic options that can avoid its employment at all. For this very reason the UFC examples are not particularly helpful or illustrative of anything, precisely because they are set up to limit strategic options --- and it is fundamentally poor strategy to willing walk into a locked ring with somone eager to beat you bloody, but denying an ultimate option. Budo ain't about proving anything -- it is about ending a conflict -- instantly, or quicker if you can manage it.

Fourth. What is it, exactly, in budo or aiki terms that privileges the eyes or other soft parts from attack, anyway? Many training techniques use the flick to the eyes or the J-shot to the groin as preliminaries. Are we to assume that these are never actual strikes? That is simply poor training and not proper aikido. We train to preserve uke for further training, and because if we achieve the disruption of structure and intent without actual or prolognged contact -- strategically, we are in far greater advantage with our next tactic, and therfore have more options than we have if we follow through with the attack theatened initially. That is Takemusu Aiki.

Fifth. From a purely tactical perspective the ground issues arising from aikido are laregly in my view a failure of good ukemi training as the primary strategic element.

Sixth. Ukemi is the primary strategic weapon of aikido. Fundamentally, ukemi is about repositioning. And in repositioning you deny ground ( in the broader sense) to your opponent.


Any ukemi that is not either taking you out of range of a response going to ground or otherwise entering into sound position for a comfortable kaeshi waza throw, or to engage an irimi, atemi or sweep, is not proper ukemi practice, as it leaves many suki open, inlcuding the ground option.

Every attack is defense and every defense attack. The foundation of aikido in sword requires this. Ukemi therefore requires this also. In my triniang I have seen a few instructors who make this point well, but it is often ignored or overlooked. If the technique for the ukemi is high energy, take the momentum and get out of range. If it is low energy, irimi with the fall and depending on orientation, carry nage over, stick the foot in, up or wherever a soft spot beckons as you fall or as you are hitting the ground, or sweep the back of the forward knee with arm or leg. That is all proper ukemi exploiting the suki of the fall, and unless nage interupts technique, which is a suki in its own right, then he will have to adjust to respond to the suki he has opened by the changing position of your ukemi.

Basically, ground is not a preferred strategic choice for a bipedal animal to fight effectively, and is only marginally so in the unlikely 1:1 situation. Predators go in packs for a reason.

Going to ground may be tactically imposed by poor ukemi, but it need not be strategically accepted with proper training, nor need it be an issue for good aikido training to get up from the ground even against good offensive ground techniques. George Ledyard Sensei has demonstrated the efficacy of this to me against shooting and mount.

To the extent that ukemi is properly practiced as making for yourself an opening to kaeshi nage, ground is a place to get up from and keep moving. If you just lay down or accept a fight on the ground, you are on your own.
Excellent Erick. Your thoughts on ukemi are what we teach. Many of these concepts have been demonstrated to me by my Sensei.
I won't elaborate into my own sermon so as not to take away from this good post.
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:24 PM   #183
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Very intelligent post Erik...not sure I agree 100%, but I'm going to read it a few times...I'll get back to you.

Thank you very much,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:29 PM   #184
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I don't think anyone's arguing against the ground being a bad place to be. In fact, the points that could probably stand more discussion are with regards to the methods one trains to avoid going there via waza or ukemi, or as henka, in case the main thrust fails and you end up there, how do you get back up?

As it stands, I agree that ukemi, properly trained, gives you a lot more options for positioning yourself. But then it gets into the details of training methodologies against cooperative, theoretical, skilled, and/or committed attacks. Receiving an attack well, adjusting for changes in what the other person brings should be incorporated into ukemi, but sometimes it's also an eye opener to put yourself in a bad position and try to work from there, rather than assuming you won't have to.

Some address this within their own system of training, some address it by training outside their dojo and some conclude that they don't need to address it.

Depending on your goals for training, I can see any of the above working for you.

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Old 08-09-2006, 12:33 PM   #185
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Hoo boy. Where to begin?

First. Everything discussed here is about tactical issues, and those associated only with closure on a target, which involves just as much "set-up" in the premise of the result as does anything else, including the "I won't let him get me on the ground" response.
I agree

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Second. Aikido is about strategic body movement and the tactics we train to employ are simply to place things in that proper strategic relationship first and foremost without having to think about it while we are doing it -- that is the chief meaning and purpose of Takemusu Aiki. From the right position almost any tactic will work and from the wrong positon almost none of them will work -- which is -- in fairnness -- the strategic point being made about getting in mount.
I also agree
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Third. Every tactic has tactical weaknesses to exploit; every tactic has strategic options that can avoid its employment at all. For this very reason the UFC examples are not particularly helpful or illustrative of anything, precisely because they are set up to limit strategic options --- and it is fundamentally poor strategy to willing walk into a locked ring with somone eager to beat you bloody, but denying an ultimate option. Budo ain't about proving anything -- it is about ending a conflict -- instantly, or quicker if you can manage it.
I somewhat agree. I would say pride/ufc rules are loose enough that most high percentage unarmed attacks and defenses can be played out in one on one situations.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Fourth. What is it, exactly, in budo or aiki terms that privileges the eyes or other soft parts from attack, anyway? Many training techniques use the flick to the eyes or the J-shot to the groin as preliminaries. Are we to assume that these are never actual strikes? That is simply poor training and not proper aikido. We train to preserve uke for further training, and because if we achieve the disruption of structure and intent without actual or prolognged contact -- strategically, we are in far greater advantage with our next tactic, and therfore have more options than we have if we follow through with the attack theatened initially. That is Takemusu Aiki.
I would say nothing prohibits you from attacking the eyes or groin, except that as you stated above, you need to be in the proper position to do so. Ground training will allow you to do this if you end up on the ground just like aikido training helps you do this standing.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Fifth. From a purely tactical perspective the ground issues arising from aikido are laregly in my view a failure of good ukemi training as the primary strategic element.
This is interesting. I can understand how ukemi helps you escape and aikido type throw, but how can you use ukemi to escape a tackle, judo sacrifice throw, or a trip done while clinching?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Sixth. Ukemi is the primary strategic weapon of aikido. Fundamentally, ukemi is about repositioning. And in repositioning you deny ground ( in the broader sense) to your opponent.
I agree this is a good defense for throws or falls where the attacker does not go to the ground with you. However I think these kinds of attacks are rare. I would suspect most fights go to the ground with the attacker on top of or with you from a clinch. Very few people know how to throw someone effectively, but clinching is a natural response and it tends to lead to tripping and falling.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Every attack is defense and every defense attack. The foundation of aikido in sword requires this. Ukemi therefore requires this also. In my triniang I have seen a few instructors who make this point well, but it is often ignored or overlooked. If the technique for the ukemi is high energy, take the momentum and get out of range. If it is low energy, irimi with the fall and depending on orientation, carry nage over, stick the foot in, up or wherever a soft spot beckons as you fall or as you are hitting the ground, or sweep the back of the forward knee with arm or leg. That is all proper ukemi exploiting the suki of the fall, and unless nage interupts technique, which is a suki in its own right, then he will have to adjust to respond to the suki he has opened by the changing position of your ukemi.
An interesting viewpoint. I would agree within the context of aikido. But I doubt most attackers will throw you. I guess my opinion on this comment would be shaped by your responses to my previous questions in this post.

But I appreciate the viewpoint. It is nice to see someone thinking about how aikido relates to the ground.

Basically, ground is not a preferred strategic choice for a bipedal animal to fight effectively, and is only marginally so in the unlikely 1:1 situation. Predators go in packs for a reason.

Going to ground may be tactically imposed by poor ukemi, but it need not be strategically accepted with proper training, nor need it be an issue for good aikido training to get up from the ground even against good offensive ground techniques. George Ledyard Sensei has demonstrated the efficacy of this to me against shooting and mount.

To the extent that ukemi is properly practiced as making for yourself an opening to kaeshi nage, ground is a place to get up from and keep moving. If you just lay downor accept a fight on the ground, you are on your own.[/quote]

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:42 PM   #186
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Nice post Erick, thanks, I particularly like your point that ukemi is the primary strategic weapon of aikido.

regards,

Mark

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Old 08-09-2006, 12:53 PM   #187
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
This is interesting. I can understand how ukemi helps you escape and aikido type throw, but how can you use ukemi to escape a tackle, judo sacrifice throw, or a trip done while clinching?
I know you weren't responding to me, but here's something to chew on: Certain types of mae ukemi have pretty much the same elements as a sprawl.

One of the interesting things I found while playing judo in the last couple years was how the gi can both enable and block the belly/belly and hip/hip connections required for good grappling technique (which, I think is what the classical judoka found useful when all the wrestlers came over getting points with morote gari). Particularly if you keep the arms-length tegatana control with a gi, you can stuff/manipulate a lot of the other guy's attempts to attack.

Now in a judo match, you'll get busted for stalling (which makes sense when both parties are supposed to be attacking), so what you're then going for is to attack in such a way that you can take advantage of their counter (gotta be three moves ahead at least) or get them to over-commit in defense.

How this applies in aiki and non-gi grip grappling becomes more about using the body position in such a way that you're controlling the other person's head and hips so that the aiki-technique (or grappling, which is getting to my real point) becomes inevitable. The particulars of this have to do with where the other person's center is going based on what they're bringing and how you're receiving it (always comes back to ukemi, which to me is much more about receiving than falling), as well as your posture, relaxed power and the other stuff you're bringing (which depends on how you've trained).

Back to the notion of the ground, I think the same relaxed power, coordinated body movement and conditioning that enable good waza when standing are what will get you back to your feet to a safer position. The trick is how you're training to do that (if it's a concern).

Taikyoku Mind & Body
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:31 PM   #188
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote:
I know you weren't responding to me, but here's something to chew on: Certain types of mae ukemi have pretty much the same elements as a sprawl.

One of the interesting things I found while playing judo in the last couple years was how the gi can both enable and block the belly/belly and hip/hip connections required for good grappling technique (which, I think is what the classical judoka found useful when all the wrestlers came over getting points with morote gari). Particularly if you keep the arms-length tegatana control with a gi, you can stuff/manipulate a lot of the other guy's attempts to attack.

Now in a judo match, you'll get busted for stalling (which makes sense when both parties are supposed to be attacking), so what you're then going for is to attack in such a way that you can take advantage of their counter (gotta be three moves ahead at least) or get them to over-commit in defense.

How this applies in aiki and non-gi grip grappling becomes more about using the body position in such a way that you're controlling the other person's head and hips so that the aiki-technique (or grappling, which is getting to my real point) becomes inevitable. The particulars of this have to do with where the other person's center is going based on what they're bringing and how you're receiving it (always comes back to ukemi, which to me is much more about receiving than falling), as well as your posture, relaxed power and the other stuff you're bringing (which depends on how you've trained).

Back to the notion of the ground, I think the same relaxed power, coordinated body movement and conditioning that enable good waza when standing are what will get you back to your feet to a safer position. The trick is how you're training to do that (if it's a concern).
Good stuff. You are right about the principles (relaxed, coordianted movement etc). They are the same principles you will learn in judo, or bjj, etc. They wont use the same terms, but its the same thing. Movement from the hips, staying relaxed, using proper technique over muscle, etc.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:44 PM   #189
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote:
I think that a majority of folks here aren't really disagreeing.
Great overall post Budd. You've got it in one.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:52 PM   #190
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Hey Budd, nice post. One question...the kamae shaped arms with tegatana work well for me in a lot of places, but with you, it just kept getting me arm barred. Still too stiff, huh?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-09-2006, 02:32 PM   #191
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hey Budd, nice post. One question...the kamae shaped arms with tegatana work well for me in a lot of places, but with you, it just kept getting me arm barred. Still too stiff, huh?

Best,
Ron
Hah! Actually, IIRC, when we were playing and I'd catch the arm bar (or standing rokkyu, depending how you wanted to look at it), it was after my attempt at irimi nage, you'd turn in and plant with your arms up, stopping the irimi nage, but giving the forward juice for me to open my hips away, drop my center and into rokkyu (and my hands and arms did very little but stay loose and attached).

Now, it didn't always happen, if you remember, there was a time or two, where you'd feel that hole and bring your elbows in and suddenly we were in the clinch. Or (which is what I try to do), you'd disconnect the arm from your neck/shoulder on down, and suddenly you'd still have tegatana and a connection with me, but there wouldn't be any tension/energy left for me to work with . . .

Anyhow, we're overdue to hook up again and play some more . . .

All the best,

Budd

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Old 08-09-2006, 02:45 PM   #192
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Damn I miss training with you! We'll get together soon I hope. Struggling with a herniated disc in my neck just now.

Best,
Ron (the Aiki-nazi -- NO UKEMI FOR YOU!)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-09-2006, 02:48 PM   #193
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

OUCH!! Sincere wishes for a speedy recovery . . . (neck issues are right there with knees for suckitude).

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Old 08-09-2006, 02:54 PM   #194
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Taking things little out of order:
Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
This is interesting. I can understand how ukemi helps you escape and aikido type throw, but how can you use ukemi to escape a tackle, judo sacrifice throw, or a trip done while clinching? ...
[re: exploiting ukemi as suki] I would agree within the context of aikido. But I doubt most attackers will throw you.
Last bit first: I should never be thrown. I TAKE ukemi. It is mine; it belongs to me. It is an attack as well as defense. I therefore direct it, albeit within some constraints established by the prior attack.

There is a wonderful video of Saito doing tachidori where he performs a sidestep te-giri to an intial shomen uchi, provoking the block, and as uchitachi rasied to cut shomen again steps straight through him with a no-hands koshinage pivoting slightly to place the sword over uchitachi's now prostrate head. The cut he is escaping is absolutely irrelevant at the point he moves. That's what I am talking about.

Taking your specific examples in order:

1) Tackle - some variation of kokyunage or otoshi, basically a tackler is committed to going to ground, and I am not stopping him, I am just not playing along. Basically, this is how Ledyard Sensei has taught dealing with shooting -- essentially a sumi otoshi to the advancing shoulder while turning uchi or soto as the dynamics require to be out of sweep range as he goes down. In football, in contravention, I am constrained by the need to advance downfield, which limits my options in movement by at least half, on an entirely arbitrary basis.

Why in the name of all that's holy would I be running TOWARD a three hundred pound 6'6" behemoth, pray tell? It only adds to his advantage to input more relative kinetic energy to his advance in the energy equation. The again, on the other hand, I might ... ganseki otoshi below (big rock drop, great fun that) -- very hard for a tackler to counter, since he does not imagine you would go ground just as he's about to take you, and by then he can't alter his momentum to recover. Saotome Shihan does this so fluidly it's scary.

2) Judo sacrifice throw -- This presumes I grab or he grabs me. Bad aikido on both counts. (I know, I know, - we train with grabs ot learn not to. We's soft slippery things at our best.) Assuming the grab, most sacrifice throws from yoko-ukemi can be countered by going over them in a leaping forward roll or full sutemi, and then all he has is a hadnfull of gi or arm, and thus a direct suki to kaeshi waza osae. Few judoka train for throws to set up osae-waza as preliminary to the throw, unlike aikdioka, so we are more used to it if it even if it were done that way.

I'll break the last part into two because they are really different issues.

3A) Clinching -- Assumes the clinch first which merely gives better connection to his center - plus, see the slippery bit above. Rear clinches are notoriously poor for control, fairly easy to break and almost all have to be followed up by a trip, saving only Boris the Brute and the feet-in-the-air bear hug. That is basically an anaerobic endurance contest, while you are hook-heeling him in the groin, knee or instep. Almost any rear clinch is immediately vulnerable to kokyunage or ganseki otoshi, especially once he establishes any sense of hanmi for the takedown. We routinely practice kubishime from an established static kihon choke. It is mcuh easier from a dynamic attack. Likewise, a mune-shime (choke with the lapels from the front), which has the added advantage for the attacker of exposing the ikkyo line to disruption for the take down. This can be handled with koshinage or kokyunage turning either uchi or soto, and there is a great direct irimi that they hardly ever see coming (Who expects an advance on a choke?) . Frontwise lower down, see the point above about shooting. Almost any attack which has to crouch and reach is vulnerable to the openings for a modified ikkyo, gokyo or otoshi turn.

3B) Assuming the clinch even so, a trip is merely preliminary to ukemi (as is the clinch) and thus is suki for the attacker also. Essentially, it blatantly telegraphs his intent to procure ukemi, and thus is even easier to respond to with ukemi -- if I am TAKING the trip instead of having it given to me -- it's called ganseki otoshi, or any other number of kokyunage variations and yoko-ukemi carry-over throws. Done properly, those project the attacker beyond a convenient ground clinch or sweep range.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-09-2006 at 02:57 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-09-2006, 03:01 PM   #195
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote:
(always comes back to ukemi, which to me is much more about receiving than falling)
Amen and Amen.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-09-2006, 03:10 PM   #196
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Again a nice post Eric.

One thing though...have you ever had a wrestler clinch you from behind? They can suplex you faster than you can blink. I think I pulled one out of five waza off from that position with a district champion level wrestler. Mostly I spent a lot of time clearing my head from getting thrown on it. Only an idiot bearhugs you and lifts your feet then holds you there. Anyone not an idiot is going right for the throw...

Best,
Ron ('course, maybe I'm just slow...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-09-2006, 03:15 PM   #197
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

True, there's a number of other nice takedowns you can do from there as well, quickly and without strength. I guess it comes back to - are you training to fight a trained opponent or a guy with not much clue. Thankfully where I live wrestling is all but unavailable so we it's only the rugby players we have to worry about :-)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-09-2006, 03:24 PM   #198
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I can agree with the above RE: not having much time to deal with skilled attacks . . . . also from my perspective, when it comes to dealing with strikes and grappling, you and your training partners have to learn to at least how to give some skilled attacks in order that you and your partners can train to receive and deal with skilled attacks.

Of course I'm not implying that anyone isn't doing this . . .

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Old 08-09-2006, 04:14 PM   #199
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Eric,

Good replys, I can see you have thought out your responses to common attacks. I'm assuming you train for them as well (which is also a good thing). This was the kind of responses I was hoping for. A person examining how they would deal with a ground attack or takedown. It is also much better then the 'I'm just not going to the ground' response. You sound very prepared for most common takedowns, which means you are already that much more prepared to deal with ground fighting.

I would be interested in working some judo style randori with someone who could employ the skills you mention. It would be a good learning experiance to see how I react to them without prior knowedge. But one can hope

Anyways, good post. I do have one question. Assuming you do somehow end up on the ground in a fight (worst case all else failed type senario). What are your ideas on using aikido to escape a position like the mount or side control and return to standing quickly and safely?

- Don
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Old 08-09-2006, 05:14 PM   #200
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
One thing though...have you ever had a wrestler clinch you from behind? They can suplex you faster than you can blink.
Waist or chest/shoulders I assume. Hmmm, I need to try this out. We don't have any wrestlers currently training, but a buddy of mine was a wrestler in college so I have some rudimentary but working knowledge of suplex.

Suplex seems basically like a frontward sacrifice koshinage/yoko- ukemi (excepting the "real pro wrasslin' " vertical version and -- let's just leave that one alone, shall we?)

Suplex requires the sacrifice fall, because our hips don't bend that way, and the arch of the spine (hence "supple" as the rootword) has to compensate to drive the hips forward. Basically, suplex is a fairly straightforward sacrifice yoko-ukemi from a rear torso grab, leaving the thrower in a position to turn and mount.

But thinking it through ... The suplex seesm to rely on the "getting away" reflex in response to the clinch to open entering room for his hips to bow in underneath while your top is pinned in the clinch. If you are instead entering him as he grabs, this should disrupt the fundamental dynamic of the the throw, because the angular momentum is reversed (probably opens up a different move, though).

Wrestlers are typically taught to turn the hips out of reach and address the attacker frontally if they can -- not to enter blindly backward. We have no such compunctions. That training combined with that reflex sould make wresters more vulnerable to suplex than aikidoka, whihc may be why it is not commonly trained in aikido . I wonder what wrestlers teach as counter.

You might setup a koshinage with the entering hip turn to break the line of the suplex that he intends for the takedown to one side. This is what he is about to do anyway, just sooner than he intended. I'll bet that is what you tried. And I'll bet what stymied you most was a shift of grip toward the waist.

Assuming you are "supple" in return, aiki-otoshi would probably work. Suplex moves the bottom out from the top, aiki-otoshi does too, but in a different way. You could move with an uchi irimi turn to get your hips out of line initially, and either catch the head between your arm and shoulder for a men-nage (especially if he is around the waist) or kokyunage ( or ganseki drop) to suwari, or if you were a little later on his attack, as he plants forward, shift to the side and move back for the aiki-otoshi. That would be harder from around on the waist but easier if he was around the chest/ shoulders. Seems like a mae-ukemi 90 degrees off or a uchi turn yoko-ukemi would give him something to think about, too. Have to play with those. There are hold breaks to consider, too, a la kubishime, and other ushiro attacks.

Ooh ... something to play with.

[quote=Ron Tisdale]I think I pulled one out of five waza off from that position with a district champion level wrestler. Mostly I spent a lot of time clearing my head from getting thrown on it.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Only an idiot bearhugs you and lifts your feet then holds you there. Anyone not an idiot is going right for the throw...
Depends how big he is ... But It's not nice to stereotype the big guys as both slow AND stupid ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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