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Old 08-03-2006, 08:31 PM   #126
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I don't know about everybody else but I spend a lot of time "on the ground."
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:02 PM   #127
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
The moral of this: Don't listen to hype, quite wasting energy blathering on about adding some outside "value" to your training and instead use it to train more. If you like BJJ, train in it. If you like Aikido, train in it. If you like both, do both. You won't hear me say one is better than the other. To paraphrase my sensei, the best martial art is the one you love and are good at.
Mark
couldn't have said it better. some of the replies that i've read would have had me believing that if O-sensei was alive today, he'd be rushing off to join one of those bjj/wrestling classes, just so he can "complete" his aikido.
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Old 08-04-2006, 01:32 AM   #128
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
RonTisdale wrote:
I have trained waza like that in Daito ryu. Even versions of hadaka jime. With 'hooks' as well. Very nice picture by the way...was that from the Noma Dojo period?
You do that in DR? My Yoshinkan dojo does not... these are techniques I am picking up from my Judo studies. Good stuff.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
As for the initial entry, try doing some research. There's a link to a nice article on Ito in the Aikido Journal. Shioda and the fight in China. Mifune and Judo (men twice his size couldn't throw him to the ground). Takeda and his gang fight. While some people's Aikido might not work or provide tools, other people's Aikido does.
Wrt Shioda's fight in Shanghai, he liberally used atemi and a broken glass bottle to finish his opponent.
As for Mifune, well, he is called Kami Judo (Judo God) for a particular reason i.e., he is Unbeatable;
When Takeda fought those construction workers , Takeda wasn't fighting empty handed, he had his trusty katana to even things up. I am such a history buff... I am ashame

Quote:
ksy wrote:
couldn't have said it better. some of the replies that i've read would have had me believing that if O-sensei was alive today, he'd be rushing off to join one of those bjj/wrestling classes, just so he can "complete" his aikido
Speaking of O'sensei, if you read enough of his biography, he was a bad ass fighter, no doubt. But if you read carefully his challenges, he was always the one being challenged. This, IMO, he has the liberty to wait for the attack to come, he was not the one to need to go forth on the offensive. In the book Aikido Shugyo, G. Shioda said O'sensei was a master of deception. He would wave his hands here and there to entice you to enter and then.... WHAM! Instant victory. Masatsu Agutsu (sp??) And I think aikido technique work best in such scenarios. Again, if you want to make aikido work, you have to create the opening favourable to aikido. O'sensei's aikido was no exception.

Furthermore, wrt to serious fight, I would think that O'sensei probably only has one documented life and death struggle. I.e. when being ambushed by fire-armed bandits in Manchuko, Northern China. And how did he fight the bandits? He used his katana, not empty hand.

With respect to ground grappling, I just had a chat with a friend of mine. It is not that aikido does not work in a fight, it is just that when in a serious altercation, normal mortals like us are usually overwhelm with adrenaline and stuck with panic that most of our fine motor skills becomes useless. And if you look at most aikido controlling techs, it utilises fine motor skills, atemi-waza being the exception.

Now look at grappling skills, most of it utilises gross motor skills to accomplish control and submission. Guess what has a higher percentage success in a fight. NB, I can only based my experience in the dojo, as I do not normally participate in street fight.

Look at these photos below; see how much control one gets with these ground techniques, NB these techniques are being accomplished using gross motor function.



All the best,
Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 08-04-2006, 01:51 AM   #129
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
couldn't have said it better. some of the replies that i've read would have had me believing that if O-sensei was alive today, he'd be rushing off to join one of those bjj/wrestling classes, just so he can "complete" his aikido.
Aikido is not incomplete. It is Aikido. You can practice it and get from it all the the things Aikido has to offer. If your goal is self defence you may need to add other things to it to meet your goal. But that's not a failing of aikido, it's just saying your goal doesn't entirely marry up with Aikido's goal.

If O'sensei was alive today I wouldn't mind betting that
1) if he was focused on self defence and fighting, he would be doing some groundwork
and
2) He wouldn't be focused on self defence and fighting.


Also good post Boon.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-04-2006, 06:07 AM   #130
Michael Cardwell
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

What are all of you people talking about? I take people to the ground every aikido class...when I throw them them there or lead them down to pin them. Seriesouly though I don't see anything wrong with being knowledgable about as many martial techniques as you can. Something everyone should remember is that old saying: "Over specialize and you breed in weekness."

Michael
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Old 08-04-2006, 06:54 AM   #131
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I'm sure if O'Sensei was alive today he would not need bjj. Why? Because he already learned and knew how to fight on the ground. O'Sensei was a very well rounded fighter.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:30 AM   #132
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I'm sure if O'Sensei was alive today he would not need bjj. Why? Because he already learned and knew how to fight on the ground. O'Sensei was a very well rounded fighter.
If O-Sensei didn't need it, I don't need it!
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Old 08-04-2006, 01:15 PM   #133
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
If O-Sensei didn't need it, I don't need it!
Are you saying I can dodge bullets?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-04-2006, 02:23 PM   #134
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

the problem with the Statement "if O'sensei didn't need it, I don't need it", is that most of us are not O'Sensei and did not have his background prior to evolving aikido. If we look at aikido from the aspect of fighitng, combat effectiveness, or what not, we enter into a new realm.

However, it is true at the same time that you don't necessarily need all that other stuff outside of aikido, if your goal is those of the endstate that O'sensei reached with aikibudo. I think it is important to realize that O'sensei spent years on a path that culminated to him reaching a decision that "wow, look at what we can discover through this methodology".

A parallel I think can be drawn to Buddha as well. He did lots of aesthetic practices, only to discover that the middle way was the best and that the path to enlightment did not require all that stuff!

BUT...

Some of us, like me, have to figure this out for ourselves, and the path to understanding can take many turns and so forth.

I suppose this is why I like all this stuff, it is fun, challenging, and constantly changing, and constantly discovering things every day!
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Old 08-04-2006, 03:51 PM   #135
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
If O-Sensei didn't need it, I don't need it!
yeah but the point was O'sensei didn't need it because he already had it.

The other thing to consider is O'sensei didn't need it because he was no longer overly concerned with self defence, so much as using budo to refine the spirit. If that is your goal as well, great, you're right, Aikido will be all you need. If, like the original poster, your goals are a little different to Ueshiba's "if he didn't need it I don't" needs to be more carefully examined.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-05-2006, 01:49 AM   #136
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

The personal discussion between Ken and David have been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10747

-- Jun

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Old 08-05-2006, 10:02 AM   #137
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

The part of my message which I actually cared about got moved as collateral damage to Jun's thread maintenance. Not his fault, but I felt it was important to poist that bit here.

----

As for ground techniques, I believe that it's useful to know them. I don't buy the idea that 90% of fights go to the ground, but some of them do.

What I know for certain is that my father, Nidan in Judo, believes that a lot of matches are won on the ground. I suspect he's right. But I also don't expect Judoka to be my biggest problem in a self-defense situation.

Wannabe wrestlers, now, those I can see. But the "wannabe" part is important in those cases. These aren't people who actually know anything, they're people who think they know something.

Playing around with Aikido principals on the ground has turned up an interesting point: they work. Some new techniques and ideas are needed, but it's still essentially Aikido on the ground.

Would they work against an actual, trained wrestler? I doubt it. Certainly not against a BJJ guy. But the average wannabe wrestler? Oh yeah.

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Old 08-05-2006, 10:54 AM   #138
David Orange
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
The personal discussion between Ken and David have been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10747

-- Jun
Sorry, Jun sama. Thank you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-05-2006, 12:54 PM   #139
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Yeah Michael Riehele, my favorite technique against wannabe wrestlers is kote gaeshi. The fall for it every time. also, I like to say 100% of ground fights end up on the ground. That is the statistic I focus on while training.

Michael Fooks, it is scary that you and I are on the same wave length alot of the time.
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Old 08-05-2006, 01:57 PM   #140
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
The other thing to consider is O'sensei didn't need it because he was no longer overly concerned with self defence, so much as using budo to refine the spirit. If that is your goal as well, great, you're right, Aikido will be all you need.
That is my goal indeed.
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Old 08-05-2006, 02:47 PM   #141
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
Playing around with Aikido principals on the ground has turned up an interesting point: they work. Some new techniques and ideas are needed, but it's still essentially Aikido on the ground.
.
Absolutely they work! BJJ is really nothing but the core principals of Aikido applied in a ground context.

Kevin you're not the first to call me scary If you ever find yourself in New Zealand we'll have to hook up for a roll.
At the moment, having spent 6 hours with John Will yesterday and about to do another 3 to day I'm a very happy man.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-05-2006, 02:54 PM   #142
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
That is my goal indeed.
cool. But you do understand it wasn't the goal of the original poser right? Hence the discussion.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:43 PM   #143
David Orange
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Aiki and Ground Techniques

Well, looky here, y'all.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/downloa...ia=video&id=30

There are some very interesting points in this video. First is Katsuyuki Kondo, then Tokimune Takeda, son of Sokaku Takeda.

The final segment shows Tokimune allowing himself to be held on the ground by nine men. He throws them all off from the pinned position.

Odd, not exactly realistic. It's a demo. But I think there must be other aiki ground techniques that are more practically oriented.

Still, why has aikido not retained any ground techniques?

I think the clearest reason is that aikido contains a few instantly deadly techniques and the practitioner will use those in a real confrontation. Kotaro Yoshida, for instance, of daito ryu, is said to have killed a bear with one such technique. He used an iron fan, to be sure, but the same technique will work with the empty hand.

Part of the effectiveness of aiki is that when the practitioner realizes that someone is about to seriously attack him, and he decides to defend himself seriously, it communicates subconsciously to the attacker. He realizes on some level that the aiki man may actually kill him if he attacks and this weakens the his ability to attack.

Mochizuki Sensei said that when confronted suddenly, if we shrink away from the surprise it is not aiki. But if, when confronted, we go to the opponent, it is aiki. Attack the attack. The old timers never intended to allow themselves to be taken to the ground and they did NOT run. The old saying, "Under the sword is hell," means precisely that if you run, you will be cut down. The only hope, he said, is to enter and run the risk of losing your life because if you run away the attacker is almost guaranteed to kill you. In the days of real application, aiki men intended to end the confrontation instantly. Every other technique cascades down from that one technique. And if the opponent's intention is weakened by his subconscious perception that nage is about to kill him if he enters, the deflecting and joint locking techniques are a merciful alternative which nage may use at his own discretion.

Well, look at some of the complicated entagling and locking techniques Kondo Sensei demonstrates. Why didn't Ueshiba OSensei retain those?

And just as OSensei deleted parts of Sokaku Takeda's art, is modern aikido very much related to OSensei's art? As I peruse these forums more, I am convinced that what we see today is far more the product of Tohei and Kisshomaru Senseis' modifications. And each of their students also made some modifications. Undoubtedly, many of them know those methods, but if their teacher had deleted them, they would not know them. And if they teach ten or a thousand students, none of them will know, either.

And now "aikido" means many different things to the many, many people who speak the word. To some it's an art very close to Sokaku Takeda's art. To others, it's full cooperation and falling for whatever nage does. But they all want to wear the black belt and most will claim (if only in private) that aikido really is an effective art of self defense. I would say that some forms are and others definitely are not, yet they all wear the black belt.

If you want to do aikido as purely misogi, to refine your mind and spirit, that is very good. But if you seriously think it's about self defense, you must be concerned with potentially fatal weaknesses and do something about them. Wishful thinking will not help. Learning some ground fighting will.

However, once we've gone there, where does it end? What standard of opponenet must we train for? In some systems, the uke is taught to attack as if he has no sense at all and fall down at nage's gesture. People like Jason DeLucia train for the cage fights. But isn't even someone like Jason leaving himself vulnerable if he doesn't train to overcome a fully-geared Marine with body armor, a helmet, pistol, rifle, knife and night vision?

And if you learn to overcome him, then you have to learn to face two of him, then ten.

So each of us has to find the level at which aikido enhances and serves our human life, helps us to defend and care for our families and still leaves us fit to go to work the next day.

Best wishes,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-05-2006, 05:06 PM   #144
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

David Orange Wrote:

Quote:
But isn't even someone like Jason leaving himself vulnerable if he doesn't train to overcome a fully-geared Marine with body armor, a helmet, pistol, rifle, knife and night vision?
No I don't think so. Could you elaborate on this more?

I don't think you can train to mitigate every possible risk you might face. In fact, I think there are very few instances. Through Budo we can prepare ourselves to live a good and satisfying life, and we can put our affairs in order to be prepared to die with honor and dignity when the time comes. That is about the only thing we can mitigate.

Soldiers and police officer that are going to knowingly enter battle of some sort certainly have a need to prepare themselves for particular kinds of risk.

The average person walking down the street cannot prepare themselves to deal physically handle violence that may come as an overwhelming suprise.

I know we'd all like to think we could, but if you happen to be at the wrong place, and the wrong time, with the wrong circumstances...well hopefully budo has prepared you adequately to make the right decisions or if that is out of your control to do the best you can.

Don't take this as a "there is nothing you can do, victim mentality". That is not what I am advocating, but, I think many of us in aikido, martial arts, and budo have an idea about what fighting, muggings, and violent encounters will be. The reality of the situation may be that thngs physically may not go our way.

To me, if we spend all our time focusing on "slaying all the dragons" in the world by seeking all the lethal techniques, learning all the fancy knife techniques, and all that, we will miss the meaning of why we need to study. This type of study is based on fear and trying to mitigate fear.

We need to accept fear, dismiss it, and live a happy and fulfilled life. IMO, if we focus on the fear of violence and spend all our time learning self defense moves etc, then we have already become victims of fear and the violence that we are trying to ultimately overcome.

Not to get too political, but I think the current world situation in the Global War on Terrorism has much to do with this type of fear. Terrorist win when they conquer our perceptions and strike fear in our hearts. The fear is what motivates us to take action and fight back I think.

I think we can best defend our families by teaching each other how to be happy, fulfilled individuals, and living balanced lives.
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Old 08-05-2006, 11:42 PM   #145
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Most Meaningful Post

Kevin,

Very nice post. Very nice. Very meaningful. I didn't mean we have to prepare for all that, but if we think we can cover all the bases, there are always more bases to cover. You said it much better.

I'm listening. Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-06-2006, 08:47 PM   #146
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I think we can best defend our families by teaching each other how to be happy, fulfilled individuals, and living balanced lives.
still trying to find my balance but these are good words to start the week with. yes, (lets out deep breath...)...
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:34 AM   #147
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Re: Aiki and Ground Techniques

Speaking of DeLucia, a lot of sport/entertainment fans refer to him as the kung fu person who lost to Gracie. And since 1993 to the present day they use it to basically say 'BJJ is better than kung fu'.

However, lets look at DeLucia and Gracie;s records:

Gracie: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...p?fighterID=19

13 - 3 - 3, with family running the show, and some cans.

DeLucia: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...p?FighterID=22
33 - 20 - 1, on his own, no cans.

DeLucia's record is much more impressive. He has more wins than Gracie has total matches.

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Old 08-07-2006, 01:32 PM   #148
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Justin, what is your point in bring up DeLucia's and Gracie's records? How does this contribute to the discussion concerning aikido on the ground?

While BJJ does involve extensive ground work, it does not own the corner on the market on ground fighting, especially in today's world. Not sure why people automatically hear the word "ground" and automatically say BJJ?

Your supposed to be a statistician right? what is correalation are you trying to draw between Gracies record and DeLucia's record?

If there is any correalation at all, I think you will find that Gracie beat DeLucia and many others early on. Royce is now in his late 30's and MMA has evolved to where anybody involved in the sport now does ground fighting to some degree. Hence he will lose more often today because the playing field is more even, and he is older.

Jason has adapted his fighting skills since then to include extensive ground fighting from observing his fighting, talking to him here on aikiweb, and observing his training videos.

I agree his record is impressive for a MMA record. Nothing to sneeze at.

However, if you are applying logic to this, it would be that in MMA fighters have discovered that ground fighting skills matter and they have adopted them.

If you had any inkling or concept of reality concerning fighting and what really happens in real life in a empty hand violent situation, you would not even begin to be concern with the statistics or the probability of ground fighting....you would accept it as a reality, train in those skills, and move on.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 08-07-2006 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 08-07-2006, 11:53 PM   #149
Zeb Leonard
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

so er, I don't see what prevents people who are still fit from ceasing to theorise and having a bit of a wrestle, aside from having to adopt the role of a complete beginer again.
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Old 08-08-2006, 12:06 AM   #150
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Zeb Leonard wrote:
so er, I don't see what prevents people who are still fit from ceasing to theorise and having a bit of a wrestle, aside from having to adopt the role of a complete beginer again.
there ya have it.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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