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Old 08-01-2006, 11:41 PM   #101
ksy
Join Date: May 2006
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I have not called anybody names or attacked the person rather than the argument. I'd be happy to start if that's your preferred method....
start? thought we'd ended. thanks, man. but i'll let this one go if you don't mind. cheers!
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:45 PM   #102
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

*waits for someone more interesting to show up*

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:26 AM   #103
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

GRAVITY (TM)! People, think GRAVITY (TM)!

To be fair to the nay-sayers, Ground Grappling DOES NOT WORK in:
1) SPACE where there is an absent of gravity;
2) Uke/Opponent/Assailant is a invertebrae alien life form;
3) Uke/Opponent/Assailant is holding a scimitar, glaive or Anti-Matter Cold Fusion Laser Gun.

OK, I go to play with my Cold Fusion grenade now.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:45 PM   #104
David Orange
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Ken,

Your posts on the internet are almost as delightful as talking with you in person. In Post #52, you illustrate something that Minoru Mochizuki Sensei always said: "Truth can only be built on truth."

What remnds me of this is your reply to the fellow who asked: "what happens when you meet a guy who tries to sit on your chest and pound your head in?"

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote:
... you do anything you can. Break one of the elbows. Hold onto the striking arm so that the attacker lifts you up with his back draw of the arm. Claw out his eyes. Strike to his throat. Strike to his nose. Break his kneck....I'd try to kill him, anyway I could. If I had keys in my pocket, my hands would be free to go there. I might get hurt bad, but he'd die.
The "truth" that your statement illustrates is that, no matter what philosophy or moral principles we expound, humans will infallibly revert to utter savagery when the chips are really down.

You seem upset that so many people want to explore what they could do to defend themselves if taken to the ground, but your comments make it clear that you have thought a lot about it. My question is why you don't get someone to let you test out your ideas on them. That way you would know better than to try certain things in a real life-and-death struggle. For instance, if the man is on top of you, and you can get your hand into your pocket and get your keys, all you can do with them is jab him in the lower back, which may hurt, but will not "kill" him. If your hands can reach the front of his body, they can't reach your pockets, so that idea would prove useless.

And proof is what we really want, isn't it? Mochizuki Sensei was an uchi deshi to Ueshiba O Sensei but he was also a big fan of grappling on the ground. Under his supervision I did get to test out many ideas and find out what really works and what does not. I'd be glad to work with you any time to let you try out any of your above-mentioned ideas to see how well they would work in that situation. After all, that's the basis of rationality, isn't it? To weigh things and find out their relative values?

Generally, aikido is considered to be a grappling art, rather than a striking art, though it does contain several specific and thousands of potential atemi waza. So what's the difference between doing a standing sankyo by locking the opponent's elbow under your armpit and doing the same lock by straddling his arm with a leg or lying beside him on the ground? The techniques are virtually the same in many cases, but the milleu of the ground fight changes a lot of elements. To someone with no real experience doing aikido on the ground, the difference can be crucial, even fatal. I submit that if someone can get past your best aikido and get you on the ground, ad hoc flailing, eye clawing and throat striking will only make him angrier at you and increase the brutal beating you will surely receive.

You may not remember the way American martial arts were before the UFC began. I was uchi deshi in Japan at that time and everyone there was astounded at the Gracies' cajones to make the challlenge they did: $50,000 to anyone who could beat them with any art. Back then, karate men and judo men both claimed they could beat each other. Kung fu men, ninjas, jujutsuka, all thought they could beat all the others, but NO ONE really tried it out for real. The Gracies broke that barrier wide open and changed the way Americans (and the Japanese) looked at their traditions of training. In fact, what the Gracies were doing is exactly the kind of thing that was common in Japanese arts 100 years ago. By the 1990s, the arts had become to calcified in post-war tradition that no one could imagine a bloody contest to find out which art was best. But that's exactly what they used to do in Japan.

What was fascinating in the early UFC fights was seeing the shock on martial artists' faces when they felt the reality of a severe fight. Experienced black belts would toss out all their claimed moral principles, chivalry and technique after a couple of minutes of fruitless fighting. When they realized they were in real trouble, the truly savage side of human nature infallibly emerged. One thing I'll never forget was one guy desperately slamming full-force punches into another guy's open groin, several times.

The other fascinating thing about these fights was seeing how far an individual had to go before that desperate savagery was revealed. In short, the more severe a person's training has been, the further he can go without getting desperate, losing his cool and reverting to frantic efforts actually to kill the opponent. People like Royce Gracie, with both tough conditioning and ground fighting experience, remained cool, collected and strategically oriented to the very end. Talking about someone ending up dead, when Royce fought the huge, muscular Kimo, he was pummeled black and blue. It seemed that he had lost for sure, but he somehow endured until he could get Kimo face down on the mat, got on top of Kimo's back and choked him out. Royce had to be helped off the mat, black and blue. Kimo had not a mark on him, but he would have been dead if the fight had not ended. And Royce never displayed the savagery of desperation in the entire fight.

I have never trained in BJJ and don't intend to, but I have done a lot of ground fighting. Mochizuki Sensei just considered it all a unified field of techniques. If nage failed to effect a clean aikido throw in the first instant of an attack, uke would almost always take him to the ground, where they grappled until one or the other submitted to a joint lock or choke. And if you've never experienced that, you won't believe how exhausted you can become and how quickly it can happen. If we faced a series of five ukes in a round of randori, we would likely go to the ground three or four times in that round. However, because of the sharp conditioning from that kind of training, major injuries were very rare.

[quote Ken McGrew]...people come on to this Aikido focussed community and insist that their sport, bjj, is the superior, if not the only, valid martial art.[/quote]

Ken, the first poster said nothing about BJJ. He was an aikijujutsu man (Daito Ryu) and he simply said,

"Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
"If not, Why?
"If so, what do you do about this?
"Does Aikido provide any tools for this situation, or do you look to other arts for the answer to this situation?
"If Aikido provides those tools, please explain."

Many people did suggest that some experience in BJJ could only be helpful. I would say that whether it's BJJ, yoseikan budo or some traditional form of jujutsu or judo, grappling experience can only help. At the least, it can save us from finding ourselves suddenly shocked by reality and having to "claw" at someone's eyes in desperation. The fact is, as other people have pointed out, most of those responses are pure fantasy and would prove pointless in a real fight.

Besides, wearing skirts so much, we have a weak enough reputation without resorting to clawing people's eyes.

If you decide you'd like to work on some ground fighting methods in complete safety, you know where to find me. Call on me any time.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:03 AM   #105
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Great post David. Very well stated.
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Old 08-03-2006, 02:07 AM   #106
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Hear Hear.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:32 AM   #107
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.


Speaking of love and harmony, O'sensei seems to be very loving and harmony with this uke of his.

The above technique seems to be kata-gamate.


Is this technique also part of Daito-ryu syllabus or is it something O'sensei pick up from his judo studies during his boyhood time?

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 08-03-2006, 06:47 AM   #108
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Ken,

Your posts on the internet are almost as delightful as talking with you in person. In Post #52, you illustrate something that Minoru Mochizuki Sensei always said: "Truth can only be built on truth."

What remnds me of this is your reply to the fellow who asked: "what happens when you meet a guy who tries to sit on your chest and pound your head in?"



The "truth" that your statement illustrates is that, no matter what philosophy or moral principles we expound, humans will infallibly revert to utter savagery when the chips are really down.

You seem upset that so many people want to explore what they could do to defend themselves if taken to the ground, but your comments make it clear that you have thought a lot about it. My question is why you don't get someone to let you test out your ideas on them. That way you would know better than to try certain things in a real life-and-death struggle. For instance, if the man is on top of you, and you can get your hand into your pocket and get your keys, all you can do with them is jab him in the lower back, which may hurt, but will not "kill" him. If your hands can reach the front of his body, they can't reach your pockets, so that idea would prove useless.

And proof is what we really want, isn't it? Mochizuki Sensei was an uchi deshi to Ueshiba O Sensei but he was also a big fan of grappling on the ground. Under his supervision I did get to test out many ideas and find out what really works and what does not. I'd be glad to work with you any time to let you try out any of your above-mentioned ideas to see how well they would work in that situation. After all, that's the basis of rationality, isn't it? To weigh things and find out their relative values?

Generally, aikido is considered to be a grappling art, rather than a striking art, though it does contain several specific and thousands of potential atemi waza. So what's the difference between doing a standing sankyo by locking the opponent's elbow under your armpit and doing the same lock by straddling his arm with a leg or lying beside him on the ground? The techniques are virtually the same in many cases, but the milleu of the ground fight changes a lot of elements. To someone with no real experience doing aikido on the ground, the difference can be crucial, even fatal. I submit that if someone can get past your best aikido and get you on the ground, ad hoc flailing, eye clawing and throat striking will only make him angrier at you and increase the brutal beating you will surely receive.

You may not remember the way American martial arts were before the UFC began. I was uchi deshi in Japan at that time and everyone there was astounded at the Gracies' cajones to make the challlenge they did: $50,000 to anyone who could beat them with any art. Back then, karate men and judo men both claimed they could beat each other. Kung fu men, ninjas, jujutsuka, all thought they could beat all the others, but NO ONE really tried it out for real. The Gracies broke that barrier wide open and changed the way Americans (and the Japanese) looked at their traditions of training. In fact, what the Gracies were doing is exactly the kind of thing that was common in Japanese arts 100 years ago. By the 1990s, the arts had become to calcified in post-war tradition that no one could imagine a bloody contest to find out which art was best. But that's exactly what they used to do in Japan.

What was fascinating in the early UFC fights was seeing the shock on martial artists' faces when they felt the reality of a severe fight. Experienced black belts would toss out all their claimed moral principles, chivalry and technique after a couple of minutes of fruitless fighting. When they realized they were in real trouble, the truly savage side of human nature infallibly emerged. One thing I'll never forget was one guy desperately slamming full-force punches into another guy's open groin, several times.

The other fascinating thing about these fights was seeing how far an individual had to go before that desperate savagery was revealed. In short, the more severe a person's training has been, the further he can go without getting desperate, losing his cool and reverting to frantic efforts actually to kill the opponent. People like Royce Gracie, with both tough conditioning and ground fighting experience, remained cool, collected and strategically oriented to the very end. Talking about someone ending up dead, when Royce fought the huge, muscular Kimo, he was pummeled black and blue. It seemed that he had lost for sure, but he somehow endured until he could get Kimo face down on the mat, got on top of Kimo's back and choked him out. Royce had to be helped off the mat, black and blue. Kimo had not a mark on him, but he would have been dead if the fight had not ended. And Royce never displayed the savagery of desperation in the entire fight.

I have never trained in BJJ and don't intend to, but I have done a lot of ground fighting. Mochizuki Sensei just considered it all a unified field of techniques. If nage failed to effect a clean aikido throw in the first instant of an attack, uke would almost always take him to the ground, where they grappled until one or the other submitted to a joint lock or choke. And if you've never experienced that, you won't believe how exhausted you can become and how quickly it can happen. If we faced a series of five ukes in a round of randori, we would likely go to the ground three or four times in that round. However, because of the sharp conditioning from that kind of training, major injuries were very rare.



Ken, the first poster said nothing about BJJ. He was an aikijujutsu man (Daito Ryu) and he simply said,

"Do you ever think (being an Aikidoka) that you might (in a self defense situation) end up fighting on the ground?
"If not, Why?
"If so, what do you do about this?
"Does Aikido provide any tools for this situation, or do you look to other arts for the answer to this situation?
"If Aikido provides those tools, please explain."

Many people did suggest that some experience in BJJ could only be helpful. I would say that whether it's BJJ, yoseikan budo or some traditional form of jujutsu or judo, grappling experience can only help. At the least, it can save us from finding ourselves suddenly shocked by reality and having to "claw" at someone's eyes in desperation. The fact is, as other people have pointed out, most of those responses are pure fantasy and would prove pointless in a real fight.

Besides, wearing skirts so much, we have a weak enough reputation without resorting to clawing people's eyes.

If you decide you'd like to work on some ground fighting methods in complete safety, you know where to find me. Call on me any time.

Best wishes.

David

I only disagree with one thing. Royce did indeed use savage attacks on kimo. He struck his groin repeatedly trying to take him down and used his hair as a method of keeping kimo on the ground. He was not as savage as others, but he had no problems using any 'legal' technique to his advantage.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:13 AM   #109
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Hi Boon,

I have trained waza like that in Daito ryu. Even versions of hadaka jime. With 'hooks' as well. Very nice picture by the way...was that from the Noma Dojo period?

Very nice post David. I sometimes wish yoshinkan training would include the training for jiyu waza that you mentioned.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-03-2006, 08:58 AM   #110
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Usually when I see a topic of ground fighting come up, someone invariably invokes two things: BJJ and 85-95% of all fights end up on the ground. And BJJ people love to quote that statistic. I've even heard Aikido people use it.

Okay, for all those people who have some time and effort. Show me the research for those statistics. Show me where those numbers come from. I'll call anyone to support that theory. Go ahead. Try.

You'll never find it. It's the largest, hugest, single most erroneous Internet Urban Myth out there. It's propogated perpetually until everyone who doesn't have a brain thinks it's true. There is hope. If you have a brain, start using it and get out of the urban myth ring.

What you'll find if you dig hard enough is a study done by LAPD. In fact, read some about it here (I've done part of the work for you):
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/arc...p/t-11547.html

I really loved this part:
"6.8% Subject assumed a fighting, martial arts, or boxing stance but did not attack the officer; themost frequent second act was teh offier striking the subject with the baton (38%) and this was also the most frequent final act (41%)"

No going to the ground at all.

But the real facts are that this is a "STUDY" done between Law Enforcement officers and suspects. First, it's a study. Not major research. Second, it involves Law Enforcement which has different rules of procedure than all us ordinary people. (Not to mention that the study doesn't show how many officers were involved in each incident. So, if the average was 2-3, then going by all those BJJ people, we should study multiple grappling do where 2-3 people gang up on 1 person because in 95% of fights, 2-3 people take one person down on the ground. Silly sounding isn't it?)

Check out the five scenarios and their final action:

1. only 46% ground
2. 35%
3. 36.5%
4. 40% (subject running away -- can you say tackle?)
5. 0%

In only 1 of those did the ground ever come into play as a first based action by an officer. And that was tackling a suspect running away. As civilians, we won't do that. Remove that from the criteria. You have to remove #1 too because as civilians, we won't grab and try to subdue. That's called "assault" in the legal world. Again, remove #3 for same reasons. That leaves you with only 1 incident out of 5 that might, in someone's wild world of imagination, be applied to ordinary citizens. Still that's an initial 25% chance with only 36% of that going to ground. Very slim, don't you think?

As for the initial entry, try doing some research. There's a link to a nice article on Ito in the Aikido Journal. Shioda and the fight in China. Mifune and Judo (men twice his size couldn't throw him to the ground). Takeda and his gang fight. While some people's Aikido might not work or provide tools, other people's Aikido does.

The moral of this: Don't listen to hype, quite wasting energy blathering on about adding some outside "value" to your training and instead use it to train more. If you like BJJ, train in it. If you like Aikido, train in it. If you like both, do both. You won't hear me say one is better than the other. To paraphrase my sensei, the best martial art is the one you love and are good at.

Mark
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:29 AM   #111
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
In only 1 of those did the ground ever come into play as a first based action by an officer. And that was tackling a suspect running away. As civilians, we won't do that. Remove that from the criteria. You have to remove #1 too because as civilians, we won't grab and try to subdue. That's called "assault" in the legal world. Again, remove #3 for same reasons. That leaves you with only 1 incident out of 5 that might, in someone's wild world of imagination, be applied to ordinary citizens. Still that's an initial 25% chance with only 36% of that going to ground. Very slim, don't you think?
I have to disagree with your reasoning. The whole act of starting a fight means your oppoent is not a normal civilian. He is already commiting assault, thus if you run, he might tackle you. If you stay he might grapple you, at this point grappling might not be to subdue, it might be to throw you to the ground so he can have a better vantage for him and his friends to beat you.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:37 AM   #112
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Usually when I see a topic of ground fighting come up, someone invariably invokes two things: BJJ and 85-95% of all fights end up on the ground. And BJJ people love to quote that statistic. I've even heard Aikido people use it.

Okay, for all those people who have some time and effort. Show me the research for those statistics. Show me where those numbers come from. I'll call anyone to support that theory. Go ahead. Try.

You'll never find it. It's the largest, hugest, single most erroneous Internet Urban Myth out there. It's propogated perpetually until everyone who doesn't have a brain thinks it's true. There is hope. If you have a brain, start using it and get out of the urban myth ring.

What you'll find if you dig hard enough is a study done by LAPD. In fact, read some about it here (I've done part of the work for you):
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/arc...p/t-11547.html

I really loved this part:
"6.8% Subject assumed a fighting, martial arts, or boxing stance but did not attack the officer; themost frequent second act was teh offier striking the subject with the baton (38%) and this was also the most frequent final act (41%)"

No going to the ground at all.

But the real facts are that this is a "STUDY" done between Law Enforcement officers and suspects. First, it's a study. Not major research. Second, it involves Law Enforcement which has different rules of procedure than all us ordinary people. (Not to mention that the study doesn't show how many officers were involved in each incident. So, if the average was 2-3, then going by all those BJJ people, we should study multiple grappling do where 2-3 people gang up on 1 person because in 95% of fights, 2-3 people take one person down on the ground. Silly sounding isn't it?)

Check out the five scenarios and their final action:

1. only 46% ground
2. 35%
3. 36.5%
4. 40% (subject running away -- can you say tackle?)
5. 0%

In only 1 of those did the ground ever come into play as a first based action by an officer. And that was tackling a suspect running away. As civilians, we won't do that. Remove that from the criteria. You have to remove #1 too because as civilians, we won't grab and try to subdue. That's called "assault" in the legal world. Again, remove #3 for same reasons. That leaves you with only 1 incident out of 5 that might, in someone's wild world of imagination, be applied to ordinary citizens. Still that's an initial 25% chance with only 36% of that going to ground. Very slim, don't you think?

As for the initial entry, try doing some research. There's a link to a nice article on Ito in the Aikido Journal. Shioda and the fight in China. Mifune and Judo (men twice his size couldn't throw him to the ground). Takeda and his gang fight. While some people's Aikido might not work or provide tools, other people's Aikido does.

The moral of this: Don't listen to hype, quite wasting energy blathering on about adding some outside "value" to your training and instead use it to train more. If you like BJJ, train in it. If you like Aikido, train in it. If you like both, do both. You won't hear me say one is better than the other. To paraphrase my sensei, the best martial art is the one you love and are good at.

Mark
Mark,
That was wonderful post. I will try to refrain from too much enthusiasm lest I come out sounding like our local BJJ backslapping and bless me club!

The best thing you said was the one intangible that these guys always leave out. It is that " While some people's Aikido might not work or provide tools, other people's Aikido does. " We've always done pins and work like that in the picture and it's a core part of our Aikido but I agree with you that regardless of that we should stop" listening to hype, ... wasting energy blathering on about adding some outside "value" to your training ".
These guys try to keep the subject up at all times and won't let it die. It doesn't matter who asks, the answer is always " take BJJ."
Thanks for the blast of sanity.

Again, to quote,"If you like BJJ, train in it. If you like Aikido, train in it. If you like both, do both. You won't hear me say one is better than the other. To paraphrase my sensei, the best martial art is the one you love and are good at.


Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:53 AM   #113
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I have to disagree with your reasoning. The whole act of starting a fight means your oppoent is not a normal civilian. He is already commiting assault, thus if you run, he might tackle you. If you stay he might grapple you, at this point grappling might not be to subdue, it might be to throw you to the ground so he can have a better vantage for him and his friends to beat you.
Don,
Read the study. We are not talking about a suspect tackling *you*. The study dealt with a LEO tackling the *suspect*. Hence, we can't use that statistic because as normal citizens, we aren't going to do that. My logic/reasoning is still there, especially for those people that love to quote that statistic.

However, (you knew there'd be one, right?), I do agree with your example in that you might get tackled when you run away from an attacker. It's a strong possibility. No disagreements there at all. But, then, you also have to realize that you took the "game" from being a "fight" to a "flight" arena. That has both pro and con to it and wasn't part of this discussion.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:14 AM   #114
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I'd like to point out that I dont belive 90% of all fights go to the ground. I do belive that when someone wants to take a fight to the ground, it will go there. And I also believe that the ground is the single most dangerous place you can be in a fight. This is why I advocate learning how to deal with being on the ground. I dont care if you learn judo, bjj, daito ryu, aikido, karate, etc. If your concern is self defense, you need to spend some time developing solid skills to at least learn how to get back to your feet. I have never told anyone they need to add bjj to their training, I've simply stated they need to make sure they are concidering, developing, or training to deal with being on the ground. This training could be as simple as learning how to shrimp crawl and get guard so you can limit the damage. It could be as complex as omaplat's, armbars, and chokes. It could just be learning how to stand up safely. But it's important to not dismiss a range of fighting.

I understand your reasoning now mark, and I'd have to say that based on what I read in that survey you can't use those statisics at all for what happens in a street fight. They are simply unrelated.

Most people claim it is not worth their time to train ground fighting because of the rarity of ground fighting. However, think of the techniques you do train that are so low percentage in their use. Most martial artists waste a lot of time learning complex techniques that take months to pull off with a compliant attacker. How would taking a month and learning some basic position on the ground and how to safely get back up be any worse? Daito ryu has ground techniques (or so someone said in this post), so I'd suggest taking those techniques learning them, testing them and modifying them to fit with your belieif system. I'd suggest learning how to defend strikes on the ground, make space to move your hips, and stand up safely. These skills wont stop a bjj attacker who has decided to break your joints or choke you, but they will stop a 'common' agressor who only wants to sit on you while he or he and his buddys attack you with strikes. This is a very common type of attack. Take the guy down, sit on his chest and punch him. And if you have buddys they can be soccer kicking him in the head to speed up the process. Its a safe attack for the attacker, even if you have friends he is sitting on you and hitt you. So if your buddys come to your aid, he can simply stand back up. On the bottom however is extreamly dangerious becuase you do not have that option of standing back up. This is why learning how to defend strikes (fight for overhooks, sweeps, whatever) is very important, this is also why learning how to make space and get out of that position is very important (especially learning how to do this without exposing the back of your skull). After that you have to worry that he gets up before you, or his buddys are there to kick you in the face as you stand up. So learning how to properly stand up is important. Learning how to submit an attacker on the ground, or take someone down with a single leg, not so important.

Another strategy for working out a solid ground defense would be to learn to defend simple take downs. You have 3 categorys of take downs to worry about.

1) football rush - guy gets angry runs at you and trys to pick you up and slam you, this should be of no problem for any aikidoka. I mean you have a guy running at you. This should be just as good as dealing with a haymaker.
2) Wrestling style takedowns - single and double leg take downs, etc - These usually happen at close quarters, aikido's first strenght is attempting to keep good maai to prevent these kind of takedowns. Failing that learning a sprawl will stop most of these takedowns except by high skilled wrestlers. Uke shoots, you sprawl, cross face/wizzer, and push uke away to regain proper maai.
3) Judo style takedowns. - These takedowns require grips and clinching hip throws, some types of single/double legs, shoulder throws, etc all fall into this category. Aikido should be able to deal with these by working with dealing with the clinch and grab. There are a lot of aikido techniques that would lend themselves well to a clinch or grab. I would suggest simply training with someone trying to clinch and throw you. Have uke attempt to clinch and throw you with a hip throw, you defend with whatever you want to defend with. Wash rinse and repeat.

Again I'm not suggesting you start learning bjj and head out to every NAGA competition that comes your way. I'm suggesting you develop strategys within your own art to deal with attackers of all shapes, sizes, and skill levels. And with the 3 ranges of combat striking, clinch, ground. You need to know what to do when that guy tries to knock your block off. You need to know what to do when his punching fails and he grabs onto you for support and tries to choke, knee, or elbow you. And you need to know what to do if he happens to drag you down to the ground.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:50 PM   #115
jonreading
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

In response to earlier posts concerning the application of Daito Ryu ground technique, I can affirm that there is significant groundwork. Many Daito Ryu instructors have been asked to share their experience in aikido forums such as demonstrations and seminars. Their techniques are impressive. Of course, that is Daito Ryu, not aikido. Aikido instructors phased out much of the ground work that was originally included in early aikido. This decision was made over many years and almost certainly was not made because instructors felt ground technique was unimportant to fighting, but rather other techniues were more important to the study of aikido.

Groundwork is a necessary education to effective combat and fighting. Just because groundwork may be excluded from contemporary aikido curriculum does not discredit its validity or importance to fighting. Hold you head high and say, "I respect groundwork. In my aikido I do not train in groundwork, but I appreciate its skill and range of opportunity." If you are one of the lucky few that trains in groundwork as part of your aikido, great.

Aikido is not any other martial art. Do not bastardize aikido by including that which is not aikido. Understand both the advantages and disadvantages of the aikido. Do not judge aikido for what it clearly does not do, nor for what is aspires to do. Advocate the art for its strenghths, but do not veil its weaknesses either.

My first real pocket knife was a swiss army multi-tool pocket knife. While fishing, my grandfather asked me to whittle a frog spear for him. My knife had all sorts of great tools including a scaler, and a corkscrew, and a can opener, but the kinfe blade was rather dull and small. After looking at me for a minute, he pulled out his pocket knife (an old texas toothpick) and gave it to me. He said, "Jon, it doesn't matter how fancy the tool is, it's worthless if it isn't useful. He was a mason and I still have some of the carpentry tools he left me that were his father's - they are almost a century old and still useful.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:56 PM   #116
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

100% of fights that end up on the ground are ground fights. It doesn't matter what the statistics say about the odds of ending up on the ground are if you are in the one fight that ends up on the ground. It is as simple as that.

If you are using statistics as rationale, then why bother studying martial arts at all since statistically most of us have a very small chance of ever really being in a truely violent encounter.

On that rationale we should just study budo and be happy with what we learn from the lessons of budo.

For me, I will study ground fighting because I have been in more than a few altercations, and all mine ended up with a fixed location a table, couch, wall, or the ground as the thing that stopped the momentum of the fight. it ain't all about the ground.
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:08 PM   #117
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Mark that was a nice debunking of a myth. But I don't think anyone was using that particular stat and in fact we'd already covered off that it was from a LEO study, that the figure had been inflated and that it wasn't particularly relevent.
This is what I mean by people debating the argment they are expecting to see rather than the one that they are. I don't think I've seen anyone seriously use the 90% stat for some time - it's been pretty well debunked for a few years.

Jorge, the answer is not always BJJ. I've already explicitly pointed that out. I year or so ago I had a pretty robust debate with some of the guys on RMA about the same issue (I wasn't pushing BJJ, they were). Sometimes it's judo, sometimes it's Muay Thai sometimes it's Aikido. It depends on the question. But when the question involves the key components of self defence and ground fighting then yeah, BJJ is likely to figure in the answer. Help me to understand why that bothers you so much, it just seems logical to many of us.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
This training could be as simple as learning how to shrimp crawl and get guard so you can limit the damage
Don I would add to that a sweep or two and upa for an absolute minimum. You can teach all this in *one* long class/seminar. Sure it would then take some practice to internalise but you're right, it's not like we're reccomending someone go on a 10 year pigrimaage to get these skills.

Nice post Jon

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Old 08-03-2006, 01:34 PM   #118
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:

For me, I will study ground fighting because I have been in more than a few altercations, and all mine ended up with a fixed location a table, couch, wall, or the ground as the thing that stopped the momentum of the fight. it ain't all about the ground.
Good point. My Coach John Will has been doing some stuff around adapting BJJ techniques to work with uke pressed up against a wall rather than the ground. It's an interesting area.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-03-2006, 02:44 PM   #119
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
In fact, I have never been attacked by another martial artist at all.
This little detail is frequently forgotten in these kinds of discussions.

This kid challenged me on the street the other day.

Him - "Are you a black belt?"

(Well, I was wearing my gi and belt, carrying my hakama, walking from a demonstration back to the dojo..)

Me - "Yes."

Him - "I can beat you."

I just smiled. I knew he couldn't and had no training to speak of. I knew this because if he had had any training this conversation would never have happened.

I did keep an eye on him though. He struck me as potentially stupid enough to try to jump me from behind.

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Old 08-03-2006, 03:03 PM   #120
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Jorge Garcia wrote:
>In fact, I have never been attacked by another martial artist at all.

I have. Some of the results have been ... amusing. Next time I ge tto Texas, ask me about the presur point guys I've played with.

Some were educational. Actually, I've learned more about self defense from my experiences with folks who were NOT 'martial artists' but who were simply brawlers, street punks or, more trenchantly, opposing soldiers.

Budo ain't about self defense.

Seriously.

Budo can teach you THINGS relating TO self defense, but budo ain't about self defense.

I've studied and taught budo and I've studied and taught combatives. Apples and oranges.

I love the study and practice of budo. I'm not fond of the study and practice of combatives. Why? Because (first) I ain't a samurai and never will be, but studying the martial traditions of that culture amuse, confound, interest and amaze me; and (second) I've been there, done that and got the scars.

Ain't no pacifist like an old soldier.

You stop laughing Monkeyboy. I'll bring my broken up old corpus over there and kick your ass.

My budo has informed my combatives ... deeply. And my combatives practicals have informed my budo.

But they ain't the same thing,

If you're in a budo dojo (that's sort of a redundancy isn't it?) to learn practical combatives, you MIGHT be in the wrong place.

But that's IMNSHO. YMMV, as always.

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Old 08-03-2006, 03:06 PM   #121
Jorge Garcia
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Confused Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
If you are using statistics as rationale, then why bother studying martial arts at all since statistically most of us have a very small chance of ever really being in a truely violent encounter.
On that rationale we should just study budo and be happy with what we learn from the lessons of budo.
Great post Kevin! Wait a minute! Was that me saying that!
Anyway, I can finally say, I agree with you! That has been my point. I say - love Aikido, train hard in Aikido, stay out of trouble and forget about personal invincibility.
Same answer for Michael.
Best wishes,

Last edited by Jorge Garcia : 08-03-2006 at 03:09 PM.

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Old 08-03-2006, 03:33 PM   #122
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I have never really disagreed with you fundamentally Jorge!

Like my good friend Chuck states above, budo ain't necessarily combatives. There are some crossovers for sure, but the basic goals and objectives focus on different aspects.

It is kinda of ironic, to be good at combatives, I think you must be good at the principles in budo (regardless if you call it budo or not). But to practice budo, I don't believe you need to be good at combatives!

Jorge, I love aikido too! I love it for what it is, not for what many of us try to make it, or project on it.

Chuck, I think we were at each others offices the other day without knowing it. I stopped by your office to say hi, and Mindy said you were at Hohenfels. When I got back to Hohenfels, LTC Jackson said that PAO was down from Graf doing an story on our engineers! Sorry I missed you!
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:00 PM   #123
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Thanks Kevin.
It's nice to be on the same side.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:29 PM   #124
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Great post Mark, I enjoyed reading it.

I believe the martial artist Loren Christensen was also a police officer for about 25 years in Portland, OR, and mentions that % of fights going to the ground was very rare in his experience.

I think it is sensible that many fights go on the ground, but appealing to sports/entertainment (where the ground is really a cushy pad or canvas, guaranteed 1:1 situation, no weapons, and on and on) like many do is not too convincing support.

Not to mention, 'going to the ground' can also mean you, the defender, knocking or throwing your attacker to the ground, which obviously isn't 'going to the ground' as many ground-fighting proponents mean when they say 'going to the ground' (where they generally imply that the attacker takes you to the ground).

Not to mention, going to the ground is a bad thing to do when weapons are involved, and definitely the worst thing to do when multiple attackers are involved.


Justin

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Old 08-03-2006, 06:10 PM   #125
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Again, no one on this thread has argued that going to ground intentionally is to be reccommended - so who are you arguing against?
So Jorge - you're saying ignore the self defence aspect and whether ground is important to it. I agree - self defence is not the reason to do aikido - there are many better reasons. So we agree on this. It didn't stop me from answer the OP's question though, so what was the problem you had with the respnse? Or are we agreeing now?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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