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Old 07-25-2006, 01:46 PM   #76
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Good Post Don. Also Michael...hang in there!

Wanna see why ground work is important. Invite me, Dan , Michael or any number of people to your dojo, and when we stop the politeness of uke and nage and "get real" so to speak, you will see very quickly why it is important to at least have the fundamentals of ground work.

It is out of shear ignorance of "real fighting" that cause someone to dismiss ground fighting. The basic principle of combat or fighting is that your opponent must "fix" you in order to "finish" you. To fix you, he must off balance you, then take you against a wall or the floor to make something "stick". It really is that simple.

Go ahead, live in your pretend iriminage world. I really hope you have the foresight, intuition, and ability to time everything properly and irimi/tenkan correctly, deflect your opponents balance, weight, and intent. However, when that does not work, and he fixes you with a dominate position, hopefully you have a modicum of skill to do something about it.

I am only talking about one attacker where the odds are fairly even. Lets not even get into multiple opponent situations! or weapons!

Budo is a wonderful practice! Don't confuse what you practice as being able to be directly translated to reality.

I am not a BJJ nut. In fact, I have only been studying it for the last two years. That was after being dominated in Army training scenarios by realitively unskilled opponents in urban warfare training with all my years of traditional martial arts and aikido training. I am not talking sport jiujitsu, but a big dude coming at you with the intent to dominate and render you useless.

Guess what? The stuff I learned in BJJ works.

I am not saying you have to learn how to do the perfect triangle choke, or be able to do 100 different reversals. But it is important to be able to keep yourself from being hit and rendered unconscious by properly clinching. Being able to reverse and take your opponent down to the ground and dominating him and being able to escape. And being able to defend in the guard and the mout. Really basic, basic skills. You don't need to study full time BJJ to learn this stuff.

I cannot understand why anyone would want to ignore the most common things in fighting! WHY? Please explain??

If you are only here to study budo and be aikidoka or budoka, super, I have the most respect for you and your pursuits! It is 70% or so of why I study martial arrts. However, don't dismiss combative skills as being unnecessary to learn! If it is not something you feel is important...no problem.

I tend to agree with Don on Weapons. I have found little that is effective against them from an empty hand perspective, especially guns and knives. You know, if it is your time to die....well I am a firm believer that their is probably not much you can do about it...but be a good budoka and have lived a good life and be prepared to die. Ironically I think this is probably what is most important in why we need to study budo.

Timing, initiative, dominance, advantage, and element of suprise are really most of the important things in a fight. Martial skill is a factor, but to be honest, not a very big factor if someone really intends to kill or seriously hurt you.
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:00 PM   #77
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Interesting Don. Most of the initial responses to the OP were quite balanced. Boon, Chris, several people in fact, stated quite reasonable opinions. I'd like to think that mine was one. Yet here you are chattering on about 'your mission'. Hmmm.

Somehow, it just doesn't float. Again, I ask, isn't it enough that you are honest with yourself?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:05 PM   #78
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote:
....

Below are three quotes from this thread and my responses:

[QUOTE: To say, "We are for multiple attackers and weapons, we dont deal with one guy trying to sit on your chest and pound your head in", is fine, but what happens when you meet a guy who tries to sit on your chest and pound your head in?]

If we are ranking martial arts, then the ability to move away from danger and deal with multiple attackers, run away if possible, would make Aikido rank pretty well. But to answer this question, you do anything you can. Break one of the elbows. Hold onto the striking arm so that the attacker lifts you up with his back draw of the arm. Claw out his eyes. Strike to his throat. Strike to his nose. Break his kneck. Granted, this is a bad place to be. At this point, I'd try to kill him, anyway I could. If I had keys in my pocket, my hands would be free to go there. I might get hurt bad, but he'd die.

....

Ken McGrew
I missed this the first time somehow. This is a fine statement to the falsehoods I mentioned in my previous post. In this case this is a person inexperianced with ground fighting making assumptions with no idea what happens on the ground. Rather then simply saying he is not prepared, he mentioned explict techniques. Granted he does say do whatever you can, which basically makes the assumption he will be out of control and flailing (not a good defense). The rest of his suggestions show he is unfamiliar with ground positioning, and has never tried to defend himself on the ground. Anyone who has spent time on the ground would know a few simple things.

1) If a person is sitting on your chest, you will not be able to reach your pockets.
2) The reason a person wants to sit on your chest is because this position is superior. He will be able to hit you without you being able to effectively hit him. It is almost impossible unless the person on top is an idiot for you to reach, let alone strike his eyes, face, nose, ears, throat, etc.
3) Grabbing the attackers arm in no way will lift you up. He is sitting on your chest, you just simply do not bend that way.
4) Breaking the elbow is also highly unlikely. This is because you have no efficent way to generate power. Plus you have to find a way to get a lock capable of breaking his elbow WHILE he is raining hard blows on your skull.

I'd suggest anyone who thinks they might know what to do when mounted on the ground to try this: Get a partner to put on some hand protection and sit on your chest with good posture and balance. Have him throw moderatly hard blows (they should be fast and hurt). Attempt to defend yourself from his blows. You will quickly find out the thing you need to do is learn how to effectivly use what you do have to escape. Punching from your back, eye gouges, etc, are not what you need to be wasting your time on, if anything most of these dirty techniques favor the guy sitting on your chest. You need to learn how to move your hips properly while defending your head and make the space needed to get in a better position so you can stand back up. To do anything else is just an exercise in how many times the back of your skull can bounce off pavement until you pass out.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:15 PM   #79
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Don,

This also comes to mind from the above quote The ability to disengage and run away from a fight is a good thing, but requires no martial skill or training. How does this as a strategy get linked to aikido?

Personally it is a strategy that I would employ probably first and foremost with all my karate, aikido, and BJJ background! If it is one that will keep me from engaging in a fight of some sort.

Again, it is not something that requires any martial ability whatsoever. Why imply that it is linked to aikido?

I will openly challenge anyone, I mean anyone to let me mount them, have their keys in their pocket (i have nothing) and then say "go". If you can hurt me or kill me in anyway, go fot it. It ain't gonna happen, I'd kill you way, or render you incoherent from the mount way before you could dig them out past my thighs.
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:19 PM   #80
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Interesting Don. Most of the initial responses to the OP were quite balanced. Boon, Chris, several people in fact, stated quite reasonable opinions. I'd like to think that mine was one. Yet here you are chattering on about 'your mission'. Hmmm.

Somehow, it just doesn't float. Again, I ask, isn't it enough that you are honest with yourself?

Best,
Ron
There were a few reasonable opinions. But that doesn't mean there are not unreasonable ones. Again, it is not enough that you be honest with yourself, it should be your duty to stop wrong or improperly informed information from being taken as fact when you see it. I don't seek out forums to troll. I came here for a aikido reason. I stay here because I like the conversation. But if I see something I think is bull, I'm going to call it like I see it. If I am proved wrong I will admit it and grow from the exp.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:27 PM   #81
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
... as an aikidoka. I was disillusioned with my training...This forum helped me make my decision to discontine my aikido training.
Don,
This is the closest to the truth we've gotten so far. Here, we have a disillusioned Aikidoist who has decided to discontinue his training coming over to give Aikido lovers advice. Maybe your sense of mission to come over and convert us to your BJJ point of view was to reinforce your decision to yourself. I appreciate the sense of mission but that's like a convinced Jehova's Witness coming to bother me at my house on Saturday morning to convice me that my religion is wrong. Thanks for the help but no thanks!

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-25-2006, 05:26 PM   #82
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Well, throw me in with Don and Michael as another Aikido student who trained for a long time before semi-retiring from Aikido to train full time in Sambo/ no-gi submission grappling. I still train Aikido a few seminars a year, but that's about it.

Sure, Don might be a bit aggressive in his points, but I don't think he's entirely off base either. There are definitely Aikidoists who completely dismiss groundwork and the clinch. And from what I can tell, neither Don nor Michael are advocating ditching Aikido if you enjoy it. Merely that maybe 6 months of bjj/sambo/wrestling would give one a much more well-rounded skill set in terms of self defense.

For many people, self-defense is not why they train in Aikido, and can justly say "I am not concerned with groundwork/clinching." More power to those people. However, it seems as though a good number of Aikidoists are concerned with self-defense. If they are, why completely ignore a part of fighting that has shown itself to come up time and again?

Me personally, I wasn't in Aikido for self-defense when I quit, I just felt like I had plateau'ed for a while and at the same time I started in Sambo. In Sambo I discovered that 98% of what I learned in Aikido didn't work against someone (the same size as me) who was resistant and had been training in Sambo for half a year. Initially I was frustrated, but once I started learning things it was really fun! Also, I was learning new moves, throws, and positions that I could use against people, even when they didn't want to go along with technique! I was hooked. Been doing it ever since. That being said, I'm still not training for self-defense, I'm training because it's fun!

I think sometimes the whole bjj/mma world can be pretty intimidating to people, especially to Aikidoists. But if you find the right gym, it will be full of cool people who want to help you learn and grow, just like a good Aikido dojo. The difference being that a bjj/mma gym is going to require a much deeper level of commitment much sooner in order to get past the "hazing" period of the first few months.

Last edited by Keith R Lee : 07-25-2006 at 05:33 PM.

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Old 07-25-2006, 06:21 PM   #83
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
I just wish the "you must have ground fighting" crowd and the BJJ group would find those forums and then have a blast saying anything you want to say.
They have found those forums... they've also found that people there don't even believe them.

Mainly due to the fact that they tend to use UFC-ish events as 'evidence' of real life, and ignore multiple attackers and weapons in their ground game.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:24 PM   #84
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
In Sambo I discovered that 98% of what I learned in Aikido didn't work against someone (the same size as me) who was resistant and had been training in Sambo for half a year.
Does that speak of aikido, or of the practicioner's ability?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:30 PM   #85
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I don't know, I had just got my nidan (Yoshinkan) after nearly a year as uchi deshi under a 6th dan. Feel free to make your own interpretation, I know I did.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:41 PM   #86
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
yeah, man. i can just imagine those people who created the daito-ryu fighting systems in a time when mistakes would cost lives doing a checklist on what their particular fighting art is good for.

1. multiple opponents- "check!"
2. single opponents-"check!"
3. against sword attack-"check!"
4. against knife attack-"check!"
5. against horseback rider-"check!"
6. again wrestler, ground fighting- "Nahhh!!! that's never gonna happen!"
there is some evidence there was some ground in daito ryu
http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...ChokePhoto.jpg
No idea how effective it was not having seen it trained but it looks to be something taht was addressed certainly.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 06:54 PM   #87
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Close, except for I came here before I stopped my training. I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm here to discuss viewpoints. My personal 'mission' is simply to not let what I feel to be a falsehood stand without a rebuttle. I guess I got the wrong idea about this site. I thought the purpose of this site was to discuss aikido and how it relates to us and the world. I thought I was doing just that. I have never suggested anyone quit aikido. Not once, not ever. I have suggested people examine their training methods, spar, even look into crosstraining. But not once have I ever said aikido was a bad thing.

I have no need to reinforce my viewpoint. I am confident in it. In fact, this site helped me make it. I dont make choices without much thought and I never regret my choices, even the bad ones.

This thread was about groundfighting. If you notice my first post was on ways a NON ground figther could prepare themselves to have a chance at getting back up from the ground. After that the bull started flinging and people started talking about 90% of all fights going to the ground, and being able to choose where you fought, and deciding you dont want to fight on the ground, and I'm sure someone mentioned aikido is for multiple attackers on a battlefield with swords.

I rarely see anyone question my arguements. I only see them question my purpose. I take that to mean my arguements are sound. I'd also point out I have never once used the UFC as a reason to take bjj. If you want to face it or not, the ground is some place a fight can go, and it is an easy place to go. It doesn't matter if you have 5 on 1, 1 on 1 or 3 on 5. It doesn't matter if there is a knife or a gun. All it takes is for two people to grab on to each other, gravity and struggle take care of the rest.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-25-2006, 07:18 PM   #88
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Great post Don, it's helped me pinpoint why I am finding this discussion so darn frustrating
Quote:
I rarely see anyone question my arguements. I only see them question my purpose.
So let me try (again) to clear up a few things.

1) Talking about "the invasion" of the BJJers as if we came from some external place is a misrepresentation. We were here all along. Before we started BJJ. These are opinions coming from a section of people *within* the Aikido community. Some have stopped actively training Aikido, others have not. But this is were we started, this is where we grew up. Don't insult us by saying we are outsiders because we have a difference of opinion.

2) As Don says - none of us have said Aikido is bad. None of us has suggested *for a second* that anyone should stop doing it. None of us (I don't think) have said that it has no self defence application. If you think we have been attacking Aikido - you should get out more.

3) We've all said there are some very good reasons to do Aikido and that it is a great art. I personally have even stated my beleif that it can be very effective in terms of self defence.

4) None of us have said that BJJ is the best. We've only pointed out that it is better equipped to give you some basic skills and strategies in a short time *in this one particular area of discussion - groundfighting*. That's a long way from saying "we're better than everybody else at everything".

5) It's not like we've wandered into a thread on shiho nage and said "that's crap you don't know how to ground fight". This thread was started to *specifically discuss* the area of groundfighting. And what, you're surprised BJJ comes up?

A couple of final things to think about.

Someone I forget who mentioned they hang out on some sort of forum regarding cars. If you were on that forum (or any other forum you have an interest outside of Aikido) and the subject of aikido came up with people claiming it was ineffective for example - would you say to yourself "this isn't an aikido forum so I won't respond" or would you look to corret the mistaken belief?

Someone mentioned the jehovahs witnesses. One of the defining features of a cult is that they are intolerant of conflicting opinions, and particularly that they will go to lengths to ensure people don't investigate other world views outside of the cult. I'm not sure that it's the BJJers here who are coming across like that.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 07:36 PM   #89
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

double post

Last edited by Aristeia : 07-25-2006 at 07:44 PM.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:52 PM   #90
ksy
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
You're right, don't worry about it, when you hit the ground you won't need any skills down there.
and you point is?
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:13 PM   #91
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

mike, no one art can cover everything, agreed. 2 simple principles here - either concentrate on improving your strengths or limit your "limitation"/weakness by studying something that supposedly "completes" your art. that is if the person chooses to see it that way. choosing one over the other doesn't mean that the person is pretending that aikido is everything. aikido is supposedly evolving, never complete, isn't it?

my first msg came out sounding harsher than it should have. you seem like you still have a lot of passion for aikido. thanks for sharing your thoughts. when i reach your 13 years of enlightenment, maybe i'd feel what you feel. ..then again, maybe not. adios!


ps - and i never said you were MY "coach". just a "coach", mr bjj/aikido master

Last edited by ksy : 08-01-2006 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:25 PM   #92
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Show me where I ever claimed an art can cover everything. This discussion was never about that and I still can't fathom why people like you keep tryingto make it about that. It was about 2 very specifc questions
1. Is the ground something you should consider from a self defence standpoint
2. Does Aikido offer much in the way of groundfighting.

those with experience groundfighting have tried to answer that question. Some other posters have launched into a defence against an attack that was never made.
But if tearing down strawmen and calling me childish names helps you get through the day, go for your life.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:51 PM   #93
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Show me where I ever claimed an art can cover everything. This discussion was never about that and I still can't fathom why people like you keep tryingto make it about that. It was about 2 very specifc questions
1. Is the ground something you should consider from a self defence standpoint
2. Does Aikido offer much in the way of groundfighting.

those with experience groundfighting have tried to answer that question. Some other posters have launched into a defence against an attack that was never made.
But if tearing down strawmen and calling me childish names helps you get through the day, go for your life.
no need to be so defensive, michael. i agreed on that issue. and, it's a childish name, with a smilie. lighten up, man, it's just a discussion.

Last edited by ksy : 08-01-2006 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:57 PM   #94
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

yeah well I responded before you edited - sometimes it pays to think before you speak rather than after.

And beleive me, i'm not the defensive one on this thread.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:13 PM   #95
ksy
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
yeah well I responded before you edited - sometimes it pays to think before you speak rather than after.

And beleive me, i'm not the defensive one on this thread.
dude, not all of us have the benefit of your 13 years of enlightened training that allows highly-trained fighters like yourself to "move" a lot quicker.

nice to know your post are getting shorter, though. keep up the good work and have a nice day

Last edited by ksy : 08-01-2006 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:16 PM   #96
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

you do realise that responding with a sarcastic ad hominem rather than actually debating the points makes you look a bit childish right?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:18 PM   #97
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Kong it would be great if you could check your posts before sending rather than editing them every time and changing something. It's best for the conversation for us to be able to see what each other are actually responding to rather than a version that was written a minute after the response.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:33 PM   #98
ksy
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Kong it would be great if you could check your posts before sending rather than editing them every time and changing something. It's best for the conversation for us to be able to see what each other are actually responding to rather than a version that was written a minute after the response.
dear michel, can you wait 15 mins before responding? appreciate it, thanks.
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:37 PM   #99
ksy
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
you do realise that responding with a sarcastic ad hominem rather than actually debating the points makes you look a bit childish right?
right.... and you're the epitome of maturity. when debates go in never ending circles, sometimes it's best to just let go. like i said, lighten up mr bjj/aikido master.

Last edited by ksy : 08-01-2006 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:55 PM   #100
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I have not called anybody names or attacked the person rather than the argument. I'd be happy to start if that's your preferred method....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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