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Old 07-24-2006, 05:54 PM   #51
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Why the misreading of defensiveness? I'm just pointing out that I've never seen any videos of BJJ on multiple opponents.
And I haven't seen any videos of Aikidoka vs multiple non compliant opponentes (except in Path Beyond Thought where nage gets owned)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:13 PM   #52
Ken McGrew
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Time after time we see people come on to this Aikido focussed community and insist that their sport, bjj, is the superior, if not the only, valid martial art. I'm not advocating for censorship. Some of the questions raised are worth discussing. But these guys always seem to have something they need to prove. There's a website where owners of the Pontiac Solstice insist that their car is the superior, even ultimate, roadster. They're wrong too, but can't drive well enough know how a car should handle. But that is an aside. BJJ is a sport. It has rules. If you like BJJ, go practice it. Maybe post on a BJJ site about how superior you are.

Below are three quotes from this thread and my responses:

[QUOTE: To say, "We are for multiple attackers and weapons, we dont deal with one guy trying to sit on your chest and pound your head in", is fine, but what happens when you meet a guy who tries to sit on your chest and pound your head in?]

If we are ranking martial arts, then the ability to move away from danger and deal with multiple attackers, run away if possible, would make Aikido rank pretty well. But to answer this question, you do anything you can. Break one of the elbows. Hold onto the striking arm so that the attacker lifts you up with his back draw of the arm. Claw out his eyes. Strike to his throat. Strike to his nose. Break his kneck. Granted, this is a bad place to be. At this point, I'd try to kill him, anyway I could. If I had keys in my pocket, my hands would be free to go there. I might get hurt bad, but he'd die.

[QUOTE: And just for the heck of it, I'd like to throw in while Aikido "teaches" techniques for dealing with multiple attackers, have you ever seen an Aikidoka actually deal with more then one person who is actually trying to harm them? The techniques Aikido teaches for multiple attackers may work if you are armed, but against people who are near your size and ability level will not work if unarmed.]

This statement is so confused that it's hard to respond. 1) I know so many people who have used Aikido in real situations that I'm suprised that you don't. I trained with a cop in NYC who disarmed to men with guns using Aikido because he didn't want to use his gun on a subway platform (bullets hit innocent people when they bounce around). I trained with prison guards. The list goes on. 2) Aikido is designed for open hand. Ofcourse it works unarmed. 3) the focus on "technique" really misses the point of higher level Aikido. Ofcourse technique doesn't work in a real situation with multiple attackers. Saotome sensei has several videos out. 1st Doshu made a good video also. Maybe watch them. Maybe read something.

[And I haven't seen any videos of Aikidoka vs multiple non compliant opponentes (except in Path Beyond Thought where nage gets owned)]

This is related to #3 above. People who don't understand ukemi complain about "compliant" ukes as they come in slowly and grab a wrist. Real attacks have speed and momentum. Otherwise you'd never get near me. When you do, I'll use your own momentum, violent mindset, and a lot of other things against you. Or rather, I'll let you destroy yourself. To practice Aikido without killing your partner it can't be entirely "real." Therefore we practice to "simulate" a combat situation. A body in motion is a compliant body, so far as continuing that motion is concerned. If you'd ever captured someone's motion you'd understand that. If you'd ever been thrown by someone skilled at capturing motion you wouldn't fool yourself into thinking it only worked because you gave it to them.

I can't understand people who train Aikido making statements like the last one quoted. O'Sensei taught us to be "cooperative." Watch the videos of his students doing what he wanted, simulating combat BY being cooperative. And for the record, Nage gets owned on the test under Seagal sensei, in part, because even in his dojo there are rules. Nage didn't hurt the ukes so they were free to keep coming back. In the real world there are no such rules, only your own compassion, and the necessities for survival to be balanced.

I am certain that the BJJ believers in this thread will not listen to or consider any of the things I've written.

Ken McGrew

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 07-24-2006 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:48 PM   #53
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

People,

Realise this, going to the ground is a high possibility due to GRAVITY (TM). If you are learning a predominantly stand-up art like karate, aikido, Muay Thai for SD, get some basic instruction of how to escape clinch, take-down, and katamae-waza (body pins). You don't have to spend ages to learn the basics. You need basic instruction and some exposure.

The argument goes visa-versa for ground predominant art (e.g, BJJ and wrestling folks).

If you are doing it to compete in MMA events, then you need to know the full spectrum of the range of fighting and more advance training.

Other than that, do what you enjoy the most, but cross train in areas your art do not cover.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:24 AM   #54
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Nice post Boon, you're on to it.

Ken I appreciate you feel strongly about this but you're railing against a straw man. NO ONE is saying "their sport, bjj, is the superior, if not the only, valid martial art." That's what you're reading into it. Again, an example of someone arguing against the argument they expect to hear rather than the one being made.

The original poster asked a question in two parts.
If self defence is important to me,
1) should I be concerned about what to do on the ground
2) does aikido offer workable ground stratagies.

If you have a look at the responses I and others have given, we have *stipulated* that Aikido is great for many things, and there are many good reasons to train. But that in terms of the specific question being asked.
1) yes the ground is important
2) no aikido doesn't have particularly good solutions FOR THIS ASPECT OF SELF DEFENCE but that's okay because a fairly brief amount of training somwhere else will give it to you.

which bit of that do you disagree with? This isn't about BJJ vs Aikido. It's about the right tool for the right job.

We are not trolling the board looking to slam Aikido. I did Aikido for 13 years and taught for many of those years. I think it's a fantastic art with much to offer. But when a specific question like this is asked it behooves us to answer honestly.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:39 AM   #55
Ken McGrew
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Michael,

What you are saying, in regards to the nature of posts in this thread against Aikido and in favor of BJJ being superior, is a misrepresenation of what people have written. Let me quote:

"It all depends on who you are fighting on the ground. If you are unfortunate enough to end up fighting someone with ground experience (Someone with a year or so of: MMA, BJJ, Western Wrestling, etc.) then you are going to lose, Aikido will not help you defeat someone trained in a ground fighting system, if you fight them on the ground, while unarmed."

Most of the posts in this thread were sarcastic and dismissive of Aikido in favor of BJJ, and in favor of the notion that all fights go to the ground, so ground fighters win. Moreover, this thread is like many others of a similar nature.

I don't view these ultimate fighting ground styles as good training to round out my abilities. I view them as a mirage. They propose a set of tools as being useful in the real world when they are only, in my view, useful in a sporting event with strict rules. If I taught a lesson on what to do if pinned down by someone's legs while he tried to strike you with punches or elbows, after teaching the various ways to avoid this, I wouldn't be teaching the things BJJ teaches. They teach ways to turn the tables and become the person on top pounding the other person. I try to teach my students strategies for survival. I'm not a big guy. Some of my students are much smaller than me. These groundfighting arts are a loosing game for us when attacked by larger people and their friends. Not useful at all.

Ken

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 07-25-2006 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:47 AM   #56
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Ken, I've outlined my experience in Aikido. I can throw my sandan on the table as well if you like. Care to outline your experience with BJJ beyond watching the UFC on the couch? The reason I ask is that your post indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of how BJJ works - implying it's a strength/size thing.

Are you advocating that gaining top position is a poor strategy and it's better to stay underneath?

That's as far asI"m going to bite on the details of the criticisms you've levelled at BJJ. I could go on but it's outside of the scope of this discussion.

The quote you posted
"It all depends on who you are fighting on the ground. If you are unfortunate enough to end up fighting someone with ground experience (Someone with a year or so of: MMA, BJJ, Western Wrestling, etc.) then you are going to lose, Aikido will not help you defeat someone trained in a ground fighting system, if you fight them on the ground, while unarmed."

Are you suggesting that if an aikidoka is fighting ont he ground with a ground speicialist they are not going to lose? To say that the odds are stacked against you when you are dealing with someone in their area of speciality is not dismissive or sarcastic. It is simply realistic.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 01:12 AM   #57
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Good to see. (BTW the guy in the first photo looks like he's about to be rolled over. He needs to hook his right arm behind uke's head, grab his own right thigh and extend his right food toward uke's head)
Pretty much what happened. It was a teaching moment, the guy on the mat is Peter Boylan, judo sandan, who was teaching the newaza portion of the seminar. Big fun!

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Old 07-25-2006, 01:16 AM   #58
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Wink Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote:
T

This statement is so confused that it's hard to respond. 1) I know so many people who have used Aikido in real situations that I'm suprised that you don't. I trained with a cop in NYC who disarmed to men with guns using Aikido because he didn't want to use his gun on a subway platform (bullets hit innocent people when they bounce around). I trained with prison guards. The list goes on. 2) Aikido is designed for open hand. Ofcourse it works unarmed. 3) the focus on "technique" really misses the point of higher level Aikido. Ofcourse technique doesn't work in a real situation with multiple attackers. Saotome sensei has several videos out. 1st Doshu made a good video also. Maybe watch them. Maybe read something.

Ken McGrew
1) Everyone has a story about how they or someone they know has fought 3 ninjas with machine guns using only Irimi nage, but those are just stories.

2) I've made the argument many times, I personally don't believe Aikido's technical syllabus support s unarmed fighting. I'm sure you don't feel the same, but that's just my oppinion against yours...back to stories.

3)This one is hard for me to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to say, but I'll try. Technique is the root of our system, saying that you wouldn't use Aikido technique in your fights, would be like a boxer saying he doesn't use jabs, or a Judoka saying they don't use hip throws, those are the techniques of their systems; of coarse they use them! And I don't know how the first Doshu, or Saotome sensei would do in a real fight with multiple attackers, because I've never seen them do it, I don't think anyone has. So like I said they "teach" it, but that doesn't mean they know how to do it, or that it even works.

-Chris Hein

p.s. Boon I seen you've trade marked GRAVITY, good call, I think it will pay off!!

Last edited by ChrisHein : 07-25-2006 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 07-25-2006, 01:19 AM   #59
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Why the misreading of defensiveness? I'm just pointing out that I've never seen any videos of BJJ on multiple opponents.
Mainly, IMHO, because there are a LOT of folks out there who would paint all of aikido with a broad 'un-effective' brush. Truth is, there are aikido lineages that are pretty rock-n-roll, and others that are absolutely hoopty-frooty.

However, some folks are far to fast to dismiss aikido (I don't DO aikido, BTW, but study it as an adjunct to my primary art) as completely useless, and in recent years, there have been lots of incursions into Aikiweb by folks who start out with the 'how does aikido do on the ground' question, when they've already made up their minds and simply want to troll.

You're spot on, MOST aikido doesn't have much ground strategy, but then, as Kevin said, MOST aikido really doesn't have a strong self defense strategy right there on the surface in plain sight, either.

Quite frankly, neither does BJJ.

Neither are sogo budo (to borrow an old turn of phrase), offering tools with which to deal with physical combat at a wide variety of ranges with a wide variety of weapons.

They each excel in their own areas, and have plenty to offer anyone with an eye toward the broader aspects of physical combatives.

But that's MNSHO .... YMMV, of course.

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Old 07-25-2006, 02:37 AM   #60
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
thanks for the invitation. I disagree. I know a couple of people who have survived group attacks due to ground fighting.
yeah, right. everyone's heard stories about the 3 ninjas attacking this ground fighter, and he survived. it's just stories, man.

[/quote]
And again you're making the mistake of assuming we're choosing one or the other. In a multiple environent you are much more likely to get taken down so ground skills become *more important* but NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SHOULD NECESSARILY BE YOUR STRATEGY.

Ah I feel better.[/quote]

ground skills more important against multiples? of course the possibility of getting taken down against mulitple is increased. but how many of you think that if you get taken down with by 3 people, your ground skills are save you? be realistic, will ya? should we then say that when confronted with multiples, our running skills take precedent, therefore all of us should go for some track & field training? duhhh....
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Old 07-25-2006, 02:46 AM   #61
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
Aikido is not designed for groundwork, it was designed for battle; multiple opponents, weapons, and mobility. None of these circumstances are favorable for ground fighting. ... You are fighting for your life on the ground. You will either subdue your opponent or you will be subdued by your opponent.
yeah, man. i can just imagine those people who created the daito-ryu fighting systems in a time when mistakes would cost lives doing a checklist on what their particular fighting art is good for.

1. multiple opponents- "check!"
2. single opponents-"check!"
3. against sword attack-"check!"
4. against knife attack-"check!"
5. against horseback rider-"check!"
6. again wrestler, ground fighting- "Nahhh!!! that's never gonna happen!"
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:21 AM   #62
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
And I don't know how the first Doshu, or Saotome sensei would do in a real fight with multiple attackers, because I've never seen them do it, I don't think anyone has. So like I said they "teach" it, but that doesn't mean they know how to do it, or that it even works.
-Chris Hein
By First Doshu, you meant M. Ueshiba? His encounter with multiple aggressor was documented.

Thank god, Gozo Shioda did his multiple attackers research and development in his early formative years in the street of Shinjuku.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:22 AM   #63
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Ken, I've outlined my experience in Aikido.
yeah, you da man- 13 years and all, throwing sandans all round. cool! reminds me of this guy i met at a motorcycle rally, told me he had 15 years biking experience. later, he was seen dragging his feet on the ground when the bike was going slow. effectively, what he had was bad 1st year technique x 15.

And just for your info, it's not about getting defensive. It's about expressing of how you feel about a certain point, so there's no need to patronise, mr aikido/bjj master.

I got one coach Jgracia, who says aikido is enough. Another coach MFooks who say it ain't. who am i gonna believe? sir, if the responses that you get from aikidokas here doesn't please you, then just look away. If they wish to say, "aikido is all i want to study because i believe it to be complete" then let them learn, their own way. Why do you feel there is a need to "educate" us so thoroughly, a need to "prove your point" or "change their views"?

Your quote "So why do some feel like the answer always has to be "oh yes everything you want is right here in Aikido no need to do anything else whatever your goals"?"

and if they feel like this at the present moment, just what exactly is wrong with that?

Do you go around "educating" forum readers of other standing martial arts (karate,tkd,wingchun)? Or do you just stick around here repeating your beliefs just because you know us akido guys like to run around in circles?

And when your 13 years experience says that aikido is not usefull for ground fighting, is it the limitation of Aikido per se, or a personal limitation of your own aikido techniques?

Last edited by ksy : 07-25-2006 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 07-25-2006, 03:49 AM   #64
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
yeah, you da man- 13 years and all, throwing sandans all round. cool! reminds me of this guy i met at a motorcycle rally, told me he had 15 years biking experience. later, he was seen dragging his feet on the ground when the bike was going slow. effectively, what he had was bad 1st year technique x 15.

And just for your info, it's not about getting defensive. It's about expressing of how you feel about a certain point, so there's no need to patronise, mr aikido/bjj master.

I got one coach Jgracia, who says aikido is enough. Another coach MFooks who say it ain't. who am i gonna believe? sir, if the responses that you get from aikidokas here doesn't please you, then just look away. If they wish to say, "aikido is all i want to study because i believe it to be complete" then let them learn, their own way. Why do you feel there is a need to "educate" us so thoroughly, a need to "prove your point" or "change their views"?

Your quote "So why do some feel like the answer always has to be "oh yes everything you want is right here in Aikido no need to do anything else whatever your goals"?"

and if they feel like this at the present moment, just what exactly is wrong with that?

Do you go around "educating" forum readers of other standing martial arts (karate,tkd,wingchun)? Or do you just stick around here repeating your beliefs just because you know us akido guys like to run around in circles?

And when your 13 years experience says that aikido is not usefull for ground fighting, is it the limitation of Aikido per se, or a personal limitation of your own aikido techniques?
Ha ha ha, this is a very hilarious post. Kong, chill a little will ya. You have strong spirit, but then this is just a forum, people are entitled to their opinion, whether you accept or not, is entirely up to you.

There was a time when aikiweb was a pure aiki-bliss before the invasion of BJJ/ground-fighter netizens, those good ole'days.

Boon.

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Old 07-25-2006, 04:55 AM   #65
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Pretty much what happened. It was a teaching moment, the guy on the mat is Peter Boylan, judo sandan, who was teaching the newaza portion of the seminar. Big fun!
Warms the cockles to see such things happening.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 05:02 AM   #66
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
ground skills more important against multiples? of course the possibility of getting taken down against mulitple is increased. but how many of you think that if you get taken down with by 3 people, your ground skills are save you? be realistic, will ya? should we then say that when confronted with multiples, our running skills take precedent, therefore all of us should go for some track & field training? duhhh....
You're right, don't worry about it, when you hit the ground you won't need any skills down there.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 05:11 AM   #67
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
yeah, you da man- 13 years and all, throwing sandans all round. cool! reminds me of this guy i met at a motorcycle rally, told me he had 15 years biking experience. later, he was seen dragging his feet on the ground when the bike was going slow. effectively, what he had was bad 1st year technique x 15.

And just for your info, it's not about getting defensive. It's about expressing of how you feel about a certain point, so there's no need to patronise, mr aikido/bjj master.
Funny sounds pretty defensive.

I'm not trying to patronise, nor show myself to be any sort of master. I beleive this thread is the first time I've ever mentioned how long I've been training or what rank I hold on aikiweb. And the reason was to try and show that i'm not just a BJJer who's come in to stir things up. I was an aikidoka long before I walked onto a BJJ mat and it is still an art dear to my heart.

I also brought it up because Ken was making statements re BJJ I viewed as naiive. I therefore question whether he has actually experienced it. Which means it made sense for me to qualify the perspective from which I'm commenting.
Quote:
I got one coach Jgracia, who says aikido is enough. Another coach MFooks who say it ain't. who am i gonna believe?
since when did I become your coach?
Quote:
sir, if the responses that you get from aikidokas here doesn't please you, then just look away. If they wish to say, "aikido is all i want to study because i believe it to be complete" then let them learn, their own way. Why do you feel there is a need to "educate" us so thoroughly, a need to "prove your point" or "change their views"?
People can beleive what they want. I answered the question of the original poster just like everyone else, the conversation went from there because there was a difference of opinion. It's kinda how these things work.
It may be that the OP was a troll, who knows. But if not it's important he gets a balanced response.
Quote:
Your quote "So why do some feel like the answer always has to be "oh yes everything you want is right here in Aikido no need to do anything else whatever your goals"?"

and if they feel like this at the present moment, just what exactly is wrong with that?
it's naiive. No art offers a complete solution. To pretend to a new student that it does is dishonest. So I offer my opinion just as others have
Quote:
Do you go around "educating" forum readers of other standing martial arts (karate,tkd,wingchun)? Or do you just stick around here repeating your beliefs just because you know us akido guys like to run around in circles?
Beleive it or not over the years I've spent quite a bit of time on places like RMA and Bullshido defending Aikido to the MMA types. But don't worry about that it's much easier if you put me into the cubbyhole you've already got for me.
Quote:
And when your 13 years experience says that aikido is not usefull for ground fighting, is it the limitation of Aikido per se, or a personal limitation of your own aikido techniques?
it's a limitation of the art. What makes you think an art which in 99% of the dojos never trains ground grappling would or should be useful for that? It's bizarre. It's like people getting upset if you say baseball players aren't typically good at tackling. That's not a criticism of baseball it's just not what they do.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 05:17 AM   #68
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
aikiweb was a pure aiki-bliss before the invasion of BJJ/ground-fighter netizens, those good ole'days.

Boon.
Hey Boon. I know this was likely toungue in cheek but I want to make this point. I've been posting on aikiweb for years before many of the people on this thread, and reading it for many years before that. Which doesn't lend my opinion any more weight, but the point is this. I can't speak for the other BJJers here, but became a BJJer after I got into aikiweb, not before. So I'm not an invading BJJer, I'm an Aikidoka who took up BJJ. I can't imagine why a pure BJJer would ever come to aikiweb anymore than an aikidoka would hang out on BJJ forums.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2006, 07:18 AM   #69
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I'm more interested in hearing the opinions of people that do or have done aikido and now do or also do another martial art -- far more interested -- than hearing people that have only done aikido talk about why another art isn't useful OR people that have never done aikdio talk about why aikido isn't useful . . .

Myself, I tend to fall into the "it's good to be well-rounded" side of things, and while I also have some experience in striking and grappling arts, these days my primary art is aikido. From my current perspective, I think that the art/system is only part of the equation (I actually think HOW the art is trained is far more important than what you call it). For me, the most important factors are the teacher, dojo and people with which I train.
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:01 AM   #70
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Ken,
Thanks for saying what a lot of us are thinking. The BJJ forums must stink because their adherents are all over here. I wouldn't think of going to a BJJ board and try to tell them that they should be doing our art for any reason at all. It's like one person who wrote me said, "I didn't come to Aikido to be told I need BJJ..."
People who are good Aikidoists know what it is and what it is for. It is a Japanese budo. I only say that whatever self defense Aikido supplies is enough for a normal person. The BJJ lovers want to stay with the claim that you have to learn groundwork to be complete and that's just isn't true. They need the groundwork because that is what they believe. I am coming up on my 51st birthday and I haven't needed BJJ for any of those 51 years and that includes before I learned Aikido. Aikido has been enough for this normal person who tries to stay out of trouble.
It's a common thing to want to feel like what you have is the best and better than anyone else. I see that in religion, sports and now, the BJJ community. I am sure a BJJ guy can beat up everyone else if they can get them to the ground. That's not my point. I just don't believe a normal person needs it. That is a specialized sport. Aikido is about something else entirely. Some of the greatest martial artists in the world don't know BJJ. Some of the greatest of all time didn't know BJJ and they were really great and what they knew was enough. My Sensei is 73, he is one of the greatest martial artists I have ever met and he doesn't know BJJ. I want to pattern myself after what I have seen him do . I am not impressed by the BJJ arguments and I have no interest in it at all.

Maybe Jun could start a permanent thread for the BJJ guys so every time they want to talk about the need for BJJ, they could do it in their own place. That way some of us don't have to go scouring through threads trying to keep our lunch down by checking to see what forum hasn't been invaded by BJJ triumphalism. Either that or lets just call this BJJweb and make the URL BJJ.com

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:34 AM   #71
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Mainly, IMHO, because there are a LOT of folks out there who would paint all of aikido with a broad 'un-effective' brush. Truth is, there are aikido lineages that are pretty rock-n-roll, and others that are absolutely hoopty-frooty.

However, some folks are far to fast to dismiss aikido (I don't DO aikido, BTW, but study it as an adjunct to my primary art) as completely useless, and in recent years, there have been lots of incursions into Aikiweb by folks who start out with the 'how does aikido do on the ground' question, when they've already made up their minds and simply want to troll.
Chuck, here, you have said it all. I have been thinking this since the first day these guys started up with this BJJ triumphalism. I am just one of a lot of people that thought it was a sane thing to go to an Aikido forum and website to discuss and learn about Aikido. OK, once in a while, we can veer off and now and then, it's ok if a troll wanders through but this is a new phenomenon going on here. What we have is a vein of personality invade Aikiweb that has a need for some kind of "completeness". It is a psychological need of sorts. They want to believe that with Aikido, BJJ, and maybe some other stuff, they can train for some kind of martial arts completeness. O Sensei was a man who addressed that after going through a lifetime of Daito ryu and some other arts as well. He understood that even the greatest fighter will be defeated someday and all that training would be in vain.

These new "Every martial arts needs BJJ'ers" are really feeding their own egos. I don't say that because we have a difference of opinion. I say that because they feel a need to come over to an Aikido forum to tell us all that! I don't have a psychological need to go to the BJJ forum or a Judo forum and tell them why they need Aikido. This is an Aikido forum. In the end, a normal person, following the Funakoshi rule of self defense will be fine and the help you get from Aikido will be way beyond self defense if you understand where the Founder was coming from. Mike, your 13 years in Aikido didn't do you much good if you didn't get that part from Aikido. It's time for a reread of your Art of Peace.

I am a physical person by nature and I have always liked to rumble. In my Aikido, I enjoy hard strikes, good resistance and the uke countering me if he wants to. He can take me to the ground, trip me, try to hit me where the sun doesn't shine, etc. We're not teaching dance lessons around here. Having said that, Aikido is a Japanese budo and that's where Aikido makes it's greatest contribution. It's about dealing with a fighting and triumphalistic spirit. We're all on the path so I am not claiming a superiority to anyone else. I just wish the "you must have ground fighting" crowd and the BJJ group would find those forums and then have a blast saying anything you want to say. If I want to hear that, I'll tune to that channel and I promise not to start trolling your group with thread after thread about the exact same thing.
Best wishes,

Last edited by Jorge Garcia : 07-25-2006 at 08:44 AM.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:54 AM   #72
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Last night, I met Master Benny Ming of Wing Chun Kung Fu. ( http://www.mengsofaz.com )
We talked a while and he said to me, "You have a good system. I studied it for a while in the 1980's." I responded by saying, "I admire Wing Chun but could never study it because I can barely comprehend the art I am studying now. I can't understand how people can study more than one art and master them." Here was his opening to get me! Did he take it? He responded, " Studying one art is good, that will give you an opportunity to go deeper. In the end, we will all end up in the same place."
Now that's a master!

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:39 AM   #73
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Ken,
Thanks for saying what a lot of us are thinking. The BJJ forums must stink because their adherents are all over here. I wouldn't think of going to a BJJ board and try to tell them that they should be doing our art for any reason at all. It's like one person who wrote me said, "I didn't come to Aikido to be told I need BJJ..."
People who are good Aikidoists know what it is and what it is for. It is a Japanese budo. I only say that whatever self defense Aikido supplies is enough for a normal person. The BJJ lovers want to stay with the claim that you have to learn groundwork to be complete and that's just isn't true. They need the groundwork because that is what they believe. I am coming up on my 51st birthday and I haven't needed BJJ for any of those 51 years and that includes before I learned Aikido. Aikido has been enough for this normal person who tries to stay out of trouble.

I would argue that the moment you are in a self defense situation you are not a normal person any longer. A normal person will never get in a single fight in their life.

That said. I do not advocate people join bjj gyms. I dont advocate people do boxing, judo, aikido, etc. I simply advocate that people train and develop strategy's to deal with each range of combat. Starting with verbal, and ending with lava, broken glass, m16's, and the marines. I just want people to be honest with themselves and their training. This is something very few people seem able to do.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-25-2006, 11:47 AM   #74
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
I just want people to be honest with themselves and their training. This is something very few people seem able to do.
Why do you want this for others? Isn't it enough that you are honest with yourself?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-25-2006, 12:12 PM   #75
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

It's called advocacy. I belive in a cause. This cause is improving the nature of martial arts. You have to admit, the state of martial arts in this world is going down hill. I have more soke, shihans, hanshi's, people who can kill me with a single blow, then you would believe. Everytime someone makes an outlandish claim, someone might listen and then suffer because they took bad advice. When I tell someone I train in martial arts, I do not want to have to add a ton of 'I'm not like that' responses on the end.

The worst part is, this blind 'wisdom' has grown to the point where it is no longer only limited to frauds. The people taught by these frauds are now teaching what they believe to be fact. Of course I use fraud liberally. There are big frauds (No touch knock outs) and there are little frauds (we dont spar because we are too deadly). The problem stems from the fact that people dont ask enough questions and dont challege statements they belive to be wrong.

I came to this forum as an aikidoka. I was disillusioned with my training, but I was not yet ready to let go. I thought I may find insight here that would help me make my decision. I did find the insight I was looking for. This forum helped me make my decision to discontine my aikido training. (As did other forums). However, I am a student first and a critic last. I post here not to convert everyone to bjj. I post here to ask questions and make statements. My hope as that these questions and statements will get people to think about what they are doing and why the belive what they believe. Then I hope they will answer honestly. I then take this and compare it to my life exp and I hope that in the process both partys learn something (although as long as I learn something is fine with me). So helping others helps improve my quality of life and training. If I never teach my partners, how can they ever help me grow?

However, I can not let what I feel to be a falsehood slide by without saying it is a falsehood. If you say "You can be a complete fighter without groundfighting." I have to say that is a falsehood. It is as rediculous and saying "You can be a complete fighter without learning how to punch." or "You can be a complete fighter without getting into shape.". You simple are not a complete fighter if you are not prepared to handle an attacker in all ranges of combat. However, I do not belive you NEED to be a complete fighter. For example, I am not prepared for multiple attackers with guns. This does not concern me, because if I have gotten to that point, I bet I deserve the multiple gun shot wounds.

We dont see people respond honestly in most cases. They will say things like "I would just not go to the ground." or "If I focus my ki on my one point, I can not be taken down.", and even the "If I was taken down a simple finger lock or eye gouge would suffice.". These are statements made by either a few types of people. A) Someone who has never been attacked before,and only has their teachers knowedge to go on B) Someone who does not want to admit the truth, C) Someone as powerful as O'Sensei, D) A fool who is overconfident in their ablities, or E) Someone mixed of the other choices.

An honest answer would be like, "I dont train to defend myself on the ground and I know I am vunurable there. It simply is not a priority to me", "I dont believe many fights end up on the ground as people claim, so I dont feel my time is well spent on the ground" (if you really believe that), "I focus my standup training on defending common takedowns so I have a better chance of keeping the fight in my game.", "Self defense isn't as big as a priority to me as the culture and other things in my art.", and of course "I don't know why I don't train on the ground, I should explore it."

I do not train weapon defenses. If someone tells me I should, I would tell them I simply have not seen any weapon defenses I find effective enough to bother training and my training focus is more on competition then self defense. This is a honest answer. However, I could tell them "Jiujitsu was designed as a one on one ground fighitng art, if my opponenet had a weapon, I simply wouldn't let him use it." This is essentially the arguement most aikidoka give when a judo or bjj guy askes about ground fighting. It would be the same as if you told asked me how I deal with multiple attackers. "Well, jiujitsu is a one on one ground fighting art, if there were multiple attackers I would simply deal with them one at a time."

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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