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Old 07-23-2006, 07:43 PM   #26
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
A safe environment, no possibility of weapons, of multiple attackers, a (relatively) cushy landing area to fall on, and getting paid for it, I don't blame them. And there have been fixes in sports/entertainment, and we never see the contracts, so putting all the above together I have a hard time seeing how UFC-ish events extrapolate to real life self defense situations.

I can't say I've ever been impressed by the UFC, actually I find it frustrating to watch. A lot seems to be made of the ground work but every time I watch a fight (and I watch them a lot) the sum total of the ground work seems to be a guy on his back desperately holding his attacker in place with his legs as he gets repeatedly punched and elbowed.
Occasionally the guy on the bottom decides to roll over, usually without realising that the guy on top is immediately going to wet himself with excitement as he goes for a rear naked choke. This being obvious I always wonder why the people on the bottom seldom try to defend against it. I mean I do Judo for fun and I manage not to get choked from that kind of situation and I've been training for 1 hour a week for about 6 weeks and that's without half the tools available to people in the UFC. Every time I go for a rear naked choke they tuck their chin in or get an arm in the way, at which point I cut up shomen and strangle them anyway but at least they're making an effort.

Then there's the issue of how they get to the ground in the first place. The majority of the time its because one guy has thrown himself at the other. The other guy for his part usually just stands there and lets him do it. Every time I see it I'm like "f***king move". Drives me insane, honestly if you claim to be a martial artist you should at least be able to move 1.5 meters in less than a second. Fling yourself into a roll if need be. The rest of the time they get taken down its because after spending 2-3 minutes hugging, the pair of them trip over one another and come crashing to the floor. Now if I hugged my Judo instructor I'm pretty certain my ass would end up getting thrown, gi or no gi. There are ways of throwing people from this, but you only see it even attempted in the UFC only maybe once in 20 fights. The best takedowns belong in the Darwin Awards. People that break the golden rule of kicking, don't kick too high otherwise you're as likely to put your own behind on the floor as you are the other guys. They should train on an unsprung wooden floor (I'm thinking solid wood blocks) like I did in TKD, landing on your coccyx a couple of times gets you out of the habit of making big flashy kicks.
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Old 07-23-2006, 09:08 PM   #27
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Much of your other arguments can be directed straight back at Aikido. How many aikidoka have been in a fight and used their techniques.
In 1972, I had a 10 minute fight and I never went to the ground. Neither did he but he left with a broken arm. In January of 2004, a fitness instructor from the YMCA weight room (who was later fired for insubordination) said he didn't think Aikido worked. He asked if he could test me so I said ok. He came at me hard 7 times. Three times from the front and four times from behind and I put him on the ground 7 times. He signed up and became my student.
In that first year, I didn't have anyone that knew Aikido so I had a to use a Judo practitioner as my uke to demonstrate techniques. He didn't understand what we were doing so every time he attacked me and I tried to execute a technique, he always tried to counter me or to get away from my pins. I would just henka waza or kaeshi waza and he would have to tap out every time. He also stayed on for a year.
Recently, I had one of my students who is a long time Judo practitioner ask if he could try to escape my technique. I said sure so even knowing what I was going to do, I put him on the ground twice and he was unable to escape. I had to henka twice on him but when I asked him what happened, he said, " You did the kotegaeshi too fast on me and the pain made me give up."

When my son was a teenager, he was attacked from behind by a full grown man on the streets of Houston trying to mug him in a robbery attempt. He came home from his job at the local Blockbuster Video holding his shirt that was torn right off his back. He said the man pulled him so hard that the shirt tore off of him as he was falling backwards. My son managed to catch him a sankyo and come up standing with a back roll and then applied the hold with all his might. He left the man writhing in pain on the ground. He said he could still hear him screaming blocks away. We saw the man about a week later walking near that same spot. He had a full cast on his arm and he appeared to be limping somewhat.

So far, our Ostrich defense seems to be working pretty good.I think we'll call it the "MF Ostrich defense" in your honor.

By the way, in the last two years, I have had 4 Karate instructors with their own dojos as my students, I have had Judo men and all other stripes of martial artists but none have come away saying that our Aikido needed some help from BJJ. I don't think Karate, Judo, Daito ryu or anything else needs help from BJJ. If the martial artists is competent, he'll be ok. I think we're looking at a sort of martial arts triumphalism going on when we fantasize that our art is the key or that any series and combination of arts will make us superior. I just can't buy that argument.
If you are a good BJJ man, then love your art and practice it but get off the high horse and come on back to earth. We can all still be friends. I don't need to tell anyone they need Aikido to make sure they are fully prepared for anything. That's abit too much. Around here, I don't teach Aikido for self defense anyway, we're doing Japanese budo but Aikido is still all the self defense we'll ever need if we just use the Funakoshi rule of personal self defense.

I'm on to other threads now. I've said my part in this. Thanks guys for all the private pm's and support.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:34 AM   #28
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

So your extrapolating from 4 examples, half of which were real world to say "if you're interested in self defence ground defence is not necessary"?. What about the learning curve? No benefit in using a quick solution to shore up your defence before you reach that magical moment when your aikido will keep you on your feet?

I'm simply saying - if self defence is what the guy is looking for, he should be prepared in all ranges and for eventualities. It may well be he doesn't know he's in a fight till he hits the ground. I'm not even saying he should do BJJ for that - there's judo, wrestling etc.

But when someone asks "I'm interested in self defence should i learn something on the ground" then "no aikido will ensure you never get there" is not an honest response.

I also agree that there are many and plentiful reasons for doing aikido that are not focused on self defence. I think that's why most Aikidoka practice - few do it primarily for the ability to fight imo. I also beleive that it can be an extremely effective form of self defence when it is done well.

I just don't believe it has good answers to problems on the ground. And that is a gap that can easily be filled elsewhere.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:43 AM   #29
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
I can't say I've ever been impressed by the UFC, actually I find it frustrating to watch. A lot seems to be made of the ground work but every time I watch a fight (and I watch them a lot) the sum total of the ground work seems to be a guy on his back desperately holding his attacker in place with his legs as he gets repeatedly punched and elbowed.
Don't know what you're watching, but on recent events I've seen armbars, triangles, sweeps, even an omoplata attempt that came pretty close.
Quote:
Occasionally the guy on the bottom decides to roll over, usually without realising that the guy on top is immediately going to wet himself with excitement as he goes for a rear naked choke.
No, guys at UFC level know that's exactly what's going to happen. But they figure they have more of a chance defending that than the elbows. Tell me are people throwing full power elbows at you in judo class? And again don't know what events you're watching because I regularly see guys defend against the rear naked choke. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't
Quote:


Then there's the issue of how they get to the ground in the first place. The majority of the time its because one guy has thrown himself at the other. The other guy for his part usually just stands there and lets him do it. Every time I see it I'm like "f***king move". Drives me insane, honestly if you claim to be a martial artist you should at least be able to move 1.5 meters in less than a second. Fling yourself into a roll if need be.
Tell ya what, how bout you go fight in a few MMA events and then come back and tell us how people should just move out of the way of a takedown from Ortiz or Hughes. Have you considered that you may not be giving full appreciation to the setups they use before they start the takedown?
It's pretty easy from the couch though huh.
Quote:
The rest of the time they get taken down its because after spending 2-3 minutes hugging, the pair of them trip over one another and come crashing to the floor.
yeah that's right, they just by chance trip over each other. Nope no technique going on there, no skill. Can't be because it doesn't look like what the guys in the nice white gi's do.
Quote:
Now if I hugged my Judo instructor I'm pretty certain my ass would end up getting thrown, gi or no gi.
. I've no doubt it would. Just as I've no doubt that if Couture or Liddell hugged your judo instructore they wouldn't be going anywhere if they didn't want to
Quote:
There are ways of throwing people from this, but you only see it even attempted in the UFC only maybe once in 20 fights.
And why do you think that is hmmmm?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:34 AM   #30
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
1) If you stay safe , make wise decisions, and use your common sense, you should never be in a fight in your whole life ... I learned to stay out of fights- not get into them.
Exactly. Therein lies the wise man's first line of defense.

Quote:
5) "Ninety percent of all fights end up on the ground" Can someone give me the scientific research for that statistic.
It's McDojo McMyth. The original study was concerning police officers and arrest tactics. The study (UCLA, maybe?) was done to figure out why so many cops were getting banged up whilst apprehending perps. It found that something like 70-75 percent of all police apprehensions IN THAT STUDY went to the ground.

Somehow or other, it got blown all out of proportion and morphed all the hell over the place. Bottom line is this: There's no proof that very many (non-police related, anyway, and if you get tackled by a cop, chances are you did something to bring it on ...) assaults go to the ground. Some do, certainly. How many of those attackers are BJJ or judo newaza trained?

Best defense? Don't be there.

cg

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Old 07-24-2006, 05:41 AM   #31
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

For most folks, the only reason to do newaza or BJJ type training is the same reason they do aikido or kendo or whatever: it's fun!

Newaza is a great tool to explore and play with (and yes, aikido principles do apply and can be used nicely, though the maai is greatly changed and movement is far more restricted). Look here for a bunch of aiki folks (and me and a judo guy) doing newaza recently at an aikido list gathering:

http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...%2006/Indiana/.

If you like it, fine. If you don't, do something else.

The number of folks in most dojo of ANY kind who ever really NEED the self defense aspects of what they're studying is really slim.

Unless the student is an LEO or in the military, chances are reduced dramatically.

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Old 07-24-2006, 05:49 AM   #32
statisticool
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Michael Fooks wrote:

Quote:
How many aikidoka have been in a fight and used their techniques.
http://www.aikidoonline.com/Archives...2_bcorner.html

is a good read.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:56 AM   #33
statisticool
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
It's McDojo McMyth. The original study was concerning police officers and arrest tactics. The study (UCLA, maybe?) was done to figure out why so many cops were getting banged up whilst apprehending perps. It found that something like 70-75 percent of all police apprehensions IN THAT STUDY went to the ground.

Somehow or other, it got blown all out of proportion and morphed all the hell over the place. Bottom line is this: There's no proof that very many (non-police related, anyway, and if you get tackled by a cop, chances are you did something to bring it on ...) assaults go to the ground. Some do, certainly.
Loren Christensen was a policeman in Portland, OR, for many, many years. I believe I remember reading that in one of his books he says that his real life fights rarely went to the ground.

Anyone else remember that or know the book?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:07 AM   #34
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Before I even took judo or bjj every single fight I've ever been in has gone to the ground. Why? Because I grew up in a small town where the biggest sport was wrestling. Everyone in my town was either 1) an outcast, 2) a wrestler, or 3) a football player and a wrestler.

I still remember my first 'fight' outside of high school. I was 17 or 18, black belt in TKD. I was at a local pool hall in town. Somehow I upset this guy. He was smaller then I was. I never found out what I did that upset him. While I was taking my shot he wrapped me up and slammed me across the table behind me. I had a moment of blackness then woke up with a guy on top of me punching me. My friends grabbed him and pulled him up and told him to fight fair. I got up and we engaged. I threw a kick to the mid-section and he darted under my leg picked me up and slammed me again. I woke up in a ambulance. My friends said they pulled him off by the slam had knocked me out and the shop owner had called the police and ambulance.

I have a multitude of these storys as a teenager and young bar hopping adult. Now that I am no longer a bar hopping college kid I have not been in a fight outside of competition. I didn't loose all of them, but in every single one of them I ended up on the ground. I was robbed in chicago once and ended up on the ground. Luckly my friends came out of the bar just in time to help me. The guy came up to me asking for money. I told him no and started to walk around him, he grabbed my arm, I pulled away which lead to a clinch type senario. I started kneeing him in the chest and he managed to throw me and him down to the ground. Then he got on top and started trying to punch me. My friends came out of the bar at that time and started kicking him.

Beyond that the ground sometimes just happens. If you clinch with me and I attempt to throw you and fail, either a) i'm now on the ground, or b) we are both now on the ground. Again, i'm on the ground. I'm not saying everyone needs to know bjj. But I am saying everyone needs to know a) how to stand up safely. And b) how to move on the ground as to allow themselves to stand up safely. You dont need to be a master and throw armbars, and omaplatas. Just so simple positioning skills to learn how to get back to your comfort zone. Otherwise you are going to be stuck playing the other persons game. Clinching is a natural response and falling down usually comes right after clinching. So the best place to start for ground defense is to learn how to deal with a clinch.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:27 AM   #35
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Exactly. Therein lies the wise man's first line of defense.



It's McDojo McMyth. The original study was concerning police officers and arrest tactics. The study (UCLA, maybe?) was done to figure out why so many cops were getting banged up whilst apprehending perps. It found that something like 70-75 percent of all police apprehensions IN THAT STUDY went to the ground.

Somehow or other, it got blown all out of proportion and morphed all the hell over the place. Bottom line is this: There's no proof that very many (non-police related, anyway, and if you get tackled by a cop, chances are you did something to bring it on ...) assaults go to the ground. Some do, certainly. How many of those attackers are BJJ or judo newaza trained?

Best defense? Don't be there.

cg
This is a great post Chuck. It is my real point. By the way, I have been watching a lot of Cops shows recently. They are all over the cable channels nowadays. Have you ever noticed how close those law enforcement officers stand to the suspects they pull over when they are talking to them? It always gives me the hebegeebees to see a lone officer standing at the back of a car with two guys he just pulled over and both of those guys are within a foot and a half of him!. I see that over and over. I wonder about the training they get. Is that because they want to handcuff them and they think they need to be close? Inevitably, in those cases, the suspect decides to make a break for it and attacks the cop trying to get his gun. Who wouldn't? The gun is right there. They always start wrestling because the suspect goes for the gun and the cop is off balance because he is trying to hold his gun and then they both go down. Most of those cops are out of shape, wearing heavy gear, belt, gun, boots, while the suspect is in a T shirt and tennis shoes. No wonder they go down. If that statistic came from a study of cops, that's a bogus statistic for sure.

Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-24-2006, 09:25 AM   #36
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Most of those cops are out of shape, wearing heavy gear, belt, gun, boots, while the suspect is in a T shirt and tennis shoes.
That is also a good point. There is no substitute for fitness. I wish more martial artists would realize this.

If anyone was serious about self defense, there first thing they would do is put the burger down and go lose some weight.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:17 AM   #37
jonreading
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

In a fight, the ground is where you go to die (both literally and figuratively). Animals use the ground to kill their prey. Predators chases their prey, knock them down, then kill them. Humans are a rare exception to predators because tools allow us to kill instantly and without effort. In a world of UFC and other sports, fighters are trained to ignore their human instinct which should be screaming, "get on your feet!!!" Sports helps humans built false confidence in predatory abilities. Sports also build tolerance to natural fears and instincts that have kept humans alive for thousands of years.

The last time I watched Discovery channel, when the lion knocked the wildabeast down, the wildabeast didn't flip into a guard position - it tried desperately to get to its feet and run away. Of course, other lions jumped on the wildabeast when it was on the ground and killed it, which means fleeing didn't work too well either...

Groundwork is a necessary tool in completing a predatory action. When two combatants are on the ground, the question is, "who is the predator?" If you are not capable of answering that question affirmatively, the decision to be on the ground was a poor one. If the decision was made by your opponents, then you are prey in a predatory activity.

Aikido is not designed for groundwork, it was designed for battle; multiple opponents, weapons, and mobility. None of these circumstances are favorable for ground fighting. If presented with the opportunity to fight on the ground, I would choose not to AS IF MY LIFE DEPENDED ON IT. Do you think gazelle argue, "well, if the lion knocked me down, I guess I could do something..."?

I try to add humor to this post, but I grow concerned when I hear talk that removes the underlying urgency and danger inherent in ground fighting. You are fighting for your life on the ground. You will either subdue your opponent or you will be subdued by your opponent.
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:28 AM   #38
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

The questions are:

Are you trained well enough to get back up when your on the ground and a guy is on top of you raining down the blows?

Are you trained well enough to never get taken down?

Actually Jon makes a good point. If someone wants to kill you with their bare hands, they dont jump around boxing, then take you down, sit on your chest and choke/beat you until they feel safe enough to stand up and kick you in the head over and over until they are satisfied you are dead. Are you prepared to deal with someone like that? Self defense and battle defense can be the same, but they can be different too. To say, "We are for multiple attackers and weapons, we dont deal with one guy trying to sit on your chest and pound your head in", is fine, but what happens when you meet a guy who tries to sit on your chest and pound your head in?

Speaking of animals, my cats know how to pull guard. My black cat will pull guard on the black and white cat and sweep it to the mount then submit it with a bite on the neck when they fight over food.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:44 AM   #39
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

It all depends on who you are fighting on the ground. If you are unfortunate enough to end up fighting someone with ground experience (Someone with a year or so of: MMA, BJJ, Western Wrestling, etc.) then you are going to lose, Aikido will not help you defeat someone trained in a ground fighting system, if you fight them on the ground, while unarmed. Now if you are fighting and untrained person, who ever is bigger, or meaner between you two will likely win, just like all other animals, the bigger and meaner ones win when all other factors are equal. How likely are you to end up in a fight with a person trained in ground fighting, well it depends on where you live, and the crowd you run with.

What I'm getting at here is; this is a loaded question. If you mean to ask does Aikido teach ground fighting methods, the answer is no, it does not. If you want ground fighting ability, you should train in a ground fighting system. If you are required to regularly engage in physical confrontation, Aikido shouldn't be your only form of training.

-Chris Hein
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Old 07-24-2006, 12:21 PM   #40
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Correct Chris,

Aikido is designed to teach the principles of aikido or aikibudo. So it is perfect for teaching that. Why do we constantly lose focus on it. The fact that it is associated with martial arts is really a side bar. For some reason we get so fixed on the martial skills that are really ancillary to learning budo and then we have that whole dissonance thing start happening and we start using our aikido filter to judge "real fights" "cop fights" and all that stuff.

If you have a serious and identifiable risk of being in a confrontation, then you need to develop a training methodology that correctly and appropriately mitigates that risk. Aikido methodology ain't it, sorry guys. As much as the principles of dynamic movement are correct and universal and all that good stuff, it is not the best and most efficient way to train for reality.

Some fights end up on the ground. If you are ambushed (as is the case in many real fight), and you somehow survive the initial contact, chances are you are on the ground, it helps to have a modicum of skill to survive and recover to your feet.

It also helps to have some good stand up skills as well. Closing the distance, clinching, dealing with adrenalin surge, and fighting through the pain and emotion are things you will deal with in a real situaiton. Things we don't practice in aikido, but things you must deal with in a real fight. You don't practice these things, then you ain't practicing to handle reality.
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:36 PM   #41
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
assaults go to the ground. Some do, certainly. How many of those attackers are BJJ or judo newaza trained?

e.

cg
Again *not* the point. The question is not can you beat off a highly trained ground fighter on the ground. The answer to that is no. The question is do you have some basic skills and strategy to regain your feet against a stronger aggressive attacker.

Quote:
other folk wrote:
The number of folks in most dojo of ANY kind who ever really NEED the self defense aspects of what they're studying is really slim.
. I agree completely. Again though, that wasn't the question. The question was assuming that self defence IS your primary motivation.....

yep read that a long time ago. Do you think I'd have trouble producing equal (and more recent) stories about groundfighters plying their trade? My point was never that Aikido can't work in self defence. In this instance my point was saying "most bjjers never get into fights" is a bit of a silly argument (particularly from an aikidoka - an art with a higher population of fight adverse practitioners).

Quote:
That is also a good point. There is no substitute for fitness. I wish more martial artists would realize this.
preach on brother Don, preach on

*puts down burger*
Quote:
n a fight, the ground is where you go to die
Jesus, if it's death down there, we better get some tools to get out of that situation! Thanks for the heads up!
Quote:
In a world of UFC and other sports, fighters are trained to ignore their human instinct which should be screaming, "get on your feet!!!
No. They guy in the inferior position's instinct should be screaming "get on your feet". The insticnt of the guy in the superior position is screaming "finish him". Neither of these people is likely to be able to listen to their instinct without a decent size advantage or.....some training. Don't wanna be down there? Fine. How you gonna get up?
Quote:
" Sports helps humans built false confidence in predatory abilities. Sports also build tolerance to natural fears and instincts that have kept humans alive for thousands of years.
Nonsense. Watch kids fight. Always goes to the ground. Kids natrually start inventing a basic guard. they naturally look to get mount. Getting on top of someone and pounding them *is* our instinct. That's why it's what happened in the early ufcs even between standup fighters. The training went out the window and the instincts took over.
Quote:
The last time I watched Discovery channel, when the lion knocked the wildabeast down, the wildabeast didn't flip into a guard position - it tried desperately to get to its feet and run away.
No, instead it had the much superior strategy of getting eaten. If the wildabeast did have an efficient strategy to regain it's feet when a lion takes it down what do you think that would do for it's survival chances?.
Quote:
If presented with the opportunity to fight on the ground, I would choose not to AS IF MY LIFE DEPENDED ON IT. Do you think gazelle argue, "well, if the lion knocked me down, I guess I could do something..."?
TTT for the "I know, I'll get eaten" strategy
Quote:
I try to add humor to this post,
Me too
Quote:
but I grow concerned when I hear talk that removes the underlying urgency and danger inherent in ground fighting. You are fighting for your life on the ground. You will either subdue your opponent or you will be subdued by your opponent.
exactly. So best you win.

Honestly I dont' think any of us are as far apart as we think. I think the majority of the people arguing against me (and others) are arguing against the argument they *expect* to hear from BJJers, not the arguments we are actually putting forward.

- We agree the ground may not be the best place to be.
- There are a variety of circumstances which can result in you being there regardless
- Once you're there you likely want to get to your feet and in a dominant position asap (preferably with them left in an inferior position).
- Unless you're very strong and very large, your best bet is to learn some basic groundfighting strategy to accomplish this.
-That won't help against a well trained grappler, but the chances of being attacked by one of those is very small.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:48 PM   #42
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
. Look here for a bunch of aiki folks (and me and a judo guy) doing newaza recently at an aikido list gathering:

http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...%2006/Indiana/.

.
Good to see. (BTW the guy in the first photo looks like he's about to be rolled over. He needs to hook his right arm behind uke's head, grab his own right thigh and extend his right food toward uke's head)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:37 PM   #43
statisticool
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Luckly my friends came out of the bar just in time to help me.
Very lucky, since if his friends instead of yours were there, this

Quote:
My friends came out of the bar at that time and started kicking him.
could have happened to you instead of to him.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:51 PM   #44
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

you raise an interesting point. The "but you'll get kicked by his friends" argument always comes up. Who are all these people going out by themselves and getting in fights with groups of people? Take some friends with you for god sakes.

And let me ask you this, If it is one vs many do you think that makes it *more* likely or *less* likely that you may endup on the ground against your will?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:00 PM   #45
statisticool
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Someone explained it to me like the following, feel free to disagree.

If we were to assign a score to the ability of systems to handle single and multiple opponents, we'd get something like:

ground systems
individual opponent: 1
multiple opponents: 0

non-ground systems
individual opponent: .5
multiple opponents: .5

Scores for each system add up to 1, but non-ground systems has some minute chance of fighting off multiple attackers.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:05 PM   #46
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

thanks for the invitation. I disagree. I know a couple of people who have survived group attacks due to ground fighting. One because he was able to regain his feet quickly. The other was in a large scale bawl and ended up with someone in his guard, choked him out and stayed underneath. He said the couple of guys that went underneath walked out unscathed, those that stood to brawl were pretty beat up.

And again you're making the mistake of assuming we're choosing one or the other. In a multiple environent you are much more likely to get taken down so ground skills become *more important* but NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SHOULD NECESSARILY BE YOUR STRATEGY.

Ah I feel better.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:10 PM   #47
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Here's what I don't get. Why the defensiveness. Someone asks if Aikido has a good ground strategy. The answer is no. Why to people feel the need to eqivocate that with "but you just don't go to the gournd, the ground is bad, Aikido is all you need."

If someone comes to my BJJ class and tells me they want to do some striking, I'd send them to a Muay Thai school. If they tell me they want to do some work with less competitiveness and dealing with energy flow, I'll send them Aikido. If they tell me they want to impress chicks I'll send them to TKD ;-)

Because I know what BJJ is for and what it isn't for. Just like when I taught Aikido I knew what Aikido was for and what it's not for.
So why do some feel like the answer always has to be "oh yes everything you want is right here in Aikido no need to do anything else whatever your goals"?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:17 PM   #48
statisticool
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Here's what I don't get. Why the defensiveness.
Why the misreading of defensiveness? I'm just pointing out that I've never seen any videos of BJJ on multiple opponents.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:27 PM   #49
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

See in the bjj world multiple opponents is solved by having your own gang. Gang warfare for the win!

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:42 PM   #50
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I don't think he is misreading, I think I also detected plenty of defensiveness, in this thread and many other threads dealing with similar issues.

People get defensive because they have devoted a lot of time to Aikido, and people don't want to think they have been wasting their time. People often get the idea of "the best" with out evaluating what something is "the best" at. People know that they like Aikido, and that Aikido has been good to them, and most of the people you will find in Aikido schools have not been in many fights, so they kind of think Aikido is fighting, or that Aikido has some kind of power to stop a fight from happening. So when you pose a question like this to a group that doesn't have much experience with fighting, there is going to be lots of confusion as to what we are talking about, and most think you are saying that they are stupid, or misled. I don't' think you are saying or thinking that, I think you are just trying to get people to think about Aikido and their relation to it, but you have to expect what you're getting. I know I've dealt with it many times myself.

And just for the heck of it, I'd like to throw in while Aikido "teaches" techniques for dealing with multiple attackers, have you ever seen an Aikidoka actually deal with more then one person who is actually trying to harm them? The techniques Aikido teaches for multiple attackers may work if you are armed, but against people who are near your size and ability level will not work if unarmed.

-Chris Hein
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