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Old 10-06-2011, 11:16 AM   #26
Keith Larman
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Graham, have you considered that the training with the tsuba allows them to do things that otherwise would be dangerous? Therefore it allows them to do more. And it allows them to train with the weapon the bokken is ostensibly standing in for -- namely a katana.

Of course there are many who don't wish to train outside their comfort level. Or to experience more direct aspects of martial training. To generalize and call it "laziness" is simply insulting to many who damned well know the difference. I've been on the receiving end of incredibly intense matched bokken work without the tsuba in place where the extremely high level instructor (thankfully) had the control to not hurt me. But it also changed the dynamics of the encounter. Doing it again with a bokken properly fitted with the tsuba changed it dramatically allowing it to be done at full speed and intensity.

 
Old 10-06-2011, 12:04 PM   #27
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Graham, have you considered that the training with the tsuba allows them to do things that otherwise would be dangerous? Therefore it allows them to do more. And it allows them to train with the weapon the bokken is ostensibly standing in for -- namely a katana.

Of course there are many who don't wish to train outside their comfort level. Or to experience more direct aspects of martial training. To generalize and call it "laziness" is simply insulting to many who damned well know the difference. I've been on the receiving end of incredibly intense matched bokken work without the tsuba in place where the extremely high level instructor (thankfully) had the control to not hurt me. But it also changed the dynamics of the encounter. Doing it again with a bokken properly fitted with the tsuba changed it dramatically allowing it to be done at full speed and intensity.
A good point made in the first paragraph. A good example of when it is useful, as long as those using live blades are responsible and quite competent.

To some experienced folk it may come across as insulting and to other experienced folk it may make them smile and be a pleasant reminder.

I too have been on the receiving end but as to using a tsuba because of it? Well, it certainly would change the dynamics but so would not being allowed to use one.

Each time the level of intensity as you put it is increased then it may be useful to use one but you won't know if you can protect your own hands or wrists until you can do the same without one.

Reliance on it therefore does lead to complacency and laziness.

Therefore I would put it in the category of a temporary aide.

Therefore I will also stand corrected on my first sentence for any so called 'offended' folk and restate it as: Reliance or using a tsuba as standard procedure leads to lazyness and complcency.

Regards.G.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 12:42 PM   #28
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Then I suggest both you and Mary take more time to think about it.
My first experience with bokken training was when I started training shindo muso ryu jodo with George Sawyer in, I think, 1993 or 1994...I'm not sure. We used tsuba, always. How much "more time" would you suggest?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Then again, maybe you could train in suits of armour.
Then again, maybe you could be a little less arrogant...but I doubt it.

Passive-aggressive comeback in 3...2...
 
Old 10-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
I guess that means that all the bushi who used tsuba and armor were lazy and complacent
I

How's that?

Last edited by graham christian : 10-06-2011 at 12:57 PM.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 05:21 PM   #30
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Andre Messier wrote: View Post
If you have ever been to a Chiba Sensei seminar where he taught bokken you probably have tsuba on your bokken today. He does a technique (I believe its called tsuri otoshi) where the attacker does a shomen and you do a slightly quicker shomen while pulling your hips. When learning this you get hit a lot OVER the tsuba, I wouldn't even want to try it without a tsuba.
Hi,
For what its worth Chiba Sensei doing tsuri otoshi, kiri otoshi against someone with no tsuba is not a good idea for the recipient of Chiba Senseis waza. Even with a tsuba one can easily get hit on the hand.
Of course you have to be able to respond to the attack and not rely on a tsuba. Learning to absorb the force applied by tori with ones total body is the trick.One needs to relax and try to neutralise the power of the strike.Even with a padded shinai one can still receive a stout whack on the knuckles if you are not careful.Motto-do not get hit!! Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 05:33 PM   #31
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I would say very simply that a tsuba makes you lazy. Learning how to protect your hands and knuckles etc. is all part of the training.

I would even extend this to any form of padding or armour meaning the down side is you get complacent and thus feel that part of your body is protected.

Regards.G.
Dear Graham,
Sorry to diasgree with you here.Using a tsuba is using common sense.How do you arrive at the conclusion that it makes you lazy and complacent?I agree that you have to learn how to protect your hands etc, but while your students are learning this process do you advocate a policy wherby a junior student get his/her knuckles wacked?I think not -hence the use of the tsuba. cheers,Joe.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 06:21 PM   #32
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Graham,
Sorry to diasgree with you here.Using a tsuba is using common sense.How do you arrive at the conclusion that it makes you lazy and complacent?I agree that you have to learn how to protect your hands etc, but while your students are learning this process do you advocate a policy wherby a junior student get his/her knuckles wacked?I think not -hence the use of the tsuba. cheers,Joe.
Hi Joe.
I don't mind disagreement. I will answer though.

Firstly I don't do dedicated bokken classes. I use it to demonstrate certain Aikido principles and allow students to learn certain principles of the sword.

Secondly I have done myself though. It may surprise you but I personally would not allow it except in certain situations as mentioned above.

Now, how do I arrive at these conclusions?

First is through my experience. In the threads above I have acknowledged others conclusions based on their experience which some have enthusiastically described to make their point.

My experience is the opposite to theirs so hence an 'apparent' opposing viewpoint. I was taught to never use one and thus through that experience could leave it there as the sole reason for my view.

I was told how and why which was all down to what I tried to explain in the previous posts, it leads to complacency.

Along with these explanations I was lectured on past battles and encounters in history from the view of where combatants got used to their armour or protection doing it's job so that when they come across a rival, another army etc. who could see how that protection was actually a weakness they then got thoroughly defeated.

The very basic and most common example of this complacency is from the view of bringing about bad habits. The most blatant being the person hasn't learned to move properly because he didn't have to.

Maybe I had a better teacher than most for by seeing the reasoning and examples given here I only see teachers who would crush your knuckles if you didn't use one. I hope this is people exaggerating otherwise I only see an idiotic teacher I'm afraid. My teacher would wrap the knuckles often and anyone not willing to face that was not considered ready for that training. However, there was no blood spilt and not crushed or broken bones ever.

Let me add another point here, my elbows got hit almost as often so does that mean people should wear elbow pads?

My personal opinion is I'm afraid it's all down to bad teaching. Striking someone without damaging them takes great self control and great weapon control and with that you should be able to point out waht was out to the student so that they can see what was wrong and know what to work on to correct.

With this approach I see no need for tsuba.

Regards.G.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 06:49 PM   #33
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Joe.
I must tell you about one incident that happened only a couple of months ago.

I had a visitor who had asked to train just to see so to speak. Near the end of the lesson he had enquired about the bokken so I was explaining it to him and he picked up a jo telling me he was 'good' with it.

I should have seen it coming for he had tried a few things during the lesson but suddenly he launched a full blown attack diagonally cutting to one side and as I met it switching to the opposite continuously. I was taken by surprise and found myself going backwards. As i recovered my composure I carried on the same defence walking foreward until I saw an opening. that ended that.

I did however get hit on the knuckle of my little finger on the right hand once. If I had had the slightest worry about getting hit in such a way I would have failed in what I was doing I have no doubt.

The strangest thing about the whole incident for me was me, my attitude. He had broken all the rules of the dojo and etiquette and also tried to actually harm me yet I was grateful for want of a better word. I had allowed it for one lesson in order to teach him a valuable lesson and was pleased with the result.

Such is life.

Regards.G.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 07:00 PM   #34
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi,
For what its worth Chiba Sensei doing tsuri otoshi, kiri otoshi against someone with no tsuba is not a good idea for the recipient of Chiba Senseis waza. Even with a tsuba one can easily get hit on the hand.
Of course you have to be able to respond to the attack and not rely on a tsuba. Learning to absorb the force applied by tori with ones total body is the trick.One needs to relax and try to neutralise the power of the strike.Even with a padded shinai one can still receive a stout whack on the knuckles if you are not careful.Motto-do not get hit!! Cheers, Joe.
This kind of supports what Graham is saying though. Nobody would get hit in the hands particularly hard if you trained at a speed and intensity level you could handle. People get hurt when they get sloppy, and that should tell you to slow down and work on precision.
 
Old 10-06-2011, 09:53 PM   #35
Keith Larman
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
This kind of supports what Graham is saying though. Nobody would get hit in the hands particularly hard if you trained at a speed and intensity level you could handle. People get hurt when they get sloppy, and that should tell you to slow down and work on precision.
But I think you and Graham are missing a critical point here. Swords have tsuba in "real life" and some techniques utilize the tsuba as part of the waza. Saying it is lazy or going too fast or sloppy *totally* misses the point and is frankly ignorant of the variety of things done in various sword arts and styles.

 
Old 10-07-2011, 08:10 AM   #36
Richard Stevens
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Re: Why no tsuba?

If your sword work doesn't require the tsuba for specific techniques or protection I don't see the need for it. From the Aikiken I've observed it doesn't seem particularly necessary. However, in the arts I practice, if I were to remove my tsuba prior to kumitachi I would have broken knuckles.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 08:51 AM   #37
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
But I think you and Graham are missing a critical point here. Swords have tsuba in "real life" and some techniques utilize the tsuba as part of the waza. Saying it is lazy or going too fast or sloppy *totally* misses the point and is frankly ignorant of the variety of things done in various sword arts and styles.
Keith, I know what you are talking about. I've done a bit of Itto ryu, I watch friends practice Jikishinkage ryu, and Saotome Sensei will every now and then dig out some aikiken waza that calls for entering, catching your partner's blade on your tsuba, unbalancing and throwing them.

it did not sound to me as though Joe was referring to techniques that actually use the tsuba though, it sounded like he was talking about techniques where your target is your partner's wrist, and the tsuba is being used to prevent the technique.

if you are practicing a technique where you cut the wrist or fingers or what have you, and your partner is relying on their tsuba to prevent their hands from getting broken, I don't understand what you are both trying to learn there. Uke is not letting tori learn how to hit the target, tori is hurting uke when he successfully performs the technique. Its a lose-lose situation there. I can't believe that's actually what's happening.

But still, if you are trying to learn how to use a tsuba, then they are appropriate.

If, however, you are relying on a tsuba to prevent your hands and fingers from being hurt during sword practice, then you are training badly. Get kote or hockey gloves or something.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 09:18 AM   #38
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
If, however, you are relying on a tsuba to prevent your hands and fingers from being hurt during sword practice, then you are training badly. Get kote or hockey gloves or something.
I don't get it. How is using kote or hockey gloves to protect your hands any different from using a tsuba for the same thing...which, help me out with this, is what the tsuba is designed to do?

Honestly, I really think some people are just trying to find fault with others' practice here...while, in general, being ignorant of what they're talking about. Not saying you specifically, Cliff, but this thread, wow.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 10:20 AM   #39
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I don't get it. How is using kote or hockey gloves to protect your hands any different from using a tsuba for the same thing...which, help me out with this, is what the tsuba is designed to do?

Honestly, I really think some people are just trying to find fault with others' practice here...while, in general, being ignorant of what they're talking about. Not saying you specifically, Cliff, but this thread, wow.
I often screw up the process of articulating what i am trying to say. it certainly does look like I was criticizing the type of practice Joe was describing, but ultimately I have not trained with Chiba Sensei and I don't know much about what he was describing. I suspect his characterization of that type of training was tilted towards his own badassness.

But still: once again, if you are training how to use a tsuba in some way, then you need a tsuba. I am talking about techniques where you use the tsuba to deflect or catch the striking sword's blade, perhaps as a means of taking them off balance and throwing them or something like that.

However, I do think there is something wrong with your training if you are relying on your bokken's tsuba to protect your hands from sloppy or imprecise technique that is not supposed to involve the tsuba.

A general example is where your maai is too small, or your cut is too shallow, and somebody's fingers get tapped. Somebody screwed something up, so do you want to ignore the mistake, or fix it? If you go "whatever!" and keep hacking away at each other, I think that really is lazy.

The description of Chiba Sensei's kiri otoshi is interesting because it doesn't sound like you are supposed to strike your partner on the tsuba, you are trying to hit their wrist. So in this case, it sounds like you want the tsuba there so you learn how to hit the wrist instead. But Joe implied that the tsuba prevents your hand from getting injured by the technique, which is confusing.

If you want to learn how to hit someone's wrist, kote seem to be indicated. But they are not really protective enough for use with bokken.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 10:27 AM   #40
Walter Martindale
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Mary:
I guess that means that all the bushi who used tsuba and armor were lazy and complacent

Graham:
I

How's that?

Is Mary using irony or sarcasm? I sometimes have trouble sorting the different between the two.. Good on ya Mary.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 10:33 AM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
But I think you and Graham are missing a critical point here. Swords have tsuba in "real life" and some techniques utilize the tsuba as part of the waza. Saying it is lazy or going too fast or sloppy *totally* misses the point and is frankly ignorant of the variety of things done in various sword arts and styles.
Hi Keith.
I do understand that critical point also. It doesn't detract from what I say. It is obviously necessary for such techniques as you describe.

I have observed personally the results of what I am saying ie: people so used to having one that they haven't got a clue what to do when their knuckles keep getting whacked when they haven't.

In these cases they had unawarely become complacent on that point, not their fault as they hadn't been taught. Led into a false sense of security springs to mind as a saying that fits.

Using the word lazy can be a word that shakes a person, can seem harsh, but I assure you it is quite usable for those who want to wake up. You know me on here as someone taught firstly by spiritual principles and Tohei style principles. I also have said how my teacher was old school, quite zen, and he would use such definite terms.

If he found I wasn't keeping centre, keeping one point, keeping zanshin, or even to use too much or sometimes any force he would reprimand in such a way....lazy. Quite a powerful and in the end indisputable word.

However such is that. One thing I also would like to say is my differentiation is to do with training, not combat.

I'm sure all past samurai or knights or whoever did training in their training gear and when they went into battle then wore the appropriate armour.

Meanwhile they could also add into training techniques done with armour or full armour. It all depends on the purpose of that training that day no?

Here's one more lesson I was taught to add to this mix. He would sometimes ask me to attack, however I wanted and I soon learned it was virtually a waste of time for as I went to I was already 'cut' This he described as true sword and that if you ever have to 'touch' swords it's because you are already too late or 'lazy'

Thus no Sparrying of any kind there and the lesson was correct motion defeats the sword albeit that would be very high level and involve no doubt sen no sen etc. When he went into his what we called 'samurai' mode he would say one motion, one cut, finish.

So all in all you are quite right in what you say when you say it depends.

Regards.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 10-07-2011 at 10:35 AM.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 10:40 AM   #42
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I often screw up the process of articulating what i am trying to say. it certainly does look like I was criticizing the type of practice Joe was describing, but ultimately I have not trained with Chiba Sensei and I don't know much about what he was describing. I suspect his characterization of that type of training was tilted towards his own badassness.

But still: once again, if you are training how to use a tsuba in some way, then you need a tsuba. I am talking about techniques where you use the tsuba to deflect or catch the striking sword's blade, perhaps as a means of taking them off balance and throwing them or something like that.

However, I do think there is something wrong with your training if you are relying on your bokken's tsuba to protect your hands from sloppy or imprecise technique that is not supposed to involve the tsuba.

A general example is where your maai is too small, or your cut is too shallow, and somebody's fingers get tapped. Somebody screwed something up, so do you want to ignore the mistake, or fix it? If you go "whatever!" and keep hacking away at each other, I think that really is lazy.
You may be overestimating the degree of "protection" that you get from the tsuba in these cases. IME (and fwiw, my teacher learned from one of Chiba Sensei's students, and the practice is as Joe describes), if the attack is successful, believe me, you're not saying "whatever" and continuing to "hack away", as you characterize it. You get, um, feedback. The tsuba prevents serious injury; it doesn't mean you never get hit.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
The description of Chiba Sensei's kiri otoshi is interesting because it doesn't sound like you are supposed to strike your partner on the tsuba, you are trying to hit their wrist.
Obviously. Why on earth would you hit an inanimate object that traditionally was made out of metal?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So in this case, it sounds like you want the tsuba there so you learn how to hit the wrist instead. But Joe implied that the tsuba prevents your hand from getting injured by the technique, which is confusing.
What's confusing about it? It keeps you...from getting injured. What's the hard part about that? Help me out here.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
If you want to learn how to hit someone's wrist, kote seem to be indicated. But they are not really protective enough for use with bokken.
Since you're fond of kote as a solution to being hit on the wrist, I wonder what you have to say about the use of the tsuba in kendo.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 11:32 AM   #43
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You may be overestimating the degree of "protection" that you get from the tsuba in these cases. IME (and fwiw, my teacher learned from one of Chiba Sensei's students, and the practice is as Joe describes), if the attack is successful, believe me, you're not saying "whatever" and continuing to "hack away", as you characterize it. You get, um, feedback. The tsuba prevents serious injury; it doesn't mean you never get hit.
Is this the thing we are talking about? It is what I think we are talking about but I am not sure.

Is the point to hit uke's tsuba, and use that to connect and put your weight on them? In which case this is purely an aiki exercise and it's not an application. Or, are you actually trying to hit their wrist?

If you are trying to hit their wrist, then you shouldn't be hitting the tsuba, right?

If you are trying to hit their wrist, are you trying to hurt them during training? What is the point of the feedback you mention? That is feedback that...what happened exactly?
 
Old 10-07-2011, 11:34 AM   #44
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Why no tsuba?

I don't think those who are justifying the use of tsuba are doing so because it offers a "cheat" or easy way out to any exercise or technique, which some are categorizing as "bad practice". The example of somebody going for your wrist and using the tsuba to block it is too limited. If it were that easy maybe the attack or the exercise make no sense in the first place. The tsuba is there, but that's not all that's saving you, imo, except of course when the technique specifically calls for using it -- but that's not what's being argued I believe. Exchanges are often far more complex than that, and sometimes in the middle of a move a weapon might slide towards the hand (I find it happens often against jo) and the tsuba is there to protect the fingers. If we had to slow down and tone down the power to bring those "mistakes" down to zero… it's honestly not worth it, and besides the point.

Like Keith said, real swords have tsuba. There is a wide variety of armored combat situations in classical weapons. I'm not an expert, but the reason for tsuba in some bokuto might be a combination of historical and practical reasons, or maybe it's as simple as having the practitioners use something that resembles the real thing (which have tsuba). Anyway, before making sweeping statements about whether to use it or not I say first consult experts on what is best for what you're trying to do.

How would you draw a sword inconspicuously without a tsuba? Consider that sword work might start with the sword in the scabbard.

Consider that the tsuba might work for you or against you. What can happen at different ranges?

Another thing to consider is how a practice weapon vs. a real weapon behaves on contact. Wood vs. wood, wood vs. metal, and metal vs. metal bounce, deflect and absorb power in completely different ways. Then you have wood weapons tapered with metal against these options. Have you tried all of the these? How is tsuba involved in all these cases?
 
Old 10-07-2011, 12:33 PM   #45
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
If we had to slow down and tone down the power to bring those "mistakes" down to zero… it's honestly not worth it, and besides the point.
Why would it ever be besides the point to hit your target?
 
Old 10-07-2011, 12:56 PM   #46
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Last edited by DH : 10-07-2011 at 01:01 PM.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 01:05 PM   #47
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Let me throw something else out. In our main headquarters aikido dojo there is not a single bokuto on the rack with a tsuba. We don't use them. We do aiki-kengi but we do not have anything within our curriculum that utilizes tsuba.

But... We are not training in swordsmanship in our style of aikido, at least not in a comprehensive way. We are training in Aikido and use the kengi to inform our movements, to train our bodies, to train our minds.

That said, we also emphasize effective cuts. Effective movement. I have even hosted an event in my backyard where I lent a number of very highly ranked instructors my personal shinken and let them cut tatami all afternoon. It was great fun, but the point was serious. It was about confirming things about cutting form, about distance, about a lot of things. Again, trying to keep things more "true" to the source.

But... We do not use tsuba there.

So I understand where some of you are coming from, at least I think I do.

But I would never make some general statement that using a tsuba is laziness. Maybe for those who are already lazy and sloppy in their practice, but that's like saying wearing proper eye protection with power equipment makes you careless. Maybe if you're an idiot, sure. Otherwise it is simply a good idea. It just depends on what you're doing. And that is the point here.

There are a vast number of things I've seen from a variety of styles that utilize that tsuba. Be it for stopping someone riding down the blade. Using that connection in grappling over the sword to control and/or throw. Using the tsuba as part of a pressure point in a leveraging move. Not to mention the purely practical aspect of how you release a katana from a tight saya for the draw without having to use two hands.

The point I'm trying to make is that the tsuba is one part of a large topic. For some the tsuba is integral to practice. That doesn't mean it is used all the time, but it is part of the tool and as such has a role at various times. The sort of casual statements that started this thread about laziness or sloppiness end up reading as being dismissive of the entire "operating system" of other styles. Heck, even within some styles of aikido that tsuba becomes an issue.

I've got a photo around somewhere with Toby Threadgill with the point of his bokken on my forehead. I had just tried to tsuki him with him holding his sword in a way that looked like I should have been able to get him. In the blink of an eye he managed to deflect my bokken and set that tip on my face. I've seen him demonstrate a *lot* of very interesting deflections and redirections with the bokuto. Incidentally they use tsuba on their training weapons.

I have also seen groups to the same with habiki (unsharpened real blades). And on a few occasions with the real deal.

If you are limiting discussion to simple practice of aikiken without much in the way of contact at full speed, sure, tsuba are often not used. But remember that aikiken generally lacks a huge part of a larger syllabus of techniques. For some of those things a tsuba isn't just a good idea, it is a necessity. Because swords have tsuba. And they use them for a variety of purposes.

And fwiw have you guys ever heard the term "kirikomi"? This is a so-called "battle scar" and can be found on blades and sometimes on tsuba. I have a 16th century wakizashi with two significant kirikomi on the mune. Sword polishers know *not* to remove these as they are signs of the history of the sword as well as a sign that the sword survived the cuts and impacts. The same is true of tsuba. Some tsuba have cut kirikomi on the mimi (rim). Those are either signs of the original maker testing the tsuba or of an actual "battle scar".

During the early years of sword manufacture many prized swords were fit with what were called "tosho" or "katchushi" tsuba. Tosho were tsuba made from iron by a sword smith. Katchushi were tsuba made by armorers (often hard to distinguish from tosho). The point was that these things were made to be tough and were considered important parts of the sword. Not just decorative, but functional parts of the sword.

Okay, I'm done now... Feeling much better.

 
Old 10-07-2011, 01:17 PM   #48
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Graham
You need to adopt a different tone or you will continue to lose what credibility you have left. Do you really think you have something to offer that people have not looked at before in weapons...wow!
Have you ever trained in Classical weapons?
Are you aware that the intensity and edge that classical weapons bring with them?
Do you have a clue as to the experiences of some of the people you are talking to?

"Severe injuries? Sounds like bad training if that's the case."
You don't know what you're talking about, Graham. I am not attacking you personally just recognizing a lack of basic sound information to the topic. I could line up authors and living national treasures, and Menkyo's and your own founder, but I growing increasingly convinced you would be unmoved.
There is a reality that you are totally unaware of in budo. You need to recognize that there are people here that you cannot even have a conversation with-you'd best just listen.
At least recognize there are people here who are your betters in budo. At least its safe here. I can't imagine you in a dojo with any number of about a hundred people I know from here. There is nothing you could do to stop them..nothing at all. Have some humility, man. It is they who are being patient with you.
Word to the wise...I hope.
Dan
Dan. I asked one question which the ones answering on the whole seem either unwilling to look at or unaware of. This is not a matter of those you mention or superiority. My question and indeed point is all about the possible downside to using tsuba with bokken I might add, not samurai sword.

Those who are as you say will recognise this point. It doesn't mean any more than what it says.

Tell me, do you think relying on tsuba to protect your hands always is right? Do you think the primary purpose for the tsuba was protection of the hand? Thirdly do you think that relying on it in bokken work to protect the hands could lead to something untoward?

By the way the main examples given on here were of my teacher and as I have said before he was great with the sword.

Regards.G.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 01:23 PM   #49
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 165
United_States
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Maybe someone should ask Kuroda what he thinks?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HrII...eature=related
 
Old 10-07-2011, 01:29 PM   #50
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 181
United_States
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Why would it ever be besides the point to hit your target?
That's not what I meant.

Again, taking the limited example of somebody trying to cut or strike your wrist, a defensive move would involve proper use of the blade, body movement, a possible counter, and other factors. The tsuba might or might not be involved. My point is that while the tsuba might offer some protection, it's besides the point arguing that it should be there or not because it's not an all-defining factor in every situation (it depends on what you're trying to do). Besides, the other person also has a tsuba, so if it offers such a distinct "artificial" protective advantage as some claim here, wouldn't that make it a fair match?

I don't know Chiba's sword techniques so you'd have to go ask those who do why they're using tsuba. That said, the one example shown in the video is not the only way your wrist could be targeted. In many cases, the tsuba is not going to save you or help you much or at all.

If your wrist attack is completely compromised by your opponent having a sword with a tsuba... what kind of sword training is that? It shouldn't matter. Any proper style or technique would consider the presence or absence of tsuba from the onset; so again, it's besides the point arguing that it should be there or not.
 

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