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Old 08-08-2001, 10:56 PM   #76
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
Location: Middle of nowhere in California 14 miles from Buellton
Join Date: Jun 2000
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hey mj?? hey CA?? hey JIM?? can I join!!! anyhway maybe we could have a vocabyulary section on this site and I could learn 2 things how to spell and raise my vocabulary skills!!..anyways..... just checking!

Dallas Adolphsen
 
Old 08-09-2001, 04:04 AM   #77
Paul van Leeuwe
Location: Netherlands
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Is Aikido weak?

I got quite some reactions from others on my post and I don't feel like rereading them all and quote nicely.

One guy complained that 'ju jitsu was mainly blocking, using power and starting a technique when the other already has firm hold on you'.

Sorry, I can't let that be said as a ju jitsu practitioner, you are only PARTIALLY correct :-)

If you are attacked by surprise the attacker will have a firm hold on you. You must know how to escape and counter. That's an important part of ju jitsu. I suppose Aikido has the same, as it's a selfdefense art.

For many leg throws, it's necessary to 'push or pull' the opponent on one leg mainly and then sweep it. Use an atemi to make it easier, never meet force with force! But then (I must btw say I'm only yellow belt but I saw other techniques in action) we get leg throws usually when somebody punches you. Grab arm, push under chin or at face and sweep. Then hammer your feet in his ribs. Perhaps the technique will be refined later. I must agree that you can't do ju jitsu without using some power (in my opinion) which is the basic difference between aikido and ju jitsu.

We are taught that dodging is much more important then blocking. Sometimes it's better to block as you can use nice techniques as a counter.

Some other guy complained that I did not practice aikido, and 'he lost his respect' or something. Sorry guy, I can't try them all. I talk about karate, boxing, muay thai, kickboxing and many arts but should I have tried them all? One day I will perhaps explore the world of martial arts, but I just feel that ju jitsu is the best one for me. It has techniques, but without being to complex. It has breakfalling, contrary to the 'standing arts'. It has grappling. And I'm not weakly built and I don't care that sometimes I need power. A little. I doubt I will ever learn to blend with the other ones technique well enough to use his power against him, or it must be a simple technique, and hey aikido used to be called aikijujitsu, doesn't it :-) ? The arts are quite similar.

About self-defense. I totally agree with the aikidospirit in one way: AVOID CONFLICT AT ALL COSTS! Friends in your life can be: fear (which makes you avoid situations where you get into trouble, e.g. bad neighbourhoods, drunk people, agressive people etc.). Common sense. Humility (think you can never beat somebody in battle and perhaps you never have to fight). Enemys are: panic (if you have to use your techniques then fear will become your enemy). Western proudness (friends saying: do you let him say that? Well words don't hurt...). Alcohol and other mind-altering things. When I drink I avoid trouble even more. I got a friend saying that 'it was impossible to get trouble with me'. I was proud of it...

IF you really cannot avoid battle, if you can't run away, if you can't talk your way out of it, if your wallet isn't enough for him and he wants to see blood, if you don't have a gun to scare him away, whatever, then my second rule is (the first one is avoiding conflict): DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY! When you have him in a lock, break something. You have done your duty if you have tried to avoid conflict. Locks are for training and they become fractures on the street. Just in case he might escape. Don't say I'd train better to apply the lock correct. I just don't take risks.

The best atemi might be (I usually wear heavy army-boots) to break his knee-disc. Okay he will never walk again as well as he used to do. So? He should have left me alone, and when he did not I have given him countless chances to run away. We are taught at ju jitsu to apply devastating techniques if somebody physically attacks you or grabs you. In self-defense only one thing counts: getting as few injuries as possible. The rest is nothing. The opponent has no rights and no value. Use a gun if you have one. Use a stick. Challenge him (hey if you drop your stick I will drop mine), then keep your stick and make sure he won't walk for half an hour.

I'm sorry if I sound cruel. I am not. As I said dozens of times: I want to avoid conflict. I don't visit discoes. I don't visit pubs where rough people come. If somebody brawls with me I will leave the pub. If somebody wants to kick me out because I violated the dresscode I will leave, even if I did not violate the dresscode. I will go somewhere else where I get no trouble. I don't walk alone on the street at night. I leave stuff of others alone. In contact with rough people I'm friendly even if they are not. And I'm a fast runner, just in case. I have done enough not to harm others and I won't get myself beaten up by somebody because I spared him where he didn't spare me!

I will get disagreements on this, I'm sure :-)

What is irimi? It's the aikido-answer to low kicks, but I have no clue what it is even though we certainly have similar techniques in ju jitsu (btw I also don't know japanese terms except some o-koshi or o-soto-kari or whatever).

One guy said that 'he did not miss punching or kicking' because he would prefer overpowering the opponent without injuring him. That's a fundamental disagreement between him and me then. 'Hey and what if your girlfriend attacks you in a rage of anger'. Difficult one... She should have learned to control his anger. Anger is rarely the desired way to come out of a disagreement. Okay in that case I will use the non-devastating techniques of ju jitsu. Ju jitsu is very complete and allows us to lock, pin and choke (a choke may easily get somebody to rest, I'm sure of that :-) ). Thinking of this now, I've found another reason why taekwondo, karate, kickboxing and other standing arts are very incomplete: some people you just can't hurt.
 
Old 08-09-2001, 05:08 AM   #78
Ta Kung
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Quote:
One guy said that 'he did not miss punching or kicking' because he would prefer overpowering the opponent without injuring him. That's a fundamental disagreement between him and me then. 'Hey and what if your girlfriend attacks you in a rage of anger'. Difficult one... She should have learned to control his anger.
I'm guilty of saying that... Ever thought about what happens AFTER a selfdefense situation? If you injure your opponent too badly, you'll get your pants sued of in court. At least here in Sweden (where it seems sometimes that the agressor has more rights then the victim).

And if the "girlfriend should have learned to control her anger", shouldn't everybody else? Besides, Aikido don't work on girlfriends... they bite and do stuff no-one ever thought possible!

But I agree with you to some extent. If for some reason, someone has to have his arm broken or face smashed in, It sure ain't gonna be me... But on the other hand, for me that wouldn't be the first, second or even third way out.

Have a nice day,
Patrik Eng
 
Old 08-09-2001, 05:37 AM   #79
guest1234
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choking girlfriends!!! girlfriends biting body parts!!!
I guess one of the reasons I'm in Aikido to learn to avoid attracting/falling for anyone who might attack/choke/bite me. And in any situation to avoid getting to the point in a disagreement that someone is so frustrated/angry/out of control that they resort to physical means of proving a point. I doubt my Aikido will ever be good enough to handle a bunch of attackers, or even one (NOTE: MY Aikido, not AIKIDO)...but I'd like to think I will avoid the situations requiring that superior skill.
Patrik, "Nicky" probably bit you because you gave her away
 
Old 08-09-2001, 05:38 AM   #80
guest1234
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PS, Dallas, my spelling is terrible, too, you'd have to see Jim for help on that
 
Old 08-09-2001, 06:24 AM   #81
Ta Kung
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Patrik, "Nicky" probably bit you because you gave her away
You think so, Colleen? Maybe she bit me 'cause I took her back?

/Patrik (who doesn't fight his girlfriend for reasons other then geting away from doing the dishes.... )
 
Old 08-09-2001, 07:20 AM   #82
NYFE Man
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Re: Is Aikido weak?

Quote:
Originally posted by Paul van Leeuwe
I got quite some reactions from others on my post and I don't feel like rereading them all and quote nicely. (Snip)

Some other guy complained that I did not practice aikido, and 'he lost his respect' or something. Sorry guy, I can't try them all. I talk about karate, boxing, muay thai, kickboxing and many arts but should I have tried them all? (Snip)
Just to be straight, (I think you were referring to me) YOU didn't lose my respect, the content of the POST did. I do think there's a difference. I know you can't "try them all," neither can I. But I also wouldn't try to argue with a (pulling one out of the air here) Silat guy about the efficacy of his art without at least trying it first!


Quote:
About self-defense. I totally agree with the aikidospirit in one way: AVOID CONFLICT AT ALL COSTS! (snip)

IF you really cannot avoid battle, if you can't run away, if you can't talk your way out of it, if your wallet isn't enough for him and he wants to see blood, if you don't have a gun to scare him away, whatever, then my second rule is (the first one is avoiding conflict): DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY! When you have him in a lock, break something. You have done your duty if you have tried to avoid conflict. Locks are for training and they become fractures on the street. Just in case he might escape. Don't say I'd train better to apply the lock correct. I just don't take risks. (Snip)

I'm sorry if I sound cruel. I am not. As I said dozens of times: I want to avoid conflict. (Snip)

Okay in that case I will use the non-devastating techniques of ju jitsu. Ju jitsu is very complete and allows us to lock, pin and choke (a choke may easily get somebody to rest, I'm sure of that :-) ). Thinking of this now, I've found another reason why taekwondo, karate, kickboxing and other standing arts are very incomplete: some people you just can't hurt.
I think that much of what you said absolutely fits in with many people's view of Aikido. You suit the level of response to the level of threat. If it's the drunken frat buddy, you don't break his elbow or choke him out -- but a nice pin may keep him safe until he sees things a little more cogently. If, however, one's well-being were threatened, Aikido does allow for "DON'T SPARE THE ENEMY!" A friend who introduced me to Aikido would show me techniques and at various points say "and if I were doing this for real, this is where I'd break your [insert joint or bone here]." I know his ability -- he's not just blowing smoke.

People study ALL martial arts for many reasons. To look at one subset of practitioners and decide on the art as a whole is like the adage of the three blind men experiencing an elephant.

Al Foote III
 
Old 08-09-2001, 10:23 AM   #83
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
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Talking

hey folks!! this might be way off subject of biting girlfriends and wether aikido sucks or not, but I have a questions for you all. one writer in black belt mag said that a person should only train a art for 6 mounts then move on to a different martail art. what do you think about this? the writer said in his defence that it takes an average of 6 mounths to learn the bacis and that is all you really need then you can move on and have a little of everything. again what do you all think.

for me i have been practacing aikido for 4 years and i still have trouble with the basics now and agian so i think it is bogus to train for 6 mounths in one art then go on to another.

Dallas Adolphsen
 
Old 08-09-2001, 11:37 AM   #84
Nick
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Wow... big time topic drift... though, with the given topic, that's not necessarily bad...

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
 
Old 08-09-2001, 12:49 PM   #85
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hey folks!! this might be way off subject of biting girlfriends and wether aikido sucks or not, but I have a questions for you all. one writer in black belt mag said that a person should only train a art for 6 mounts then move on to a different martail art. what do you think about this? the writer said in his defence that it takes an average of 6 mounths to learn the bacis and that is all you really need then you can move on and have a little of everything. again what do you all think.

I think you will have an abundance of mediocre skills. If you were to change your college major exery six months, how long would it take to graduate? Would any employers in your 5-10 chosen fields be interested in hiring you? Jesus, you might get stuck working as a guidance counselor!
 
Old 08-09-2001, 12:51 PM   #86
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
girlfriends biting body parts!!! I guess one of the reasons I'm in Aikido to learn to avoid attracting/falling for anyone who might attack/choke/bite me.
Honestly, you really don't mind a little nibble now and again do you?

Now, for some real martial arts. I'd run if I saw this heading my way

http://www.miniclip.com/dancingbush.htm

Oops! Looks like this is down. Pretty funny though and should be back soon.
 
Old 08-09-2001, 04:14 PM   #87
guest1234
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!!!!
Can't say, never tried even minimal cannibalism as a dating ritual...
so how do you guys make the words italicised?

Last edited by guest1234 : 08-09-2001 at 04:18 PM.
 
Old 08-09-2001, 10:22 PM   #88
Chocolateuke
Dojo: Muhu Dojo
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Question

hey CA what do girls do on dates.. you see i am gonna ask this gal out ( i was in 4 of classes with her last year...) and well am kinda scared so.......... ( this is not a joke) but this thred is making it all scarier...

Dallas Adolphsen
 
Old 08-09-2001, 11:12 PM   #89
Stuart
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Ok Ok....

Some of you guys are comparing tae-kwondo to kick-boxing?? Kick-boxing is real!! they wear gloves..a boxer and a kicker together........oweee!!!! No gloves and you are gone.

thats like comparing Judo to aikido, judo will win...... anyday!!! Judo has floor fighting, and guy's that's where it usually end's up in (and women).

You're challenges to fight are very funny to me. Will you pay for the plane fare or even a train. I cannot come anyway...... I HAVE a life!!!!!!

I will agree that steven seagal is quite sexy for a guy and he can fight for films..but only you know? Film's are not real... but guy's like the way he kicks ass ( and women too you know).
 
Old 08-09-2001, 11:38 PM   #90
Patrik Eng
Dojo: Billingens Aikido
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I think your confusing kickboxing with Thai Boxing! Guess wich art is "more real"?

Quote:
I cannot come anyway...... I HAVE a life!!!!!!
Really? And what is that, hanging aroud a forum telling other people what they do sucks? If so, yours is a life I don't envy. If not, well I guess we won't hear from you ever again. Right?

/Patrik Eng

Come to the edge - No, we'll fall!
Come to the edge - No, we're afraid!
Come to the edge - And they came and he pushed them and they flew
 
Old 08-09-2001, 11:59 PM   #91
Stuart
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patrik Eng
I think your confusing kickboxing with Thai Boxing! Guess wich art is "more real"?



Really? And what is that, hanging aroud a forum telling other people what they do sucks? If so, yours is a life I don't envy. If not, well I guess we won't hear from you ever again. Right?

/Patrik Eng
Your hanging around too buddy!


Now an quote....

a research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race.

How about you?
 
Old 08-10-2001, 12:17 AM   #92
Ta Kung
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Quote:
Your hanging around too buddy!
Yeah, but I'm INTERESTED in Aikido! I'm not here to make an ass of myself (not intentionally anyway).

As far as my health/stamina goes, I've got an 9 out of 10 on the army recruiting test... Sorry, but I don't know how to compare that to the system you (probably) have in the US. Let me just say that I don't have to catch my breath when walking up a stair.
And no, that's not thanks to Aikido. But then again, I don't practise Aikido to be a better fighter nor to dramaticly improve my fysical health. I do other stuff to cover those parts (gym, swiming, running and tkd).

It seems to me you're barking up the wrong tree, my friend. Most of the people here aren't interested in becoming an invincible fighter. As I said before, it's like telling an "old-car collector" that newer cars are faster. Do you understand what I mean?

Regards,
Patrik Eng

PS. The quote you had refers to ELITE kickboxers, so how "elite" are you or the AVERAGE kickboxer?
 
Old 08-10-2001, 12:47 AM   #93
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: aikido is weak

Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
I watched an aikido class and I must say that aikido doesnt work one bit. its very weak and fake.

Its very sloopy, and weak. I dont get it? Is this really a martial art or a joke? One punch or kick, and you guys are gone. Sloppy women and men doing it. What a joke.

Take karate or kikboxing for some real effective fighting.
I remember an old Zen story about a general who came to the Roshi asking about Heaven and Hell. The Roshi replied that the general was a silly old buffoon and didn't have a clue. The general, being outraged of course, started to draw his sword... The Roshi said "There is the gate to Hell." As the general understood he slid his sword back into the saya whereupon the Roshi said "And there is the gate to Heaven."

We should all be thankful for such a skillful fellow who can so effectively bring out our more beastly sides for us to examine. Perhaps we can all benefit from this. Colleen seems to be able to take the upper road and comes to this with compassion. Much better than the invitation I was tempted to extend.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
 
Old 08-10-2001, 12:47 AM   #94
MJO
 
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Aikido is weak

It's nice to see how one post can certainly stir up the proverbial "Hornet's Nest." However, everyone has their own reason for practicing aikido. "To each his own," if you feel it is weak. The goal of aikido is to maintain self-control in times of conflict. Hopefully verbal, before physical. I don't believe many aikidokas have ever peformed techniques to their "extreme" capability. Otherwise, we would all have to go to "rent-a-uke" and go through quite a few of them during practice.

Hate to advocate ego deflation, but, there is always someone out there who can kick your ass no matter how well-trained you are in the martial arts. However, I feel Aikido is an effective martial art (for many reasons already posted by others.)

I train at a dojo that incorporates Kodokan Judo, GoJu-Ryu Karate, and a Chinese internal art called Hsing-I with our study of Aikido. It's great to see how each of these separate arts blend into aikido techniques. I believe O-Sensei did say, "Absorb venerable traditions into this new art by clothing them with fresh garments, and build on the classic styles to create better forms." This doesn't make one better than someone who only practices aikido, but it helps the student to learn to strike, kick, grapple and use Aiki-principles to defend against.

Without having to further berate the original post author, I will quote from a old TV show, Leave it to Beaver. Ward told the Beaver, "Son, don't try to prove yourself, but improve yourself." Kind of silly, but I think it makes a point...Now, that's Aikido
 
Old 08-10-2001, 11:29 AM   #95
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Originally posted by Stuart
...a research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race.

How about you?


That's funny Stu. I train to make THE OTHER GUY sweat, pant, and run away.
 
Old 08-10-2001, 04:56 PM   #96
Mike Collins
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Yeah, well my Daddy can whup up on your Daddy any old time.

And asides kickboxin isn't as swell as kurotty or kong fu anyway.

An your a big fat juicy stooooopid.
 
Old 08-10-2001, 05:57 PM   #97
REK
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Red face Oh man.....

You know, I have to admit that when I initially saw this guy's cyberraspberry I got very hopeful. My wish was that no one would respond at all. How funny would that have been?

There is only one domain of existence in which this guy would change his mind, and it's not possible in an internet forum. It requires new experience. I don't necessarily mean an experience that would require a visit to the local apothecary. Colleen has been lauded (and I think rightfully so) for her reaction to him. New experience might mean (especially with regards to what may be seen as a primitive character structure) that this guy really listened to what Colleen had to say and respond to it. Well, it's clear he will not step onto a mat or make himself vulnerable to her personal acceptance. For our part, we are not responsible for convincing everyone that what we do is meaningful, useful or any other adjective.

To bastardize an old saw; let's give him nothing to oppose and he will leave on his own.

Rob

________________________
Mors certa, hora incerta
 
Old 08-11-2001, 12:33 AM   #98
stratcat
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Unhappy Sad, sad, sad...

Y'know, seeing posts like this makes me wonder... Every so often posts like this come around, and they get an excessively hostile response.

I'm pretty sure Stuart's initial inflammatory remarks went up yesterday or so. So seeing no less than 96 replies bothers me a little bit: why should we become so enervated by what he says? Certainly, he's entitled to his opinion, and if he doesn't like Aikido... well, that's his prerogative. Some of us don't like Kickboxing, or Muai Thai, or Krav Maga, or Aikinimpoju-jutsukai or whatever is the flavor of the month nowadays.

I get the feeling that we try too hard to prove to those who say they're the "Martial Arts Community", who, by the way, tend to have the spirit of Martial Arts mixed up with the spirit of destructive machismo, that Aikido "works" that "we can kick your butt" whatever, etc., etc. It's almost as if it's a cultural thing: for a Martial Art to be "real" it has to be overtly hard and brutal, and sometimes we find it difficult, as Aikidoka, to overcome this stereotype.

Live and let live, I say. I don't train to prove myself to others who have little or no idea of where I'm coming from, and I'm sure neither does the rest of us. Certainly, I'm not adverse to the idea of cross- pollination in the Martial Arts. Aikido has much to offer, and we can benefit just as much from learning other Arts, maybe even come up with new and exciting things. My teacher is a direct product of this type of pollination- he's trained in a whole bunch of martial arts, and gotten even dan grades (or their equivalent) in a several of them... And what does he teach? What is he leaving as a legacy? AIKIDO. Certainly spiced up with other things, but nothing that we think O'Sensei would dissaprove of. O'Sensei himself studied many different Martial Arts before coming up with Aikido. Things that make you go hmmm...

So Stuart, let me make you a proposal. First of all, understand that what you said is inflammatory, if not insulting- if some of have replied in less than courteous ways, understand that we too are proud of our chosen path, its history and tradition; just as you should be in yours. But pride is often harmful; it leads to blocking the flow of energy in ourselves, and we cannot learn or grow.

Second of all: remember to keep an open mind- any Martial Art worth it's salt often hides a lot more below the surface than is readily apparent.

I propose this: instead of challenging you to a "duel", why instead don't you come down to our dojo, meet with my teacher, talk amongst us and, with an open mind, learn why we are proud of this Art; then I'll go over to your dojo and learn why you are proud of yours.

It's not enough just to say why you are proud of "X" Art, remember, Stuart, talk is cheap.

A.

Andy Hertz.
"Standing before me
enemies my mind does not ignore
I take a step forward
and act!"
Morihei Ueshiba
 
Old 08-11-2001, 10:26 AM   #99
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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Quote:
Originally posted by mj
If you don't all SHUT UP right now... I will CRUSH all of you with my superior JUDO!
Your arts are all obsolete. You've wasted your lives!!!
You are FOOLS because you are not...ME.
I alone know all the answers.
I alone can beat everyone.
You foolish people.
BE QUIET!!!!
I AM TALKING SO BE QUIEEEET!!!
Only MY opinion counts, and if you DARE disagree with me. WELL.....
I will just keep REPEATING MYSELF!
So DO AS I SAY!
I hope everyone spotted that I wasn't attacking Stuart with that post.
Stratcast's post reminded me, that in the old days (sigh) violent confrontation was the way things were settled. You went to the Other Dojo, challenged the best student, if you won you could challenge the Dojo Master. If you won that you could take the dojo nameplate with you when you left.Injury and death were common. Most dojos were financially dependent on a good fighting reputation. People would not pay to be second best. Nowadays they all seem to have taken the politically expedient option of saying 'live and let live'.
Of course, this is the more mature (enlightened) 'stance' (hehe) to take, but in the old days, we would all be seen as weak
For all our talk of peace, and I never shut up about it
Are there any of US who has never pointed out that Osensei was undefeated?
This is just rambling, though. And I'm first to point out that my post isn't going anywhere.
hehe, long ramble

 
Old 08-11-2001, 11:41 AM   #100
George S. Ledyard
 
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Depressing

You know my usual reaction to these guys goes through stages. Of course like most of the "guys" my first reaction is "Oh yeah! Well come visit my dojo and we'll play a bit". Of course since I am striving to be some sort of civilized being and if nothing else a decent example for my students, I usually get myself back to a higher plane after a bit.

But, you know, I almost always end up a bit depressed by these guys. Think about it... They have so little going for them that they are willing to go on the internet and humiliate themselves in front of a WORLD WIDE audience just to get a little attention. It's kind of like seeing pictures of Biafran kids starving but on an emotional level.

You end up wanting to send an emotional CARE package but there isn't any way to do that. It ends up just making me feel sad (which is probably why I have the desire to thrash them in the first place because that is a much easier emotion to handle)

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
 

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