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Old 03-22-2006, 10:53 PM   #1
xuzen
 
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Are we not aggressive enough?

Hello all,

This is an observation I notice, not sure if it is widespread or not, but please do contribute.

Many people be them aikido practitioners or not, tend to associate aikido with being defensive. However, aikido practice is a two people practice, one take on the role of shite (the defender), the other as uke (the aggressor)

As such, with all the newbies, our training are geared towards defensive in nature, e.g, avoidance, blending, etc etc. Even our technical repertoire seem to be defensive in nature albeit superficially. With this is mind, my dojo lacks people who can really be a good uke, people who can give sincere "I am gonna rearrange your face, punk" type attack. In my dojo only a handful can do the job of a good uke and they all tend to be yudanshas. The rest of the practitioners are wuss when it comes to giving an honest attack.

My grouse is this: Are we too caught up with aikido being a defensive art mindset? Again, looking back at history, many of M. Ueshiba students were already accomplished MArtist in their own right before joining Kobukan. They know what a real attack is. Sadly in my practice, I have lack of people with such abilities.

So my question is, are new students getting too caught up trying to do the techniques and too little attention is being put to make students a better uke? IMO, being good uke is not just being good at ukemi, it also encompasses the ability to give hard committed attacks for shite to work with.

Boon.

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Old 03-23-2006, 01:54 AM   #2
Thalib
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

It is neither defensive nor offensive

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Old 03-23-2006, 02:55 AM   #3
xuzen
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Sorry, I had difficulty expressing myself with this. Let me rephrase my question again.

In your opinion and experience, are aikido practitioners thinking too much on how to become a good tori whilst neglecting on how to better themselves as uke.

In this context, a good uke is not limited to just taking good ukemi, but also the ability to give sincere and committed attacks.

Your thoughts please. Thank you.

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Old 03-23-2006, 03:00 AM   #4
Bridge
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

As a low kyu grade with other MA training, I am capable of giving a proper committed attack. (That said, I reckon anyone without any training can give fully committed attack if they really wanted to, even if it may not look "good".) I've got absolutely no problem attacking someone properly if I know they can handle it...

Unfortunately, my ukemi does't match my standard of attack, so it's not always practical.

It's OK to attack full pelt for the guys I train with on a regular basis as they know what my ukemi is like. With people who are new to me, I'm a bit wary with because, if I attack full pelt, they may well do the technique good and proper, and I won't be able to do the ukemi.

Don't know about the people you train with but it could be fear of biting off more than you chew?

At my dojo, I think we have only had a few occasions when we've gone through what the attacks are and practice them. And that was going up and down in lines.

Doesn't seem to have stunted the development of the senior grades though. The Ukemi bit, just seems to have come with years of practice with them.
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Old 03-23-2006, 04:13 AM   #5
eyrie
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

That's a bit of an odd observation, coming from a Yoshi-Ogre(tm) ....

Ignatius
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Old 03-23-2006, 05:02 AM   #6
Ronin007
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Hi,

The comment made about Ukemi made me think.
When I first started Aikido it wasnt the attack that made me nervous it was the fall at the end, in turn, made my attack became more sloopy, now i dont i always feel after ukemi my attacks, i feel/hope are slightly more meaningful.

Any Thoughts ?
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Old 03-23-2006, 05:54 AM   #7
ruthmc
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
my dojo lacks people who can really be a good uke, people who can give sincere "I am gonna rearrange your face, punk" type attack. In my dojo only a handful can do the job of a good uke and they all tend to be yudanshas. The rest of the practitioners are wuss when it comes to giving an honest attack.

So my question is, are new students getting too caught up trying to do the techniques and too little attention is being put to make students a better uke?
Yes

But there is also the fear of making firm friends with the floor, as mentioned previously. And some people have to get over a lifetime of conditioning that it is bad to try to hit someone else..

I'm strongly in favour of teaching ukemi skills to beginners at a much higher standard than is currently fashionable.

Put simply, Aikido works very well against a true attack. It doesn't work against a wussy or inconsistent attack. So I think we do ourselves a great disservice as tori when we don't train our uke to attack properly.

A true attack needn't be hard and fast, so there's no problem in using this to help to develop your ukemi skills. It takes sensitivity and common sense on both sides, just as learning to throw and pin does

The other problem that most uke encounter is that of the nervous tori. Most people are unaware of how much time they have to avoid an incoming strike because they have never played with this and pushed those boundaries. I have discovered two important things by exploring this: 1) You always have more than enough time and 2) Getting hit hard isn't that big a deal. It's fear of the unknown that you are dealing with, not fear of being struck.

So go push on those boundaries people!



Ruth
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Old 03-23-2006, 06:12 AM   #8
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

In our dojo, we have now extra "atemi lessons", with tsuki, uchi, geri, and blocks. The focus is less to learn about the vital points, but to know how to attack and to know how to apply proper counterstrikes.

It is easily said, "if uke does not move properly, I would beat him down", but that is not easily done. And even with more than 6 years experience in karate, there are new interesting aspects for me.

Our sensei saw the idea in Washington, D.C. at A.S.U., and as long as most students had good experience in other MA, he was fine. Now with a group of new real beginners, he thought it is really necessary.

In many dojo, who emphasize the "peaceful character" of the art, I have seen poor attack skills on a lower rank level and even in some higher yudansha levels, while it seems, that most aikidoka have to learn it from a certain level. There could be good arguments for learning the attacks late, but not to do not learn them at all.

And there are schools or styles, where the attacks are always part of the training.

Just my 2cts.

Dirk
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:01 AM   #9
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Hi Boon,

As a fellow yoshinkan practitioner I find your comments quite appropriate to the situation in many dojos. In particular, the dojo at which I practice has only a few people able and willing to give committed attacks. The reason, as mentioned by a few in this thread, is that most people as uke don't want to take hard falls or difficult ukemi. They would rather go through the motions and do a nice roll or flip out of a non-committed attack. The problem as I see it is that without a committed attack from uke as shite I find it difficult to work on proper ma, maai, and kushushi. If uke won't give a committed attack then there s often times no energy to capture and redirect leaving shite the only option to muscle the technique.

In summary I believe the lack of committed attacks from uke in large part are a result of uke's inability or unwillingness to do proper and necessary breakfalls.

I'm sure i will be flamed so I am not putting on my flame retardant suit.

Thanks for the post. I've been thinking about this for a while now.

Dan Botari
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:18 AM   #10
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
In your opinion and experience, are aikido practitioners thinking too much on how to become a good tori whilst neglecting on how to better themselves as uke. In this context, a good uke is not limited to just taking good ukemi, but also the ability to give sincere and committed attacks.
IMHO, yes.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:31 AM   #11
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

About bad breakfalls:
One could try to do fully committed attacks but not in full speed. That could help a lot. Of course, if you are sleeping, the attack cannot be committed, but if you just reduce speed to your level of ukemi or self confidence, both parts can learn much.

What does it mean, aikido does not work on ...

I'd say, this belongs to the other threads. Do you really mean: " if you want to attack an aikidoka, do it sloppy an wussy, so he cannot respond?"

If you want to learn a specific technique, you need an appropriate attack - because you are learning. If the attack does not offer energy, you have to be careful with using it, maybe you have to change the technique, which you are encouraged to in jiyu waza and randori, but not in kihon waza the same way. And if you are very good, you could get even the wussy uke to move in a way, that you can do exactly the required technique. Of course, I cannot But I can change from omote to ura or vice versa and I can change from shihonage to kotegaeshi, if uke does not give the right power or direction. Of cours in kihon waza, my sensei allows me o do it once or twice, but not the whole session

Another 2 cts


Dirk
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:40 AM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Ushiro Kenji Sensei attended the Rocky Mountain Summer Camp as a guest instructor last year (he returns this year as well). In an interview with Stan Pranin at the camp he was asked, from the standpoint of an outsider (he is an extremely advanced karate instructor), what the single most important thing would be that would raise the level of Aikido generally. He didn't hesitate at all when he replied that we needed to make our attacks better.

Ruth's statement about Aikido attacks being "committed" but not needing to be fast or hard is true from the standpoint of training a beginner but it isn't true at all in the sense of daily practice for someone who wants to attain some level of expertise in the art.

Most people doing Aikido simply have no real intention to strike their partners. This lack of intention changes the energy of an attack completely. In Aikido people are not beaten by the physical strike itself, they ar beaten by the column of force that is in front of the strike. You don't need to be hit by a strike to know it carries alot of energy; we all posess the ability to read how much energy an incoming object has. It is the collapse of the Aikido practitioner's energy field, his ability to maintain his forward intention and the corresponding shift to an attempt to "escape" from an incoming attack, albeit in the form of some Aikido movement, that is one ofthe most serious issues for many Aikido practitioners.

If people are not used to training with people whjo can strike fast and hard, with real intention, they can develop a completely false sense of what they know. The "entry" is the single most important element in Aikido.If you can't get in, you can't do your technique, period. You can know hundreds of techniques and not be able to do any of them.

The fact is that most people don't want to train this way. They much prefer to come to the dojo and have an enjoyable time. Getting your forearms bruised, occasionally getting hit, simply isn't most people's idea of a good time. Most people come to the dojo because it is interesting stuff and the folks are great to hang with. So they cruise along in their training and don't deal with this issue. You can find plenty of Nidan and Sanda level folks (someplaces even higher) who cannot perform their techniques when attacked with real intensity.

We generally start people off slow and gentle in Aikido. The problem is, when do we stop being nice and start to give them something closer to real energy? Do we start at Shodan? For someone who has been training for five or more years, that's a bit of a shock... So maybe we should start sooner. When you finally get down to it, you need to start right away when people begin their training. Sure, the faint hearted leave, but they would have left anyway once things started to get a bit scary. Being able to step right to the center of an incoming attack is central to the ability to do all Aikido technique. There is simply no point in going through the motions without any semblence of real intention. People just end up thinking they know something they don't.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:46 AM   #13
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, yes.
Lynn, I wonder, why?

In our rather young dojo, I am as 3rd kyu the dojo sempai. Usually we are three guys, with enough experiencce in aikido and other martial arts to be chosen as uke for sensei and usually in the same order.

But sometimes sensei chooses my for being uke for good attacks and the ability to take breakfalls, not for my good shite/tori techniques.

So if someone wants to have the honour to learn from sensei more often, he should work on his ukemi (including attack). And maybe if a sensei has the humble opinion that his students have a lack in playing the role of uke, it is his/her task to motivate them.

Well, probably you were talking of aikidoka in general and not about your students.

But it is a point every instructor - in a dojo or on a seminar - should think about.

I just once witnessed how Saotome Sensei treated a 6th dan, when the attack was just a bit sloppy or uke did not protect himself properly on a seminar in France. And all most of the several hundreds of participants changed their behaviour - a little bit and at least for this week.

Regards Dirk
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Old 03-23-2006, 09:14 AM   #14
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Somebody in this thread seperated "attack" from "ukemi". AFAIK< the attack is as much ukemi as the falling down.
I learned to give a committed attack from a 74 year old famale sandan. You just Do Not hit an old lady! Even know ing I couodn't possibly hit her, I was still attacking the air near her instead of really trying to hit her.So she laughed at me...
Three years later I am told my falling down skills have vastly improved, but apparently my attacking skills are so bad that sensei made me do jiyuwaza with a nidan for a long, long time the other day for the amusement of the rest of the dojo...
I thnk part of my sloppiness in my attacks could be cured by regular weapons practice. I can do bokken cuts all day but if I'm not doing them properly this is going to translate into my attack. But we have no weapons class...so now I am at least asking our "basics" teacher to include attacking practice into his class.

Q
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Old 03-23-2006, 09:14 AM   #15
SeiserL
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
Lynn, I wonder, why?
I couldn't agree more with Ledyard Sensei's comments. Excellent and to the point.

IMHO, because Aikido was developed with people who already knew how to attack from other martial arts, it was not necessary to include it in the original curriculum.

Now, however, that isn't the case. People start in Aikido with no background and still don't get the proper training.

Now, seeing and admitting the problem, gives us all the opportunity to find a solution; train with honest and genuine intent and intensity in all you do, in and outside the dojo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-23-2006, 09:46 AM   #16
cck
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

I would have to repeat the comments on overcoming what ever it is that makes me not want to actually hit anyone. I once really connected with nage's head and it took me months to feel comfortable doing shomenuchi again. I know that a committed attack makes a huge difference but it is a real challenge to deliver it. There's a trust issue in there somewhere, I expect - the more I get to work with the people in my class, the more comfortable I am going for them because I know they will move and that I can generally take the resulting ukemi. But with some, there is uncertainty and something else, which is then fully displayed in the interaction; a side effect of practice is anticipation, what you expect from various people. Personal relationships and all the stuff you pick up on subconsciously enter into the equation and that's hard to get rid of. I find that I do a lot of pretending sometimes.

I do not have much of an eye for openings, which makes it difficult to be flexible in both attack and response. This is likely a result of not actually wanting to hit anyone - I can make myself deliver a strike, but then I am done. I have to actively and intellectually learn to keep up the attack even after the strike is delivered; it is not something that comes naturally. So again, pretense can get me part of the way there.

In our dojo we do work on this. We also work on eliciting attacks from uke - being an aggressive nage, if you will. We do hear "well, in the real world, no, people would not do this, but in order to practice..." Every once in a blue moon we'll throw in motivation (for kata menuchi, for instance): "Take that, you SOB!" (a rather unusual form of kiai, I gather). Again, pretense or role playing. That said, no, we do not have sessions where we exclusively focus on attacks (or at least I have not been to one).
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Old 03-23-2006, 01:36 PM   #17
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

I agree many do not give a committed and for many it is because they either don't know how, are afraid of hurting their partner, or both (IMHO).

Fortunately coming from a MA background I knew how to give a solid attack and my Sensei makes me do it. When I first started training I wasn't sure if we were actually supposed to throw the attack with the intention of making contact. After a couple of Shomen strikes whizzed down cutting the air 3" or so in front of Sensei's face and he stood there not moving I asked "Is there something wrong with my attack?" and he answered "Yes, you aren't hitting me. If you don't hit me then I have no reason to defend myself." That cleared it up for me.

With students who can't handle a full speed shomen or tsuki I'll attack fully committed to make solid contact at about half speed or whatever they are capable of blending with. The occasional shomen to the forehead or punch to the chest is good encouragement to get offline. LOL

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Old 03-23-2006, 01:43 PM   #18
MaryKaye
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

I was practicing with one of the yudansha the other night, and he left me such a big opening that even I could see it, so I punched him softly in the stomach. He finished throwing me, and stood over me on the floor shaking his finger at me. In a loud voice, clearly heard all over the dojo:

"You ought to be able to hit me harder than that!"

This was not quite what I was expecting, so it was a useful reminder.

Mary Kaye
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Old 03-23-2006, 02:38 PM   #19
Charlie
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

This sounds like the return of a wonderful thread that is full of many outstanding points...

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8205

well worth the re-read in my opinion.

Charles

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Old 03-23-2006, 08:12 PM   #20
xuzen
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Wow, I thought I had a difficult time expressing my views when I try to form this thread, but the quality of responses here are very good. Thank you all. I will need some time to read and digest the opinions.

One comment made by G. Ledyard struck me.... "When do we stop being nice?". George-sama, I like this question very much. Thank you.

To the rest of the responders, I will read your post again and answer or offer my opinions where appropriate after I have formulated my responses.

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Old 03-23-2006, 09:05 PM   #21
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Are we not aggressive enough?
Aikido folks are not aggressive at all. We are mollified, timid, shy and are afraid to face even small aggression, no way to really hit somebody. If in the dojo will enter even a bit aggressive person, and sensei (by mistake LOL )will permit him to practice, 99% aikidoka will quit tatami immediately crying loudly.........1% will run to hide behind sensei's hakama…….

Nobody will practice with aggressive person. There is no way to teach aikidoka how to be aggressive, no hope at all.

Nagababa

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Old 03-24-2006, 12:34 AM   #22
xuzen
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Thalib wrote:
It is neither defensive nor offensive
I think so too.
Quote:
eyrie wrote:
That's a bit of an odd observation, coming from a Yoshi-Ogre(tm)
Not all Ogre are the same, unfortunately... sigh.
Quote:
ruth wrote:
But there is also the fear of making firm friends with the floor, as mentioned previously. And some people have to get over a lifetime of conditioning that it is bad to try to hit someone else..
It took me a long time to overcome this fear too, but now that I got over this fear, I feel my aikido play (especially randori) becomes more meaningful and enjoyable.
Quote:
Ruth wrote:
Put simply, Aikido works very well against a true attack. It doesn't work against a wussy or inconsistent attack. So I think we do ourselves a great disservice as tori when we don't train our uke to attack properly.
How then, Ruth do me make aikido work against wussy attacks? In my practice... we attack them first (e.g., atemi) and then execute the technique. Is this how it is done in your dojo?
Quote:
ruth wrote:
true attack needn't be hard and fast, so there's no problem in using this to help to develop your ukemi skills. It takes sensitivity and common sense on both sides, just as learning to throw and pin does
Agree, we can always start slow and progress with increasing intensity, but we must always start somewhere.
Quote:
ruth wrote:
The other problem that most uke encounter is that of the nervous tori. ...<snip>... It's fear of the unknown that you are dealing with, not fear of being struck.
I personally think after hitting tori a few times, they get accustomed to it and we can go on and up the intensity. But of course, we must always remember, not to purposely (with malicious intent) hit tori.
Quote:
dirk wrote:
In our dojo, we have now extra "atemi lessons", with tsuki, uchi, geri, and blocks. The focus is less to learn about the vital points, but to know how to attack and to know how to apply proper counter-strikes.
We tried to have such class, but with limited success. So, sensei in his infinite wisdom, ask us to hit each other with shinai to build up striking power. The kids love it a lot, it is such fun to see kids beating each other with shinai and defending it with shinai. I am impress at how fast they learn on their own the concept of power, maai, evasion and timing when fighting each other with the shinai. Another way he said to build up our strike is to slam the mat hard with our palm each time we take ukemi. In a short time, one of our teenager ex-wussy student, became one of our hardest hitter around.
Quote:
dirk wrote:
Our sensei saw the idea in Washington, D.C. at A.S.U., and as long as most students had good experience in other MA, he was fine. Now with a group of new real beginners, he thought it is really necessary.
I think Osensei was lucky back then.... he had hard hitters like Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki et al to give him realistic attack to work with. Not all of us are so lucky.
Quote:
As a fellow yoshinkan practitioner I find your comments quite appropriate to the situation in many dojos. In particular, the dojo at which I practice has only a few people able and willing to give committed attacks. ...<snip>...In summary I believe the lack of committed attacks from uke in large part are a result of uke's inability or unwillingness to do proper and necessary break-falls.
I see the problem is everywhere... like I mentioned earlier, these practitioners do not know what they are missing from training if the do not go full heartedly.

To George-sama, once again let me tell you how meaningful your post is, in particular the phrase... "When do we stop being nice to each other".

Also, you mention entry. Let me share something wonderful which happen in my recent training. I was leading the class one night and I wanted to show shomen uchi ikkajo ichi (irimi version) osae. I asked a fellow yudansha to be my uke while I become the tori. My uke was already launching his attack midway when I was distracted by a newbie asking me a question. Without looking at my uke, I just automatically raised my arms in the classic Yoshinkan Hiriki no yosei ichi movement and moved instinctively using the shumatsu dosa ichi movement. What happen next was brilliant... Uke face planted even though I only moved slightly. I think the newbies were very impressed. I was impressed myself and was impress by how well my uke gave me a sincere attack
Quote:
dirk wrote:
In our rather young dojo, I am as 3rd kyu the dojo sempai. Usually we are three guys, with enough experience in aikido and other martial arts to be chosen as uke for sensei and usually in the same order.
But sometimes sensei chooses my for being uke for good attacks and the ability to take break-falls, not for my good shite/tori techniques.
Speaking of being uke, I love to take ukemi from my sensei. His throws are done with focused power; they are crisp, sharp and to the point. Although to the outsider, it may look like it hurts, actually it does not. The falls are really very invigorating, actually.

The type of ukemi which I hate to take are from not so noobie players. They try to throw you but these noobs tend to have a lack of confidence, they will try to hold back, waver, be indecisive, stumble, fumble which makes it even more dangerous for uke to take ukemi. They are a danger to me and themselves.

Quote:
seiserL wrote:
IMHO, because Aikido was developed with people who already knew how to attack from other martial arts, it was not necessary to include it in the original curriculum.
It is so true... but the new breed of students are so different from the times of Osensei. I did not learn how to attack properly until many many years later on.

Quote:
Charlie wrote:
This sounds like the return of a wonderful thread that is full of many outstanding points...
So sorry Charlie if my points have been covered. I was not one of the follower on that particular thread.

Quote:
The unpronounceable one wrote:
Aikido folks are not aggressive at all. We are mollified, timid, shy and are afraid to face even small aggression, no way to really hit somebody. If in the dojo will enter even a bit aggressive person, and sensei (by mistake LOL )will permit him to practice, 99% aikidoka will quit tatami immediately crying loudly.........1% will run to hide behind sensei's hakama…….
Nobody will practice with aggressive person. There is no way to teach aikidoka how to be aggressive, no hope at all.
You are being silly... go to the corner of the dojo and do 1000 ken suburi on each hands, followed by another 1000 jo tsuki. That will make you aggressive....

p/s: We have a senior visiting practitioner who would visit us once in a while. He is a master of Kansetsu-waza. His locks are very jujutsu'esque and like NagaBaba said.... many of our students tap very enthusiastically and very quickly. I am also one of them. I will also very enthusiastically run and hide behind sensei's hakama. Many students are very afraid to attend his class. Aiki-jutsu is no fun at all....

Thank you all once again for replying.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 03-24-2006, 01:19 AM   #23
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Well I don't know if aggression is what we are lacking, or need more of. Less fear might be what we really need. Not just fear of physical injury and pain, but also the fear that our ego might take a beating. Few Aikidoka want to practice against resistance, few are willing to try their technique out for real and see if they can really throw a white belt uke, or if it's just their hakama that's doing all the work. We've all been in several situations where we didn't want to embarrass a high ranking Aikidoka, so we would just jump in the air and make his technique look beautiful. Many of our egos couldn't take seeing our technique fail, so we don't try, and we don't ask uke to give us a hard time.

Another problem is that Aikido seems to be a one sided practice, there is one guy who only attacks, and one guy who does all the throwing and controlling, it's hard to consistently give a big "committed" attack when you are just walking in to be thrown. Many times in randori you will eagerly walk into something that you would never fall for in real life, it can breed sloppiness. Even as you progress, and you learn how to give huge committed attacks and move around the energy (once you've learned how to avoid even the biggest set up), we still end up rolling away, or jumping in the air because we are all committed to someone falling down at the end of the technique. I've seen many a high ranking instructor get truly mad when they encounter a crafty uke who won't take the fall, we're programed to fall and if someone doesn't fall they must not be doing Aikido.

My resolution of coarse (as with my resolution to everything Aikido) is to look at Aikido as a weapon practice, and not an unarmed one. There will be no more problems with "wussy attacks", bad uke's, or one sided egocentric practice.

-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 03-24-2006 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 03-24-2006, 03:13 AM   #24
kaishaku
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

I was usually a pretty vigorous uke when training with competent nages. In fact at some point I took great pleasure in it since it was my only opportunity to be aggressive within aikido training.

In a similar vein to Chris' post that's sitting on top of this one, although I often felt sufficiently controlled, there were some points as uke that I wanted to try to wrestle out of things, but I felt it would be discouraged. (Actually, I once put my instructor in a juji gatame armbar during a demonstration....)

Anyhow, I think I would have appreciated practice against uncooperative uke. More randori maybe.

Last edited by kaishaku : 03-24-2006 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 03-24-2006, 05:51 AM   #25
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
How then, Ruth do me make aikido work against wussy attacks? In my practice... we attack them first (e.g., atemi) and then execute the technique. Is this how it is done in your dojo?
Hi Boon,

I have absolutely no idea how to do Aikido with wussy attacks! Sure I can muscle in and throw, but that's not Aikido IMHO. So I will say that I can do techniques against wussy attacks, but I cannot do Aikido.

A wussy attack has no intention to hit, therefore no conflict can arise from the encounter unless I (as tori) intend to attack uke instead. Aikido could then occur if uke defends himself against my attack.. But then we have reversed the roles and I end up always being uke. Aikido is the resolution of conflict - so no conflict, no Aikido necessary

Perhaps this is why we all end up muscling the techniques, because as tori we have to provide the energy that uke is lacking

Thoughts anyone?

Ruth
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