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Old 07-20-2006, 12:33 PM   #26
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Hi George,

Having met Genie only once I have only a small sample but I can feel some sympathy for any opponent she engages. I look forward to spending more time with you all when I get moved up there.

This subject is difficult for anyone that is still caught up in "fighting" or worrying about winning and losing. It is, and has been for some time, the largest part of my practice. I enjoyed your posts and look forward to more hands on time together.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 07-20-2006, 06:42 PM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Hi George,

Having met Genie only once I have only a small sample but I can feel some sympathy for any opponent she engages. I look forward to spending more time with you all when I get moved up there.

This subject is difficult for anyone that is still caught up in "fighting" or worrying about winning and losing. It is, and has been for some time, the largest part of my practice. I enjoyed your posts and look forward to more hands on time together.

Best regards,
Hi Chuck!
Do you have a time frame for settling up here? I am very excited about this, I must say...
- George

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:14 PM   #28
Rocky Izumi
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Reflect (if you will ) on kote-gashi. In aikido we tend to step out of the way and draw the opponent through and then throw.

Noticeably in other martial arts this is often done with a smaller movement where the hips (but not the feet) move, the wrist is grabbed and forcibly bent back. Indeed, if the feet move, it is usually a single step to enable a sweep.

Even in Kung-fu there is less foot movement than aikido. It strikes me (pardon the pun) we are far more dependent on intuition to enable us to make the movement as it is slower to move your whole body than it is just to stay planted and twist the hips. The later technique being much faster (and also much quicker to learn).

Now I would agree that the aikido movement is far more advantagous (esp. in mutliple attack situations and in retaining balance), but at beginning level, and from a practical stand-point, surely more speed can be developed using the latter technique? i.e. I could well believe that a top martial artist would tend towards the whole body movement, but those students who aren't full time - surely its more advantageous training with the latter method?

What are your feelings?
I believe that speed during combat is more a matter of perception. According to Einstein, speed is relative. Another factor in the speed of a technique is the additive nature of speed. Finally, there is the issue of acceleration.

Perception of Speed. A person who is able to see more details between two points in time will see movement as being slower than someone who sees less detail. For instance, in combat situations where one tends to focus in on the apparent danger and ignore outside information, one sees more detail in the focus area and time seems to slow down, making things happen in slow motion. If one is distracted and does not see the danger situation, it happens as if instantaneous and the perceiver will comment that things happened so fast that they didn't know what happened. If you are able to distract Uke during a technique using something like movement, the Uke perceives the technique as happening quite rapidly no matter how slowly it is done. Speed is relative. It is relative to those things that are occurring around it.

Speed is Additive. Like a jet taking off from an aircraft carrier, you can increase speed of something by increasing the speed of launching platform and the speed of the air relative to a fixed point. If the launching platform is going at 60 kph + the wind is going at 40 kph + the catapult pushes the plane at 160 kph = then the velocity of the jet taking off is actually 260 kph. The plane sitting on the deck ready for takeoff is actually already moving at 100 kph. In doing a technique by moving the feet as well as the hips, the velocity applied in the technique is that of the feet combined with the hips. No matter how fast your hip technique is, you can always increase the speed of a technique by adding in movement of your feet.

Acceleration. Acceleration is the change in speed. A technique like kotegaeshi which changes Uke's direction during application of the technique, if one is able to have the Uke moving rapidly in one direction before changing direction, the acceleration applied in the technique is much higher than if the Uke is standing still. A rapid acceleration in the opposite direction will increase the perception of speed by the Uke. The most rapid acceleration will occur when movement changes 180 degrees. To achieve a 180 degree change in direction, a larger circle of movement is better as the angles of change is smaller, closer to attaining a straight line. When the technique is applied, the differential speed or acceleration is much higher because the angle of change is closer to attaining 180 degrees. Bigger circles, the faster the Uke's perception of acceleration during application of technique.

My point is that larger circles will appear to Uke as involving faster movement and higher acceleration in application of techniques. How fast you think you move as Nage is unimportant. Actual speed of Uke is moot. It is what Uke perceives as the speed of the technique that is important. In determining the force applied in a technique, it is the acceleration that is more important since force applied = mass x acceleration.

That is a scientific rationale for larger movements in the application of Aikido techniques.

On the other hand, I could also just say we want larger movements because my Shihan said so.

Rock
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Old 07-20-2006, 07:24 PM   #29
DonMagee
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:

You can see Ushiro Sensei do this. He projects his intention outwards and then moves forward in an instant to the spot at which he now owns the space between you. There simply is no forward movement you can make to attack him without being struck yourself. It's as if he has joined his will to yours and you can't act separately any more. He actually won a full contact bout in Europe by doing this to a Kung Fu guy and backing him off the mat repeatedly. The guy wasn't able to throw a punch.
Why would a guy be afraid to get hit in a full contact fight? You would be think he would of accepted the fact he had to get hit and just moved in. Either that or I have a very strong will because even when I feel overwhelmed with no way to attack safely, I just say screw it and attack.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-20-2006, 08:12 PM   #30
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Why would a guy be afraid to get hit in a full contact fight? You would be think he would of accepted the fact he had to get hit and just moved in. Either that or I have a very strong will because even when I feel overwhelmed with no way to attack safely, I just say screw it and attack.
This is precisely the difference between sport martial arts and combat. When you make potentially lethal techniques illegal, you put the emphasis back on being tough and being able to "take a punch".

The concepts I am talking about have more to do with traditional martial arts in which the consequence of getting struck is that you are dead. That's why I say that sword is really the place where you can more easily see these principles in action. Generally, folks don't require as much imagination to understand that the consequence of a mistake with the sword is that you are dead.

(You can see the difference, even in a sport martial art, if you compare the heavy weight fights to the lighter dividons. The lighter guys can't hit hard enough, usually, to end a fight with one strike so there is alot more "action". But one hit from a 300 lb boxer can be a fight ender, so they are much more conservative... less action but more strategy)

Anyway, that's why I have stated elsewhere that, if you gave those guys in the "Octagon" knives, you would see a whole different body type, an entirely different attitude, etc. It would be a matter of survival to start operating on a more inutitive basis.

It is absolutely possible to cut your consciousness off and ignore all these subtle signals being given off by the opponent. The problem with doing that is that when you do so you are totally shutting down the "intuition" which is here under discussion. If you are already faster, stronger, and tougher than the opponent you can certainly get away with this. But it won't work against anyone who is faster than you, stronger than you, or of greater skill than you.

So this actually brings us back to older discussions about whether Aikido "works". As we do it in the dojo, it is an art, an investigation into principle. There are a set of agreements about how the uke and nage interact which allow us to isolate various principles inorder to understand them and program our bodies to react in a certain way. Actually, most traditional Japanese martial arts use this premise in their training. It is Kata based.

"Fighting" is different. It is real. That atemi you just launched is a weapon that can kill or maim you. Look at Shioda Sensei's fight in Shanghai during WWII. The first guy through the door got a broken bottle in the face. That is that atemi you've been throwing in your waza all these years, but that was REAL. The next guy threw a kick and Shioda broke his leg. That leg break is implicit in all those techniques you've done against kicks but we throw off those because we don't want to injure our partners.

I strongly maintain that the whole logic of Aikido is really based on weapons and that it isn't really an empty hand art. If one treats it as some not very effective form of the UFC, one cannot possibly discover the subtle principles that are at work in the art.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-21-2006, 06:36 AM   #31
DonMagee
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Interested explaination, but it didnt' answer my question. He was in a full contact bout...was this with weapons? Otherwise its safe to assume it was a competition, and thus should of had rules and thus your whole explaination does not apply.

As for real life, and aikido being a weapons art, that is a fine viewpoint. On the street you dont know if someone has a weapon or not. This is why I finally broke down and got my conceal and carry permit. Now, I no longer need to worry about being ready for a hand to hand street fight.

Back to the unarmed fight. Asssuming it was possible to know the other person does not have a weapon (lets say a match in a 3rd world country where the only rule was that they can not use weapons) I would have no problem getting hit. Its not that I ignore the subtle signals given off by my opponenet, instead I choose to strike and decide to get hit. Obviously you dont choose to take a hook to the face by a guy who is 100 pounds heavier then you, but there are choices you can make to protect your most vital areas. Its not about being tough enough, or faster or stronger, its still about being smart, but its also about accepting that this is a fight, and you can not expect to be untouchable. This makes me wonder if most aikidoka carry weapons on them, because you assume your first strike will kill, and its been my experiance that without a weapon, its not going to happen. In fact I have taken death strikes from people before. I've had a guy with a strike that was suppose to 'shatter my ribcage' and another knife hand strike to my sternum to rip out something or another (It was funny to watch him nurse those fingers), and finally, I have taken the elbow to the spine. I'm going to say short of breaking my neck, choking me to death, or crushing my throat (two of which are very hard to do) your going to need a weapon to kill me in a single strike. Potientially a blunt object, gun, or a sword (2 of the three are going to be hard to hide) This is why I find it acceptable to accept the strike and continue to engage.

I agree that aikido is a weapon based art. I have to agree because the empty hand attacks used in the training would be poor for teaching otherwise. Put a sword or staff in their hand and it makes sense. But that was not the point in question, my point was that in a full contact bout, the fighter was so afraid to enter he backed up and lost. This actually goes against your post that says in sport, the person would be trained to take the punch, vs the street. This kung fu guy could not of been a halfway good sport fighter then, or this was not a sport match. Unless I'm mistaken and this was a weapons match.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-21-2006, 06:58 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Or unless you have no clue at all about the power with which Ushiro Sensei hits. While mostly kidding, (of course fighters take hits, and of course unarmed hits are rarely fatal to conditioned fighters), there are always choices to be made.

Quote:
This is why I finally broke down and got my conceal and carry permit. Now, I no longer need to worry about being ready for a hand to hand street fight.
If you think carying a gun makes you safe, that's a huge mistake. In some ways, it actually can make you more vulnerable, especially if you don't have the correct mindset, and aren't trained in weapons retention. Give someone 20 feet away a knife and serious intent...and if your gun isn't drawn already, there is a good chance you are toast.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-21-2006, 07:08 AM   #33
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Or unless you have no clue at all about the power with which Ushiro Sensei hits. While mostly kidding, (of course fighters take hits, and of course unarmed hits are rarely fatal to conditioned fighters), there are always choices to be made.



If you think carying a gun makes you safe, that's a huge mistake. In some ways, it actually can make you more vulnerable, especially if you don't have the correct mindset, and aren't trained in weapons retention. Give someone 20 feet away a knife and serious intent...and if your gun isn't drawn already, there is a good chance you are toast.

Best,
Ron
So your saying I should carry a knife?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-21-2006, 08:12 AM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: intuition vs. speed

No, I'm saying that no defense is perfect, and that to think there are not trade-offs in any given situation would be a mistake.

Actually, I thought about what I wrote while on the can, and how it may give the impression that I thought you were in some way 'unprepared'...that is not the case.

Sport fighing & conditioning + TMA + handgun = pretty darn good defense. Better than 99.9% of the population I'd imagine, and definately better prepared than I.

Best,
Ron (now all you have to worry about is driving to work in the morning and that Mac truck coming...look out!)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-21-2006, 08:52 AM   #35
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Re: intuition vs. speed

I actually dont carry. I got the permit so I could carry if I choose to. If I was going somewhere I concidered dangerous I will wear it, but wearing it normally makes me feel like i'm walking around with the intention of shooting someone. I reason for brining it up is to comment in a round about way that the best way to be prepared for a weapon is to have a weapon. I'm not a big fan of most unarmed vs weapon techniques. I find most of the attacks too unrealistic (this is in reference to knife and gun disarms, sword attacks are usually more realistic) and I have yet to see one where I didn't feel I could cut or shoot the person attempting the disarm or that the disarm would not of worked had the attacker employed a realistic attack.

To get back on topic with intuition and speed, my main point was in the example I singled out, the kung fu fighter was not properly trained. He has the sense (intuition) that he was in danger, yet he didnt' have the phyisical fortitude to press the fight. This is important in real life as well as in the ring. If you are in serious danger, lets say a person is walking at you with the intention of killing you and raping your wife, you can't go with that feeling that your attacks wont get though. You have to force yourself to take that chance and press the fight if you want to have a chance to survive. Sure, you might die, but you might not.

Last edited by DonMagee : 07-21-2006 at 08:55 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:28 AM   #36
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I agree that aikido is a weapon based art. I have to agree because the empty hand attacks used in the training would be poor for teaching otherwise. Put a sword or staff in their hand and it makes sense. But that was not the point in question, my point was that in a full contact bout, the fighter was so afraid to enter he backed up and lost. This actually goes against your post that says in sport, the person would be trained to take the punch, vs the street. This kung fu guy could not of been a halfway good sport fighter then, or this was not a sport match. Unless I'm mistaken and this was a weapons match.
No, it was a sport match, although it was full contact. So if you have some reason to believe that the guy standing across from you could possibly take you out with one punch, then it becomes very much as it would be with weapons. Apparently, this Kung Fu fellow sensed enough pwoer and intention in Ushiro Sensei that he took the threat seriously...

Anyway, there are countless stories around about this particular idea. There were a number of people of stood in front of O-Sensei and felt rooted, unable to attack. I am very interetsed on the dynamic and have been playing with it. I think it is very useful from the Aikido conflict resolution standpoint. If you can effectively project such strong and clear intention outwards, many potential encounters will end with the other guy deciding to go away.

As an aside, for all of this to really connect to reality from a fighting standpoint, one really needs to study atemi waza to the point at which he has a solid repertoire of strikes which would either kill, knock out, or disable in one blow. I only know a very few. It's not an area which I am pursuing in depth at this point as I really don't anticipate using my Aikido for self defense anyway. I am more likely to get killed in a car crash...

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:05 AM   #37
markwalsh
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Interested observation re speed from watching Meido Moore
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:10 AM   #38
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Re: intuition vs. speed

..Sensei last weekend. Someone said, he's very quick (like lightening) how does he do it? My guesses were:
No preparatory or unnecessary movements, he's very relaxed and has complete familiarity with the techniques.
I'm still thinking about this, but it was interesting to me that his speed seemed a result of these other things.

Apolgies for the split post.
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:14 AM   #39
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Re: intuition vs. speed

"what you're talking about is what sports scientists and coaches sometimes call "speed of anticipatation"."

Philip - Thanks for the science - can that intuitive capacity be trained?
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:50 AM   #40
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
As for real life, and aikido being a weapons art, that is a fine viewpoint. On the street you dont know if someone has a weapon or not. This is why I finally broke down and got my conceal and carry permit. Now, I no longer need to worry about being ready for a hand to hand street fight.
If you have the mindset that while carrying concealed you don't have to worry about being ready for a hand to hand fight, then, well, you're probably going to end up dead in a fight.

21 feet. That's the distance someone with a knife can reach a law enforcement officer and stab him without getting shot. Remember, LE have a weapon outside in a holster that's easy to get to, not concealed somewhere under clothing.

If you don't believe me, do some research. It's out there. I've talked to people in LE who've tried it, too. 21 feet or less is death by knife if all you do is go for your gun.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Its not that I ignore the subtle signals given off by my opponenet, instead I choose to strike and decide to get hit.

(and)

I'm going to say short of breaking my neck, choking me to death, or crushing my throat (two of which are very hard to do) your going to need a weapon to kill me in a single strike. Potientially a blunt object, gun, or a sword (2 of the three are going to be hard to hide) This is why I find it acceptable to accept the strike and continue to engage.
Just have a question. Have you ever trained with someone who is good at kali?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I actually dont carry. I got the permit so I could carry if I choose to. If I was going somewhere I concidered dangerous I will wear it, but wearing it normally makes me feel like i'm walking around with the intention of shooting someone. I reason for brining it up is to comment in a round about way that the best way to be prepared for a weapon is to have a weapon.
Hmmmm ... you might want to reconsider your reasons for carrying a gun. Or do some research to understand that you don't have to be in some "dangerous" area to need it. In fact, think about the headlines ... shot in parking lot at courthouse ... shot on university grounds ... shot at McDonalds ... shot at factory ... etc etc etc.

If you're going to areas where gangs frequently clash and gunfights break out, you don't need a concealed carry permit. You need a new job and/or lifestyle.

But, yes, overall, a weapon is good to have. IMO anyway.

Mark
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:01 PM   #41
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
If you have the mindset that while carrying concealed you don't have to worry about being ready for a hand to hand fight, then, well, you're probably going to end up dead in a fight.

21 feet. That's the distance someone with a knife can reach a law enforcement officer and stab him without getting shot. Remember, LE have a weapon outside in a holster that's easy to get to, not concealed somewhere under clothing.

If you don't believe me, do some research. It's out there. I've talked to people in LE who've tried it, too. 21 feet or less is death by knife if all you do is go for your gun.



Just have a question. Have you ever trained with someone who is good at kali?



Hmmmm ... you might want to reconsider your reasons for carrying a gun. Or do some research to understand that you don't have to be in some "dangerous" area to need it. In fact, think about the headlines ... shot in parking lot at courthouse ... shot on university grounds ... shot at McDonalds ... shot at factory ... etc etc etc.

If you're going to areas where gangs frequently clash and gunfights break out, you don't need a concealed carry permit. You need a new job and/or lifestyle.

But, yes, overall, a weapon is good to have. IMO anyway.

Mark
The average Law Enforcement involved shooting is 6 - 8 feet away in low light conditions. It's not that different in civilian encounters, at least in terms of distance. At that kind of range you will not have time to access your weapon if the other guy "draws" first. You absolutely need to be able to go to the center and strike hard and preferably unbalance the opponent so he goes to the ground. This gives you time to access your own weapon. Which, of course, isn't really any different than the original use of our Aikido techniques. Throw the enemy down so that you can draw your sword and cut him.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:10 PM   #42
DonMagee
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
If you have the mindset that while carrying concealed you don't have to worry about being ready for a hand to hand fight, then, well, you're probably going to end up dead in a fight.

21 feet. That's the distance someone with a knife can reach a law enforcement officer and stab him without getting shot. Remember, LE have a weapon outside in a holster that's easy to get to, not concealed somewhere under clothing.

If you don't believe me, do some research. It's out there. I've talked to people in LE who've tried it, too. 21 feet or less is death by knife if all you do is go for your gun.



Just have a question. Have you ever trained with someone who is good at kali?



Hmmmm ... you might want to reconsider your reasons for carrying a gun. Or do some research to understand that you don't have to be in some "dangerous" area to need it. In fact, think about the headlines ... shot in parking lot at courthouse ... shot on university grounds ... shot at McDonalds ... shot at factory ... etc etc etc.

If you're going to areas where gangs frequently clash and gunfights break out, you don't need a concealed carry permit. You need a new job and/or lifestyle.

But, yes, overall, a weapon is good to have. IMO anyway.

Mark
I've done my research, I''m well prepared for hand to hand combat. I'm also ok with shooting someone who is trying to hurt me. So basically, I've been told that gun = dangerous for me, but aikido = saftey from armed attackers?? This makes no sense. I guess I just havn't met the right masters yet, but I have yet to see any effective knife or gun defenses. The best I've seen so far is the stuff the dog brothers do and even its very low percentage.

Anyways back on topic. I could see someone putting forth a vibe that their hit will kill you (Even though I do not believe in one hit empty hand strikes). I can even see someone's intuition keeping them from attacking. I just can't fathom a sport fighter getting in the ring and never thoughing a punch before throwing in the towel. I just wish one time in my life I could be that guy in that situation where a master was 'rooting' me. I'm a show me guy though.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-17-2006, 09:08 AM   #43
ian
 
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
As an aside, for all of this to really connect to reality from a fighting standpoint, one really needs to study atemi waza to the point at which he has a solid repertoire of strikes which would either kill, knock out, or disable in one blow. I only know a very few. It's not an area which I am pursuing in depth at this point as I really don't anticipate using my Aikido for self defense anyway. I am more likely to get killed in a car crash...
I'm starting to understand where you are coming from in terms of timing now George - thanks for that valuable contribution. I think you are correct.

I do see self-defence, traditional training and sport as quite different things. I tend to see the self-defence aspect as a focus for the aikido. As far as kill, knock-out and disable in one blow goes - I think aikido is specifically designed to be good at these types of attacks since it involves complete body movement from a single sudden attack. Once a fight has been engaged natural body defences (e.g. pulling head in to protect neck) tend to reduce the chances of these amazing knock-out strikes which are seen in demonstrations with completely relaxed people (otherwise MMA fighters would all be using them).

Also, what some people conventially term as 'self-defence' is in their mind fighting. I have been in several situations where moving out the way or removing a grab has stopped anything further actually occuring.

I suppose I just don't believe that the development of intuition (maybe through reading someone) is i. quickly developed or ii. suitable in all situations - even if this is a long term target of aikido.

Thanks for replied folks - really useful.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:18 AM   #44
dps
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Actually, and I consider this to be an Aikido Koan, O-Sensei stated that it wasn't about timing. I can give my own take on what he meant but this is a work in process. I have experienced it but can't say I have "mastered" it.

The Mind moves before the body. In other words your Mind decides to strike before the body manifests the movement of the Mind physically. If you want to execute a technique like ikkyo, you must enter in to take the center. This isn't that hard at the typical speed that most Aikido people attack. But as you train with people who are capable of great speed in their attacks, the window of opportunity for ones entry gets smaller and smaller. There is a point at which "reaction", ie. starting ones movement as a reaction to the attack becomes impossible as there simply isn't enough time.

If, however, you place your attention on the opponent / partner and touch him with your intention, it's as if the entry already pre-exists in your Mind and you simply have to allow it to actualize physically. In other words the entry is already a reality in your Mind, before you move. When you can do this, you start to feel like there simply is no speed that the attacker can acheive that gets him ahead of you because you have already done it on some level.


Doing this shifts your perception of time. You start to see the opponent's movements as being rather slow, even when they are objectively very fast. Ushiro Kenji Sensei, the Karate teacher appearing as guest instructor for the second time at Rocky Mountain Summer Camp talks about this at length. He talks about having your Mind on the "inside" or the "outside". I have interpreted this as inside his ma-ai or outside. Anyway, it has changed my Aikido entirely both in terms of my ability to enter when attacked and to execute my attacks.

Since O-Sensei looked at everything from a mystical standpoint in which there really is no separation between attacker and defender, they are one and the same, then one can't talk about action and re-action. Timing is a concept which is essentially relative. It deals with "when" relative to something else. I would suggest taking a look at replacing the concept of "when" and replacing it with the concept of "already" and see how that changes things.
George,
Have you ever read the book, "Power of Intention" by Dr. Wayne Dyer or any of Carlos Castenada's books.

From " The Active Side of Infinity" by Carlos Castenada:

" Intent is a force that exists in the universe. When sorcerers ( those who live of the Source) beckon intent, it comes to them and sets up the path for attainment, ......"

Last edited by dps : 09-02-2006 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:06 PM   #45
Sydney Tovatt
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Ki Symbol Re: intuition vs. speed

George S. Ledyard wrote:
If, however, you place your attention on the opponent / partner and touch him with your intention, it's as if the entry already pre-exists in your Mind and you simply have to allow it to actualize physically. In other words the entry is already a reality in your Mind, before you move. When you can do this, you start to feel like there simply is no speed that the attacker can acheive that gets him ahead of you because you have already done it on some level.

Since O-Sensei looked at everything from a mystical standpoint in which there really is no separation between attacker and defender, they are one and the same, then one can't talk about action and re-action. Timing is a concept which is essentially relative. It deals with "when" relative to something else. I would suggest taking a look at replacing the concept of "when" and replacing it with the concept of "already" and see how that changes things.

My question from the standpoint av recent experiences "on the street" is not hypothetical: Were you to meet an unknown person in a confrontation on the street whose skill in projecting his intentions equaled yours how could you react, finding you and your space suddenly owned by this person? -I first now, reading your words began to understand what happened to me.

Sydney Tovatt
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:08 AM   #46
philipsmith
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
"what you're talking about is what sports scientists and coaches sometimes call "speed of anticipatation"."

Philip - Thanks for the science - can that intuitive capacity be trained?

Hi Mark,

Glad to hear it's REALLY hard work in Brazil.

In answer to the question yes it can and yes we do.

How often does it appear that Tori is moving a long time before uke attacks?

The two best examples I have ever seen were the late Saito Sensei who appeared to moving at snails pace but finished his weapons strike at the same time as uke and Chiba Sensei who, on more than one occasion, I have not been able to complete an attack as he has thrown me at the point where I've thought about attacking him.

In a sense nearly all of our training is aimed at developing this sense of anticipation as with a "full-on" attack its physiologically impossible to move in time to evade it. (Check it out with Mark V & Tom next time your in town)

Regards

Phil
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Old 10-06-2006, 08:10 AM   #47
Esaemann
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Don Magee,

If you are interested in some phenomenal and fun handgun (or other firearm) defensive training, check out frontsight in Las Vegas. www.frontsight.com.

Eric
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:15 AM   #48
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
Sydney Tovatt wrote:
My question from the standpoint av recent experiences "on the street" is not hypothetical: Were you to meet an unknown person in a confrontation on the street whose skill in projecting his intentions equaled yours how could you react, finding you and your space suddenly owned by this person? -I first now, reading your words began to understand what happened to me.
Sydney Tovatt
Someone can only own your space if you concede it to him. This is the whole point of "fudoshin" or "immoveable mind". I have to have the strength of intention to maintain my outwardflow of attention to the opponent's center. If his intention and forward movement causes me to back up mentally, I am done for unless he makes some mistake himself.

This is why O-sensei councelled his deshi not to look into the opponent's eyes because they could "steal your spirit". Using soft focus is a way to utilize the movement receptors in the eye but it is also a way of cutting off the communication an aggressor is mking to cause your attention to retreat.

Of course, that instruction was for the students... O-Sensei
looked them in the eye and stole their spirit. So it depends on whether you have stronger intention than the other fellow whether you choose to connect with his intention this way.

If the agressor in question got inside your space physically, then you failed to act at the "critical Instant". The only potentially safe place to go at a certain point is forward to the center. If you freeze in place, they have you; if you back up, they have you. But the decision to move must be made before the aggressor has taken the space for himself.

This is why the "intuition" was so important for O-Sensei and Takeda Sokaku. Real enemies will attempt to take you by surprise. one must develop that sixth sense that allows you to feel the quality of their intention. Gavin DeBaeker, author of the Gift of Fear, has quite a bit to say about this. Very good reading.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:57 PM   #49
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: intuition vs. speed

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
If you can effectively project such strong and clear intention outwards, many potential encounters will end with the other guy deciding to go away.
George,
I too have been working on this topic for some time and have truly enjoyed your posts. I am curious as to your thoughts on how one 'effectively project such strong and clear intention outwards'. How are you experimenting with this? How are you projecting your intention?


Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
This is why O-sensei councelled his deshi not to look into the opponent's eyes because they could "steal your spirit". Using soft focus is a way to utilize the movement receptors in the eye but it is also a way of cutting off the communication an aggressor is mking to cause your attention to retreat.

Of course, that instruction was for the students... O-Sensei
looked them in the eye and stole their spirit. So it depends on whether you have stronger intention than the other fellow whether you choose to connect with his intention this way.
Any thoughts on how one 'steals anothers spirit'?

Take care,

Mark J.
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Old 10-11-2006, 03:50 PM   #50
Sydney Tovatt
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Ki Symbol Re: intuition vs. speed

From the standpoint of recent and ongoing experience my question is not hypothetical: Finding yourself confronted in real life with an attack by a previously unknown person or persons at least equally skilled in projecting his/her intention upon your space how do you react? When your intuition "sees" i coming? When it has become a matter of fact?
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