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Old 07-13-2006, 12:56 PM   #76
akiy
 
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Re: What is the One Point?

Let's please get back on-topic here, folks. Thank you.

-- Jun

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Old 07-13-2006, 02:32 PM   #77
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Re: What is the One Point?

Okay, Jun. I'll take a stab.
Quote:
It is not a 'point' but an 'area' located just below the navel,
Actually, from what I understand of Tohei sensei's teachings, the 'one point' is a single point. Not an area. Being a principle of the mind, while you can place tension in an area, you cannot place tension in a single point.

I could write more, but I'd only get confused. And I have a meeting in 15 minutes.

thanks,
Adam
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:17 PM   #78
Adam Alexander
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Graham Old wrote:
Is it simply the point of balance?

And how does concentrating on it help me do things like unbendable arm? I assume that I'm subconsicously rearranging my weight/balance, or using other muscles?

Would O Sensei have considered it the place where Ki is stored, or something like that?
I believe I know what it is. I think I found it about a year ago.

I would recommend that you train nearly everyday (if not every day). Do lots of kata. When you're ready, just like all of it, you'll discover it by accident.

Atleast that's what I think happened to me.

Oh, and I forgot: If I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't spend a moment worrying about those things. I'd just practice movements. Seems like everything else just comes when necessary.

I kind of figure that all that "center" and "harmony" stuff is very valuable. However, it's like when you meditate and try to force something out of your mind. It just gets stronger. When you focus on things like "center" before it's time, seems like you'd just be holding on stronger to how you're doing it now.

I don't know. Hell, I really don't know. But it just seems that like that's been my experience.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-13-2006 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:15 PM   #79
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Re: What is the One Point?

Dan and Mike's off-topic discussion as well as related posts have been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10649

-- Jun

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Old 07-14-2006, 02:19 AM   #80
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Dan and Mike's off-topic discussion as well as related posts have been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10649

-- Jun
Maybe they should get their own website(www.danandmike.com) for their discussions(?).
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:29 AM   #81
happysod
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
I disagree. Sensei facilitates MY learning. My teacher is the same teacher OSensei had - life. I am responsible for what I learn. Sensei gets credit for putting up with me. I have to do the learning
Agree up to a point, however, the ethos within your dojo will slant how you learn, what areas are concentrated on and the nature of that understanding. Which is why aikiweb provides us with the gamut from the great satsumas "don't think just kill" to "rocks can talk and have feelings". The is one of the main benefits I believe forums provide - alternate viewpoints and (hopefully) new ideas.

Generally, my use of one point is the fairly basic - essentially the point on your waist about 2-3 fingers below your navel, the point used in tai-chi for standing meditation. Not the same as your centre as this should change depending on your connection with your partner (I nearly said uke, but as uke you still should be keeping your centre - naughty me)

Anyway - venerable? am I really sounding that old... must start reading the adverts for the big slipper and the hairy old man fuzz-away products to keep up with ymy trendy new status

Mark - beer's always a good leveller, I'll have a small port and lemon
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:35 AM   #82
Mark Freeman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Agree up to a point, however, the ethos within your dojo will slant how you learn, what areas are concentrated on and the nature of that understanding. Which is why aikiweb provides us with the gamut from the great satsumas "don't think just kill" to "rocks can talk and have feelings". The is one of the main benefits I believe forums provide - alternate viewpoints and (hopefully) new ideas.

Generally, my use of one point is the fairly basic - essentially the point on your waist about 2-3 fingers below your navel, the point used in tai-chi for standing meditation. Not the same as your centre as this should change depending on your connection with your partner (I nearly said uke, but as uke you still should be keeping your centre - naughty me)

Anyway - venerable? am I really sounding that old... must start reading the adverts for the big slipper and the hairy old man fuzz-away products to keep up with ymy trendy new status

Mark - beer's always a good leveller, I'll have a small port and lemon
To the Venerable Ian Hurst

good 'points' o wise one, I am envious of your newly raised status on these esteemed fora, but port and lemon? is this drink really befitting of your new status?

Cheers,

Mark
p.s. I'm afraid I still only qualify for a beer.

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Old 07-14-2006, 08:49 AM   #83
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Re: What is the One Point?

Funny how even showing respect is 'atemi' in a way.

I showed respect then cut in as hard as I could. And yes Ian, taking that kind of thrust in stride, as did one other when I attacked in anger on this thread, is venerable!

I agree that environment slants; just making the point that I'm responsible for my own training.

david
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Old 07-14-2006, 07:01 PM   #84
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
We are not discussing here how to do the techniques. The topic here is how 'concepts' (particularly One Point Concept) are useful in aikido training,...
If you could just clarify this. Are you saying that only the concept and system of one point isn't worth pursuing, or are you saying all theoretical concepts and systems aren't worth doing as opposed to practice-on-the-mat, in order to advance in understanding aikido?
confused

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Old 07-14-2006, 08:33 PM   #85
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
If you could just clarify this. Are you saying that only the concept and system of one point isn't worth pursuing, or are you saying all theoretical concepts and systems aren't worth doing as opposed to practice-on-the-mat, in order to advance in understanding aikido?
confused
IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido.

However many intelligent and highly educated ppl find this Way too boring. They develop concepts (taking as the source of those concepts mainly ideas or domains that has nothing to do with aikido) and are trying to adapt techniques to these concepts. That makes distortions and false the results. This way 'transmission' from a Founder is lost for ever and these ppl get confused and lost their Way.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-14-2006, 08:47 PM   #86
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido.
You could say that O'Sensei did the concept work and left us the physical techniques or body knowledge as his Way.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
However many intelligent and highly educated ppl find this Way too boring. .
I would also add" many people who think they are."

Last edited by dps : 07-14-2006 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 07-14-2006, 08:47 PM   #87
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
where ever did you get that statistic?
Have you ever been to any big seminar? I suggest you go and observe how ppl move, their stamina, body coordination...etc. I'm talking here about beginners.

Founder 'beginners' students were very well developed martial artist from different styles. So he could use different teaching tools.
Presently it is impossible.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:26 PM   #88
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Re: An honest question to S

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I mean this as a genuine question to S.

How do you reconcile the fact that the Chief Instructor of the Aikikai at a time when most of the instructors you trace yourself back to were uchideshi, considers the One Point concept one of the four core principles of Aikido?
How do you reconcile the fact that the Founder himself concidered that goal of aikido is Unification with Univers human being that stands in Silver Bridge between Heaven and Earth, and you are not even unified with tatami?

K.Tohei is one of most sophisticated aikido masters, if you think you as a simple mortal, you can use tools from his level your are or naive or hopeless optimist.

Nagababa

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Old 07-14-2006, 10:37 PM   #89
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido...
Thanks for clearing up my confusion on your perspective. I thought that would be your answer, but I wasn't sure if you were just talking about "one point" or conceptual practice as a whole.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:39 PM   #90
aikigirl10
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Re: An honest question to S

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
K.Tohei is one of most sophisticated aikido masters, if you think you as a simple mortal, you can use tools from his level your are or naive or hopeless optimist.
simple mortal? lmao

what does that make you? ...a cockroach?

I guess Tohei was Madonna....
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Old 07-14-2006, 11:27 PM   #91
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Have you ever been to any big seminar?
seminars seem more popular here in America than they were in Okinawa.
of course, there really wasn't a need for it when you had the very best Aikido in one's "backyard."
i do remember Moriteru Ueshiba Sensei dropping by for a couple of dan examinations. that was always cool.
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Old 07-15-2006, 10:45 AM   #92
Mark Freeman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido.

However many intelligent and highly educated ppl find this Way too boring. They develop concepts (taking as the source of those concepts mainly ideas or domains that has nothing to do with aikido) and are trying to adapt techniques to these concepts. That makes distortions and false the results. This way 'transmission' from a Founder is lost for ever and these ppl get confused and lost their Way.
I would like to offer an opposing opinion, aikido is 'not' a purely physical training, it of course involves physical training but the mind is not on holiday when practicing. If the body 'and mind' are not co-ordinated then in my view aiki is not present. Training the mind to be in the right place at the right time are as much apart of aikido as the physical movements.

O Sensei didn't come up with aikido for the express purpose of conditioning just the body, my simple take on his teachings are that aikido is a system to co-ordinate mind, body and spirit. Through constant training we battle with the only opponent we face every day, ourselves.

If you train just the 'physical' fine, up to you, but please don't try to diminish the intelligence of others who may not subscribe to your may I say, limited interpretation.

regards,

Mark

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Old 07-15-2006, 10:50 AM   #93
Mark Freeman
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Re: An honest question to S

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
How do you reconcile the fact that the Founder himself concidered that goal of aikido is Unification with Univers human being that stands in Silver Bridge between Heaven and Earth, and you are not even unified with tatami?

K.Tohei is one of most sophisticated aikido masters, if you think you as a simple mortal, you can use tools from his level your are or naive or hopeless optimist.
Call me a naive hopless optimist who is only a simple mortal , but Tohei formulated his ki development exercises for the purpose of passing on his understanding to people who didn't have what he had but wanted it. When practicing what he taught, we of course can't function at his level, but through diligent practice, we can get closer to what he did. It's not rocket science.

regards,

Mark

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Old 07-15-2006, 10:54 AM   #94
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Re: An honest question to S

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
When practicing what he taught, we of course can't function at his level, but through diligent practice, we can get closer to what he did. It's not rocket science.
Bollocks, if you'll pardon the expression. If you know what someone else does and you work smarter and harder, you can pass them. All heroes are human.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:03 AM   #95
Mark Freeman
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Re: An honest question to S

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Bollocks, if you'll pardon the expression. If you know what someone else does and you work smarter and harder, you can pass them. All heroes are human.

FWIW

Mike
Mike,

I agree with you, I was just trying to respond to the wild man of the north, who seemed to raise Tohei to some unattainable level by mere mortals.

I don't mind the use of the vernacular, keeps it real

regards,

Mark

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Old 07-15-2006, 11:13 AM   #96
Mark Freeman
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Re: An honest question to S

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Bollocks, if you'll pardon the expression. If you know what someone else does and you work smarter and harder, you can pass them. All heroes are human.

FWIW

Mike
Mike,

p.s. I don't have any heroes only some people I respect more than others.

Would you say that your aikido has surpassed Tohei's?

regards,

Mark

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Old 07-15-2006, 04:27 PM   #97
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Re: An honest question to S

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
How do you reconcile the fact that the Founder himself concidered that goal of aikido is Unification with Univers human being that stands in Silver Bridge between Heaven and Earth, and you are not even unified with tatami?

K.Tohei is one of most sophisticated aikido masters, if you think you as a simple mortal, you can use tools from his level your are or naive or hopeless optimist.
1) Personally I've decided that I have nearly no idea what OSensei actually wanted for his creation, or how much of it was actually his creation. I think that at least 90% of what we know of Aikido came from other 'senior' instructors that had relatively little time with OSensei, then used all the many conflicting things he had to say to support their own adgenda. Kinda like how people use religious texts to support their own thing. (Like all of the homophopes quoting Leviticus to justify their insaine hatred and fear, and then then playing some football and chowing down on some ribs.) Then I decided to train with people who could explain physically how to reproduce all of the sensations I'd felt from senior Aikidoka. I'm not sure if it's even Aikido anymore, and don't particularly care. I'm reminded of my guitar teacher in junior high. I wanted to learn Van Hallen riffs, his response was, "Learn Jimmi first, if you have to learn where someone came from to understand where they went."

2) As others have pointed out, Tohei developed his *teaching model* around ki and concepts of ki. I believe your head is so fully buried within the dogmatic framework of mainline Aikikai that you can't even acknowledge other teching systems, even if they influenced those who you study from. You my friend will always take the blue pill and wake up tasting steak and chicken and never looking past what you've been told.
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:13 AM   #98
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Re: What is the One Point?

Nagababa,

I respect your assertively stated opinions. It can be very powerful to describe what is true, and what is not true. Your approach can save you, or any students you have a great deal of time - if you are correct.

Thus,
Quote:
IMO aikido is not 'conceptual' practice. It is purely physical training. Source of 'body knowledge' are physical techniques. These 'pure' techniques should form our understanding of aikido.
- Nagababa

When you face multiple opponents, and you have three to six seconds before the signal to begin, do you strategize? Do you size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses? Or do you waste the three to six seconds and hope your 'highly trained instincts' carry you through?

In my humble opinion it's a pity to waste the time.

david
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:03 PM   #99
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
When you face multiple opponents, and you have three to six seconds before the signal to begin, do you strategize? Do you size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses? Or do you waste the three to six seconds and hope your 'highly trained instincts' carry you through?

In my humble opinion it's a pity to waste the time.

david
Looks like you don't practice aikido as a Budo.
Facing multiple opponents there is no "signal to begin" -- this concept came from sport-like approach. It has nothing to do with aikido practice.

Because you don't practice aikido as a Budo, you don't apply Founder teaching -- one must control opponent before attack starts.This should be your strategy It is particulary true facing multiple opponents.
So my answer is no I don't waste time to size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses..etc.
Please meditate about that.

Nagababa

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Old 07-17-2006, 12:38 PM   #100
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Re: What is the One Point?

"Looks like you don't practice aikido as a Budo.
Facing multiple opponents there is no "signal to begin" -- this concept came from sport-like approach. It has nothing to do with aikido practice.

Because you don't practice aikido as a Budo, you don't apply Founder teaching -- one must control opponent before attack starts.This should be your strategy It is particulary true facing multiple opponents.
So my answer is no I don't waste time to size up the people, consider their strengths and weaknesses..etc.
Please meditate about that. "

No point meditating on your advice Sir. Do you realize you answer according to the same formula every time on this web? You indicate the questioner does not understand the True Way, you fail to answer the question posed, and then suggest said questioner refer to some obtuse unanswerable mystery that you alone grasp. Sir, I propose that if you can not, will not, answer questions posed that you stop wasting our time and hold your tongue.

OSensei was a man; I am a man. The universe teaches me as it taught him. This is enough.

David
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