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Old 07-13-2006, 06:32 AM   #51
Robert Rumpf
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Just to toss in my 2 cents. The idea of "center of mass" being the "one point" sort of means that Asians were dummies to give some obscure term to such an obvious concept, doesn't it? In other words, to toss off "one point" as being something as obvious as "center of mass" is a little patronizing toward Asians. If they're that dumb and obvious, why on earth would anyone elect to do their martial arts?

I personally think the "one point" or "dantien" or "tanden", etc., concept is a lot more complicated that it appears to be. The physical "dantien" can be thought of as a muscular soccer ball that is attached to the spine and hips and moves in accordance with them and the forces of the ground or the weight. The "one point" could then be the figurative center of this area.... and that would be far more sophisticated than this discussion has become.

However, while the above paragraph is true, it neglects a very sophisticated part of what is the actual "ki" or "qi" in the way the mind directs the forces. And sure, I was unaware of this stuff at one time too, so I'm not trying to be supercilious. But if you know how to trigger the ki things, suddenly you see a clever way to manipulate forces and what a real "one point" is becomes clear. A real "Aha!". And suddenly those dumb ole Asians don't appear as dumb or as superficial as we thought. Maybe instead of interpretting on what we know, we should consider the possibility that there are things that we simply didn't learn in our training?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I'm not sure that smart or dumb really means that much in this - it could be a translation issue. In addition, I'm not sure how much (for example) O'Sensei knew about physics and the terminology associated with it.

While I don't think that center of mass is ALL of what they meant by One Point, I do that it is a piece of the concept - or at least something worth considering in my Aikido. Its also something that ki skeptics or agnostics can get a piece of.

I'm working on my Aikido piecemeal and attacking the ideas that are within reach (I currently don't "how to trigger the ki things" and am not making discernable progress along that path). Thinking in ways that I somewhat understand (physics) is a way for me to make some sort of progress.

I'm sure we can debate the wisdom of this, but I'd rather not.. I've already been told on some other thread that my basics suck, and I'd rather not hear that everywhere.

Rob
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:42 AM   #52
Robert Rumpf
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Hey, that was my post, get your own.
What can I say - just living up to the verb that is my name.

Rob
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:47 AM   #53
aikigirl10
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I'm convinced that you guys you are doing psedo religious One Point Church.
lmao
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:15 AM   #54
bob_stra
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Re: What is the One Point?

This may be of interest (specifically: see bolded section), as it refers peripherally to "One Point". From a current JudoInfo thread

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=11623
******************************

(From Feldenkrais Journal 19, Issue #2 "Martial Moshe Interview" pp
8-10 )

Q: You were talking the other day about ki, chi, that kind of thing.
I'd like to know what you think about that

Feldenkrais: Ki and chi are the same thing. You'd better, about chi and ki, ask
Chinese or other Asian people. Because they talk about Ki and chi. I
can tell you only about Koizumi, when he wanted to talk about it. There
was an international congress of judo black belts in London and I was
one of them.

There were about 500 there. And we had a special course
conducted by Koizumi. And then in the middle of the course, on the
fifth day he suddenly says "Now I am going to talk to you about the
most important principle in judo training, about the saika-tanden. Some
people call call it tantien, the seat of chi, ki or whatever you like,
but it's the saika-tanden in Japanese. But Feldenkrais, come here" he
said to the whole assemblage.

'I believe he will talk to you about the
saika-tanden more sensibly and in a way you'll understand. It is
something which I feel and know, but which I cannot explain". And then
he let me explain for the people there. And he wrote the preface of my
book. The thing is this, when you talk of such matters in my way, no
one will take it for ki or chi, You see, most people talk about that as
if it's a mysterious kind of thing in the lower abdomen with all sorts
of metaphysical powers. I have no connection with that"

Q: But this is only a semantic difference, isn't it?

A: Oh, no. A semantic difference. No. Ghosts are a semantic difference?
Ghosts are something which if you believe in and your are afraid of
ghosts, you are afraid of ghosts. You will never go into a haunted
house

Q: Yes, but you must know...it's not semantic, but you must know from
your practice something, the importance, what they call in language,
tanden

A: Of course I know

Q: And their description of it, while it may be...

A: My description of it is only in movement. I am not concerned with
the other things

...

Q: But what you're talking about is different?

A: Yes, I told you. In movement, I can show you what chi is, what ki
is, on you or anybody else. Can you see that my notions on breathing
are different from anything you heard before and will ever hear? You
can see it, you can test it, on yourself, and there is a marked
difference between the one and the other, provided you can make the
contrast.

Q: Okay, for example, in martial arts training, in Aikido, when they
have the notion of unbendable arm or they talk about focusing
somewhere, like a couple of inches below the navel and a couple of
inches inside the lower abdomen, and then having your weight underside
and not being stiff, but not relaxed, but having your attention...

A: Well, I don't know that it's a few inches here and few inches there.
It has to do with the full organization of your body, you can see it in
whatever you do. You actually get chi through using the pelvis and the
lower abdominal muscles, the strong muscles of the body as a unit
concentrated where all the push or pull is issued.

The rest of the body and the arms needn't be powerful. It's not a muscle, it's not a point.
It has nothing to do with a point, because if it were a point...Look,
if you move your body like that, the point is gone. A point a few
inches here, a few inches there, if you go there, you will find it is
full of #%*/, literally. (Laughter). That point is full of #%*/.


...

Q: Your teacher and Kano, were training with that notion in a cultural
matrix that allowed them not to view it so mysteriously?

A: Oh, certainly, And Kano, when he had already a school where most of
the people could beat anybody in Japan, he brought a boy that was 14yrs
old into the dojo and none of those big experts could throw him...They
said "Look, judo no good". And he (Kano) said "you are no good". This
chap will be here until you learn to fight that sort of thing. Only
then will you have a better saika-tanden than he. He is better than any
one of you, therefore you have to learn.*******************************
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:35 AM   #55
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
What you fail to understand is the things being highlighted here are the very foundation of your art...not what you have been doing.
Dan
How can you know what is fundamental in aikido as you don't practice aikido? You know nothing about it.You cant even guess.

I don't lecture about what engineer or architect must understand as basic of his art, because I'm neither engineer nor architect. It would be very silly.

You misunderstood other point also. 30 years of training is needed to develop conditioning body and mind. 99.9999.....% ppl who start aikido have virtually no experience in any other MA, or even sports. How can you compare them with Tenryu?? Your arguments fail in all line.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:44 AM   #56
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Which means in my mind there's only so many efficient ways to move the human body
<snip>
I think you're just jealous that there's someone that might walk the walk better than how you like to talk the talk
We are not discussing here how to do the techniques. The topic here is how 'concepts' (particularly One Point Concept) are useful in aikido training,

And don't start psychoanalyzing me; it is not the topic of this discussion. Of course you are not the first one to do it as you don't have any valid argument on the topic itself.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:45 AM   #57
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Re: What is the One Point?

What is "Imao"?
Mary
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:49 AM   #58
bob_stra
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Re: What is the One Point?

Laughing my a$$ off
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:52 AM   #59
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
What is "Imao"?
Mary
it is probably another useful concept in aikido practice

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:01 AM   #60
DH
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Re: Single men in the face of mediocrity

Q: Your teacher and Kano, were training with that notion in a cultural
matrix that allowed them not to view it so mysteriously?

A: Oh, certainly, And Kano, when he had already a school where most of
the people could beat anybody in Japan, he brought a boy that was 14yrs
old into the dojo and none of those big experts could throw him...They
said "Look, judo no good". And he (Kano) said "you are no good". This
chap will be here until you learn to fight that sort of thing. Only
then will you have a better saika-tanden than he. He is better than any
one of you, therefore you have to learn.*******************************


Bob

Any other refference to who that 14 yr old boy was and where he had trained? I have a theory I'd like to explore.


Szczepan
You are missing the point entirely. it is not about technique and it is why Ueshiba watched and felt tenryu (who did these exercises and body training skills) and started pushing and shoving and had Tenryu pushing on Him. Why would Ueshiba train this way? What value is there and standing there and having someone push on you Szczepan? WIthout using technique. Anything you can think of?
HE said...not me..."This is not my Aikido" while watching all the big dogs playing at the hombu.
Takeda got it
Sagawa got it
Ueshiba got it
Kodo Got it
Harrison wrote of it from a Judo source, then from an Aikijujutsu source
Draeger, Smith, and Relnick all felt it and at various times wrote of it
Amdur felt it and spoke of it
Many modern artists including gold medal Judoka and 6 th dan judoka who could not get near Sagawa and were thrown wrote of it
Stan Pranin saw it and saw a 5 th dan Aikidoka tossed around like a baby by Sagawa
Rob has now enocuntered it and is doing thing with it
I have written of my own experiences stopping Aikido, Jujutsuka and CMAers
Now we read of Kano bringin in a 14 yr ol who could not be thrown.
A 14 YR OLD.....................

I have wondered how it is that these skills, this knowledge has gone on so long, and been written about by so many disparate voices spanning generations (When Harrison asked the Aikijujutsu master if many men in Japan knew this he was told "Very, very few") I am left with three things that stick

1. A double menkyo Kaedan in Japanese Koryu- a very well known chap said to me.
"Dan, I was young and stupid. I had it, right there in front of me and I didn't recognize that THAT was what I should be training for. Instead I sent my life learning ways to fight. Now in his later years he is going back to move forward."

2. All the very reasonable people who read these boards for information and shmoosing who have been led astray by good hearted folks who are in pursuit of a quasy religous nether land Ki that never existed and have squandered their lives contemplating their navels with no power to show for it-so that people with their feet on the ground no longer believe there is anything other than what they know

3. People who train and are shown real world ways to re-wire their minds and bodies and just wont do the work. All while showing up and going nuts over the pwer they feel from a teacher, but they don't work outside the dojo.

Stop and think. In the fullness of time-how do these tales from Pranin, Harrison, Sagawa, Kano exist?

Because single men stood in the face of mediocrity. We had to have had the masses in Budo slogging away at joint locks, kicks and throws to be the mediocre stage-background for the internal art searchers who mastered the real skills. Their understanding went beyond a way to punch, a way to throw, into the very core of what it was to live, breathe, and move and came away with a way to be powerful- past any single art.

I am starting to get why they never wrote about it and were almost to a man reclusive in teaching the real stuff. There just isn't any point. It will always be this way.

A 14 yr old......at the Kodokan who could not be thrown....
Why does that sound familiar
People who say they can't be or are very hard to throw......
Where have I read about that?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-13-2006 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:36 AM   #61
DH
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
How can you know what is fundamental in aikido as you don't practice aikido? You know nothing about it.You cant even guess.

I don't lecture about what engineer or architect must understand as basic of his art, because I'm neither engineer nor architect. It would be very silly.

You misunderstood other point also. 30 years of training is needed to develop conditioning body and mind. 99.9999.....% ppl who start aikido have virtually no experience in any other MA, or even sports. How can you compare them with Tenryu?? Your arguments fail in all line.
If thats the kind of reply I get after a well thought out post to you. Then I am not going to bother. I offered you my time and respect.
We don't agree, I see that. But I expected more depth in rebuttal.


There are things Szczepan that you simply do not know.

Cheers anyway
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-13-2006 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:37 AM   #62
bob_stra
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Re: What is the One Point?

Dan

There is no reference to who the boy was. Someone suggested it may have been Saigo, but I think there's a great deal of evidence against that. Saigo died early 1920's. Feldenkrais didn't hook up with kano till after 1921/22, so there's no way he could have seen a *young*, 14yr old Saigo in action when he visited the Kodokan, circa 1923-1930.

YMMV

Why - who do you suspect it is? I'd like to know myself
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:55 AM   #63
DH
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Dan

There is no reference to who the boy was. Someone suggested it may have been Saigo, but I think there's a great deal of evidence against that. Saigo died early 1920's. Feldenkrais didn't hook up with kano till after 1921/22, so there's no way he could have seen a *young*, 14yr old Saigo in action when he visited the Kodokan, circa 1923-1930.

YMMV


Why - who do you suspect it is? I'd like to know myself

Well I have several ideas I'd look at. Does he know WHEN that occured?
P.M me and then if I find anything I 'll write ya

Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:09 AM   #64
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What is the One Point?

Hi Robert,

I got your meaning just fine. I thought it was very well put...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:16 AM   #65
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
What is "Imao"?
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
it is probably another useful concept in aikido practice
it is!
one of O Sensei's rules for training Aikido;
Training should always be conducted in a pleasant and joyful atmosphere.
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:20 AM   #66
Mark Freeman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
it is!
one of O Sensei's rules for training Aikido;
Training should always be conducted in a pleasant and joyful atmosphere.
You beat me to it Ricky, I was going to say the same

When one is laughing they are likely to have the relaxed state that is needed for aikido, however if they are laughing too hard, this can be counterproductive!

cheers,

Mark
p.s. lmao!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:23 AM   #67
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
99.9999.....% ppl who start aikido have virtually no experience in any other MA, or even sports.
where ever did you get that statistic?
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:45 AM   #68
Mark Freeman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
where ever did you get that statistic?
Opinion stated as fact, I thought you would know Ricky, it's what the Internet was invented for

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:51 AM   #69
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Re: What is the One Point?

Doh!
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:57 AM   #70
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Re: What is the One Point?

Rob,

I must apologize as well. I was angry with my wife when I posted, and that tone came across as aggressive. Also, I did not read the links. So, I apologize. Thank you for your candor.

Dan Harden:
Quote:
I've just trained with one of the highest Chen Tai chi men in the world from Chen village and twenty of his students doing push hands. I told them "I can't do Tai chi, I don' know Tai chi, that I've never done Tai chi." A mere four hours in they told me I had better internal skills than them. And that I could help fix their Tai chi.
Dan, peace be with you.

david
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:29 AM   #71
ChrisMoses
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An honest question to S

I mean this as a genuine question to S.

How do you reconcile the fact that the Chief Instructor of the Aikikai at a time when most of the instructors you trace yourself back to were uchideshi, considers the One Point concept one of the four core principles of Aikido?
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Old 07-13-2006, 11:06 AM   #72
Larry Cuvin
 
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Re: What is the One Point?

Another phenomenon that perplexes me is the unliftable body when one "keeps the one point", even with two large persons lifting. When I went back home to the Philippines, as an experiment, I taught my young nephew who probably weighed about 65 lbs the concept of mind and body coordination and one point. He was able to do the unbendable arm relatively easy considering no experience in any concepts of MA. To show his dad the concept as well, we both tried lifting his son while his son kept the one point. When we could not lift his kid, he asked me why and I could not explain. I told him it's beyond Physics so I don't know.

To me, the concept of keeping one point and the coordination of mind and body is the main thing that gets me coming back to the dojo time after time. I'm on my second year in ki aikido and the ki class every training day has made realize to relax more and extend plus ki to everyone. The aikido class that follows the ki class, I consider the "cherry on top". Ki training, I consider the "real meat". I know I have a lifetime of improving to do.

Plus Ki
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Old 07-13-2006, 11:57 AM   #73
Mark Freeman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Have to say, having met Mike at one of his workshops when he was in the UK recently, I didn't get this impression at all.
I certainly appreciate any instructor who gets the beers in off their own bat and found him nothing but pleasant and willing to discuss things.

Mark, I don't think the added twists of the thread have done anything but reveal the "One Points" true source - it's whatever I damn well say it is at this point in time. With that in mind, the answer boils down to the nice little homily of "ask your sensei what they think it is" and act accordingly.
Ian,

perhaps we measure character differently over here, "mines a pint, thanks"
I know someone who was also at Mike's recent UK visit, he gave a positive report of both him and the material shown.

Your advice about asking your sensei, is of course correct (damn you ).

cheers,

Mark

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Old 07-13-2006, 12:16 PM   #74
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Re: What is the One Point?

Venerable Ian Hurst said
Quote:
Mark, I don't think the added twists of the thread have done anything but reveal the "One Points" true source - it's whatever I damn well say it is at this point in time. With that in mind, the answer boils down to the nice little homily of "ask your sensei what they think it is" and act accordingly.
I disagree. Sensei facilitates MY learning. My teacher is the same teacher OSensei had - life. I am responsible for what I learn. Sensei gets credit for putting up with me. I have to do the learning.

Regarding the 'one point' or hara, or ki - I'll 'TRUST MY GUT'

thanks

david
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Old 07-13-2006, 12:43 PM   #75
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What is the One Point?

Dan explained that in detail in the Jo trick thread. Go back and re-read that rather than rehash it here...I would think.

Best,
Ron

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