Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-08-2006, 10:31 PM   #1
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Small movements

I recently purchased Sensei Phong's excellent 'Advanced Aikido '. On page 54 of the book, Sensei Phong states "The more advanced the student, the more he or she will begin to move his or weight internally rather than externally. There will be very little noticeable movement as the weight and momentum move from the center in a circular motion that is so small (yet powerful) that it is unperceived. Only years of conscious practice will facilitate this type of action".

I heard something similar on a recent trip to Abe Sensei's dojo in Osaka. We were practicing a very difficult exercise (to me anyway) where uke would grab tori in a vice-like morotedori. Tori was supposed to move very subtly (something which I had diffficult grasping) and then project uke downwards into the mat. I suspect the exercise follows the 'conscious practice' described above.

I would like to develop the 'internal weight movement' mentioned above, but am not sure how to go about it... I'm guessing this involves 'conscious practice', but what type of 'conscious practice'?

Thanks in advance
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 07:49 AM   #2
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Small movements

It's more to do with lines and angles, in particular, *triangulation* of the person's center of balance and drawing it outside of their physical limits of maintaining their own balance. If you shift your body into a position where you can triangulate uke's limit of sttructural integrity, you can draw them into the throw. Nothing to do with "internal weight movement"... that's something else entirely.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 09:29 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,670
United_States
Offline
Re: Small movements

IMHO, visualize a water filled sphere at your center internally resting between your hip bones. Begin moving the water around the sphere in different directions with relatively large movements. Over time, make the movement smaller and smaller.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 09:40 AM   #4
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,081
Offline
Re: Small movements

".... he or she will begin to move his or weight internally rather than externally."
Lynn,
Is the internal the flexing and relaxing of muscles in preparing to move. For example; if my intention is to take a step forward with my right foot, I need to setup the move by flexing some muscles and relaxing others?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 10:55 AM   #5
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,371
Germany
Offline
Re: Small movements

David, I'd say that has something to do with it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 11:00 AM   #6
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,081
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
David, I'd say that has something to do with it.
So by preparing to take the step but not actually taking the step could you say that I internally took the step?

Using Lynn's visualization you could move the water by flexing and relaxing the muscles surrounding the sphere?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 11:13 AM   #7
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Small movements

For me, what is being talked about is not so much about 'muscle' movement but 'mind' movement. The movement is generated internally through the mind/body, the mind generates the feeling within the body, and the movement eminates outward from there. Very difficult to describe on paper, difficult to understand and to 'do' without a great deal of conscious practice, as mentioned in Phong's writings.

Practice, practice and yet more practice

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 11:21 AM   #8
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,081
Offline
Re: Small movements

What I am feeling when I do exercises like Lynn's example is the tightening and relaxing of opposing muscles and thus a shift of weight say from one leg to another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 02:12 PM   #9
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,670
United_States
Offline
Re: Small movements

Move both the mind and the body as one beat, nothing sequentially preparatory.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 11:06 PM   #10
DevinHammer
 
DevinHammer's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 89
United_States
Offline
Re: Small movements

All good points above, but I would say that the KEY phrase from your quote from Sensei Phong (and yes, I have the book) is "The more advanced the student...". To me that means that you shouldn't worry about trying to specifically and consciously develop that skill - it will come with earnest training and time.

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
-- Jedi Master Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 02:02 AM   #11
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Very difficult to describe on paper, difficult to understand and to 'do' without a great deal of conscious practice, as mentioned in Phong's writings.

Practice, practice and yet more practice

regards,

Mark
So, what type of conscious practice would you recommend? Thanks
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 04:46 AM   #12
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
So, what type of conscious practice would you recommend? Thanks
Well, for me, half of every session at the dojo consists of 'ki development exercises', these basically are designed to co-ordinate mind and body. They are a very conscious practice, the priciple of every exercise is found in the aikido we do, but are not aikido 'techniques' in themselves. So this is one way of doing it, not the only one I would imagine, I don't know, as I've only been party to this one approach. However it has given me a decent understanding of what Phong means.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:06 PM   #13
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Small movements

Lynn and Mark, thanks for your explanations

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Nothing to do with "internal weight movement"... that's something else entirely.
So how would you interpret 'internal weight movement'?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:45 PM   #14
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,079
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
I would like to develop the 'internal weight movement' mentioned above, but am not sure how to go about it... I'm guessing this involves 'conscious practice', but what type of 'conscious practice'?

Thanks in advance
You can't develop 'advanced' skills doing immediately small or ‘advanced' movements. It is very popular illusion in new age aikido circles -- ‘we will start at the point where O sensei finished. Why reinvent wheel once again?'

First you must do large, very physical movements many years, to be able to ‘read' dynamically attack in movement in its environment without using conscious effort of your brain. It includes stuff eyrie was talking about but also much more. There are no shortcuts.

Do as sword maker does when he starts to make a sword -- he doesn't start by polishing raw piece of steel. Foget useless books.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:53 PM   #15
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,081
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
You can't develop 'advanced' skills doing immediately small or ‘advanced' movements. It is very popular illusion in new age aikido circles -- ‘we will start at the point where O sensei finished. Why reinvent wheel once again?'

First you must do large, very physical movements many years, to be able to ‘read' dynamically attack in movement in its environment without using conscious effort of your brain. It includes stuff eyrie was talking about but also much more. There are no shortcuts.

Do as sword maker does when he starts to make a sword -- he doesn't start by polishing raw piece of steel. Foget useless books.
Gee I think I agree with you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 03:40 AM   #16
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Small movements

Its the same in Nei Gung (look on amazon). Basically a series of exercises, but as you improve the twisting motions become smaller until your body hardly moves at all ! (I think something to do with yin/yang theory in that the internal movement has to replace the external movement as you improve). However the smaller motions are done because you can feel that the same can be achieved with smaller motion, not because you just do smaller motions.

As far as practise goes, I think it has to do with efficiency. Basically beginners aren't advanced students and should continue to have larger movements. I think lots of sword cutting can help develop the efficiency, as well as awareness of how the centre and hips move and the connection between centre and hand in directing force. But don't ask me too much - after 15 years my movements are still large! I do think visualisation can often help (i.e. Lynns suggestion).

P.S. I'm still waiting for that book on order from amazon

Can anyone tell me where to get a copy more rapidly? (please e-mail)

Thanks,
Ian

Last edited by ian : 07-11-2006 at 03:45 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 03:48 AM   #17
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Do as sword maker does when he starts to make a sword -- he doesn't start by polishing raw piece of steel.
P.S. I like this analogy. I am starting to think that aikidoka should all go through a 'hard' stage before going to a more subtle stage, if only to realise that the subtle stage is actually more effective. Ueshiba was no big girls blouse before refining his aikido.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 06:19 AM   #18
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
But don't ask me too much - after 15 years my movements are still large! I do think visualisation can often help (i.e. Lynns suggestion).

P.S. I'm still waiting for that book on order from amazon

Can anyone tell me where to get a copy more rapidly? (please e-mail)

Thanks,
Ian
Ian, thanks for the helpful comments. I haven't reached the 15 year mark yet (but I will).

Actually, I got my copy from the local bookstore... Because I don't have an Amazon for my country, it's often cheaper to wait for books to hit the shelves, rather than paying for the shipping charges.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 06:23 AM   #19
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
You can't develop 'advanced' skills doing immediately small or ‘advanced' movements. It is very popular illusion in new age aikido circles -- ‘we will start at the point where O sensei finished. Why reinvent wheel once again?'

First you must do large, very physical movements many years, to be able to ‘read' dynamically attack in movement in its environment without using conscious effort of your brain. It includes stuff eyrie was talking about but also much more. There are no shortcuts.

Do as sword maker does when he starts to make a sword -- he doesn't start by polishing raw piece of steel. Foget useless books.
Ok... I guess you are saying that it will come naturally... but am I on the right road? And would you mind explaining that part about "also much more"?" Thanks
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 11:13 AM   #20
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 558
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
So, what type of conscious practice would you recommend? Thanks
How about Tai-no-henko exercise to begin with?

It meets Ignatius' specs: "It's more to do with lines and angles, in particular, *triangulation* of the person's center of balance and drawing it outside of their physical limits of maintaining their own balance. If you shift your body into a position where you can triangulate uke's limit of structural integrity, you can draw them into the throw".

You can begin with a 180 degree pivot and then proceed to smaller angles as you get comfortable.

I also agree with Dr. Seiser that it is a mind body co-ordination thing. In the exercise you described in Abe sensei's dojo, rather than focus on the uke's vise-like grab, you can think of picking up a coin from the floor with the hand that was grabbed. But if you understand angles and triangulations your path would be shorter - knowing the principles of basic techniques then you have less "fancy" techniques to concern with. After all, it is a matter of practice makes perfect.

Just my two sen.

Best training

David Y

Last edited by David Yap : 07-11-2006 at 11:22 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 07:47 PM   #21
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Small movements

Thanks David
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2006, 05:51 AM   #22
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 558
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
Thanks David
You are most welcomed.

By the way, have you figured it out how to cause your uke to raise up in the suwariwaza kokyu-ho exercise? I was told by one of my teachers that prior to WWII, kokyu (or kokyu-ho) was a secret technique only taught by O Sensei to a selected few. Those who were taught were sworn to secrecy.

Was that you in a photo at the AAF Bangkok last year taking ukemi for your teacher? Saw it on the Y dojo website.

Hope to c u on the mats one day.

David Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2006, 06:25 AM   #23
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
You are most welcomed.

By the way, have you figured it out how to cause your uke to raise up in the suwariwaza kokyu-ho exercise? I was told by one of my teachers that prior to WWII, kokyu (or kokyu-ho) was a secret technique only taught by O Sensei to a selected few. Those who were taught were sworn to secrecy.

Was that you in a photo at the AAF Bangkok last year taking ukemi for your teacher? Saw it on the Y dojo website.

Hope to c u on the mats one day.

David Y
David, what I do in suwariwaza kokyu-ho causes uke to rise up... whether I'm doing it correctly... that's a different story

Yes, that was me in the photo... ahhhh... I thought I could remain anonymous

Hope to c u on the mats one day as well...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2006, 07:58 AM   #24
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 558
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
David, what I do in suwariwaza kokyu-ho causes uke to rise up... whether I'm doing it correctly... that's a different story
As long as you can do it with minimal effort (not forcing the technique) then you are on the right path

You must be one of the newly promoted shodans. Congrats. I have a back injury and had to skip Horii shihan seminar. Too bad, would have been glad to share the mats with you. Another time, perhaps

C U

David Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2006, 08:31 AM   #25
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
Offline
Re: Small movements

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
You must be one of the newly promoted shodans. Congrats. I have a back injury and had to skip Horii shihan seminar. Too bad, would have been glad to share the mats with you. Another time, perhaps
David Y
Sorry David, I am not one of the newly promoted shodans... However, I will be at the other seminar on Saturday

From your comments, the probability of meeting on the mat seems higher than I previously thought
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Bruce Bookman Weekend Intensive - Bruce Bookman Intensive at Aikido of MD Tenzankai! Feb 22-24. Columbia MD



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Big Aikido vs Small Aikido Mato-san General 33 07-18-2006 10:24 AM
Aikido for a small woman Bodhi General 39 06-06-2006 09:00 AM
small circle? daniel chong General 25 02-22-2006 02:11 AM
Small World PeterR General 2 01-24-2006 05:36 AM
A small victory along the greater path.. Daniel Mills General 13 05-16-2003 06:17 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:14 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate