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Old 07-02-2006, 12:30 AM   #1
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Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of July 2, 2006:

Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.
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Old 07-02-2006, 05:09 AM   #2
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

I voted 'yes' again, out of an intuitive response based on the philosophical principle of: "the loving protection of all things." In gassho.
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Old 07-02-2006, 08:32 AM   #3
Mark Freeman
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I voted 'yes' again, out of an intuitive response based on the philosophical principle of: "the loving protection of all things." In gassho.
Me too, I think we are on firmer ground in this poll Mark

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-02-2006, 09:39 AM   #4
Don_Modesto
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

No.

Among those who vote yes, I'd like to know the extent of their investigations into other MA.

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 07-02-2006, 10:18 AM   #5
Mark Freeman
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
No.

Among those who vote yes, I'd like to know the extent of their investigations into other MA.

Thanks.
Hi Don,

Voting in a poll doesn't have to be preceeded by any experience. There are no right or wrong answers, only opinions.
If that were the case, the only people qualified to vote would be those that have direct experience of 'all' martial arts.

maybe if a someone could point out 'any' other martial art that has the same philosophy as aikido, then I would think about changing my vote if the same poll was ever put again.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-02-2006, 12:02 PM   #6
Don_Modesto
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Hi, Mark,

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Voting in a poll doesn't have to be preceeded by any experience. There are no right or wrong answers, only opinions.
If that were the case, the only people qualified to vote would be those that have direct experience of 'all' martial arts.
I've never agreed with the proposition that there are no wrong opinions, so we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Of course, things would always be a little quieter if only those who knew spoke.

Quote:
maybe if a someone could point out 'any' other martial art that has the same philosophy as aikido, then I would think about changing my vote if the same poll was ever put again.
There's gotta be a ton.

I found one in English, even. Karl Friday's Legacies of the Sword, p. 64 says,

"The Japanese martial art tradition, however, associates "bu" phonetically with the native term "musubu""to give birth," "to bring together," "to create," or "to give life." In the Japanese conceptualization then, "bu" is a proactive, constructive idea, meaning "to bring forth peace."* Peace cannot be created through military affairs alone. In its broadest sense, therefore, "bu" also refers to agriculture, manufacture, and all other forms of production. Japanese budo * posits the sword as a symbol for all the tools of these peace-creating trades, in the same way that Kashima-Shinryu* bugei takes the sword as its nucleus, representative of all the other weapons of the various disciplines.
"Both the goal and the essence of Kashima-Shinryu budo are expressed in the word "shinbu." The most common orthography for this term modifies the character "bu" with shin/kami ("divine, spirit, deity"), but alternative renderings use shin/ma ("truth, reality") or shin/makoto ("sincerity, fidelity, honesty, genuine"). "Shinbu" thus translates inexactly as "divine valor," "true martial art," "spiritual martial power," or "sacred martialism.

"In its narrowest sense, "shinbu" means "sublime martial moral power, like that of the deities; or to rectify turmoil as would the deities." This is the notion hinted at in the famous phrase "shinbu ni shite fusetsu" ("to attain shinbu and kill not"), which appears in a number of Tokugawa period treatises on the bugei, the best known of which is the early eighteenth century Neko no myojutsu.

"But the concept of shinbu embraces physical and metaphysical as well as ethical ideas. In its fullest sense, it describes the condition that holds when all the essential principles of martial art are put into application simultaneously and in proper balance. Shinbu is, in other words, the summation of idealized budo, that which at once epitomizes and transcends physical combat."

Does that qualify?--The conflation of ethics, metaphysics, training, peace, agriculture, birth...

Off the top of my head, there's also Iizasa Choisai's punning of Strategy of War with Strategy of Peace (it works in Jpn).

Osensei as revolutionary is marketing, not history. That there are precedents for almost everything he did does not detract from his accomplishment, of course.

On the one hand, we can look at this as hopeful, that the highest of the MA's practitioners always had their eyes on something higher than kicking ass.

On the other hand, one is put in mind of Dower's observation that the pablum of the 30's-40's militarists in Japan, slogans about divinity and harmony, were transferable pretty much unchanged to the new environment of democracy. During the war, the Jpn hadn't gone about proclaiming, "Brutality, rape, and slaughter" to epitomize their intentions. We ought possibly to take greater care in our satisfaction at aikido's vaunted high philosophy.

As always, caveat emptor.

And now that I've provided the requested example, I'd still like to know the extent of investigations into other MA among those voting yes.

Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 07-02-2006, 03:19 PM   #7
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

I voted yes. The other discipline I studied was self-defense for 14 years. I know the philosophy was different than the aikido that I train in.

I see differences in aikido philosophy on this board. What I consider aikido is much different that what many people here talk about.
Mary
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Old 07-03-2006, 04:55 AM   #8
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

I voted no. I think in and of themselves, the principles can be found in other Budo...though, perhaps they don't permeate the other budo quite like they do Aikido, generally speaking.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-03-2006, 05:19 AM   #9
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

I voted YES. I think Aikido does have 'extra' philosophy. But that does not mean I think it necessarily makes much sense. Basically, I think that the less the philosphy the more the martial. Or rather, the more the philospphy, the zanier you get.

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Old 07-03-2006, 07:56 AM   #10
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
What I consider aikido is much different that what many people here talk about.
- Mary Eastland.

Very provocative statement Mary; hope we hear more from you.

----

I voted 'yes'. I did so based on my experience, not (a lot of) intellectual research. I've studied Judo, Jujitsu, and Aikido. All Japanese martial arts.

What I experienced was a vague civic minded 'be a better person' from Judo. I got - 'live through battles' from Jujitsu. From Aikido I get - 'You have issues, meet yourself on the mat, forgive, heal, share with others'.

Obviously this doesn't mean it wasn't in the other martial arts, objectively speaking - and to discredit myself further, I'll add that it may just be that I've grown up and can now hear what the Kami offer.

David
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:00 AM   #11
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other b

Quote:
AikiWeb System wrote:
AikiWeb Poll for the week of July 2, 2006:

Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?
I would say no. All the martial arts contain the same philosophical principles, they are expressed fully, partially, differently by the founders, leaders or senseis if expressed at all.
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Old 07-03-2006, 11:29 PM   #12
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other b

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
I would say no. All the martial arts contain the same philosophical principles, they are expressed fully, partially, differently by the founders, leaders or senseis if expressed at all.
I agree...and still really like the example of music which was given. I'd say it's more a matter of different proportions than it is of different things.
Maybe we should ask what specific things are not included in other budo but which Aikido contains.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-04-2006, 04:18 PM   #13
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Actually, what makes aikido different is that an aikidoka is a missionary, becomes a missionary.And what is an aikidoka's mission? The Founder, O Sensei, is quoted as saying:
"Your mission is your prayer; we call it TakeMusu Aiki." An aikidoka is also called upon to
be aware of not only their immediate surroundings, but also aware of the world situation. The
second Doshu, Kisshomaru Ueshiba mentioned Aikido as being a social education for the future.
Aikido has grown in the last few decades and is now practiced in 87 countries.
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:55 PM   #14
mriehle
 
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

I voted "yes".

Not because there are individual philosophies in Aikido that are exclusive. There aren't, IMO.

But because there is a synergy of philosophy that occurs in Aikido that - if not exclusive - is certainly unique. My exposure to martial arts has been broad, if shallow for most arts (Karate, Judo, Aikido, Kung Fu [sort of, I'm not convinced, now, that it was more than fancy karate], boxing, wrestling). Of these, only Judo and Aikido are arts I can claim any in-depth knowledge of, but the exposure is nonetheless there. And even the arts I have not trained in, I've spent more than a few hours in philosophical discussions with practitioners of the arts, enough to have a pretty good handle on the attitudes.

One difference - especially with Karate - is that most of these schools talk peace, but don't mean it. They teach you how to beat people up, then tell you not to. More than one Karateka I've known over the years has claimed a peaceful attitude, but buys into the "beat-the-tar-out-of-the-enemy" idea in a big way. Overcoming this dichotomy is what, I think, makes Aikido unique. Or, at least, the attempt to do so.

Because - let's be honest - even for those of us who sincerely pursue overcoming this dichotomy, how many of us succeed?

Learning not to view the person attacking you as the enemy. Learning to do so without giving up your right to not be attacked. Learning to promote your own personal safety without resorting to what most of us think of as self defense. These are not easy things to do. Often, they are not possible. But I believe they are possible more often that some people think and are always worthwhile goals even when they are not possible.

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Old 07-05-2006, 01:59 PM   #15
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Learning not to view the person attacking you as the enemy. Learning to do so without giving up your right to not be attacked. Learning to promote your own personal safety without resorting to what most of us think of as self defense. These are not easy things to do. Often, they are not possible. But I believe they are possible more often that some people think and are always worthwhile goals even when they are not possible.
Nice chunk of meat Mike. well said


david
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:26 AM   #16
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Yes,
for much the same reasons as the nice post just made by Michael.


my past experience to compare is various karate, judo, tai chi chuan, long fist kung fu, bagua, systema, iaido, kendo, wrestling.


very nice post Michael !

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Old 07-07-2006, 11:44 AM   #17
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Don M., just read your post. Thanks. Karl Friday's writing is soooo good.

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-07-2006, 01:13 PM   #18
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Don M., just read your post. Thanks. Karl Friday's writing is soooo good.
Yeah. I like the scholars--Friday, Bodiford, et al. ...

They think and write to a higher standard. Otherwise, aikido can be so chauvinistic and complacent, starting with the "Vatican/Soviet" attitude of Honbu.

(Free cup of coffee to anyone identifying the author of quoted comparison.)

Don J. Modesto
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:30 PM   #19
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any philosophical principles not present in any other budo?

Don M. -
Quote:
Free cup of coffee to anyone identifying the author of quoted comparison.)
Ha ha! So this is the 'water shed' block in cyber world, ay?

dave
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