Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-04-2001, 06:04 AM   #1
arvin m.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 36
Offline
boxers(no not the undergarments jim)

so anyway im watching boxing on tv right, and i see these guys really moving soooo quickly on their feet, and they get in nice and close and throw all thse hooks and jabs that look really nasty. Question of the day...say i get jumped by one of these chappies. First thing he's gonna do is to skipetty hoppity nice and close, danc earound and lay a few jabs on me or something. Those jabs and hooks are extraordinarily fast, and me as a blue belter am wondering if anyone would have the time to move out of the way via irmi or tenkan so quickly. So, do we attack Mr Big Bad Boxer as he's clsoing, like say, do an irimi behind him and execute iriminage, or do we wait for the punch.

Also, i was thinking( i tend to do this alot..mostly to my own grief)...if someone displays agressive behaviour and begins to walk towards u, do u wait for him to get up nice and close while still trying to calm him down or do u take the fight to him? I would take the fight to him, so i wouldnt have to find out if he was really gonna punch or not. Incidentally, this was inspired by tony soprano, where he gets real close to a guy on this boat and grabs his balls before the guy does anything...what if that happens to me?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2001, 06:46 AM   #2
pottertw
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1
Offline
Too close

I was recently in a confrontation late at night. This guy's screaming at me and getting closer and closer. Finally, he's right in my face. I step back instinctively into kamai and raise my hands, with the left hand up around his face. I tell him "stay back." This really pisses him off, and he screams more. I really want to "take the fight to him," as you say. However, knowing only Aikido--and only a little of that--I have no idea how to do it. A few seconds later, the guy just walks away, and I call the police. The end.

As far as I know, none of my instructors have ever had to "use" their Aikido in a fight. These are ordinary-looking guys living in the same world that I do. I think that relaxing and waiting for the other person to strike is one of the best strategies available to the Aikidoka, and that part of Aikido's greatness is enabling that restraint. Most would-be opponents probably will never strike unless struck first. The best way to survive a fight is not to have one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2001, 07:03 AM   #3
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Re: boxers(no not the undergarments jim)

Quote:
Originally posted by arvin m.
. Incidentally, this was inspired by tony soprano, where he gets real close to a guy on this boat and grabs his balls before the guy does anything...what if that happens to me?
I believe $25 is the usual fee, but no kissing

Anyway, for your first question, take out your bokken....execute suburi number 3.

Seriously, dont worry about it. You are just mentally testing yourself against everything, it's perfectly normal.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2001, 11:22 AM   #4
dainippon99
Dojo: Tulsa Aikido & Jujutsu
Location: Tulsa, OK
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 33
Offline
umm, i think you are waisting some serious energy worrying about this boxer thing. its all in the ma-ai. if your out of his range, he will try to punch you and will eventually over extend himself, or expose a gap in his zanshin, then thats when you'll move.

Always be well,
Bobby David
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2001, 03:30 PM   #5
REK
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
Offline
home court advantage

Or how about this:

If you're that interested in how your martial skills apply to boxing, train with some boxers periodically. Or better yet, train with them regularly. That's where Kuriowa Sensei started, and his aikido is amazing to watch.

The only way to be ready for anything is to train for everything. Once you realize this is unrealistic, your training will naturally evolve into a focus that works for you. Find it. Best wishes!


Rob

________________________
Mors certa, hora incerta
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2001, 10:06 PM   #6
Stuart
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13
Offline
kick kick kick

Boxers only box so if you want to win against a boxer, kick him in the face (or woman). Anyway you do it you will win as they can not handle kicks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 05:54 AM   #7
Tim Griffiths
Dojo: Nes Ziona Aikikai
Location: Suzhou, China
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 188
China
Offline
Re: kick kick kick

Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Boxers only box so if you want to win against a boxer, kick him in the face (or woman). Anyway you do it you will win as they can not handle kicks.
Firstly, never kick a boxer in the woman - it just annoys them..

Secondly, you're talking rubbish. What do you expect, that
a boxer will be attacking you, you throw a kick and he'll
stop and say "Help, I don't know how to deal with kicks,
I better just let it hit me and fall over". Clearly you haven't
tried this.
I've practiced with two boxers, and its not like training with
a karateka or TKD player. They don't stand off in the same
way, they come right in and knock you back, following up
with a strong series of blows. Both boxers welcomed
people to try to kick them, and the results were very funny
(these are karate and TKD people). The problem is that
you can't move and kick at the same time.

Also, boxers are *way* more combat-orientated than
karateka etc, as that's the way they train *all* the time.
Like Judo players, this makes a huge difference when
its time to play around after class...

In aikido, you can do something with an irimi, either waiting
or not, but it should be a reaction to the first strike, and it
should be decisive.

Tim

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 07:15 AM   #8
Mr.Skin
Location: Twin Cities
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 6
Offline
Distance

If someone is headed towards me aggesively, my first thought is to not let them get within kicking range. If you can't kick me you can't punch me, grab me or whatever. To keep distance, I'd step back. If I can't keep distance I'd intercept the attacker before he could attack.

Gavin

Gavin D.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 07:48 AM   #9
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Re: Re: kick kick kick

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Griffiths

Secondly, you're talking rubbish...
Tim
Perhaps it's just inexperience talking, not rubbish.

Still, this post is just becoming a 'This fighting style is better than that fighting style' argument.

Arvin M's original point was what to do in a particular situation. In real life you are rarely gifted a particular situation
People learn a lot more from failure than success. Stop worrying about it.
(Easier said than done, I know... but that's part of the failure, too. Worrying)
Signed...one of the Worlds Biggest Worriers

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 11:02 AM   #10
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
One thing Aikidoists seem to not get is that we aren't the only one's who understand timing and distance. Every combat/athletic art has this in it's practice. They have to. To implicitly assume that we will go to our ideal spacing, the opponent will punch, thereby overextending and we will irimi whatever them doesn't make much sense to me. They practice this just as much as we do and they know the risks of overextending. In fact, I'd think every boxer has discovered this to the detriment of their jaw, ribs or some other part of their body.

Also, sometimes you can't control the spacing. You get trapped by a car or a wall for instance. What then?

Last edited by Erik : 08-07-2001 at 11:32 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 12:36 PM   #11
Andrew Ishmael
Dojo: St. Louis Aikikai
Location: St.Louis
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1
Offline
I was interested enough in this discourse to register myself. I wanted to remind everyone that Aikido is about the avoiding of conflict. We do this by entering and blending. This happens much before the physical stage of conflict. Once the situation has escalated to the point of physical intimidation harmoy is gone. I say take it to them at that point. Force them to react to your chosen situation. If you strike towards their face and they block, you have tailor made ikkyo through gokyo. If they do not block then you have a strike to their face. Either way we are protecting ourself and stopping the situation.

P.S. Most people do not stop with one punch to the face, you might have to add a few more than that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 12:40 PM   #12
Jim23
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 482
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
One thing Aikidoists seem to not get is that we aren't the only one's who understand timing and distance. Every combat/athletic art has this in it's practice. They have to. To implicitly assume that we will go to our ideal spacing, the opponent will punch, thereby overextending and we will irimi whatever them doesn't make much sense to me. They practice this just as much as we do and they know the risks of overextending. In fact, I'd think every boxer has discovered this to the detriment of their jaw, ribs or some other part of their body.

Also, sometimes you can't control the spacing. You get trapped by a car or a wall for instance. What then?
This is what I've been saying for a while now. However, Erik says it much gooder than I.

I really enjoy my training - lots of good stuff there! But lots of rubbish thrown in also. Actually, let me explain a little (kinda busy now). In my opinion, aikido techniques are great training, but for self-defence much of it needs to be simplified. Just too many steps involved before the final lock or pin.

But, I know many people don't train for self-defence or even like to hear this stuff. It's the same with all martial arts.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 06:49 PM   #13
[Censored]
 
[Censored]'s Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 119
Offline
Incidentally, this was inspired by tony soprano, where he gets real close to a guy on this boat and grabs his balls before the guy does anything...what if that happens to me?

You have two free hands while your opponent has only one? We should all be so lucky

That is not a fighting technique, it is a pain compliance technique. Call his (or her) bluff and show him (or her) the difference between the two.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2001, 09:40 PM   #14
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
First off, I have NEVER lost a moments sleep worrying about someone grabbing my ovaries in a fighting situation. Perhaps if it is that big a deal, you should just have a little minor surgery
second, I think this IS a TV program we are worried about, so unless you are a main character you will probably soon be shot, anyway.
third, I think with all these my-art-vs-yours things, the most skilled, and perhaps luckiest, one will win that day. Perhaps a different one the next. Best situation: avoid being in those situations.
should never have taught me how to make these faces
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2001, 02:29 AM   #15
Tim Griffiths
Dojo: Nes Ziona Aikikai
Location: Suzhou, China
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 188
China
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
One thing Aikidoists seem to not get is that we aren't the only one's who understand timing and distance. Every combat/athletic art has this in it's practice. They have to. To implicitly assume that we will go to our ideal spacing, the opponent will punch, thereby overextending and we will irimi whatever them doesn't make much sense to me....
Also, sometimes you can't control the spacing. You get trapped by a car or a wall for instance. What then?
Well, the spacing is the whole trick, isn't it? How often do
we hear ourselves banging on about ma-ai and timing
(the same thing)? If you stand in the right place at the right
time, aikido (and life) becomes easy.

This is a very good reason, if not the best, to practice
swordwork, either aikiken, kendo or western fencing.
In either of the latter, the battle for the right distance is
the dominant factor in the game. It is a disadvantage
in normal aikido practice that uke is not trying to reach
his prefered ma-ai.

Having said that, aikido is very nice in that the ma-ai is
very flexible within a couple of feet. Not having enough
room is usually not a problem - closing the gap with
someone who has a good sense of spacing (like
a boxer, to drift back to topic) is much harder, for me
at least.

Quote:
Mark wrote:

Perhaps it's just inexperience talking, not rubbish.
I'm sure it is inexperience talking, its just inexperience
talking rubbish.

Tim

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2001, 08:31 AM   #16
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Atemi would be the one thing I don't think anyone has mentioned. No I don't mean studying karate (insert any other striking art here) for three years and then trying to trade blows with the guy.
Firstly when it comes to one art fighting another, it shouldn't really happen, but it might so I suppose there is a reason to train it. I don't think anyone who is proficient in karate/whatever would start a fight with you assuming you didn't start the fight with him. He is not going to waste years just to learn how to beat people in a fight. If that was his attitude to start with then it should change under the influence of the other students and the teacher over time. But again there are exceptions to ever rule and boxing and kick boxing are very different. These are what I would call ego driven arts you are taught to win at any cost and any amount of pain, hence a problem for us. But still these guy aren't going to be punks because you still need cash to learn. So the guy where most likely to see, the mugger or the drunk are not going be WELL educated. Once again there are exceptions so lets get to it.

As I said these guys can absorb a lot of pain so your atemi should be against effective places. Bruce Lee states in his book Tao of Jeet Kune Do (great book to learn how boxers move and think) the two primary targets are eyes and groin. So we have a boxing maneuver called slip and counter. This in aikido (well some karate) terms is an irimi to the outside of uke's attack with a brushing block (barai uke) with the leading hand and a counter punch (which would be a gyaku tsuki) by the rear hand. Know lets do what Mr. Lee suggests and thrust at the eyes with a spear hand or strike at the groin with a ridge hand instead, while the blocking hand grabs. We now have a useful atemi waza to use against a boxer's straight or cross depending if you move your front or back foot first. All this stuff is in there some where it's just been lost. All you have to do is think logically and simply and you can come up with things similar to this. Go to your library and grab a wing chung (spelling?) book and look at how they 'intercepted' attacks and counter. Now make it more aikidoish and you have an atemi waza that is useful. No this might not work for every style and ever maneuver but for some it will. If you don't like the idea of your class lining up in rows and columns leaning how to 'block and strike' then teach them (or practice them by yourself) as initial movement to your techniques. So for the example above you could grab uke's wrist with your blocking hand add a rotation and then kote gaeshi.

All I want to do here is to get people to go and research, answer the questions you have yourself don't wait for someone who might not know to teach you what you might consider important to know. It kind of reminds me of my English Literature, my teacher kept telling us to go to the library and I just kept thinking I paid for you to teach me not the library. I guess I learned something from him after all.

PS Timing and maai are what its all about and I suggest you buy Musashi's Gorinnosho to learn strategy in a fight.

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2001, 11:25 AM   #17
[Censored]
 
[Censored]'s Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 119
Offline
...He is not going to waste years just to learn how to beat people in a fight. If that was his attitude to start with then it should change under the influence of the other students and the teacher over time. But again there are exceptions to ever rule and boxing and kick boxing are very different. These are what I would call ego driven arts you are taught to win at any cost and any amount of pain, hence a problem for us.

I could name a few who, perhaps, didn't "waste enough years". Unfortunately, many of them are no longer with us.

You think that martial arts that seek to win at any cost are ego-driven and hence inferior? Do you know what the stakes are?

The cost of losing may be your life. YES, YOU MUST WIN "at any cost and any amount of pain". This is the very definition of martial art. Take it away, you are left with interpretive dance and psycho-babble.

Of course, that's just as good, everybody is special, whatever you want is correct, it's only a matter of opinion, etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2001, 12:16 PM   #18
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23


This is what I've been saying for a while now. However, Erik says it much gooder than I.

I really enjoy my training - lots of good stuff there! But lots of rubbish thrown in also. Actually, let me explain a little (kinda busy now). In my opinion, aikido techniques are great training, but for self-defence much of it needs to be simplified. Just too many steps involved before the final lock or pin.

But, I know many people don't train for self-defence or even like to hear this stuff. It's the same with all martial arts.

Jim, I agree and disagree with you. Let me explain.

I agree with your assesment that there are too many steps to the pin....however, I agree because I am a beginner as I assume you are. (A year or so I believe you've said in other post, I could be wrong).

I disagree because when I have practiced with some of our more senior students, or Sensei is Nage, everything is blended into one smooth movement and takes very little time..
There are no "steps". It is one simple, quick, smooth movement. I think this is where alot of the "Aikdo doesn't work in a fight" attitudes come into play. Because it takes many years to get to that point, and as Jim has pointed out many times...there are alot of sloppy aikidoka (raises hand, me me me, I'm one!!!)



Jim23

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2001, 12:27 PM   #19
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Unhappy

OK, apparently I did that wrong, but you can see where Jim's post ends and my begins if you look reaaaaaaaalllly hard.

:-) Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2001, 01:17 PM   #20
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Kenn
OK, apparently I did that wrong, but you can see where Jim's post ends and my begins if you look reaaaaaaaalllly hard.

:-) Kenn
Hi Kenn.

You can edit prior posts by clicking on that image with the E and the pencil in it.

Hey, how come the IMG tags don't work? They just gave me a link as follows:



or

[IMG]images/edit.gif[/IMG]

The bottom one is the one you want.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:13 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate