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Old 06-21-2006, 05:29 PM   #1
ald1225
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Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Been a while since I visited the boards, it's also been a while since I practiced aikido. I had to move out to a place that's quite far from the dojo and unable to practice but I still love Aikido (hopefully that makes sense). Due to this what I do is watch videos online and try it on my shadow uke I thought I'd share these videos:

Ljubomir Vračarević
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qD_Xqo5iT3Q

Seagal:
Part 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=XyyFlHhtWoI
Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI

I know this is not a hapkido board but I thought some moves are quite interesting/slight variations

Hapkido:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0yZihj8Fi98
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:26 PM   #2
aikidoc
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Interesting videos. I'm glad the Korean Ukes are flexible-he would have broke every joint in my arm- Ouch.
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:39 PM   #3
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

That Hapikdo video was cool I say. With my current knowledge of technique, it all looked very simmilar to Aikido in my eyes.
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:41 PM   #4
Tom Johnson
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Those two Steven Segal clips are segments of a longer documentary on him....I have it on Ares, it's about 53minutes long or something along those lines. Pretty good film.
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:39 PM   #5
ChrisMoses
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
That Hapikdo video was cool I say. With my current knowledge of technique, it all looked very simmilar to Aikido in my eyes.
I saw a lot of flash, a lot of acrobatics and nearly NO meaningful kuzuhi of any kind. I also saw plenty of highfalls from strikes, that just doesn't happen, not the way they played out in that video. It's great he's that slick at his age, and he's probably bad-ass, but that video doesn't do it for me.
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:45 PM   #6
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

I wouldn't try and steal the guys lunch.

When my uke taps once I tend to let go, this guy seems like he is intentionally hurting them no?
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:49 PM   #7
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I saw a lot of flash, a lot of acrobatics and nearly NO meaningful kuzuhi of any kind. I also saw plenty of highfalls from strikes, that just doesn't happen, not the way they played out in that video. It's great he's that slick at his age, and he's probably bad-ass, but that video doesn't do it for me.
I cannot see that far into it

Last edited by Mike Hamer : 06-21-2006 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:42 PM   #8
Talon
 
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Another thing that struck me about the Hapkido clip is all the techniques were performed from a very static attack. They guy just stands there. Who grabs your wrist and stands there for you to throw him? Very first basic Aikido is done like that but after that everything is done with movement, pulling uke, pushing uke etc. I thought it was fast and flashy but not very realistic. If our attacks are considered unrealistic, I'm not sure what those would be labeled at. i say you have to have movement and dynamics in all of this to get these techniques to work against someone who is actually intending to hit you,grab, you etc without stopping and just standing there for you to throw/lock him.

My limited experience leads me to this train of thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:24 AM   #9
DonMagee
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
I wouldn't try and steal the guys lunch.

When my uke taps once I tend to let go, this guy seems like he is intentionally hurting them no?
He could know his uke. I know a lot of guys who tap for effect, not because they are in any pain, they just want you to look good. Plus it's likley a demo and they could of planned it. Its very common to see people do things like that to make the 'show' look better.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:26 AM   #10
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

I agree with Chris. No real kuzushi. As to the tapping, many locks are quite painful (some styles accentuate the pain compliance portion). And some styles (unlike most aikido) use tapping to show your partner the lock is on, not as an indication to stop the technique. The mainline school of Daito ryu is much the same as regards the tapping.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:47 PM   #11
Raspado
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Anyone know who the woman is in the 2nd Seagal video? I'm going to post these on a bjj forum and see what they have to say.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:03 PM   #12
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
I'm going to post these on a bjj forum and see what they have to say.
Uh, just curious...why would we (or you, or anyone) care what they have to say?

Best,
Ron (maybe I missed something here?)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:05 PM   #13
Raspado
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

It's called being a troll Ron.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:09 PM   #14
Tom Johnson
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
Anyone know who the woman is in the 2nd Seagal video? I'm going to post these on a bjj forum and see what they have to say.
Debbie Corman - she's introduced in the full length version i have on Ares....1st kyu is her rank (or was when the movie was made)
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:15 PM   #15
Raspado
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Does she still train?
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:21 PM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Oh....ok, as long as YOU said it, not me...

Best,
Ron (I doubt anyone doing bjj would deal with 3 attackers by taking them to the ground...they'd just say it's crazy to think you can deal with 3 attackers)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:25 PM   #17
Raspado
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Yes--I said it! No they wouldn't. If they were smart, they'd run.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:59 PM   #18
Tom Johnson
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
Does she still train?
Not sure, i just watched the beginning of the video and looked for her name since you asked. Beyond what she says in the video i have know knowledge of her
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:10 PM   #19
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
If they were smart, they'd run.
What if they can run faster angery than you can scared

I think BJJ is pretty cool, posting aikido videos there will probably get you an ear full (eye full?) of crap talk however.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:21 AM   #20
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Why's the guy dressed like a ninja?

Sorry, had to ask.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:48 AM   #21
Tom Johnson
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Just realied the movie i was talking about earlier was Steven Segal's "Aikido: The Path Beyond Thought"....theres a few links to it on this site, i'm just slow and didnt realize it
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:09 PM   #22
aiki03
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I The mainline school of Daito ryu is much the same as regards the tapping.
Ron

I do Daito Ryu. We are to tap when when the pain is too much. Not just to signal to our partner the 'lock is on'.

合気03. Peace.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:59 PM   #23
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I saw a lot of flash, a lot of acrobatics and nearly NO meaningful kuzuhi of any kind. I also saw plenty of highfalls from strikes, that just doesn't happen, not the way they played out in that video. It's great he's that slick at his age, and he's probably bad-ass, but that video doesn't do it for me.
Hi Chris,
I think you are wrong on this one... I don't quarrel with the thought that the ukemi is purposely dramatic but the techniques shown are mostly leverage techniques in which a lot of pressure is going in to the joints, especially the elbow. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be caught flat footed when one of those got cranked in me. The old guy's arms were completly relaxed, he used his hip power and body weight effectively. Everythrow dropped the partner into a hole which the old guy had created and the majority of the techniques involved stretching out the partner and sliding that extension into the hole created by the leverage against the joints.

Of course, it's a demo. He largely left out the atemi which would help nuetralize the partner's ability to run a counter. They did everything from close to static. It didn't look like the old guy had any trouble moving however. But there wasn't any technique in the demo in which I thought the uke "tanked" for the old man.

It's very interesting to see these "older" versions of our technique. Everything is closer to the body, much more emphasis on leverage against the joints to get the uke moving off his base than what is typically done these days in Aikido.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 06-23-2006, 01:41 PM   #24
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Good points George. But when I looked closely at the reaction of uke to the waza, I only saw the kind of shudder/stutter step I often associate with that kind of close, static kuzushi once or twice.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-23-2006, 03:56 PM   #25
ChrisMoses
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Re: Seagal Video+Hapkido Video

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Hi Chris,
I think you are wrong on this one... I don't quarrel with the thought that the ukemi is purposely dramatic but the techniques shown are mostly leverage techniques in which a lot of pressure is going in to the joints, especially the elbow. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be caught flat footed when one of those got cranked in me. The old guy's arms were completly relaxed, he used his hip power and body weight effectively. Everythrow dropped the partner into a hole which the old guy had created and the majority of the techniques involved stretching out the partner and sliding that extension into the hole created by the leverage against the joints.

Of course, it's a demo. He largely left out the atemi which would help nuetralize the partner's ability to run a counter. They did everything from close to static. It didn't look like the old guy had any trouble moving however. But there wasn't any technique in the demo in which I thought the uke "tanked" for the old man.

It's very interesting to see these "older" versions of our technique. Everything is closer to the body, much more emphasis on leverage against the joints to get the uke moving off his base than what is typically done these days in Aikido.
You're obviously welcome to disagree. You'll note however that I didn't say that what he was doing wouldn't work, I did say that I saw no real kuzushi. I see a lot of leveraging joints, but he does not control the encounter through any meaningful kuzushi even in the longer more complicated manuvers. I'll also disagree with your comments on the atemi, he shouldn't need atemi in order keep his partner from countering, if he's relying on that, the technique is already blown.

Some specifics:
1:28- uke takes a spectacular highfall from an atemi. I'm not saying that getting hit here wouldn't work, but people don't fall like that from getting hit in the jaw, and he does not control the encounter leading up to the strike. There are easier ways to punch someone in the face.

2:01- A good example of how uke simply follows his movements despite nage having no real kuzushi that's affecting his core. Watch uke's footwork and shoulders.

2:39- Watch uke's body language during this shihonage type throw. He's fully balanced while nage moves around him and then uses simple torque and leverage to dump the guy. Again there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but aiki/ju arts SHOULD do better.

3:00- This is a good shot of the 'behind the back' kotegaeshi. Note how relaxed uke's body is throughout this movement and how he's completely balanced right up until being thrown and then he takes his fall. Nage is not controlling the encounter, but running around and finally cranking on a joint. You can also see that uke is already headed into the throw before nage has his second hand in position to stabilize the wrist lock. Not impressive to me.

4:34- Note uke's body language and how much slack is visible in the arm being used to throw.

5:41- Again note how totally balanced uke's body is throughout this very complicated manuver. You can see the slack between uke and nage as uke's arm is extended and retracted all without affecting his torso one bit, then nage finishes with uke taking a flashy fall.

Hope that's helpful in understanding my comments.
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