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Old 07-14-2006, 04:09 AM   #201
statisticool
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Here's my contribution to the ruckus:

http://www.statisticool.com/fights.htm

WIth professional sports, there is typically a lot of $ involved, and I have no way of knowing if matches are fixed, or what the real rules are in the contracts, despite high levels of contact.

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:17 AM   #202
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Here's my contribution to the ruckus:

http://www.statisticool.com/fights.htm

WIth professional sports, there is typically a lot of $ involved, and I have no way of knowing if matches are fixed, or what the real rules are in the contracts, despite high levels of contact.
Hi, Justin. Interesting article. I'd like to raise too points:

The first is that while professional MMA events don't mirror reality as closely as they claim -- that TMA can work in real life demonstrates that -- that doesn't mean someone from an average dojo should get cocky. After a recent pay-per-view event, my Kali instructor gave a little speech to the effect that people don't lose those events (assuming they're not fixed, of course) because they suck but because they face someone who's better -- maybe younger, hungrier, more skilled. I think if MOST Aikido people went up against one of these guys would get killed. That doesn't mean Aikido sucks or that we, as Aikido practitioners suck, just that these gentlemen are very good. O Sensei could problaby pin one of these guys with his thumb; the rest of us, however, are not O Sensei.

I guess I'm saying is to be careful not to let your ego and your pride cloud your beliefs. Just because we're closer to reality on that chart than them doesn't mean we're better, it's just we have different priorities. (Personally, the gentlemen I've met who have doen such events at an amateur level are really nice guys, and I bet would be more interested in taking Aikido than lording over it. But that's just me.)

The other point is on the word "fad." This implies that MMA will come ago and leave us alone and we won't have to worry about it anymore.

Wrong.

The current popular interest may come and go, but the schools formed during this period will not. At one time or another over the last 50 year, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, and Ninjitsu all enjoyed an upsurge in popular interest, IOW they were the fad du jour. But when the fad fades, legitimate schools were left behind. That's why long after he made a name by being in TV and movies, and can -- and have -- signed up for a class in Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu. So, we can say that now, yes, it is MMA's turn to be the fad. But the MMA schools opening now won't go with the fad, if they play their cards right. And this, again, is not a bad thing; the only practical implication for the Aikido world is the background of the people who join the dojo. Historically it may have been people who started off in Judo and Karate; now add BJJ, Thai Boxing, and other such systems to the mix.

So I liked the article and agreed with some points. But I just wanted to add:

1. Don't let your ego cloud your judgment

2. MMA schools won't go away even if MMA events do.

Just a few thoughts.
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:21 PM   #203
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I wouldn't worry about Pro MMA fights being fixed. I know this because I know a few pro MMA fighters (both on large circuits and small cirucits). I've trained with them and I know they are fighting to win, they get paid to win. Its like boxing, yes there have been fixed fights in boxing i'm sure, but there are athletic commisions and gambling to keep it honest. Of course those same athletic commisions are why the rules have been paired down the way they are. Although I dont feel there is anything wrong with that. Also MMA fighitng may be a fad in the USA, but it is much more then that in brazil, japan, and other places.

Michael, your kali instructor made a great point, the winner is usually who wants it more. This is because for the best fight you need to pair up fighters of equal skill. The end result is who wants it more. The guy who wants it more will run that extra mile, doing the extra sparing, and drill down on more technique. Look at chuck Liddel vs Randy Couture, both are very skilled fighters with arguably the same amount of skill. The winner was decided by a slight difference in strategy and desire to push the fight. You can't say either fighter was better then the other.

Justin, I read the link you posted and I personally do not agree with it. It places sports at a realm much lower then it belongs. Elements of sports training lends themselves to physical conflict better then non sport training. You can't argue that a judo guy who only does judo kata will be better at self defense then a judo guy who trains for competition. The judo guy training for competition will be in better physical shape, have developed his own judo (tactics, tricks, movements, throws, etc), he will have actually experiance with someone resisting his attempts to throw, and finally he will be used to getting thrown down and fighting against an oppressive opponent (assuming he fights people better then him). Further more, you dont need a martial art to teach you to run away, or negotiate, there is much better training for that then martial arts. So we are left with martial arts dealing with the point where a problem becomes physical. It should be obvious to anyone that the closer you can get to a real fight, the more experiance you will have at dealing with a real fight. When i train in the gym, I spar guys bigger then me, stronger then me, smaller then me, faster then me, more technical then me, and all of the above. When I compete the only thing I know is the guy I'm about to fight is around my weight. I have to deal with my nerves, the knowedge that the person i'm facing is trying to hurt me. Getting hit, thrown, landed on, choked, etc, and I have to be mentally prepared to do the same back to him. These are all very important skills you will need if you have to defend yourself beyond the verbal realm. This makes a sport fight a lot closer then a scripted kata in my opinion.

What I have never seen addressed by people against sport fighting is how traditional training better prepares you for a street fight. Is it the clothes you wear? The enviroment you train in? The realistic attacks? How do you develop the experiance needed to perform when you are attacked? How do you learn to deal with unexpected responses when your techniques fail? I have yet to hear a reason why the illegal techniques that you can't really train anyways (eye gouges, bites, groin strikes, etc) can't be used by a MMA fighter? I would say that a restricted rulset helps you develop better basics (remember basics are always the key to the martial arts) becuase you learn to use techniques that have a higher precentage chance of working vs change techniques that may or may not work (RNC vs pressure point knock out, or shrimping out of the half guard vs eye gouge). I have yet to hear how non sport training (which I will assume means low or non contant sparing, or even no sparing) deals with the holes that develop in your technique though not actually having someone resist it. How do you learn that going for an eye gouge from the mount will get your arm broken by armbar? How do you learn that attempting to guilitene choke from the bottom of a side mount will get you stuck in a keylock? More importantly how do you learn to feel what someone is trying to do to you so you can defend it properly and not set them up to hurt you in another way? How do you learn to throw a high kick without getting dumped on your butt? How do you learn to slip a jab? How do you learn to keep a person from throwing you? How do you learn to keep a person from clinching you? How do you learn to get up when you have been taken down safely? All these things can't be taught, they have to be learned though trial and error.

Obviously sport fighting is not a street fight, but neither is a compliant drill or a kata. Sport fighting can reason that they are actually using their technqiues against a person trying to do the same. What is the position of non-sport people? Usually instead of saying this is how our training better prepares you, they will instead harp on sport fighting not being realistic. Real self defense is not knowing a hundred ways to hurt someone, its about knowing the basics and being able to use them against a person who is trying to hurt you. I can teach you the moves, I can even teach you to look great doing them. I can not teach you to use them. Only sparing can do that. Of course some people are just awesome from the start, they were awesome before martial arts, and better after martial arts. They might not need to spar and it may be natural to use the moves. But do you want to bank you are that man? I don't. Others will say you do not need to train to fight a bjj guy, or fight a kickboxer, or fight a judo guy because the average guy in the street has no training. I ask if you want to take that chance that the guy who decides to attack you wans't an all state wrestler who's life went down the tubes after highschool? I wouldn't want to risk the chance the guy I have to fight is not an average joe.

The final comment I will make is on being humble. I see many "traditional" schools that speak about how invincible they are. They have never tested their skills and they teach their students to really belive outlandish things. Things like : I can't be taken to the ground, or I can't get hit, or this will break his ribs, etc. This is very dangerous, and for people attacked to these arts (tipically people who have a fear they are trying to deal with) it is giving them false confidence and just might get them hurt.

At a MMA school you will see a lot of false bravado, you will see a lot of testosterone slinging, but you will very humble guys about their skill. They are humble because every single day they are getting tapped out, they are losing fights. And they know for a fact their is no 100%, everything can fail, they will never be the biggest, strongest, fasters, or more technical attacker, and the ones who dont just having gotten it tapped out of them yet. You will be hard pressed to find a MMA guy telling you that doing something will prevent something else. He will admit that every technique can fail, you can't count on deadly attacks, knock out blows, etc. You have to be ready to adapt, and he has real life experiance in adapting. The only problem is you will be punched in the face, you will be thrown, you will be choked, you will be slamed, you will get a elbow grinded into your throat, etc. The positive side is the negitives will only happen if you cant' stop them from happening.

I have trained with a lot of guys who have come to my house, came into the gym I train in, or met at friends houses that were in traditional martial arts. I also went to MMA from traditional arts. It is obvious to me that 90% of the people I trained with (and myself included) where not even closed to being prepared to fight a person in the ring. Even after all my judo training, TKD training, aikido training, krav maga, etc, I was not prepared for the MMA enviorment. I ended up just like all the other 'traditional' guys I spar with now do. I ended up flailing and spazing out while I got man handled by a 3-6 month MMA student. I've been training traditional arts for around 10 years! I even have a black belt in TKD. My first night I was paired up with a man who was 30 pounds lighter than I was with 6 months training and no previous sport or martial art exp. I spent the time on the defensive getting tapped over and over by this guy. If I can't handle a sport fight with a single known opponent who I can train for, how can I ever expect to handle a street fight with an unknown attacker, possibly weapons or multiple combatants?? It just doesn't make sense.

Its important to be honest about your training. Make sure you are training in the best way for your results. Train for history, train for exposure to cultures, train for sport, train for fitness, etc. But training for self defense requires that you take steps beyond that offered in the classical 'non-sport' martial arts. To really be good at fighting you are not only going to have to learn techniques, but you are going to have to actually fight as close to what you are trying to prepare yourself to as possible. There is no substitute for experiance. And if you are that serious about self defense, look into a body guard, a weapon, or moving somewhere safer. If you expect to take on a person or person in the street without every having done hard sparing you are going to find yourself in a lot of trouble. Unless you are a natural tough guy.

its not the art that makes a good fighter, its the person and the training method. It should be obvious that the MMA training method is better at making fighters, if only because the entire purpose is to make fighters. Do you want to be a fighter or do you want something else? I really dont believe aikido's purpose was to make fighters.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:36 PM   #204
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I am getting ready to drop some big bucks on Blauer suits and training to integrate my combatives into our CQB and Urban Breach courses. Hehehe http://www.tonyblauer.com/

Training for reality is multifaceted. you have to figure out the objectives, strategies, rules of engagement, scenarios, and all that good stuff, then build your training strategy around it.

There is no one methodology that works, that is, you can't just train at full combat speed realistically and call it a day.

We develop "pillars" and then "layer" methodologies. i.e. we fire real bullets at targets, but use simunitions at people. We don't train simunition necessarily with ground fighiting, but train that kind of stuff in the dojo. once you create your training "Map" you have "overlaps" which allow you to safely train and "bridge" the areas to "reality". done properly this is how you develop a training strategy for "real fighting".

Most MMA guys do the same thing to train for MMA fights. You don't jump in the ring and go full force everyday of the week.

Don, your comments are spot on. Aikido is not about making good fighters, but good budoka. While the two may be related in many ways, two different things really. Although I would contend to be a good fighter you need to follow many/most of the tenants of budo. however the inverse is not necessarily true.
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:45 PM   #205
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Justin,

I will have to go back and refresh my memory on correct statistics terminology, but I don't think you are correct in your model.

assumption you make is that most dojo's are in the center. You need to explain your criteria a little more as I do not agree. Frankly I am struggling to see the correalation...I suspect that it is false, but I will need to think about it more.

MMA/UFC sport fighitng is definitely closer to reality than the "normal" dojo. In the normal dojo you are practicing budo, or kata, or a number of things that do not approimate even closely the stress, variables, and reality of a real fight.

Also, you have made some assumptions about street fighting and what that means, without defining the term. In my mind, street fighting is a broad topic and one in which no amount of "empty hand" martial training or weapons training may successfully prepare you for.

I don't think there is a neat correalation that can be made between contact level and degree of reality, as there are many other variables such as element of suprise, weapon disparity, condition of the people, number of people etc that come into play.
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:50 PM   #206
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I have to agree with you Kevin, you condensed my ramblings into the points I was trying to make.

I never looked at it from pillars and layers. I was looking at it from delivery systems, philosphy, and experiance. (technique, mindset, and sparing)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:55 PM   #207
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Thanks. I have the benefit of Army training doctrine because I am in charge of training at one of our three major training centers. It is essentially how we do things in the army. A proven methodology that allows you to train safely and extrapolate your experiences into reality.
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Old 07-14-2006, 01:28 PM   #208
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Good points Don.

Your experiences closely mirror my own. I switched to Sambo/MMA after years in Aikido as well. I will still train in Aikido on occasion, seminars and the like, but 95% of my training is spent elsewhere.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:00 PM   #209
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
..... What I have never seen addressed by people against sport fighting is how traditional training better prepares you for a street fight .....
That is a good question. The good answer is "I don't know."

I have observed from reading Black Belt that if you read it long enough, sooner or later, you see every martial art you can think of backed by someone who claims it works in real life. I also recall many years ago when a girl in the karate class I was in, and yes, it was a traditional karate class, crediting her kata training with getting her out of a sticky situation. (I didn't overhear all the details, just that she "knew" what to do.) Getting into Aikido, if you hunt around through the threads here, you will see the odd testimonial by someone claiming to use their training in real life.

Of course, the people who don't like TMA may respond, "Well, it might work against and untrained fighter ..... " but that qualifier demolishes the idea that MMA mirror reali fights. If it did, then what didn't work in MMA would NEVER work in reality, no exceptions. That there are exceptions means MMA events aren't an accurate predictor of reality. It may be more demanding than many people train for, but it is not quite there.

Other than that, you would have to do scientific surveys of martial artist and what, exactly, training does for them.

Quote:
..... Sport fighting can reason that they are actually using their technqiues against a person trying to do the same .....
But then the next question is, "Why would you expect someone to try and do the same moves you used?" I once helped out with a woman's self defense class at the school where I started Kali, and they did not teach the women how to deal with someone who squared off with them in a boxing stance and said, "Let's go, bitch!" Instead we worked on, you guessed it, some simple moves for a wrist grab. According to Guro Andy, every self defense system in the world has counters to such grab. What else do you see? I once saw a brawl at a hocky game where where two palyers had grabbed each other's collars and were pummeling each other with their free hands. Oddly enough, Aikido works toward just such grab-and-strike scenarios. In fact, the whole point of a wrist grab is not that the grab is bad, but you want to forestall whatever is coming after it.

Also you have to remember that "on the Street," the other person won't know what you know and you won't know what he knows. So it's unlilely he'll know how to counter you. Furthermore, trained martial artists are rare in our culture. Or as Guro Andy puts it, "Grapplers make it sound like everyone and their uncle is doing Brazillian jiu-jitsu, but I have yet to meet someone at random who can do it." And yes, he is quite skilled in grappling, from both the Filipino Dumog system and things like BJJ and Shoot, which come down from his (and mine) Kali instructor, Guro Kevin Seaman.

So if you want to ask questions about street fighting, I sugges you ask, "What sort of attacks do I really have to worry about?" Is it really someone who is going to try and box you or grapple you? Or something else? Martial arts and self defense are related, but not always the same thing. Asking yourself what that means in the context of MMA would be a good place to start.
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:45 PM   #210
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
What I have never seen addressed by people against sport fighting is how traditional training better prepares you for a street fight.
I don't think it is being "against sport fighting" but being against the oft-heard argument that what does/doesn't go on in sport/entertainment determines what can/can't happen in real life self defense situations.

Quote:
Is it the clothes you wear? The enviroment you train in? The realistic attacks? How do you develop the experiance needed to perform when you are attacked? How do you learn to deal with unexpected responses when your techniques fail?
Thugs are just not well-trained like Liddel and Hughes. I wouldn't train to expect to fight someone like them just like I wouldn't practice basketball to expect to encounter Michael Jordan on the basketball court.

If I do, I'll regret my choice, of course, much like I'd regret studying martial arts instead of practicing shooting, or those who practice shooting regret not owning a tank.

Quote:
Usually instead of saying this is how our training better prepares you, they will instead harp on sport fighting not being realistic.
I typically point out that pre-1993 and pre-video cameras people could still fight, and there's more years of that than years since then. There's plenty of news articles about people using their non-MMA martial art to defend themself in real life situations, so that is encouragement.

Quote:
I wouldn't want to risk the chance the guy I have to fight is not an average joe.
I can see how some don't want to waste resources thinking it will be, and train harder and possibly get more injuries, possibly get more aggressive, etc.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:56 PM   #211
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
assumption you make is that most dojo's are in the center. You need to explain your criteria a little more as I do not agree.
You may not agree, but this doesn't mean I need to explain it any more, as I am not trying to convince you.

Quote:
MMA/UFC sport fighitng is definitely closer to reality than the "normal" dojo. In the normal dojo you are practicing budo, or kata, or a number of things that do not approimate even closely the stress, variables, and reality of a real fight.
RBSD dojos, which train on uneven ground, different lighting, with trash on the ground, etc., which is certainly more real situation than MMA/UFC sport fighting.

Quote:
..there are many other variables such as element of suprise, weapon disparity, condition of the people, number of people etc that come into play.
Definitely. I chose the ones I thought were most relevant; level of contact, and how likely the situation is to be found in real daily life.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:22 PM   #212
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I think you guys put Luc Saroufim to sleep.
Luc, Luc are you still awake?
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:53 AM   #213
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Justin,

Most RBSD dojos don't really get it. They contrive scenarios and practice those scenarios with in the parameters that they assume will happen. The ones that I have been to make many wrong assumptions about what occurs. Many are about making money and appeal to the irrational emotions and fear that people have concerning violence and attacks.

They offer what is seemingly logical attacks that they say you will encounter in real life and that is what they practice.

If they were true in what they practiced, they would be out of business in a short time, because the point is, that you can be taught what to do in most situations in a short time, or that you are going to be so overwhelmed that you won't have a chance. Not a way to make money in commmercial enterprise.

Sure there are advantages to fighitng on uneven ground, and street clothing etc. However, in realty, and I believe you state it, Thugs don't care about your training, they seize the advantage and make damn sure that they can take you, way before you consider them. They typically attack soft targets. I could go on and on....but the point is, RBSD appeal to fear and emotions that typically do very little in a real fight.

Now to sport fighting and MMA. There are some good skills to be garnered out of this type of fighitng, fighting spirit, will to go on, how to overcome adrenalin and emotions, anaerobic overload and the like.

Will it ultimately help you survive a real encounter? who knows?

If you really get at the core of RBSD, you will find that typically there is not much there that is of real value over a TMA or MMA dojo training. Mainly warm and fuzzies.
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Old 07-15-2006, 03:23 PM   #214
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
But then the next question is, "Why would you expect someone to try and do the same moves you used?"
Thats the best part about MMA, I have never fought a guy who used the 'same moves' I used. Everyone trains different with different ideas, different teachers, and different moves. I'm a boxing/bjj/judo guy. I've seen wrestlers, tkd guys, karate guys, sambo/maui thai guys, 'street fighters', etc. Its not two bjj guys going at it, its guys with all sorts of different skill sets and ideas. Some guys want to ground and pound, some guys want to box, some guys want to submit you. Some guys dont have a clue what they are doing and just blind rage rush you. Check out some amature mma events.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Also you have to remember that "on the Street," the other person won't know what you know and you won't know what he knows. So it's unlilely he'll know how to counter you. Furthermore, trained martial artists are rare in our culture.
Maybe your culture doesn't have a big wrestler base, but around here most men where either football players or wrestlers. I work at a college and most kids I talk to and ask about martial arts have some wrestling training or football training, both of these types tend to take it to the ground in a matcho bar brawl (as opposed to a robbery, or some other kind of altercation).

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
So if you want to ask questions about street fighting, I sugges you ask, "What sort of attacks do I really have to worry about?" Is it really someone who is going to try and box you or grapple you? Or something else? Martial arts and self defense are related, but not always the same thing. Asking yourself what that means in the context of MMA would be a good place to start.
I have to worry about a few things, guns, knifes, strikes, tackles, and ground and pound. I doubt I need to worry about a armbar, or keylock. Either the guy is out to rob me, in which case he has weapons and I will do my best to give him my wallet and be safe, or he is in a bar, we are drunk and he attacks me becuase of some mark on his honor. This usually is punching, kicking, clinch, or takedown and pound type guys. This sound an awful lot like what I train to deal with, unknown guys who are attempting to strike, takedown, clinch, etc agaisnt me.

I have done the Traditional route, I have a black belt in TKD, I've studied other arts for various lenghts of time, I have spent time in RBSD enviorments, I spent a long time in krav maga. However, none of this did me any good against mildy trained sport fighters. I spent a long time just getting taken apart by them, I couldnt deal with their stirkes, I couldn't deal with their clinch, I couldnt deal with the takedowns, I couldn't deal with them on the ground. Hell I wasn't even in a good position to eye gouge. I had never been choked the way they were choking me, I had never been hit hard like they were hitting me. I never experianced trying to block a punch only to have my own hand punch me in the face. I had never been picked up 4 feet off the ground while trying to stop a takedown with elbows and slamed so hard I had to go home and lay down.

Now its different. When a guy comes in, I see the old me. I see a guy who is not prepared for what he is about to get into. I see them go though the same trials I had to deal with, and I see a lot of them make excuses as to why their training wasn't enough. I've had guys tell me they could of broken my fingers to escape, or eye gouged me, or grion striked me, etc. Except for when I tell them to give it a try, it never seems to work. Because I am used to maintaining control over people who are trying their best to hurt me. Their fumbling and spazzing out really doesn't bother me anymore, their pressure point's, knuckles on the ribs, etc dont bother me. Right now I have someone's thumb print bruised into my arm from fridays training. It didn't stop him from getting choked out.

The best part is none of these techniques are new, none of them are missing from traditional arts. In japanese juijitsu, bjj, and judo you will find the same hip toss, the same armbar, the same triangle choke, and the same wrist lock. The difference is the experaince in learning how to use these things against someone who isn't letting you use them. Sure you can learn how to use them without this type of training, but this kind of training is more efficent, and has a higher percentage chance of producing people who can use the techniques. If I go into a traditional martial arts school I would expect to find a few black belts that can give me a run for my money in sparing. If I go into a few mma gyms I expect to find a lot of people (at least more than 3/4ths of the people there) that can give me a run for my money. The reaons are simple. Most of them will be in better physical shape though harder training. Most of them will have learned different ways and methods for using the technqiues taught though resistant sparing, and most of them will be used to the level of resistance I am apply and thus keep their cardio under control and their adrenaline under control.

My thoughs on this are simple. If I can't handle a random amature mma guy in the ring, I can't expect to handle people in the street where there are more dangerous variables.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-16-2006, 10:45 AM   #215
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Thats the best part about MMA, I have never fought a guy who used the 'same moves' I used ......
Yes, but you said you had leanred to apply the techniqeus against someone using "the same thing." A mild hair splitting.

Quote:
Maybe your culture doesn't have a big wrestler base, but around here most men where either football players or wrestlers. I work at a college and most kids I talk to and ask about martial arts have some wrestling training or football training, both of these types tend to take it to the ground in a matcho bar brawl (as opposed to a robbery, or some other kind of altercation).
Ahem Living as I do in the middle of New York State, I live in the same "culture" you do. There's no need to get snide about it.

Quote:
..... I have done the Traditional route, I have a black belt in TKD, I've studied other arts for various lenghts of time, I have spent time in RBSD enviorments, I spent a long time in krav maga. However, none of this did me any good against mildy trained sport fighters. I spent a long time just getting taken apart by them, I couldnt deal with their stirkes, I couldn't deal with their clinch, I couldnt deal with the takedowns, I couldn't deal with them on the ground. Hell I wasn't even in a good position to eye gouge. I had never been choked the way they were choking me, I had never been hit hard like they were hitting me. I never experianced trying to block a punch only to have my own hand punch me in the face. I had never been picked up 4 feet off the ground while trying to stop a takedown with elbows and slamed so hard I had to go home and lay down.

Now its different. When a guy comes in, I see the old me. I see a guy who is not prepared for what he is about to get into. I see them go though the same trials I had to deal with, and I see a lot of them make excuses as to why their training wasn't enough. I've had guys tell me they could of broken my fingers to escape, or eye gouged me, or grion striked me, etc. Except for when I tell them to give it a try, it never seems to work. Because I am used to maintaining control over people who are trying their best to hurt me. Their fumbling and spazzing out really doesn't bother me anymore, their pressure point's, knuckles on the ribs, etc dont bother me. Right now I have someone's thumb print bruised into my arm from fridays training. It didn't stop him from getting choked out.

The best part is none of these techniques are new, none of them are missing from traditional arts. In japanese juijitsu, bjj, and judo you will find the same hip toss, the same armbar, the same triangle choke, and the same wrist lock. The difference is the experaince in learning how to use these things against someone who isn't letting you use them. Sure you can learn how to use them without this type of training, but this kind of training is more efficent, and has a higher percentage chance of producing people who can use the techniques. If I go into a traditional martial arts school I would expect to find a few black belts that can give me a run for my money in sparing. If I go into a few mma gyms I expect to find a lot of people (at least more than 3/4ths of the people there) that can give me a run for my money. The reaons are simple. Most of them will be in better physical shape though harder training. Most of them will have learned different ways and methods for using the technqiues taught though resistant sparing, and most of them will be used to the level of resistance I am apply and thus keep their cardio under control and their adrenaline under control.

My thoughs on this are simple. If I can't handle a random amature mma guy in the ring, I can't expect to handle people in the street where there are more dangerous variables.
Well, good for you. Now, let me ask you something: Who came up with MMA? Who founded the straight blast gym? It didn't come from nowhere. Can we agree that it represents an individual's thought processes?

Well, the same is true of every other martial art in the world. Just as the SBG is not just about different techniques but a certain approahc, and someone who opens an affiliate of the straight blast gym is propgating that approach. If you don't do that, can you say you are? Not honestly. With me so far?

And that is what I have been talking about. When you say Aikido people can just change their training methods and not lose anything else, can they? If what training methods you can and can't use is part of what makes Aikido what it is, then changing the methods does change things. Yes, it could "destroy" it. You would still have the name "Aikido," but lose what it is that makes Aikido unique.

Now, that doesn't meant the "I-method" will destroy Aikido. However, you will recall Aikido is rather picky about issues like whether you spar, how much resistance to offer, etc. IF those points are part of what makes Aikido what it is, then if you break those rules, it may not be Aikido anymore. And this is important because teaching martial arts is about teaching the techniques and preserving and propogating the system. That's where things get hairy. So the question of whether to change training methods goes from being something "silly" to very important! Yes, there are some people who teach Aikido and closer to what you suggest. But that is response to those issues. They made their call.

You've put the traditional route behind you and that's ok. I'm not going to tell you what you're doing is wrong; at the end of the day, if you're happy with it, that's the most important thing. But the point I want to get a across is the traditional methods aren't the way they are for no good reason. It's because you're learning the thought process of the person who founded that system. If you diverge from that thought process, you are not doing that system anymore. The same is true for any approach, Aikido, Judo, SBG, whatever. You can teach joint locks and throws any way you want. You want to teach Aikido, there are more considerations. They're there like an elephant in your living room. You can try and ignore it but they're still there. I don't see how it could be otherwise.
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Old 07-16-2006, 12:37 PM   #216
DonMagee
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I just wanted to correct you on one thing.

I said "Sport fighting can reason that they are actually using their technqiues against a person trying to do the same." Meaning sparing using your techniques against a person trying to use their techniques.

Other than that I was trying to respond to the ideas posed. You said "Also you have to remember that "on the Street," the other person won't know what you know and you won't know what he knows. So it's unlilely he'll know how to counter you. Furthermore, trained martial artists are rare in our culture.", and I showed you how I feel that is false. I know more tough guys who used to be wreslters then tough guys who didn't used to be wrestlers. It just so happens that tough guys are the ones usually starting trouble, not the computer nerd.

You are right on the rest, it is simply individual ideas on how to train. But that doesn't mean we should not argue about it. It's all the more reason to share our ideas, examples, history, and argue about it. Its not about SBG being right and aikido being wrong, or judo being right and japanese jiujitsu being wrong. Its about finding the correct path with all the applicable information and ideas. I'm not going to train kata (well except maybe when i'm too old to compete in judo), your not going to get in a ring anytime soon (unless I've miss-read you). But that doesn't mean each of us can't learn something from each other and apply it to our training. I've learned a lot from aikidoka. My time in aikido opened my eyes to a lot of things and had big impact in how I did and did not want to train. Like I said, its not about aikido, it's about arguing the merrits and flaws of training methods. However it seems a few posters want to turn this into a what is more effective fighting style argument, I'm just trying to shape it into more effective training method argument.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:32 PM   #217
Jorx
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Kevin and Don I'm so with ya in this
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:29 PM   #218
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I just wanted to correct you on one thing.

I said "Sport fighting can reason that they are actually using their technqiues against a person trying to do the same." Meaning sparing using your techniques against a person trying to use their techniques.
Ok; hair mended.

Quote:
Other than that I was trying to respond to the ideas posed. You said "Also you have to remember that "on the Street," the other person won't know what you know and you won't know what he knows. So it's unlilely he'll know how to counter you. Furthermore, trained martial artists are rare in our culture.", and I showed you how I feel that is false. I know more tough guys who used to be wreslters then tough guys who didn't used to be wrestlers. It just so happens that tough guys are the ones usually starting trouble, not the computer nerd.
Reasonable.

Quote:
You are right on the rest, it is simply individual ideas on how to train. But that doesn't mean we should not argue about it. It's all the more reason to share our ideas, examples, history, and argue about it. Its not about SBG being right and aikido being wrong, or judo being right and japanese jiujitsu being wrong. Its about finding the correct path with all the applicable information and ideas. I'm not going to train kata (well except maybe when i'm too old to compete in judo), your not going to get in a ring anytime soon (unless I've miss-read you). But that doesn't mean each of us can't learn something from each other and apply it to our training. I've learned a lot from aikidoka. My time in aikido opened my eyes to a lot of things and had big impact in how I did and did not want to train. Like I said, its not about aikido, it's about arguing the merrits and flaws of training methods. However it seems a few posters want to turn this into a what is more effective fighting style argument, I'm just trying to shape it into more effective training method argument.
Well, are the two issues really that easy to separate? You want to ask question, there's one. I wouldn't have raised the points I've raised if I didn't think they were important.

As far as an objective and dispassionate view of training methods goes, that's a big project. And relying on personal testimonials is probably not the most scientific way of discussing it. What are the methods meant to achieve? The words "pop out" sruface a lot with reference to Aikido techniques. Is this the result of all the repitition? Hmm, then maybe the priority is less an intellectual understanding and more just having it ingrained in you? That's what that says to me. Same about the methods you like. It's not enough to say "Well, they work ..... " You have to get into the nitty gritty of it. So before making value judgments about which is "better," you have to know what they're doing.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:49 PM   #219
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Hey, Don,

For more data points, note the started of this thread. #2 under "things I learned that day" indicates something in Aikido's training methodology worked. Just food for thought.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:23 PM   #220
DonMagee
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Re: Brawling with a friend

If I'm reading this right he had 3 weeks of training. It sounds to me that he kept his distance, and kept his hands up. All very good things. I'm not sure if you can attribute 3 weeks of training to any conceptual skill gain. I'd love to belive his aikido training helped him, and had it been months of years I would agree. I'd say this was just blind instinct helping keep him safe. It sounds like he brawled (which is not really aikido) and besides some banged up hands, made it out safe. Thats a good thing. I'm glad he's ok. But I dont think 3 weeks of aikido training (or any other training for that matter) played a part in that situation.

If soemone said they got in a fight after 2 weeks of boxing training and they stuck their hands up and the guy couldn't hit them, however they couldn't seem to figure out how to fight back, and just kept their distance with their hands in front of their face, I would not attribute boxing to saving the. I'd call it common sense.

I'm sure in his case he would attribute it to his 3 weeks of training rather then blind luck or instinct. But with just 3 weeks of training, and without watching what went down, I simply can't. It sounds like he moved in, kept punching (he says he hit him 12 or 13 times) to keep him defensive with the guy wildy swung back. I've fought with guys on the defensive like that, tipically they dont hit you because their not aiming.

Now if we are to go with the assumption his training taught him proper distance and movement, we also have to point out his training did not teach him the proper way to use any of his 'offensive' techniques as he couldn't end the attack, all he could do was press and rain down punches.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:31 PM   #221
DonMagee
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
So before making value judgments about which is "better," you have to know what they're doing.
I think it is also important to explore why you are doing what you are doing, what benfits you think you are getting, and what actually improvements you are getting. Its simple if you set objective goals. If I say I want to be more effective in the ring, its a easy objective to test. If I say I want to move more fluidly in 3 man randori, again this is an easy objective to test. Where it gets complicated is in saying things like "I want to have more ki", or "I want to win a street fight". These are ill defined terms.

I'm lucky enough to have trained in numerous different methods. I've set objective goals for all my training and found the best way to reach those goals. Number one goal for me has always been the ability to use my abilities on a fully resistant skilled opponent while faced with a high stress load. Sparing or Competition is the only way (short of getting in a fight at a bar) to test this. Having tried traditional methods and failing to reach my goal, I found other methods which allowed me to reach this goal. If your goal was reaching a higher spirital path, I'd suggest going to church more and sparing less (providing your religion has a church). If your goal was better fitness I'd suggest running on a treadmill and watching your diet.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-16-2006, 10:09 PM   #222
statisticool
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
If your goal was reaching a higher spirital path, I'd suggest going to church more and sparing less (providing your religion has a church). If your goal was better fitness I'd suggest running on a treadmill and watching your diet.
If someone wants all the above (and more) from the same source, they can practice aikido.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:05 PM   #223
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
If someone wants all the above (and more) from the same source, they can practice aikido.
There is something to be said for one stop shopping.
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:16 PM   #224
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I'd love to belive his aikido training helped him, and had it been months of years I would agree. I'd say this was just blind instinct helping keep him safe...If soemone said they got in a fight after 2 weeks of boxing training and they stuck their hands up and the guy couldn't hit them, however they couldn't seem to figure out how to fight back, and just kept their distance with their hands in front of their face, I would not attribute boxing to saving the. I'd call it common sense.
Hypothetically, I think you could attribute even one class to helping a situation like this. I don't think any of us can be sure enough to say one way or the other, but I think it's quite possible. "Common sense" is one of those ill-defined things you mentioned. If you're taught to keep your hands up and on your center-line or simply to relax and not panic, and you do that because you were told in training, then training played a role. The more you train, the more it plays a role, but even that first day can play a role.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:18 PM   #225
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I think it is also important to explore why you are doing what you are doing, what benfits you think you are getting, and what actually improvements you are getting. Its simple if you set objective goals. If I say I want to be more effective in the ring, its a easy objective to test. If I say I want to move more fluidly in 3 man randori, again this is an easy objective to test. Where it gets complicated is in saying things like "I want to have more ki", or "I want to win a street fight". These are ill defined terms.

I'm lucky enough to have trained in numerous different methods. I've set objective goals for all my training and found the best way to reach those goals. Number one goal for me has always been the ability to use my abilities on a fully resistant skilled opponent while faced with a high stress load. Sparing or Competition is the only way (short of getting in a fight at a bar) to test this. Having tried traditional methods and failing to reach my goal, I found other methods which allowed me to reach this goal ....
Well, to each his own. For me, I find martial arts serendipitous: Whatever reasons I had for starting a new art (or in the case of Aikido, returning to one I'd done before), I always get something different out of it. Heck, I first signed up for karate to stop my college roommate from badgering me to take karate! He lasted three weeks, and I am still plugging away after 21 years. Go figure.

On top of that is the Filipino concept of "Play to learn," meaning you actually learn quicker if you put less pressure on yourself and have fun doing it. That's why you see references to "silat players;" it's not that they don't take their arts seriouly, they just learn better if the pressure is off.

So again, it all depends on what works for you.

Quote:
If your goal was reaching a higher spirital path, I'd suggest going to church more and sparing less (providing your religion has a church) ....
You DO have your flame proof undies on, right? Just checking. <runs for cover>
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