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Old 07-08-2006, 04:30 PM   #126
mickeygelum
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Oh..I almost forgot,

"Do wa diddy, diddy dum, diddy do-ryu"...Master Manfred Mann
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Old 07-08-2006, 04:36 PM   #127
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
My point was, how can you blame Tomiki for doing essentially the same thing that Ueshiba did?

Best,

Chris
Well, let's look at what they did: When they had diverged from what their teachers were doing, they gave their approaches distinctive identies. I didn't know about the such-and-such-ryu naming convention. But it seems to back up what I have been saying all along: If you pass a point where what you're doing isn't Aikido anymore, when it lacks that which makes Aikido what it is (whatever it is), you shouldn't call it that.

Did O Sensei deliberately disobey Takeda? That I don't know. There's a paragraph about how he "distanced himself from" Takeda and "substantially modified" the techniques he'd learned in one of the books I have. I don't know the particulars of Tomiki's split from O Sensei -- who said what to whom when and why. But I believe that if you're a student in someone's martial art school, and your teacher tells you "don't do xyz" and you do it anyway, you're in the wrong; you either change your ways or get out. Tomiki and O Sensei both seem to have taken the "get out" option. Again, I don't know the details. But it doesn't seem to be divergent from what I've been saying.

My read of some of the posts here is that some people seem to be saying Aikido has to change because Aikido has to change. But that doesn't really give a valid reason for changing things, does it? Just advocates change for it's own sake. What's the point of that? I could make a change in my life: I could go from being a tea totler to putting away several glasses of vodka a day (my dad put away a 2 liter bottle of the stuff every day for four or five years). Yes, I've made a change. But is it a good change? Well .... no. It's not. It would be for the worse in so many ways I can't count.

If the way Aikido does things is the best way for what it is trying to teach you, why make a change that could potentially interfere with that? "Because we have to change!" Why do we have to change? A change that serve's the art's goals seems worth doing; a change that is done just for the heck of it seems pointless.
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Old 07-08-2006, 04:52 PM   #128
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Michael Gallagher wrote:
"But does any of this mean it's ok to do something you've been explcitly told not to do?"

Quote:
Michael wrote:
I don't know the particulars of Tomiki's split from O Sensei -- who said what to whom when and why. But I believe that if you're a student in someone's martial art school, and your teacher tells you "don't do xyz" and you do it anyway, you're in the wrong; you either change your ways or get out....... Again, I don't know the details.
That is a big stretch from, "not knowing the details" and, " he was explicitly told not to do."
You lose credibility when you change the information that your argument is based on.
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Old 07-08-2006, 04:59 PM   #129
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Mr Gallagher,
I have student just like you, carries a copy of "The Art of Peace" every where he goes...incessantly preaches about what OSensei meant about this quip and that quote...he hardly ever comes to class and sits on the internet bantering about things he never experienced or bore witness to....do you have any ambition to train, or do you just enjoy argueing with folks that do actually train...

That would sting .... if you knew anything about me. You don't.

For one thing, I don't have a copy of The Art of Peace. I've seen it in book stores but I never bought one so far. I do hav a number of Aikido books, but I don't take them wherever I go. They stay at home, although I refer back to them sometimes.

It is true that I only go to Aikido class only once a week, but I asked my sensei about that when I met him and he said it was ok. One of the reasons I go once a week is because I am doing a total of five martial arts right now: Shito-Ryu karate (although that is on hiatus for the summer), Aikido, LaCoste Inosanto Kali, Pentjak Silat Serak, and most recently Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD. (Another reason I go once a week is because, if only because you get up 200 times in a class, Aikido is the hardest thing I do right now and I don't want to overtrain.) So I am pretty busy. And in the 21 years since I started doing martial arts, I've also been exposed Shotokan and TKD, Wing Chun, Seidokan Aikido, Western boxing, and European fencing. Every morning, I make a point of doing some drills from karate, Aikido, Serak, and Jun Fan. So maybe I don't wrack up the most Aikido time in the world, but I would say I have "ambition to train."

Yes, there are a lot of things that I have not seen, that I have only read about in books. But I do have my opinions and I will voice them. Hopefully that won't get me booted from my dojo. If they do ..... I've promised myself that if my second foray into Aikido (this one) ends badly, I will never set foot in another dojo for as long as I live. That's not a threat, just following a rule that if a relationship (in this case with a martial art) causes you pain, get out of it. I hope that doesn't happen. I like my teacher, I like going to the dojo I'm in, and I like the way I feel after an Aikido practice. 25 years from now, I'd rather look back on 25 years of doing Aikido. But what will be will be. I'd be heartbroken if that happened but I would live with it.

Most of my views were influenced by my Kali teacher, who also teaches Serak with the permission of Maha Guru Victor de Thouars. But I feel certain ideas and attitudes are common to all martial arts; they may be expressed differently, but they are there. How a Thai Boxer shows respect to his teacher when the teacher is talking will be different then what Aikido students do, but the intent is the same.

Thank you for the invite to the tournament, but I must respectfully decline. I'm planning on going to another seminar a week earlier, and I don't like to sandwich two big trips into one month if I can help, mainly because I have inherited my late mother's disquiet with boarding the dog too many times. If she was still alive, it wouldn't be a problem, because she would stay home and I would take my trips as I have many times before. But now, every time I go away, my house stands empty and my dog ends up in a kennel. I don't like to do that to her too often, poor dog!

So now you know something about me. I will be happy to debate you as long as debate me, not who you think I am. Ok?
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Old 07-08-2006, 05:09 PM   #130
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
"But does any of this mean it's ok to do something you've been explcitly told not to do?"



That is a big stretch from, "not knowing the details" and, " he was explicitly told not to do."
You lose credibility when you change the information that your argument is based on.
"Tomiki Aikido and Yoseikan Budo Kenji Tomiki (1900-1979), one of Morihei's first students, was also a high ranking Judo instructor, and he attempted to combine aikido and Judo (against the express wishes of Morihei) ..... the inclusion of contests based on Judo style competitions into Aikido was widely criticized."
--Stevens, John, The Shambhala Guide to Aikido. p. 114.

I admit that is all I know about Tomiki. I admit that is an oversimplification and I don't have the details. But "against the express wishes of Morihei" does imply that Tomiki was told not to do something and he did it anyway. If I've "lost credibility" from working from that source, oh, well. But I know what I believe and why. You don't agree with me. Again, oh, well.
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Old 07-08-2006, 05:29 PM   #131
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
"Tomiki Aikido and Yoseikan Budo Kenji Tomiki (1900-1979), one of Morihei's first students, was also a high ranking Judo instructor, and he attempted to combine aikido and Judo (against the express wishes of Morihei) ..... the inclusion of contests based on Judo style competitions into Aikido was widely criticized."
--Stevens, John, The Shambhala Guide to Aikido. p. 114.

I admit that is all I know about Tomiki. I admit that is an oversimplification and I don't have the details. But "against the express wishes of Morihei" does imply that Tomiki was told not to do something and he did it anyway. If I've "lost credibility" from working from that source, oh, well. But I know what I believe and why. You don't agree with me. Again, oh, well.
""against the express wishes of Morihei" does not imply he was told not to do it. It implies that Tomiki Sensei knew that O'Sensei did not agree with him. Using one line out of one book about O'Sensei is a major stretch of the imagination. If this part of your argument's foundation is not credible, then the other parts are questionable too.
I have not practiced the other arts that you have mention. but I have five years and some months practice in Aikido. I do not trust what you have to say about these other arts because the shaky credibility you have demonstrated with your argument about Aikido.
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Old 07-08-2006, 05:51 PM   #132
milesc
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
If the way Aikido does things is the best way for what it is trying to teach you, why make a change that could potentially interfere with that?
That's a really big IF and that's actually the point of my previous thread on newbies training/teaching techniques. It is also why I believe it is necessary to understand the goals and intentions of training and teaching methods for martial arts so that you can better tailor the delivery method to the goals of the art.
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:15 PM   #133
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Miles Calunod wrote:
It is also why I believe it is necessary to understand the goals and intentions of training and teaching methods for martial arts so that you can better tailor the delivery method to the goals of the art.
And who is better to understand the goals and intentions of training and teaching methods as related to Aikido, someone with ten or more years practice and rank to teach or a newbie or someone who dapples in Aikido?
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:38 PM   #134
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
And who is better to understand the goals and intentions of training and teaching methods as related to Aikido, someone with ten or more years practice and rank to teach or a newbie or someone who dapples in Aikido?
..... said the guy who's only been at it for five!
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:48 PM   #135
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
""against the express wishes of Morihei" does not imply he was told not to do it. It implies that Tomiki Sensei knew that O'Sensei did not agree with him ....
Goes either way, really.

Quote:
Using one line out of one book about O'Sensei is a major stretch of the imagination ....
Can you tell us, then, what really happened?

Quote:
If this part of your argument's foundation is not credible, then the other parts are questionable too.
Oh, dear.

Quote:
I have not practiced the other arts that you have mention. but I have five years and some months practice in Aikido. I do not trust what you have to say about these other arts because the shaky credibility you have demonstrated with your argument about Aikido.
Well, you are more than welcome to look into them yourself. Karate schools are realtively easy to find, although I do not know what kind of presence shito-ryu has in Ohio. For Jun Fan, Kali, and Serak, here are a couple of helpful web sites:

http://www.inosanto.com

http://www.serak.com

Good luck finding schools near you!
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:51 PM   #136
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
..... said the guy who's only been at it for five!
......said the guy who has been dappling at it for less than three.
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:51 PM   #137
statisticool
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Posted by Justin 04-12-2006,
"I'm going to start taking aikido classes next month, and am excited. "

Posted by Justin 05-01-2006,
" I'll actually be starting towards the end of June, just outside of Alexandria, VA."

Hello Justin,
Have you actually started Aikido practice yet (not hypothetically)? How is it going? I am glad you are excited about Aikido and hope that when you gain some experience you will be able to speak from your experience.
Remember," all the theory in the world is NOTHING like the Real Thing."

Good Luck
Yes, and thank you. And I do have experience, just not in aikido yet.

If you'd like more details, please contact me by email.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:57 PM   #138
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
......said the guy who has been dappling at it for less than three.
Once/week ="dappling"? New one on me. Wonder how many other "dapplers" there are out there? Probably a lot!
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Old 07-08-2006, 07:05 PM   #139
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Can you tell us, then, what really happened?
No, and I won't make something up like you did.
Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Well, you are more than welcome to look into them yourself.
No thank you, I would rather focus on one art at a time.
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Old 07-08-2006, 07:12 PM   #140
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Once/week ="dappling"? New one on me. Wonder how many other "dapplers" there are out there? Probably a lot!
Most of those who have to practice once a week or seminars when they can do so because of circumstances like family obligations, work, no dojo close by, not because they chose to indulge themselves in five martial arts.
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Old 07-08-2006, 07:26 PM   #141
deepsoup
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
"Tomiki Aikido and Yoseikan Budo Kenji Tomiki (1900-1979), one of Morihei's first students, was also a high ranking Judo instructor, and he attempted to combine aikido and Judo (against the express wishes of Morihei) ..... <snip>
--Stevens, John, The Shambhala Guide to Aikido. p. 114
There's already plenty of discussion about the "against the express wishes" part. I'd like to address the "tried to combine aikido and judo" part. As far as I'm aware he never did any such thing. Shodokan aikido certainly doesn't incorporate any judo techniques at all. Maybe there's some confusion with Yoseikan Aiki-budo going on here?

Prof. Tomiki regarded Judo and Aikido as quite separate, and complementary, developments on koryu jujutsu. In a nutshell, koryu jujutsu consists of atemi waza, kansetsu waza, katame waza and nage waza. Aikido techniques all come from the first two categories, and judo techniques from the second. (With a very small overlap.)

Here's an essay that he wrote about it:
http://www.tomiki.org/article_tomiki_jujutsu.html

Sean
x
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Old 07-08-2006, 07:27 PM   #142
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
No, and I won't make something up like you did.
Where could I find out who said what to whom?

Quote:

No thank you, I would rather focus on one art at a time.
Well, the information is out there when you are ready. I know there are Inosanto affiliates in Ohio; I do not know whether they are close to you. But I do hope that you can find one close to you.
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Old 07-08-2006, 07:29 PM   #143
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
There's already plenty of discussion about the "against the express wishes" part. I'd like to address the "tried to combine aikido and judo" part. As far as I'm aware he never did any such thing .....
Yell at John Stevens, not me. (Although he did write something about Ninjutusu that didn't go over well with the Togakure-ryu people. I still enjoy his books, though.)
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Old 07-08-2006, 07:31 PM   #144
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Brawling with a friend

If we can trust in what Mr Goldsbury said about the subject...

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=15
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=16

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Old 07-08-2006, 07:38 PM   #145
CNYMike
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Most of those who have to practice once a week or seminars when they can do so because of circumstances like family obligations, work, no dojo close by, not because they chose to indulge themselves in five martial arts.
Well, you know someone now, althouogh I'm also in the "no dojo close by" category -- the dojo I go to is 25 miles away. And there's a schedule conflict between Aikido, Serak, and Karate. The only way I could start Jun Fan is because it's Tuesdays and Thursdays, although I only do that one day a week, too.

I figure everyone who does Aikido is motivated by affection for it -- it gets in your blood and that's it -- regardless of whether one does just Aikido or seven other arts besides (and there was someone in the dojo who did eight arts, including Aikido). If you want to call the multi-art people "dapplers," go right ahead, but that strikes me as a little unfair.
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Old 07-09-2006, 12:25 AM   #146
DonMagee
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:

My read of some of the posts here is that some people seem to be saying Aikido has to change because Aikido has to change. But that doesn't really give a valid reason for changing things, does it?
I thought my reason was well displayed and thought out. My reason is that it would be in the best interests of any teacher to develop or refine their teaching skills to teach the most people consistently as possible and develop skills as quickly as possible. If a teaching method shows proven ability to work more effectively then other teaching methods they I think it is the responsibility of the teachers to explore, adapt, and use this method. Otherwise they are not responsible teachers.

On to the comment of me saying Question everything. Yes, Please, question everything any teacher says to you. It is important to question everything because it allows you to understand faster and to develop your own opinions and insights into your art.

A martial art is not a system, it is not a bunch of techniques with a philosophy stuck on top. It is a internalized concept of movement for the purpose of living life. Everyone has their own aikido, everyone has their own bjj, everyone has their own jkd. If you never question why, you will never develop your own opinion and be a much much weaker martial artist.

Questioning has a second effect. It keeps things honest. Many high ranking teachers lose sight of what they are doing. They get used to being in control and become full of themselves. If you never question anything you just might find yourself getting a finger pointed at you from 15 feet away and falling to the ground. You might find yourself doing a technique the teacher made up that would never work in real life, but works only because you take that fall. You might develop bad habits that would get you killed in a real attack. You might spend all your time working on complex techniques that are really unsuited for your body type (I don't think 7 foot tall people should work on O'Goshi all day as most people are going to be shorter than they are).

If your teacher gets offend when you question a technique, this shows in my opinion a deeper issue with a teacher. The teacher must not have confidence in his art, or doesn't understand how to explain his art. He obviously has a huge ego and looks at himself as above his students. This all leads to more bullshido, to adding more 'tradition' to prevent the exposure of weakness in the teacher. To bad techniques that never get explored because its disrespectful to ask. And it does a disservice to people who are there to seriously learn how to defend themselves. For the record, I agree that if you don't agree with the training methods at a school, you should not spend all your time arguing with the teacher. That is disrespectful to the students and to the teacher. You should find another school with training methods you agree with. However I feel you should bring up these reasons and explain why you feel this way. When you explain, you should also give what you think is the solution and the reasons why. Maybe it will help the teacher understand more about how his students feel, maybe it will give him new ideas, and maybe he will learn and grow as a teacher. If he is stuck on tradition and blind faith then I guess he will never grow as a teacher (not significantly anyways). However, once you are in a position to teach, I think its perfectly fine to teach how you feel you should teach. If your teacher is offended, then I guess he can be offended. Sucks to be him to be upset with you having your own ideas.

If I don't believe something will work, I'll say it, and explain why I think it wont work. I wont just say "This will never work". I will say something like "How does this help keep us from ending up in a clinch?" Or "Shouldn't we worry about X happening from this position". If I get answers that are stupid or silly, I will challenge them. For example, I took a free lesson at a school that a friend of mine was looking at. During this lesson the teacher went over some things that I guess you could call trapping. I asked about how this works with someone trying to clinch and take-down, vs someone who stays away striking like they spar (they don't allow clinch or take-downs in their sparing from what I seen.). I was told simply, "You just don't let them clinch or take you down". My next question of course was "How do you do that?". This guy became frustrated and told me that I just didn't' understand enough of his system, and to shut up and train. I recommended my friend not train at his club. He was a fool in my eyes. I may not understand his system, but I understand a fight. I know what I'm going to try to do, and I know that you can't just 'not let me' clinch or 'not go to the ground'. He obviously was well aware of a weakness in his system by the fact that he got upset at me for asking a question. Rather than explore my question, or suggest we explore it later after class or in a future lesson, maybe tell me this drill or technique only deals with this small aspect of the fight and their are others for when it starts to close to the clinch, or even say that they simply do not train to deal with that and suggest cross-training, he tried to pull the old tradition, rank, and respect card and tell me I can't question him. If anyone should feel disrespected, it should be me. I'm asking questions to attempt to learn and he is telling me that basically, I'm too stupid at this point to bother explaining himself to. Even though I've been training in the martial arts for most of my life, I can't possibly have the knowledge needed to understand. I was the one disrespected and I was the one who should feel insulted. He should be happy that I'm thinking about his teachings enough to ask questions and that I'm developing my own ideas.

I have also noticed that in clubs of that nature the students always have a 'I'm awesome' vibe about them. They seem to really believe they are untouchable in some respect. They have unrealistic views about what will happen in a fight. I believe this problem only exists in places where the students have blind faith and never question anything their teacher tells them. I've seen instructors tell their students that by training this way they will be able to block every strike that comes at them. I've seen instructors tell their students not to worry about a boxer because you can just kick his knees out. These things need to be confronted and questioned. If my teacher tells me that if I punch you at 2:30 PM with my pinkie extended in your right forearm you will die, I'm going to question it. If he tells me standing in a line wiggling my big toe for 30 minutes will improve my punching skills, I'm going to question it. Why? Because it doesn't have any relation to what I know about how the human body works. I've seen a lot of things that worked only because their students were so afraid of their teacher they let it work. For example, pinching the leg to break a choke hold. If I'm choking you, you can bite me, pinch me, kiss me, whatever. I'm just going to wait for you to pass out, stand up and head stomp you for making it annoying. But the students take it to heart and do not question it. Because it is disrespectful. Even in cases where it doesn't' make sense. I've rambled on enough on this. But my point is, Question everything. Its the basis of science and its how we come to understand.

Why is it disrespectful to question a teacher about his art? And why are some martial artists so stuck up they believe no one could improve upon the methods they currently use?

I'm not saying the I-method is perfect for aikido. I'm not saying that if aikidoka stop doing kata and only spar full contact that it is better for the goals of aikido. I'm simply saying that this method is doing wonders in other places. It should be explored and commented on. I was looking for arguments for or against this training method as it relates to improving the instruction of aikido, not as it relates to offending some teacher. If it betters the art, then maybe some people need to be offended.

I'm going to leave it with this.

If tradition prevents the exploration or adoption of better training methods without reason then tradition is holding back the martial art and tradition sucks. If you say aikido is for everybody, and someone shows you a method of teaching that allows more people to gain skill more consistently and understand faster and you say tradition does not allow this, then tradition is going against one of the goals of aikido. What should trump, the goals of the art, or the tradition that is stuck with it?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-09-2006, 01:11 AM   #147
milesc
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Re: Brawling with a friend

@Don

I disagree with the your comments on throwing out culture due to it being a hinderance but aside from that, I think you have summed up my own opinions on the "revise and review" position as well.

My only major divergence from your above post would be to remember that change doesn't have to be revolutionary. It doesn't have to abolish the culture or the spirit of an art. It *can* do these things but at that point I think a teacher who does so will have the intent of putting a new name and face to that revised art. (Off the cuff example is sambo which another poster mentioned. It uses aikido techniques but is not aikido, it is sambo.)

To perscribe that one should never review their position and realign themselves I agree is a bad practice and can only lead to stagnation and/or misdirection.

Good post.
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Old 07-09-2006, 01:15 AM   #148
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Don Magee Wrote:

Quote:
f tradition prevents the exploration or adoption of better training methods without reason then tradition is holding back the martial art and tradition sucks.
Good post Don, I especially like your comment above.

Thinking is important and something we must do. I'd say most of us begin our martial careers with a preconception about what martial arts is, what it will do for us, and what we will get out of our training. I'd say for the most part, most people would say after 10 years of training that there experiences and reasons shifted many times, they got lost along the way, and it was totally different than the reason they started.

We must always think, and keep in mind what our "endstate" of training is for. It may change from time to time, but we must stay focused and clear on that. If tradition and methods are in conflict with that endstate, then we must adapt our training, find a new home, or do something else until we find that path again.
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Old 07-09-2006, 04:56 AM   #149
creinig
Dojo: Yoshinkan Würzburg
Location: Würzburg (de)
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Aikido has much less ground to cover; tryint to break it into peices would be flatly ridiculous. I mean, could you spend twenty mintues just studying how to raise and lower your tegatana?
I'm not sure if I've ever done that for 20 minutes, but some of our kihon dosa sessions have certainly come close. But a better example would maybe be something we've started ~ half a year ago: For one hour before each official training, we do "entries". Receiving the attack, staying stable, trying to get the initial kuzushi. Nothing more. And uke does her best to make that a challenge

Great training. Kind of the opposite of sparring -- it's like polishing the technique (or it's most important part) to telescope-level clarity, like looking at it through a progressively more powerful microscope. Much resistance as well, just at a more sublime level I'd say. I attribute most of my progress recently to that.
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Old 07-09-2006, 10:25 AM   #150
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
..... On to the comment of me saying Question everything. Yes, Please, question everything any teacher says to you. It is important to question everything because it allows you to understand faster and to develop your own opinions and insights into your art .....
I'd prefer to keep my questions more psoitive: What am I getting out of this? Guro Dan Inosanto is famous for saying that every martial art has something to offer. I think my time is better spent tryint to learn what Aikido's "something" is rather than dwell on what is not.

Taking a more skeptical approach can carry the risk that you set it up to fail. It's like asking, "How does doing martial art save me if someone in the room sets off an atomic bomb?" It doesn't. Nothing does. Does that mean you should write off martial arts? No. The question is, what does it give you?

If you want to learn scuba diving, do you take a course in sky diving and complain they never got in the water? No, you take the course in scuba diving. It's not that sky diving can't be fun, but if you don't like it or are afriad of heights, don't do it. If you want to learn BJJ, do you take a course in Thai Boxing and complain they don't role around on the ground? No. So if you go to Aikido and don't like how they do things, why not simply leave and go someplace else as opposed to saying "You should do it this way" or "you should consider this"? They do things they way they want to do them; how do you know it doesn't get good results?

Quote:
.... For the record, I agree that if you don't agree with the training methods at a school, you should not spend all your time arguing with the teacher. That is disrespectful to the students and to the teacher ..... Why is it disrespectful to question a teacher about his art? And why are some martial artists so stuck up they believe no one could improve upon the methods they currently use?
Sounds like you already know.

Quote:
..... If tradition prevents the exploration or adoption of better training methods without reason then tradition is holding back the martial art and tradition sucks. If you say aikido is for everybody, and someone shows you a method of teaching that allows more people to gain skill more consistently and understand faster and you say tradition does not allow this, then tradition is going against one of the goals of aikido. What should trump, the goals of the art, or the tradition that is stuck with it?
If the methodology is part of your tradition, and preserving the art, not just teaching a bunch of techniques, is important to you, then yes, you lose something if you change methods. You could gain one thing, but lose something else.
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