Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-03-2006, 08:25 AM   #51
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
It actually kind of gets us closer in a weird way. It's a real different relationship after you've boxed with a guy or had some sort of physical match against them.
I know just what you mean here jeff. Me and my dad used to do kickboxing/MMA together, its supprising how much closer it can bring you. once you have beat the hell out of each other (in a controled way) arguing just seems kinda pointless

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 11:02 AM   #52
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
I was reading this thread a while back and I was thinking about these quotes.





To me... much of this stuff is like when I play Chess. I play Chess with people who are my friends - sometimes they beat me, and sometimes I beat them. I'm always learning new moves and setups to watch out for and new things to try. It's always just for fun and it doesn't change our relationship, because they are always getting better too. The same goes for the people I "fight" with. I get popped every now and then and I pop every now and then. I don't hold it against someone else when they get a good shot off or a good takedown, and they don't hold it against me either. It actually kind of gets us closer in a weird way. It's a real different relationship after you've boxed with a guy or had some sort of physical match against them. In the places I work out... it doesn't hurt to fight, as long as you are fighting people you respect and who respect you and as long as you are fighting to improve yourself, not to "beat" the other guy.

Anyway, I have to kind of disagree with those quotes (from my perspective). Fighting (or brawling) can be a lot like chess... depending on how you approach it and who you are interacting with.

Just my two cents and I can certainly see what you mean in those quotes, I just haven't experienced that in my own life.

Thanks!

Jeff D.

I understand what you mean. Sparing/competing in bjj, judo, mma for me is no different then playing basketball, football, or baseball. I have no ill feelings and I dont feel superior to those I beat. I dont even feel its violent. I feel violence needs intent. I never intend to harm, I only intend to win.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 11:55 AM   #53
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Speaking of martial arts, fighting, and chess...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...50760833041053

You can watch the whole thing, or you can skip ahead to 4:30 into the clip where martial arts, fighting, and chess are brought together.

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 07:18 PM   #54
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Speaking of martial arts, fighting, and chess...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...50760833041053

You can watch the whole thing, or you can skip ahead to 4:30 into the clip where martial arts, fighting, and chess are brought together.
I suppose I'd be one of those "quizzical look" folks he's talking about. When they were practicig the "lock flows" the guys arm was completely relaxed. I've never seen anyone train quite like that. Close, maybe, but never like that. Was it an exagerated example maybe? Same thing with the "sparring."
As for the chess analogy: I think the explanation given to me by Peter about Shodokan fits well. They take basic movements, and build on them step by step. These are designed to teach form, from there the varying degrees of resistance are applied. The only difference between this style and my primary style back in the states is that Shodokan is more structured (you know more of what you'll be practicing and in which sequence you'll be practicing it).
I've played a lot of chess, and I completely agree that you get better by playing people who mix it up. However, the manner in which Matt was "practicing" his openings is a valid method for learning an opening, though he rather simplified it. You take fundemental principles, such as the classical theory of chess where you control the center by occupying it with pieces (as was Matt's opening), and you move in that way. From there, you build on it by practicing via "free-form" (add some resistance). A chess coach will often move through a basic opening like Matt did by saying, "ok play Ruy Lopez, Marshal counter-gambit", but then at random points, ask "what if" questions. You can only do this after memorizing the movements of the opening. Also, to give some perspective, the three moves Matt made would be akin to taking one or two steps in a technique, if that much. There is no real advantage issue yet, unlike when we practice some technique which ends with a dinstinct advantage issue. It would be like facing off with someone in slightly different stances: there's no real contact made yet. Even forgetting about that, there are two things that are going on: the superficial and the dynamic. In my opinion, the superficial would be simply seeing two people cooperatively repeat the same movements over and over again. The dynamic is what those two people are sensing about the positions they get themselves into. In chess, you're getting a sense of the situation by thinking about the dynamic between the various pieces' movements. In budo you're feeling which ways you're moving and in which ways you feel strong or weak. It does require an engagement, and maybe Matt isn't speaking to those who do this already, but simply practicing forms doesn't equal "dead pattern"...in my neophytes perspective anyway. I can practice alone and still learn something about how to move, how to maintain stronger balance, how to move with my whole body. These are obviously just parts of the whole study of budo, but they're valid lessons aren't they? I know several people who, growing up, LOVED to go out and get in fights. Some of these people swing wide telegraphing punches. They learned in a purely "alive" manner, and yet displayed some poor dynamics. Might this not be an example of how there's more to the situation than seems to meet the eye?
Granted, I may be over-thinking the simple message Matt is sending us, and if that's the case, please disregard this as a critique of it, and tell me instead, if anyone is so inclined, what you think of my distinction between the superficial and dynamic events going on in patterned training.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 08:43 PM   #55
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

I think Matt Thornton's message is rather simple and a lot of people read into it too much. These are the major points I like to touch on
1) If you can't learn a technique in a few minutes, its probably too complicated for you to actually use right now.
2) Drill the motions in a few minutes and move though levels of resistance until you are sparing.
3) If you are intent in learning how to fight, you are going to have to actually get as close to fighting as possible (Lots of sparing). Its the only way to actually learn what you can and can't do. I wish there was a better way, but there isn't. Everything else is only theory. (Sparing could also be concidered theory, but its the best we got without going out and picking a fight).

His message is aimed at people who just do forms all day and claim it makes them great fighters.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2006, 09:08 PM   #56
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I think Matt Thornton's message is rather simple and a lot of people read into it too much. These are the major points I like to touch on
1) If you can't learn a technique in a few minutes, its probably too complicated for you to actually use right now.
2) Drill the motions in a few minutes and move though levels of resistance until you are sparing.
3) If you are intent in learning how to fight, you are going to have to actually get as close to fighting as possible (Lots of sparing). Its the only way to actually learn what you can and can't do. I wish there was a better way, but there isn't. Everything else is only theory. (Sparing could also be concidered theory, but its the best we got without going out and picking a fight).
His message is aimed at people who just do forms all day and claim it makes them great fighters.
I'm sure I did read too much into it. I do think too much
Still, I don't know many Aikidoka who claim to be "great" fighters...though, better off, certainly.
Take care.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 06:33 PM   #57
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Yeah, Straight Blast Gym's (SBG) message is just that forms do nothing to prepare anyone for a physical conflict. If all one trains with is forms, then they are never prepared for fight. Like Don said above, the only way to get good at fighting/be preparred for a fight, is to do the closest thing possible to actually fighting. Which is to spar/roll at full speed with full resistence. Anything less and it's just hypothetical situations because there is no personal, empirical evidence as to how one would function in combat.

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 07:14 PM   #58
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
Hello everyone,

what I am probably about to type is not new to many veterans out there, but hopefully will clear up some issues for beginners like me.

in the 10 months i've been training, there has been one resounding positive effect: confidence. i am simply more confident in myself.

so my best friend and I got together this weekend. mind you, i've known this guy forever, the last thing he does is insult me, or want to hurt me, but we always have "friendly" fights.

this time, we decided to turn it up a notch. i figured we could, because we trust each other, the same way an uke trusts his tori.

we cleared the living room and began to "fight." now here is what i learned about Aikido, and hopefully i will get some advice from the older students:

1) I attacked first. Basically, as soon as I did that, I lost the fight. Aikido really is a non-violent martial art. even though i knew some beginner techniques, i could not employ them, because i didn't allow my friend to attack me. therefore, i had no 'ki' to work with.

2) You have to move fast in Aikido for it to be effective. if it's not instinctual, it will not work. he *did* grab my wrists a few times, and as soon as i "connected" with him, he simply let go, and the "ki" was lost.

3) In spite of all this, i still had a chance to take him down. i had him set up for a perfect sankyo, and couldn't do it correctly.

summary: sometimes people think Aikido doesn't work. in this case, it didn't at all. but it wasn't O' Sensei's fault.

if i waited for my friend to attack first, I might've had a chance. i always acted too hastily and tried to take him down. this goes against everything Aikido teaches you.

second, if you don't practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, you will never employ the technique correctly. they require a swift, instinctual motion, with no delay or hesitation. hesitate for a second, and you have lost the technique. if you rest on your laurels, you don't stand a chance.

looking back on what i just typed, this sounds like a lot of common sense. however, i've seen a lot of "Aikido doesn't work" threads recently, and I have to agree: if you let your oppenents play their game, it will not work at all.
Back when I started karate -- the very beginning of my martial arts journey -- I would spar with my best friend and sometimes friends of his. They would frequently confound me with things I had not seen in the dojo -- namely low kicks and fakes. I have continuied in traditional karate all this time and still never seen counters to those particular things. But I still learned to watch from them and over time, performed my own blocks. Your best bet my be to take the same approach, not say "It didn't work!" but as a learning experience, to watch for what confounds you and develop your own counters to them.

My karate sensei at the time always said three things:

1. Every move has a countermove.

2. You won't win all the time.

3. There's always someone out there who knows something you don't.

Again, your experience and mine proves him right. So there is no need to get upset over it. Just take it in stride and learn from it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 07:26 PM   #59
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
does anyone else get tired of hearing " AIKIDO IS NON-CONFRONTATIONAL" ..
Not at all, especially when I've read several Ueshibas and other highly respected aikidoka write that, and I can understand that myself when I don't meet an attack head on but try and blend with it.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 07:35 PM   #60
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Anything less and it's just hypothetical situations because there is no personal, empirical evidence as to how one would function in combat.
I have no personal empirical evidence that if I crash my car I will get injured, but I understand based on physics and experiences of others what will happen if I crash my car.

Similarly, I can understand body mechanics and look at the experiences of others who have successfully applied their martial arts in real life, even if I haven't been in a real fight, and if I don't train in an MMA gym.

Are martial artists that practice with wooden swords really unable to *really* get it because they don't practice with live swords full contact? I don't believe so.

To play devil's advocate, one could also say that MMA folk are in "hypothetical situations" since they typically fight with dozens of rules and in a padded environment. Fighting with high levels of resistance and contact doesn't change that.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 07:42 PM   #61
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
I would like you to provide the proof where O"Sensei said this.
In The Art of Peace, translated by Stevens, p. 33, talking about aikido, has

"It can never be violent."

and

"Aikido is to teach people how not to be violent."

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 07:58 PM   #62
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Yeah, Straight Blast Gym's (SBG) message is just that forms do nothing to prepare anyone for a physical conflict. If all one trains with is forms, then they are never prepared for fight.
I agree with the latter sentence, but disagree with the first. I wouldn't say they do "nothing." It seems to me that any time someone works on coordination, they're helping themselves. Maybe I'm being too picky in which phrases I'm responding to, and I know I'm hardly a precise speaker most of the time, but I do think it's important to speak precisely...particularly when we're discussing self-defense issues.
Quote:
Like Don said above, the only way to get good at fighting/be preparred for a fight, is to do the closest thing possible to actually fighting.
In my mind, forms/kata are theory, which do serve an important part of preparation; applying them to gradually increasing levels of resistance are the testing of those theories.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 08:06 PM   #63
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Not at all, especially when I've read several Ueshibas and other highly respected aikidoka write that, and I can understand that myself when I don't meet an attack head on but try and blend with it.
I think a big part of the "Aikido is non-confrontational" discussion is a matter of semantics. To some, the concept of irimi might seem confrontational, while to others it does not.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2006, 10:59 PM   #64
Don
Dojo: aikido of charlotte
Location: Charlotte
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 112
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Well, I'll throw out a bit of a contrarian opinion here. So, if you really buy into the "aikido is non confrontational" idea, ponder this, your someplace and there is an obnoxious person bothering you. You want to just leave, but he is blocking your way but he is not yet touching you or striking you. You try talking your way out of the sitution, but it is clear that this is going to escalate into a physical situation. What do you do? If you believe aikido is non-confrontational then you would likely wait until attacked. That might be fine or not.

Aikido is not just about techniques. Aikido is also about creating openings and it is about controlling the opponents intentions.

Think about kata menuchi. Here is an example that speaks to creating openings and controlling the situation. At least in the way we practice it, uke grabs your lapel and then YOU strike to his face. Either uke doesn't block and gets clocked or they react to your strike, which is what you want them to do. You now control the situation and can (at least theoretically execute a technique). Was aikido non confrontational in this case? My answer is no. What you do after you execute the technique determines if you adhere to O'Sensei's desire to not be violent. If you trash the person, then perhaps not.

Randori and jyu waza somewhat teach unhearsed responses.

But it is the kata (and after all, the techniques are practiced as kata) teach you to internalize the movements and then later to see the openings. But it doesn't come fast. And consequently many people focus on the techniques as techniques and don't see the openings or the ways to control the opponent's intentions.

For instance, (and this is from a real example) in iriminage, what you may find from a real angry opponent is that if you try the kihon pivot around and throw will be that the opponent may pull away, or attempt to. A real opening however is to pivot in and apply a choke. At least the time I found myself in this situation, the choke stopped the confrontation immediately. But I never practiced that before I did it.

One last comment about fighting to learn to fight, yeah, perhaps to some extent, but at least with aikido, I would say don't do that until you have a lot experience. Understand the techniques, know some of the openings, understand leading the opponent. If you try "brawling with a friend" after a few months or a year or so, you will probably find that it doesn't work.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 04:04 AM   #65
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
I have no personal empirical evidence that if I crash my car I will get injured, but I understand based on physics and experiences of others what will happen if I crash my car.
And i don't have empirical evidence that if i play this as only training tool i'll became the next Schumacher.
Quote:
Are martial artists that practice with wooden swords really unable to *really* get it because they don't practice with live swords full contact? I don't believe so.
Train with a bokken and then try the tameshigiri with shinken. Tell us the results.
Quote:
To play devil's advocate, one could also say that MMA folk are in "hypothetical situations" since they typically fight with dozens of rules and in a padded environment. Fighting with high levels of resistance and contact doesn't change that.
There is "hypothetical situations" and "hypohetical situations". Training under high levels of resistance and contact is a very different "hypothetical situation" from training withouth resistence and contact.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 07-05-2006 at 04:07 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 07:05 AM   #66
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I think a big part of the "Aikido is non-confrontational" discussion is a matter of semantics. To some, the concept of irimi might seem confrontational, while to others it does not.
Very true.

In Spirit of Aikido K. Ueshiba has something like "deflating aggression", which might be closer to the spirit of the matter than total non-aggression.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 07:19 AM   #67
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
I have no personal empirical evidence that if I crash my car I will get injured, but I understand based on physics and experiences of others what will happen if I crash my car.

Similarly, I can understand body mechanics and look at the experiences of others who have successfully applied their martial arts in real life, even if I haven't been in a real fight, and if I don't train in an MMA gym.

Are martial artists that practice with wooden swords really unable to *really* get it because they don't practice with live swords full contact? I don't believe so.

To play devil's advocate, one could also say that MMA folk are in "hypothetical situations" since they typically fight with dozens of rules and in a padded environment. Fighting with high levels of resistance and contact doesn't change that.
Yes you can say, look, this guy punched this guy in the face and knocked him out. Punching works. But at the same time you are not accounting for the differences between yourself and the guy who threw that punch. Its about personal experiance. Without sparing all you know is what other people tell you to do and what other people tell you people react like. You actually have no idea what will actually happen. You tipically find out that 90% of the people out there never respond like you are told they will. People do crazy things and learning to adapt on the fly can't be learned though kata. Its a physical action that requires training.

Here is my thinking on this. I see lots of people talk about how sparing does not help you learn to use your art. I see lots of people talk about how sport fighting does not prepare you for the street. But I have never seen one person tell me how not sparing and not sport fighting helps you get better prepared.

Also, it has been my experiance that the quality of the actually martial artists vary wildly outside of the sport fighting circles. I have met many black belts in a wide varitey of arts. If I grab 10 aikido black belts and we look at their skill levels, we will find them wildly different. Some of them will be 100% unable to use any aikido against me. Some will be able to defeat me without effort. Now lets grab a sample of competition judo black belts. I would say you will find them all of similar skill. Sure they will each have their favorite throws they use and their own strategys. But I would be willing to bet the majority of them would destroy me without any effort. This is because they have actual experiance in how people react to what they are trying to do. Yes, judo competition is very restricted rules. It is nothing even close to a fight. But the active resistance allows them to adapt faster and get used to all the little things that make the technqiue work that you are never taught.

Learning though doing is accepted as the best way to learn anything except for in the realm of martial arts. Without it you are missing a vital experiance. Especially if you want to be able to use your art against a person who doesn't not want you too. I just can't comprehend how people can say sparing has so little benifit that its not worth doing. I can find no disadvantages to sparing. I can find disadvantages to not sparing.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 07:57 AM   #68
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Now lets grab a sample of competition judo black belts. I would say you will find them all of similar skill. Sure they will each have their favorite throws they use and their own strategys. But I would be willing to bet the majority of them would destroy me without any effort. This is because they have actual experiance in how people react to what they are trying to do.
I agree with the spirit of a lot of what you said in your post.

Regarding the specific paragraph above however, I didn't start training to be prepared to fight against trained martial artists in real life self defense situations. In fact, that situation is too improbable of an occurance to devote resources to it (IMO of course). If Muay Thai practicioners or Judoka start coming after people for hand to hand combat, I'll regret my choice.

I realize that some see that as an admission of training for the lowest common denomenator, but I understand it as applying fixed resources towards the most realistic common denomenator.

I'm also not really concerned with Martial art X being "better" than Martial art Y. In fact, the whole idea of winning and losing is lost on me, which is one of the reasons I chose aikido as a good fit in the first place.

Plus no one wants to see me wear speedos, so how could I do cage fights?

Last edited by statisticool : 07-05-2006 at 08:01 AM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 08:37 AM   #69
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

I train to be the best I can be. If you can handle a well trained opponent, then you can handle a untrained one. My point however is that they have a much more consistant level of skill because of the training methods they use. If a guy comes up to me wanting to train and he says he is a TKD blackbelt, I dont have any idea what to expect. He could be a pushover, or he could be a awesome kickboxer and cut though me. If a guy comes in who claims to be a BJJ purple belt. I know that he has major skills and I know the level of skill to expect from him.

This is a side effect of sparing. It boosts the level of skill of everyone involved. Lets say I have a great setup for an armbar from the guard. I learned it at a semminar and I use it with awesome success back at class. People are going to ask me how to do it. Hopefully I'm a good guy and I like my club so I show them. Other people are going to learn just by having me do it on them in sparing. Others are going to ask the coach how to defend or counter it. Within a months time that armbar isn't very great anymore. I need to learn new techniques if I want to get submissions. This cycle continues. I'm forced to learn better defenses, counters, submissions, counters to the counters, etc because if I dont I wont be able to defend myself from my partners.

At the same time, the higher skilled guys can use this teaching method to point out my flaws. When I first started I would get triangle choked left and right. One of the blue belts in the class would just triangle me over and over, I was never submitted by him except from triangle. Finally I learned how to defend against this and how not to put myself at risk of a triangle. With a sigh of releif he said "Finally, I was getting really bored of that submission", then he started working other submissions when we rolled. He noticed a flaw in my game and exploited it to the point of being rediculious so that I would learn how to defend it.

We had a guy in our club who lost a few fights to rear chokes. For two weeks when we sparred with this guy we would start with the backmount so he had to start from a bad position and defend the rear choke. He was submitted over and over (despite having been show, and drilled the choke defense) for about a week. Finally he learned how to make it work for him and I find him one of the hardest guys to choke from the backmount. I had to learn a few new ways to setup the choke just to have a chance. This boosts the skill of the whole club.

Eventually a new guy will come in. Until he does you feel like all this sparing has lead to no gains, you feel like all you do is get yourself bruised, beat up, tired, and weak. And then you roll with this new guy. And you realize that what was once fast, hard, and troublesome is now slow, telegraphed, and easy to defend. You realize that you can handle a bigger stronger less skilled guy easier then you could a month ago. And as you roll with this guy over the next few months you watch him become a greater challenge as he gains skill and understanding. And this pushes you to train even harder, so that you can learn new skills and strategys to keep him on his toes. You also get the understand that no matter how hard to train, how good you are, there is someone out there (and most likley someone in your club) that can take you.

I dont belive any martial art is better than any other. I belive some training methods are better than others. I belive any art can benifit from more sparing and more resistant drilling. I also dont think there is anything to lose by adding these to your training. I also dont spar to win. I spar to work on a my techniques. I was tapped out all night monday. I only tapped out a couple guys. The reason was that I was working on new material that was shown to me a couple days before at a semminar. That said, I do train to win. I love competition and when I go to one, I play to win. This does mean that I have to dedicate some sparing time to training with a competition mindset. But you do not have to have a competition mindset to spar.

I also feel this post over on bullshido lends itself to this converstation and is a great read (It is an explaination of the Inquiry Method of training) http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show....php?p=1016621

Last edited by DonMagee : 07-05-2006 at 08:48 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 11:51 AM   #70
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Well said Don. Mirrors much of my own thoughts and personal experience in regards to training.

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 05:08 PM   #71
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
My point however is that they have a much more consistant level of skill because of the training methods they use.
We're talking about hypothetical people here in hypothetical situations, so it is somewhat difficult to evaluate.

It really wouldn't matter to me if a practicioner of martial art X wins 30 straight UFC-ish events, or if a person or persons are more "consistent" in the gym because they enjoy full contact and resistance there; I'd still practice aikido instead of martial art X because of its unique philosophy and proven effectiveness for defense in the real world.

Plus it fits me for a variety of other reasons. A short list of factors involved with settling down on a martial art might include
  • is it good exercise
  • is it effective in real life
  • does it use leverage or brute strength
  • how expensive is it
  • do I live near the school
  • is there an ample number of training days per week
  • what is the general reputation of style/school/teacher
  • does the time of classes fit in with my schedule
  • can any of it be practiced at home
  • can I also practice weapons
  • can any of it be practiced with minimal equipment
  • what is the potential of injury
  • did I enjoy what I found when I watched or participated in a trial class
  • can I do it as I get older
  • do I find the culture it comes from interesting
  • can I do it in street clothes
  • is the philosophy compatible with how I think

and in my research I found aikido to satisfy these more than others for me. For MMA stuff, my research showed it to lead to too many injuries, be too expensive, too few possible training days per week, and I don't care for aggression and competition that I've found it to promote. Others might find it works for them.

I know you're not saying one martial art is better than another, but it sounds like you are replacing "better" with "consistent level of skill", and it sounds like someone trying to convince that no matter the food a fork is better than a spoon.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 06:20 PM   #72
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
We're talking about hypothetical people here in hypothetical situations, so it is somewhat difficult to evaluate
I hope and pray you never have to defend yourself, or anyone else, outside of the dojo...because when you face a street smart individual that has learned from real-life encounters, and not in a comfortable mat-laden hall...there are no rules
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 07:37 PM   #73
Neal Earhart
 
Neal Earhart's Avatar
Dojo: New York Aikikai / Aikido of Westchester
Location: New York City
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 98
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
I hope and pray you never have to defend yourself, or anyone else, outside of the dojo...because when you face a street smart individual that has learned from real-life encounters, and not in a comfortable mat-laden hall...there are no rules
In my opinion, if you are in a situation where you have to actually "fight" or "defend yourself" more than likely you have placed yourself in that situation by choice.

If someone wants my wallet, I'll be glad to give it to them...just leave me alone...
If someone wants my car, here are the keys...just go away...
If someone want any belongings I'm carrying, here they are...enjoy them, and leave me alone...
If someone enters my house, I'll lock the bedroom door and call the police...

None of the above situations are worth risking your, your friends, or your spouses life over, in order to prove you can defend yourself using your martial arts training...

However, if it comes to having to fight for my life or my spouse's, I will...and during the encounter I expect to be hit, and I expect to be cut, and hopefully I will not be shot...and however my 18 years of Aikido enters into the equation, it will.

I don't know the areas where many of the forum posters live, but I live in New York City and I do not practice Aikido for the purpose of the defending myself on a daily basis...it just doesn't happen. In my life I have never been in a situation where I had to fight, where I, or someone else, haven't been able to defuse the situation before it got physical.

After reading posts and responses on this forum, I get the feeling that some people train in order to look for confrontational situations in order to "test" their skills.


"The Art of Peace is the principle of nonresistance. Because it is nonresistant, it is victorious from the beginning. Those with evil intentions or contentious thoughts are instantly vanquished. The Art of Peace is invincible because it contends with nothing"
- O Sensei

Last edited by Neal Earhart : 07-05-2006 at 07:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 07:46 PM   #74
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
Hello everyone,

what I am probably about to type is not new to many veterans out there, but hopefully will clear up some issues for beginners like me.

in the 10 months i've been training, there has been one resounding positive effect: confidence. i am simply more confident in myself.

so my best friend and I got together this weekend. mind you, i've known this guy forever, the last thing he does is insult me, or want to hurt me, but we always have "friendly" fights.

this time, we decided to turn it up a notch. i figured we could, because we trust each other, the same way an uke trusts his tori.

we cleared the living room and began to "fight." now here is what i learned about Aikido, and hopefully i will get some advice from the older students:

1) I attacked first. Basically, as soon as I did that, I lost the fight. Aikido really is a non-violent martial art. even though i knew some beginner techniques, i could not employ them, because i didn't allow my friend to attack me. therefore, i had no 'ki' to work with.

2) You have to move fast in Aikido for it to be effective. if it's not instinctual, it will not work. he *did* grab my wrists a few times, and as soon as i "connected" with him, he simply let go, and the "ki" was lost.

3) In spite of all this, i still had a chance to take him down. i had him set up for a perfect sankyo, and couldn't do it correctly.

summary: sometimes people think Aikido doesn't work. in this case, it didn't at all. but it wasn't O' Sensei's fault.

if i waited for my friend to attack first, I might've had a chance. i always acted too hastily and tried to take him down. this goes against everything Aikido teaches you.

second, if you don't practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, you will never employ the technique correctly. they require a swift, instinctual motion, with no delay or hesitation. hesitate for a second, and you have lost the technique. if you rest on your laurels, you don't stand a chance.

looking back on what i just typed, this sounds like a lot of common sense. however, i've seen a lot of "Aikido doesn't work" threads recently, and I have to agree: if you let your oppenents play their game, it will not work at all.
that is probably similar to how i would have felt had i tried employing Aikido after 10 months of training.
keep training and one day you probably will not even feel the urge to "test" your technique in this way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2006, 07:59 PM   #75
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,119
Offline
Re: Brawling with a friend

Posted by Justin 04-12-2006,
"I'm going to start taking aikido classes next month, and am excited. "

Posted by Justin 05-01-2006,
" I'll actually be starting towards the end of June, just outside of Alexandria, VA."

Hello Justin,
Have you actually started Aikido practice yet (not hypothetically)? How is it going? I am glad you are excited about Aikido and hope that when you gain some experience you will be able to speak from your experience.
Remember," all the theory in the world is NOTHING like the Real Thing."

Good Luck

Last edited by dps : 07-05-2006 at 08:03 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Frustrated by unconvincing aikido WantToSpeakOut Anonymous 88 04-18-2006 01:19 AM
I am looking for my friend KAORU MURASE melvin loh General 1 08-18-2005 08:05 PM
New Friend Casper Ledi Introductions 2 05-24-2004 10:07 AM
Poll: Have you ever lost an aikido friend or teacher to death? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 12 06-07-2003 07:03 AM
Friend or foe Bruce Baker Spiritual 29 09-17-2002 07:21 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:30 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate