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Old 06-26-2006, 06:38 PM   #26
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

As to 1), not necessarily. But at some point your loved ones will wise up and refuse to play practice dummy anymore...BTDT

2) I think this would depend a bit on who you practice with and how you practice. If you're resonably big and strong and you try to force a technique on someone smaller and weaker than you, yes you could hurt someone. Quite possibly without noticing it, if you haven't developed a lot of sensitiveness yet.

The other scenario is where suddenly something accidentally works, not because you know how to do it but because you just happen to hit the right movement, and you and your training partner are both taken by surprise. That can result in injury, too.

BTW, about attacking - you can "attack" with an aikido technique, but only if you observe all the requirements that make an aikido technique succesful in the first place. Just deciding "I'm going to ikkyo this guy" is going to fail, if your relative positions and energy and timing and whatnot are not appropriate for ikkyo. I think what easily happens in this kind of situation is that when you want to go for an aikido-technique-as-an-attack, you stop taking in everything about the other person, and attack in the wrong way, at the wrong moment, getting sort of blinded by the idea of attacking.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 06-26-2006, 07:42 PM   #27
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Luc,
What does your sensei say about this?
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Old 06-26-2006, 07:56 PM   #28
mickeygelum
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I am restraining myself from being totally honest in my opinion...but, If you do not train for life , you lead a false life...so, when you practice with whomever it is, remember that if they allow you to do whatever you want/attempt...you are not doing Aikido, you are performing as if in a play...or forbid, PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING....now, this will evoke some responses, but, if you do not have 10 years of diligent practice under your belt, please do not embarrass yourself with a "MY SENSEI SAID" reply...if you do not put your skills to the test...sign up for "DOJO BALLERINA 101" ...
does anyone else get tired of hearing " AIKIDO IS NON-CONFRONTATIONAL" or " AIKIDO IS NOT COMPETITIVE "....it is a diluted form of combat...a contemporary form of budo...please, train as if it would be the final time before you face an unknown opponent...trust your partners not to rob you of the ability to defend yourself if needed....yet, compassionate enough to realize when you have to no longer defend yourself and have not become the aggressor....
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Old 06-26-2006, 08:08 PM   #29
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Doesn't it strike anyone else as odd that on the one had Aikido is touted as the pacifists martial art - subdue your opponenet without hamring them etc etc, and on the other we get these too dangerous to spar type arguments?
Personally I still maintain that it's not an issue of being too dangerous so much as Aikido works best against a particular type of unfettered agression which you don't see alot in sparring and certainly not in two mates facing off in the living room.
I hope you realize I didn't say it's too dangerous to spar. I think it's perfectly fine to train off the mat. I was just speaking from the top of my head and after trying to think about how one might train, I felt the need to include a caveat. People get hurt ON the mat, when they've been training for a few years. I've come somewhat close to dislocating a person's shoulder without a whole lot more effort than it takes to raise and lower my hand. I think it's smart to be careful. Aikido teaches a pacifist's intention, but the techniques can tear a joint apart pretty easily if one isn't careful. Nikkyo, for example, has claimed one training partner (I didn't do it! I swear!).
"Stuff happens" and it's wise to be careful, that's all.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 06-26-2006 at 08:16 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 06-26-2006, 10:24 PM   #30
Dom_Shodan
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I think you are very perceptive Luc. Aikido in its purest form is a non-violent path. As you said, it was not O-Sensei's fault. The inability to apply a technique falls on the shoulders of the Aikidoka. It is not a reflection on Osensei's teachings, rather just your inexperience in the art. Having said that, I believe that your thinking and analysis on Aikido is very admirable. Your Idea's may change as you become proficient, but for someone to be in deep thought of Aikido at your level, makes you to be a very promising Aikidoka. I wish we had more students like you at my dojo. Thanks for the interesting read.

Dominic.
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Old 06-26-2006, 11:04 PM   #31
dps
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Dominic Prokop wrote:
Aikido in its purest form is a non-violent path.
I would like you to provide the proof where O"Sensei said this.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:09 AM   #32
xuzen
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

In a brawl i.e, a friendly sparring match where each party is trying not to hurt the other party, wrestling is a good delivery system. Sportified version of judo is a good avenue to engage in such friendlies. Alternative would be wrestling. Boxing or pugilistic approach is possible with protective gear and strict rules. Such friendlies is a good avenue to practice sportmanship and atheletism. In my mind, to play this type of game, aikido purist will fare rather poorly.

Some say in aikido there is no offence, some say there is. And yet, yokomenuchi, shomenuchi, or mune tsuki are the typical offence you see in a aikido dojo. So technically those are your offensive version of so called aikido technique.

But then, people argue, those attack are unrealistic... nobody in real world would throw a punch like that? These people argue, in REAL WORLD (TM) street hudlum will tuck their chin in, hands will assume boxing position, assume a boxing stance and go mano on mano with you.

I am a real person, I live in a real world, and yet when I think of it, I am not going to tuck my chin in, and assume a boxing stance. I will instead, should the need arise, execute the typical yokomen uchi, shomen uchi type of attack so bemoan of the typical fighter. But bear in mind instead of barehand, you bet I will be holding something hard and not easily breakable (stones, helmet or glass bottle).

So, people, does your aikido have offence. Mine does, and it you want REAL OFFENSE (TM), it will be with a weapon. Deal with it.

So if people ask you, how does aikido deal with a boxer? Get a jo and show them. How does aikido deal with newaza? Get a jo and show them. How does aikido deal with a crazed mad man lunging at you with a knife ala mune tuski fashion.... SHOMEN-ATE (TM)!!!

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:38 AM   #33
nswren
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I too have only begun my training (almost a year now!) but I agree with much of what has been said.

At my level of experience, if a technique is going to work, it is because it is completely instinctual -- a person went to hit me and tsuki kotegaeshi just happened. The one or two times I've had the "friendly" fights you talk about, I'm careful to make sure I don't try for any techniques for fear of hurting someone; instead, I think about my ma'ai and how I'm moving. Knowing my friends, I'm careful about which of them hear I've started practicing aikido -- I don't want to deal with "Oh yeah? Prove it works..."
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Old 06-27-2006, 01:13 AM   #34
theflyingheadbuttsuplex
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Thumbs down Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
Hello everyone,

what I am probably about to type is not new to many veterans out there, but hopefully will clear up some issues for beginners like me.

in the 10 months i've been training, there has been one resounding positive effect: confidence. i am simply more confident in myself.

so my best friend and I got together this weekend. mind you, i've known this guy forever, the last thing he does is insult me, or want to hurt me, but we always have "friendly" fights.

this time, we decided to turn it up a notch. i figured we could, because we trust each other, the same way an uke trusts his tori.

we cleared the living room and began to "fight." now here is what i learned about Aikido, and hopefully i will get some advice from the older students:

1) I attacked first. Basically, as soon as I did that, I lost the fight. Aikido really is a non-violent martial art. even though i knew some beginner techniques, i could not employ them, because i didn't allow my friend to attack me. therefore, i had no 'ki' to work with.

2) You have to move fast in Aikido for it to be effective. if it's not instinctual, it will not work. he *did* grab my wrists a few times, and as soon as i "connected" with him, he simply let go, and the "ki" was lost.

3) In spite of all this, i still had a chance to take him down. i had him set up for a perfect sankyo, and couldn't do it correctly.

summary: sometimes people think Aikido doesn't work. in this case, it didn't at all. but it wasn't O' Sensei's fault.

if i waited for my friend to attack first, I might've had a chance. i always acted too hastily and tried to take him down. this goes against everything Aikido teaches you.

second, if you don't practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, you will never employ the technique correctly. they require a swift, instinctual motion, with no delay or hesitation. hesitate for a second, and you have lost the technique. if you rest on your laurels, you don't stand a chance.

looking back on what i just typed, this sounds like a lot of common sense. however, i've seen a lot of "Aikido doesn't work" threads recently, and I have to agree: if you let your oppenents play their game, it will not work at all.

It might not be my place to say so (I've only been doing aikido for 2 years, which is like 2 seconds to some people ) but these seem to be fairly astute observations. Especially the one about not playing the opponents game. Good job, and for all who don't know, brawling with friends is fun!

If there is no wind, row!
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Old 06-27-2006, 01:59 AM   #35
shadowedge
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
after class, when i go home, i still want to do Aikido. does this feeling go away?
In my case, the feeling never goes away... simply can't get enough of it.... BUT...

Quote:
at some point your loved ones will wise up and refuse to play practice dummy anymore
how true how true....
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:18 AM   #36
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Hello ron
May be I was not clear in what I was trying to get across. Regardless of the pertinence of free sparing in aikido, It is not a matter of how hard it is to break someone arm or the deadliness of the art itself, It is a mater of how easy it is to protect the participant of thing outside their control.
I am not really an expert but cutting with the hand behind the shoulder with shiho-nague is what makes it safe, If you cut more away from his body it will become much more iffy.
Safety in fee sparing does not only involve the skill of each participant that is why I used the shiho-nague over the top. If each participant know what they are doing we can make it relatively safe if not especially pleasant. However it has a fair potential to go horribly wrong and we do not have any means of protecting ourselves other than not letting it go horribly wrong.

I am not saying that we should not do randori or kokuy because they are safe and controlled environment but this is world apart from free-sparing.
.

Denmetrio, I can disagree with what you say
But if you take away techniques, it is a bit like fencing with a long sword and say that you are not cutting because it is too dangerous, in that case you are really doing mid period rapier or small sword but not really longsword anymore.

phil
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:26 AM   #37
DonMagee
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
So, people, does your aikido have offence. Mine does, and it you want REAL OFFENSE (TM), it will be with a weapon. Deal with it.

So if people ask you, how does aikido deal with a boxer? Get a jo and show them. How does aikido deal with newaza? Get a jo and show them. How does aikido deal with a crazed mad man lunging at you with a knife ala mune tuski fashion.... SHOMEN-ATE (TM)!!!

Boon.
So when your on the street and a guy attempts to tackle you to the ground so he can pound your head in, are you going to ask him to wait right there while you get a jo? Wouldn't it be better to just train against guys with actually ground skills to learn what to expect from a person with those skills and learn how to defend against them with your skills. Its a lot like saying "My aikido will defend me from boxers. How do I know? Well because O'Sensei was unbeaten." or saying "How do you defend against grapplers? Well dont go to the ground". These kind of statements dont actually mean anything. They dont solve an issue, they skirt around it. If you want to learn how to use aikido against a strong skilled sriker, which of these training methods are going to build skill fastest (this is assuming you are at least shodan rank)

Method 1) I train at my dojo with other aikido people who throw yokomen, shomen, and meski strikes at me. Possibly these people have no striking training outside of aikido. Or at best stand in a boxers stance and throw jabs leaving the arm out at the end of the jab.

Method 2) I train with a boxer or karate guy who moves around and throws strikes at about 25-50% power at me while I attempt to leverage my aikido. Then as I get better he steps up his attacks until I can deal with his footwork and strikes at any level. When run this drill until he forces retreat, tap, or verbal tap with strikes, or I submit him with a pin or lock. Then I find other strikers and do the same thing (because everyone is different and more training partners means more variety).

Again, lets say i'm worried about takedowns. Which method is best for me.

Method 1) I train at my dojo again. This time I have students do the 'football ducking single leg'. This is what you get when you tell someone untrained in grappling to do a single leg. They start about 2 feet back, bend over looking at your leg then run into you and attempt to push you over with their shoulder while holding onto your leg.

Method 2) I find a grappler, lets say a judo guy. I have him engage in randori with me using his judo. I have him go about 30% and then scale it up as I get better. We go until either I get thrown, or I throw or standing lock him. We continue to increase the skill level until we are in full randori.

This does not mean that method 2 has to be someone outside of your aikido dojo. Maybe you have a strong judoka in your dojo who can give you an accurate version of a takedown. Or maybe you have a karate guy in your dojo who can throw good strikes. But principles are not as easy to apply as actually experiance.

One last example. You have a programming job you need done. You have two choices to pick from

1) This programmer is fresh out of college with a BS in CS. He has never worked in the field but has trained daily for 4 years. He knows all the latest theory and design principles as well as all the langauges required.
2) This programmer has no college education. He started working in computers at age 17 and worked his way up though a company where he became a programmer. He was the lead developer of several successful projects for this company. Though his work he has learned the skills and languages needed. His previous employers projects have not been as mission critical as the project you have now, but he has actual work experiance in the language and multiple sucesssful projects written in this language.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:51 AM   #38
Chris Li
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote:
For exemple the 3rd bone breaker at the arm, is word for word shiho-nage irimi-omote. And it is to be used as the name aptly says, to break the arm of your opponent.
I don't get this one - the Japanese says nothing at all about "breaking the arm". Misunderstood in translation?

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-27-2006, 10:08 AM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Sounds like Mixed Martial Arts to me Don!

I personally like this approach to training. it isn't for everyone, but if you have a particular risk factor or concern that you feel is important to mitigate....training this way is the only way I know how to do it properly.

IMO, if you train in traditional aikido you will become very good at traditional aikido. If it works in a fight, it works. It may or may not work depending on the day of the week your feeling, mood, awareness, hydration level...or any number of factors.

Also, IMO, if you want to be a better fighter...train as you fight and fight as you train. It is as simple as that! Last I checked you don't "train as you fight" in an aikido dojo for the most part.

Aikido may be a part of your training regime, (for fighting), but it is no where near complete as a methodology.
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Old 06-27-2006, 10:31 AM   #40
Talon
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:

IMO, if you train in traditional aikido you will become very good at traditional aikido. If it works in a fight, it works. It may or may not work depending on the day of the week your feeling, mood, awareness, hydration level...or any number of factors.
I say this will apply to any type of training. Factors such as health, mood, hydration, awareness and most importantly LUCK....play a huge role and can ultimately determine the result in a fight no matter what martial art or method you're training.
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Old 06-27-2006, 10:52 AM   #41
Richard Langridge
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote:
For exemple the 3rd bone breaker at the arm, is word for word shiho-nage irimi-omote. And it is to be used as the name aptly says, to break the arm of your opponent.
Um, I'm pretty sure shi-ho-nage means (literally) four-direction-throw.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:00 PM   #42
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Richard Langridge wrote:
Um, I'm pretty sure shi-ho-nage means (literally) four-direction-throw.
I have to agree with Richard.
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:28 PM   #43
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

a little more background on why we "fought", just to clear up some issues.

even though i've just begun, i feel like i'm used to the conditioning that a controlled environment (such as a dojo) has given me. i know how we're going to begin: warmup. i know the sequence of the warmup before it begins. i know which uke's i will work with. i know i will never see a kick today. etc etc etc.

so training with a karateka is a fresh experience. my trainer at the gym tells me to mix up my workout regime all the time: when the muscles get used to the same workout, they stop improving.

similarly, if you looked at my original post, i would have never had these thoughts, or posted here and had a discussion, if i trained with an aikidoka that night. he bear hugged me. he tried to kick me. he didn't give me time to connect. i still prefer the dojo for a million +1 reasons, but that night, i needed a different kind of learning experience.

does that make any sense?
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Old 06-27-2006, 04:00 PM   #44
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Brawling with a friend

For me personally, it would make sense if you'd been training longer than 10 months, or in an art that get's assimilated in most people quicker than aikido does. But considering we are talking aikido, and only 10 months...nope, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. But the good thing is that what we think doesn't really matter. Hopefully your aikido will continue to improve, and you will continue to test it occationally, and you'll be happy with the results.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-27-2006, 04:13 PM   #45
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I think it makes sense because it makes you think. As Ron states, with 10 months of training under your belt though, it may not give you the same opinion or decisions that you might make 10 years from now, but I think that is okay as long as you continue to have an open mind.

I think that aikido can be very parochial sometimes, but with only 10 months, again, it may lead to more questions and confusion than answers. Nothing wrong with having questions though!
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Old 06-27-2006, 06:04 PM   #46
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote:
Denmetrio, I can disagree with what you say
But if you take away techniques, it is a bit like fencing with a long sword and say that you are not cutting because it is too dangerous, in that case you are really doing mid period rapier or small sword but not really longsword anymore.
Of course you can disagree with what i say , it's a forum.

However, i prefer free sparring with a shinai, protective equipement and restricted rules than going nhb against the air with a shinken. Different tastes, no problem.

In any case i wasn´t taking away tecniques, i was pointing to the existence of techniques which can be used both in free sparring /spontaneous training with educational purposes and (with luck and the other variables) to protect ourselves, or our loved ones, without excessive damage for the hypothetical attacker.

BTW, you can have a longsword, but aikiotoshi the bad guy:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/117.jpg

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 06-27-2006 at 06:10 PM.

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Old 06-28-2006, 11:09 AM   #47
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Richard Langridge wrote:
Um, I'm pretty sure shi-ho-nage means (literally) four-direction-throw.
yes that is my undrestanding as well
the 3rd bone breaker at the arm is a ringen (german medieval wrestling) whis is described like a shiho nague irimi omote.
sorry i was not ultra clear.

phil
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Old 06-28-2006, 11:28 AM   #48
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brawling with a friend

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
BTW, you can have a longsword, but aikiotoshi the bad guy:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/117.jpg
Hello demetrio
You are preaching to the choir.
I find that there is lots of technical similitude between aikido and medieval wrestling. (hence if needed be more to convince me that aikido works. That fencing tradition was used in judicial duels, where the looser, if not killed outright was executed by very unpleasant mean. As mister Wallace points out in pulp fiction)

Meyer is a fencing master that at lest two treatise one in 1475 and the other in 1600
His coming from a older tradition. The original fencing master was Johaness lichtanauer. The first written mention of him is in a 1380-90 document.
Johaness lichtanauer wrote in mnemonic verses about longsword, wrestling with and without armour on foot and on horse. A fair amount of the fencing manuscript we have from germany in the 15th century explains those verses.

For those interested, here is a quick and dirty translation of the text. (My 15th century german is better, well less worse, that my 16th…so sorry in advance to any Germans...)

Yet a wrestling at the body
??? he runs at you and has his arms and you also, so hold the sword in the right hand and strike move his across from you with that. Step with the left foot behind his right and grab his left side with your left arm under and across his breast and tie/take him on you left hip and throw him behind you. This technique can be done either side.

phil
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:42 AM   #49
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Brawling with a friend

The decision to use a technique in free sparring should be based on your opponent's weaknesses.

Attacking first can be fine, you just have to pick the right attack.
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Old 07-03-2006, 09:18 AM   #50
skinnymonkey
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Re: Brawling with a friend

I was reading this thread a while back and I was thinking about these quotes.

Quote:
Friends are for having a good time with, what happens when you do get to the point when you can 'beat' him, will it change the nature of the relationship? will you feel superior to him? will he be pleased for you?
Quote:
Fighting is such a 'gross' level of human interaction, there are better ways to go about things
To me... much of this stuff is like when I play Chess. I play Chess with people who are my friends - sometimes they beat me, and sometimes I beat them. I'm always learning new moves and setups to watch out for and new things to try. It's always just for fun and it doesn't change our relationship, because they are always getting better too. The same goes for the people I "fight" with. I get popped every now and then and I pop every now and then. I don't hold it against someone else when they get a good shot off or a good takedown, and they don't hold it against me either. It actually kind of gets us closer in a weird way. It's a real different relationship after you've boxed with a guy or had some sort of physical match against them. In the places I work out... it doesn't hurt to fight, as long as you are fighting people you respect and who respect you and as long as you are fighting to improve yourself, not to "beat" the other guy.

Anyway, I have to kind of disagree with those quotes (from my perspective). Fighting (or brawling) can be a lot like chess... depending on how you approach it and who you are interacting with.

Just my two cents and I can certainly see what you mean in those quotes, I just haven't experienced that in my own life.

Thanks!

Jeff D.
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