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Old 10-20-2007, 09:01 PM   #26
Tijani1150
 
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

another difference is the Kata system Yoshinkan has aka Kihon Dosa I am not sure if Aikikai has anything similar, I think Yoshinkan has 5 or 6 different kinds of Ukemi's..

the way I see it is that in Yoshinkan a technique is broken into 1-3 sometimes 1-4 movements where the same technique in Aikikai is executed in one go, I don't know weather this breakage of a technique is original to Yoshinkan or was introduced to simplify the learning of Aikido to the Tokyo police dept.
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Old 10-21-2007, 08:39 PM   #27
Nikopol
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Quote:
Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
another difference is the Kata system Yoshinkan has aka Kihon Dosa I am not sure if Aikikai has anything similar, I think Yoshinkan has 5 or 6 different kinds of Ukemi's..

the way I see it is that in Yoshinkan a technique is broken into 1-3 sometimes 1-4 movements where the same technique in Aikikai is executed in one go, I don't know weather this breakage of a technique is original to Yoshinkan or was introduced to simplify the learning of Aikido to the Tokyo police dept.
I agree,

I also have concluded that the 1-2-3 was introduced to instruct large groups such as the police force, who are more inclined to following commands.

The kihondosa in Aikido are interesting in that they train strength and balance in addition to technique; in AIkikai they would be expressed by the more fluid tenkan excercises.

There comes a point in every Yoshinkan Aikidoka's progress (the beginning of jiyuwaza) when they must discard the 1-2-3, but ideally, from the Yoshinkan perspective, retain the clarity of form and the stance, which is at all times as if the techniques were performed with a sword.
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:24 PM   #28
Tijani1150
 
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

You know I have found this breakage of a technique to be very helpful in perfecting the execution of that technique, The fine details of 1 2 3 can make all the difference in the final outcome it has helped me so much in Aikikai I also found it very useful in understanding a newly introduced technique which may seem complicated at first so I would just watch how it is done in Yoshinkan and it makes all the difference.

God bless Gozo
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:27 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Yeah...when I started in aikido (aikikai) I used to ask "so where do my feet go???".

I felt so at home in the Yosh...they actually told me where my feet go before I asked!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:29 PM   #30
Tijani1150
 
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Yeah...when I started in aikido (aikikai) I used to ask "so where do my feet go???".

I felt so at home in the Yosh...they actually told me where my feet go before I asked!

Best,
Ron
exactly
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Old 10-23-2007, 06:09 AM   #31
roadster
 
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Without turning this into a pissing match, I can say that terminology aside, there are more similarities than differences and that we are still practicing Aikido.

It's not apples and oranges; at least not to me. I started in a Yoshinkan dojo and am now in an aikikai affiliated dojo. I have learned well in both dojos.
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Old 10-23-2007, 08:22 AM   #32
xuzen
 
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Yoshinkan peepul no smart. Too much head banging from Shihonage. Muss haf sensei shout 1-2-3 to learn.... no kompilikated stuff.

Boon The Yoshi-Orge (TM).

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-23-2007, 08:04 PM   #33
Nikopol
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

[quote=Erik Jacobson;192191]Without turning this into a pissing match, I can say that terminology aside, there are more similarities than differences and that we are still practicing Aikido.
QUOTE]

I absolutely agree. That is what I am finding. I would think that because we start in a different hanmi that the technique was different but after breaking through the unfamiliarity I would think, "wait a minute..."

These are exactly the same.

I can see that they have just passed through a different filter.
But both filters have been accurate. Like a stereoscopic image, that, when re-integrated by my brain, produces an accurate portrait of the original image (O Sensei.)
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:45 PM   #34
KamiKaze_Evolution
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Yoshinkan peepul no smart. Too much head banging from Shihonage. Muss haf sensei shout 1-2-3 to learn.... no kompilikated stuff.

Boon The Yoshi-Orge (TM).
Only O Sensei said that "Aiki" is way of life

KamiKaze
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:41 PM   #35
Nikopol
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Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai: Episode 2

(Star Wars Opening Theme Music Plays)

Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai
Episode 2 : A New Direction

. Up to this point, we have examined some of the
. differences in detail between Yoshinkan and
. Aikikai, with the agreement that they
. are more alike than different.
. Now I would like to steer
. the discussion in
. a new light,
. that is..

To rephrase the question. Let us focus on another meaning of
the word, 'difference'. As in, "They have had differences
in the past". Meaning disagreements.

If you read the Yoshinkan and AIkikai books published by Kodansha, you find each titled 'Aikido ..' and telling you what Aikido is, basically in agreement on all points but mysteriously neglecting to mention each other in their histories.

In the dojos here in Japan, there seems to be some contempt for Aikikai in Yoshinkan and contempt for Yoshinkan in Aikikai.

So I would like to refresh this thread, focusing on my deepest question at this point, which is,

"Wha happened!?"

I know that Shioda san was backed to start the Yoshinkan in 1957. What was O Sensei's opinion of this? And what happened? What accidents, what misunderstandings, what historical events contributed to the current estrangement of these two lineages, and what current attitudes and decisions perpetuate this situation?

I am sure many of you Aiki-historians have a wealth of information on this.

Now that I have come to grips with both styles, I have come to see that this is the real question.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:56 PM   #36
Steven
 
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Shioda Sensei's dojo, the Yoshinkan, was opened in 1955, not 1957.

As for what O'Sensei thought, I can only guess he had no issue with it. Stan Pranin has a video that has footage from 1958 that shows Shioda, Saito and Tohei Sensei's all taking ukemi for him.

Last edited by Steven : 12-05-2007 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:21 AM   #37
Nikopol
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Differences between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
Shioda Sensei's dojo, the Yoshinkan, was opened in 1955, not 1957.

As for what O'Sensei thought, I can only guess he had no issue with it. Stan Pranin has a video that has footage from 1958 that shows Shioda, Saito and Tohei Sensei's all taking ukemi for him.
Thanks for the correction. Do you know where we could see that video? I would love to have a look. If there is a link could you post it?

Then back to the bigger question. Why the bad blood between Yoshinkan and Aikikai, esp. in Japan...?
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:33 AM   #38
Steven
 
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Re: Differences between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Quote:
Vincent Nikopol wrote: View Post
Thanks for the correction. Do you know where we could see that video? I would love to have a look. If there is a link could you post it?

Then back to the bigger question. Why the bad blood between Yoshinkan and Aikikai, esp. in Japan...?
The video is in Aikido Classics 1, "Postwar Greats". Not sure if it is online anywhere.

As for your question regarding the bad blood, I cannot tell you and would question if that is really the case or simply an isolated situation.

Terada Sensei has several folks from the Aikikai who visit him on a regular basis, I met and trained with a couple of them in Japan, and I know Ando Sensei also welcomes aikikai folks. Maybe because they are both aikikai yudansha as well. Can't tell you.

Suppose you should ask the groups in question directly, because anything else would be pure speculation.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:45 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

To add to which the head of the Yoshinkan is often (always??) present at the head table of the All Japan Aikido Demonstration (Aikikai) each year in the Budokan. Saw Inoue Sensei there myself some years ago.

We peons tend to make too much of these things, I think.

Train where you have fun, leave the politics for the politicians.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:04 PM   #40
Nikopol
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Such positive notes are most welcome. Thank you both.

I will ask the question to my Sensei when there is a suitable opportunity, such as a nomikai, but I hope to find out as much as possible from my sempai here at Aikiweb as well.
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:55 PM   #41
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

In the state of Washington, there are two big universities. University of Washington and Washington State University. They have a big football game once a year. Oddly enough, despite the similarities of names and the fact they are both playing football, they line up on opposite ends of the field, and their fans scream at each other.

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Old 12-10-2007, 07:17 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

Ellis, you crack me up! Good to see you online...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-12-2007, 03:10 PM   #43
Joseph Madden
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Re: Difference between Yoshinkan and Aikikai

It should also be mentioned that the "verifiable" deaths due to aikido all took place in schools or universities that were Aikikai and not Yoshinkan. For a group (Japanese specific, mind you) that prides itself on being less brutal, the Aikikai has a lot to answer for (kidding).

OSU

Although I'm sure some deaths occurred due to Yoshinkan.
We cover our tracks better.
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