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Old 06-27-2006, 07:08 PM   #26
dps
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

The question of the poll is about physical principles not the psychological or spiritual principals of Aikido. The primary physical principle is self protection over your assailants.
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Old 06-27-2006, 08:00 PM   #27
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I disagree again. The primary aim is not protecting yourself. Defending yourself by instinct is a primary natural indulgence. Chimpanzees do it. Other animals do it. Other martial artists do it.
But an aikidoka is a missionary. Everything becomes part of the practice. Takemusu Aiki, and so forth and so on. Aikido continually returns to the question: "Now what?"
I don't see the two paragraphs as representing mutually exclusive concepts. Protecting the self, for example, is what allows a mother to raise her offspring and for other protectors of life to continue protecting life. It's from this that I think self-preservation has become such a deeply engrained instinct. The basis of every group (whether it be species, phylum, culture, nuclear family, or whatever) is the individual. This doesn't mean the individual always takes precedence over the group, but I do think it means we can't imply self-preservation is inferior or otherwise less evolved.
You seem to be saying there is a significant distinction between protectig the self and protecting the other. I don't see a distinction between protecting the self and protecting others, when the goal is simply protecting. Using your "now what" example: after I sacrifice myself for the sake of some stranger, for example, and who may be a good or bad person (for lack of better words) who will continue to do good or bad things, the proverbial "now what" question would seem to get the response, "now you cannot protect anyone else, including those you 'know' are going to do good."
I'm not saying one ought never sacrifice, but I don't see it as the better situation to sacrifice the self for the sake of just anyone. If I say protecting the other (any other) is the primary goal (in a context which implies protecting the self is always secondary), it could be that I am in fact harming the greater good which I seek to serve.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 06-27-2006, 08:14 PM   #28
dps
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Protecting yourself is instinctual and training in Aikido (or any martial art eastern or western) trains you how to react instinctively to protect yourself.

Last edited by dps : 06-27-2006 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:27 PM   #29
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark Uttech wrote:
The primary aim is not protecting yourself.

Would you let your assailant beat you in order to protect him?
You don't protect the attacker by letting him/her beat the daylights out of you. That is but another extreme. I think in any situation, your training comes to the fore. So, how you train is how you will be. It is an ongoing koan, something we think that we have to solve. And yes, we should strive to solve it if we want our training, our practice to mean anything. An aikido dojo is not a gym.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:38 PM   #30
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I don't see the two paragraphs as representing mutually exclusive concepts. Protecting the self, for example, is what allows a mother to raise her offspring and for other protectors of life to continue protecting life. It's from this that I think self-preservation has become such a deeply engrained instinct. The basis of every group (whether it be species, phylum, culture, nuclear family, or whatever) is the individual. This doesn't mean the individual always takes precedence over the group, but I do think it means we can't imply self-preservation is inferior or otherwise less evolved.
You seem to be saying there is a significant distinction between protectig the self and protecting the other. I don't see a distinction between protecting the self and protecting others, when the goal is simply protecting. Using your "now what" example: after I sacrifice myself for the sake of some stranger, for example, and who may be a good or bad person (for lack of better words) who will continue to do good or bad things, the proverbial "now what" question would seem to get the response, "now you cannot protect anyone else, including those you 'know' are going to do good."
I'm not saying one ought never sacrifice, but I don't see it as the better situation to sacrifice the self for the sake of just anyone. If I say protecting the other (any other) is the primary goal (in a context which implies protecting the self is always secondary), it could be that I am in fact harming the greater good which I seek to serve.
Good post Matthew.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:46 PM   #31
dps
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
You don't protect the attacker by letting him/her beat the daylights out of you. That is but another extreme.
I believe that you can protect your attacker by stopping him/her from beating the daylights or killing you. Your initial response to the attack is to protect yourself then protect your attacker.
There is a hierarchy of responses you can have that starts at the top with awareness to prevent being in situations where you can be attacked, to a situation where you have to eliminate the attacker to protect yourself. There are different degrees of responses in between those two.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:52 PM   #32
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Good post Matthew.

LC
Thank you! As the saying goes: the sun shines on a dog's [back] every now and then.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 06-28-2006, 12:51 AM   #33
Michael Young
 
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

My current thought process:

I don't think there are any "physical principles" unique only to Aikido, but the manner in which the principles are combined with the physical movements is unique. For example, music consists of different tones (notes) and rythmic patterns, and the way in which the notes and rythym are combined creates something distinctive. A style, if you will... i.e. "classical", "jazz", "country", "rock and roll", etc. Each of those styles of music, while still containing notes, rythmic patterns, particular scales and so on, contain combinations of each of those elements that are unique unto themselves, creating a sound that can (usually) be readily identified as belonging to the particular genre.

Indulging myself here, the metaphor could be extended further: certain genres of music are more encompasing and complex than others. For example, classical music is generally considered more complex than say, blues or country; requiring a more in-depth understanding of music theory and practice (I realize this is a generalization)...just as some martial arts generally require a greater understanding of body mechanics, control of space and timing, and a larger syllabus of techniques (jiujitsu for example) while others are seemingly less complex (like many striking arts). I usually compare Aikido to Jazz. To play Jazz music well requires a very thorough grounding in basic music theory and a complete understanding of rythm, chords, scales (classical music theory and practice) before those things can be combined uniquely and played with real proficiency. To truly practice Aikido requires a very comprehensive understanding of physical principles of movement, timing, spacing, and body mechanics, etc before the ability to understand and apply the actual "aiki" are available to a practioner.

So, it begs the question: What makes Aikido, Aikido? There must be something physically distinctive about Aikido that differentiates it from other arts....isn't there? Maybe others can put what that is in better terms than I, so in the meantime here is what I say:
"I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it" :
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Old 06-28-2006, 07:59 AM   #34
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Excellent discussion, and I hear the kami telling me that we are treading ALL OVER Jun's next poll!!!

In the ASU handbook M. Saotome Sensei states that the kihon of aikido must be preserved or aikido will devolve into something else. Let me quote the gentleman since his words weigh more:

Quote:
Aikido has a basic structure, kihon waza, which allows you to study the fundamental principles of the art. The structure of this training process is the same as a scientific formula. As a formula is an exacting international language that allows scientists to communicate and explore the depths of scientific principle, kihon waza is an international language allowing Aikidoka from all over the world to communicate and explore the basic truths of Aikido. If this basic structure is lost, Aikido is lost.
My last class in Psychology was the Psychology of Language - the Prof said there are several defining world views - rational linear, organic, synthetic, and one I forget. If I adopt the organic view I can speak very plainly about the interconnectedness of all things. In this way I am not referencing the 'mystical' when I suggest that to protect one's opponent is to protect oneself, especially if you are a martial artist and you have to explain to the police why there is a person lying in the ground in front of you. (At my wife's school BOTH parties are punished when there is a fight; this is also true where I work - immediate dismissal)

david
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Old 06-28-2006, 11:21 AM   #35
JMCavazos
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

I think that the physical principals are present in other martial arts. In most MA, they don't get into those principals until later on in their training - almost like "hidden teachings". We get them right off the bat!

Now as far as the spiritual application of the art - this what funadamentally makes aikido different from aikijujitsu. Aikido is basically O'Sensei taking a brutal martial art and applying his spiritual beliefs to the art - making it so vastly different from aikijujitsu that is merited a new system.

Physical fundamentals - NO. Spiritual fundamentals - YES.
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Old 06-28-2006, 11:30 AM   #36
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

I'm tickin everybody off today man!

Joe Cavazos said
Quote:
Physical fundamentals - NO. Spiritual fundamentals - YES.
Not so, Sir. Judo teaches much the same, if less purely spiritual and more spiritual/civic minded.

david
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Old 06-28-2006, 11:43 AM   #37
dps
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

[quote=
I am not referencing the 'mystical' when I suggest that to protect one's opponent is to protect oneself, especially if you are a martial artist and you have to explain to the police why there is a person lying in the ground in front of you.[/QUOTE]

So the police won't believe "God told me to" or " the devil made me do it" as the reason.
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Old 06-28-2006, 11:49 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

They may believe it, but they will still lock you up...

B,
R

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Old 06-28-2006, 11:49 AM   #39
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Hi David,

I hope you are having a good day. I don't believe you have "ticked off" anybody!

Anyway, my take on the question of physical principals was my "real" reply to the postings. Yes, Jigoro Kano espoused some of the aikido spiritual philosophy, as well as most other martial arts. But I still stand by my quote that aikido is what it is due to O'Sensei's spiritual revelations that he had. (The Golden Light, etc....)

This is my thoughts on it: I may be totally wrong. I may be somewhat wrong. I may not be wrong.

So what? It shouldn't bother anybody!

In aiki,
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Old 06-28-2006, 12:15 PM   #40
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Speaking from experience Ron?

hhah

I should know that aikidoka aren't afraid of a little atemi!

When I was younger I didn't bruise so damn easily. ha!

dave
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Old 06-28-2006, 01:23 PM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

No, not in this case....thankfully! But I have seen it happen to others.

I still don't bruise easily (too dark skinned for that) but it hurts a whole lot more than it used to!

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-28-2006, 04:08 PM   #42
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

I just re-checked the poll results and 36% have gone with "Yes", thus narrowing the gap. Aikido would not be aikido if it was like the other arts. But it is entirely possible that fewer people in aikido than in other arts feel the need to cross train.
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Old 06-28-2006, 04:26 PM   #43
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Mark,

Show your cards Sir. Name or describe any physical principle not present in other budo please.

davd
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Old 06-28-2006, 06:28 PM   #44
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
you have to explain to the police why there is a person lying in the ground in front of you. (At my wife's school BOTH parties are punished when there is a fight; this is also true where I work - immediate dismissal)
I tend to agree that the differences in Aikido and other arts have more to do with spiritual principles or - at least - attitude than any physical ideas.

Your comment above put me in mind of a situation that happened with one of my students that illustrates a very important point of Aikido to me - the ability to deal with a fight without fighting. More often than not, IME, Aikido works best when the Aikidoka doesn't fight back.

My student - probably about six at the time - came to class one night with a story to tell me. I think his mother was more excited than he was. Some kids attacked him on the playground, he just turned and bowed and they all fell down. They got in trouble, he didn't. Why not? Because he was never fighting and it was obvious to the teachers that this was so.

That "shrugging the attack off" kind of thing is an important idea in Aikido, IMO, and one of the hardest things to master. But there isn't anything special about the physical principles involved.

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Old 06-28-2006, 07:08 PM   #45
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
My current thought process:
For example, music consists of different tones (notes) and rythmic patterns, and the way in which the notes and rythym are combined creates something distinctive. A style, if you will...
I thought this was a GREAT analogy! Conceptually it really clicked with me.
Doumo arigato gozaimasu,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 06-28-2006, 08:34 PM   #46
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
AikiWeb System wrote:
Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?
Maybe the emphasis on self defense from a half standing half ground position, with emphasis on not getting tangled up with the opponent but being able to be mobile and not be seen as the aggressor?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:09 AM   #47
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Jonathan Han wrote:
I respectfully disagree. I've been studying bagua (a Chinese internal martial art). It is all about turning and circles, both external and internal. I think Aikido could incorporate a few turning tricks that works better and saves our knees from potential damage. I don't think Aikido contains physical principles not present in other martial arts. Nor does it lack anything present in other martial arts (at least the arts I've been exposed to). But since the question said "budo" are we limiting the comparison to just a few Japanese styles?
bro jonathan,

i'm chinese but have never studied bagua. Wonder if you could explain or describe the turning techniques that you have mentioned. Im a newbie and was wondering if "old" aikido practitioners end up with "wobbly" knees or something like that bcos i keep reading about damage to knees. thanks in advance.

Last edited by ksy : 06-29-2006 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:47 AM   #48
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Mark,

Show your cards Sir. Name or describe any physical principle not present in other budo please.

davd

A good player does not show his cards. He plays them. In gassho
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Old 06-29-2006, 07:35 AM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

Quote:
Maybe the emphasis on self defense from a half standing half ground position, with emphasis on not getting tangled up with the opponent but being able to be mobile and not be seen as the aggressor?
If you mean hanmi handachi/hanza handachi, Daito ryu has that. If you mean suwari waza, several other jujutsu arts have something similar (in Daito ryu, it's called idori). Being mobile is not a new principle...maybe not being seen as the agressor would be, but I don't see that as a physical principle.

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-29-2006, 09:53 AM   #50
Janet Rosen
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Re: Poll: Does aikido contain any physical principles not present in any other budo?

the question was physical principals. there are just so many ways a body moves through space and interacts with another body; AFAIK none are unique to aikido and most are shared w/ other "internal" arts.

Janet Rosen
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