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Old 06-18-2006, 12:28 PM   #26
Hanna B
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

The most surprising part of the story, to me, is there was a second and a third time. I can imagine a normal kid... well... yes. I can imagine a normal kid under stress trying to kick or slap a parent's spouse, but after having been put to the ground once - in my mind most kids would stop there. The story does not tell, but I believe there is probably something seriously wrong about this twelve years old. Of course I am judging from a fairly short story, I could be very wrong.
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Old 06-18-2006, 02:42 PM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
Chris, this sounded like a step-child but a step-child that was bigger than she was. You are seeming to forget this or choosing to ignore it. Of course it was self-defense. Just because actions are ongoing (i.e. not spontaneous) and the person previously accepted the actions (i.e. previous occurrences), does not waive the person's right to defend themselves. The notion of premeditation does not come into play here. All that matters is that the child intended to attack her, he attacked her and she defended herself appropriately in the given situation. And by the way it sounds, it sounds like she choose to respond appropriately.

What you are advocating is as absurd as saying that an abused spouse does not have the right to defend themselves while they are being beaten even though in previous beatings they did not fight back. Are you trying to say it's not abusive behavior because it's coming from a child? Punching and kicking an adult that the child's father loves is wrong, too, you know. This isn't a school situation where there is a total hands off policy where people (i.e. teachers) are not allowed to touch children, even in self-defense. This isn't physical discipline that going on here. She's talking about defending herself from punches and kicks -- from assault and battery. Punching and kicking loved ones is wrong, period. Is it somehow okay because it's coming from a 12 year old? A 12 year old on the brink of puberty and who is bigger than the woman in question?

I guess you would have preferred that she allow him to continue punching and kicking her? It sure does sound like it. I'm sorry, but it's not "aiki" to be a doormat.
An abused spouse, a conflict between two adults, is very different than a conflict between an adult and a child, no matter how large the child happens to be. Also, a step-child is not your child unless you adopt them - being married to their parent doesn't give you any particular right to physically discipline them. The reason that I discount self defense is that this was clearly an ongoing problem to which she planned a physical response, not a sudden attack. There are better ways to handle twelve year olds, especially one that's not your own child.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-18-2006, 03:10 PM   #28
dps
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Someone has to discipline the kid. If not this women then next time maybe it will be the police.
This women had every right to protect herself from violence. No matter what the reasons behind the kid's behavior, she has to protect herself first and foremost.

Last edited by dps : 06-18-2006 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:44 PM   #29
Carol Shifflett
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

I am the author of the essay in question.

Many appreciative thanks to Anne Marie Giri and George Ledyard and all the others (parents, I suspect) who recognize what was really going on. For those of you who see a Monster Mom, well, your concern is obviously for a sad young boy and I can't object to that. I wish with all my heart that he had gotten that concern from his Real Mom from the very beginning. His story would have been very different.

Meanwhile, look again at Jun Akiyama's intro to this essay. He posted it for good reason.
Quote:
Editor's note: This article was written as a contrasting viewpoint to an ongoing discussion on the Aikido Mailing List regarding subjects such as Hollywood Super Bad Guys, Movie "Martial Arts," Automatic Weapons on the Street, the "killing techniques" found in aikido, and the "impossibility" or "stupidity" of protecting the attacker.
This essay was a response to yet another "Gun War" with endless rants about gun control vs. muzzle velocity vs. stopping power vs. self-defense On The Street .

Caring for your attacker is neither impossible nor stupid. The hard truth is that most attacks you will face in your life will NOT be from ninja drug-lords parachuting out of the sky, it's going to be from people you know and care about. And defending yourself against people you really care about in Real Life, on a daily basis, is much tougher than the fantasy cartoon situations.

Meanwhile, James, you left out the Tae Kwon Do black belt . . .
Quote:
. . . whose fraternity brothers were coming home drunk and throwing punches and kicks at him so he would "show them his moves" -- not realizing that his moves were designed to smash teeth and rip out lungs. His unwillingness to harm was getting him beaten up. "What can I do?" he said. "These are my brothers. I don't want to hurt them!" We showed him tenkan. He stayed.
There's really no difference in attackers here -- except in size, weight and strength.
Quote:
Now we're talking Real Aikido, responsibility, range of options.

Are you going to purposely smash that person you care about? Do everything you can to crush and destroy? or -- Be rendered completely helpless by unwillingness to harm? Or are you going to be effective and real glad that the effectiveness and control come with the option NOT to smash and destroy?
And maybe you might train for that?
The fact is, I cared about Chris, I cared about the law, and I cared about protecting myself. As Anne Marie says, it is NOT Aiki to be a doormat. I am also trained in karate -- and yes I had that option and chose not to use it. It was inappropriate. Aikido was appropriate and gave me the ability to protect both of us.

Did I talk to him? Work with him? Oh yes I did. When he arrived in Virginia he could not read at all. Real Mom didn't care enough to look at his homework or talk to him after school -- apparently too busy with a stream of "boyfriends." I taught him to read by sitting and reading Jules Verne's "Voyage to the Center of the Earth" one paragraph for me, one paragraph for him, Treasure Island, and others, for hours at a time and yes you can go see "Jurassic Park" movie as soon as you read the book. He read the book but came back from the movie disappointed. "They took out all the GOOD parts!" (YESSSSSS!!!!) . . . this from a boy who, at 12, could only read comic books. And why was that? Because someone else hadn't cared enough about this child to be a Real Real Mom. He was treated badly, but not by me.

Real Parents know that you can't negotiate or talk or work with a child who is being abusive -- and successful at it. Hey! He's winning! Why would he stop what works?

As George Ledyard points out, that behavior must stop before anything else can happen -- for all the same reasons that you don't hand the car keys -- or that .45 or Uzi -- to a 5 year old.

I used to tell Chris that a parent's job is to keep their kids safe until their frontal lobes develop. To my mind there wasn't much difference between his treatment of me and discovering his plan to spell out "Happy Halloween!" on the front lawn with the gasoline can and light it on fire. Seemed reasonable to him, and a great Hollywood Special Effect, and yes, I shut that down too.

Discovering his plan ahead of time was a good opening for a lecture on vapor pressure; if it had been later, well, better an ikkyo than the burn unit. Better a koshi than juvenile detention.

At any rate, please remember that this was written as a counter to the notion that an attacker (any attacker!??) deserves whatever he gets. I don't agree.

You do what is appropriate. Nothing more -- and nothing less.

Carol Shifflett
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:26 PM   #30
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
There are better ways to handle twelve year olds, especially one that's not your own child.

Best,

Chris
Chris,
No one is saying that this is a "preferred" method of handling a child. In the case of my sone, he goes to counseling, his Mom and Step Dad are trying all sorts of strategies, all the usual stuff. He has not crossed the line when he rages and so one might say that what we have been doing has been successful. But my son had a friend whose father is under a restraining order for domestic violence against the Mom. Their fifteen year old started getting violent with the Mom. He went o juvenile detention and is now on probation. I can assure you that avoiding getting involved with the State is a priority for everyone involved in these issues.

I find that folks, especially folks who have limited experience with kids get very judgemental on these issues. My ex and I had eight between us and I can tell you I have seen quite a range. People could look at any one of our kids and reach absolutely different conclusions about what type of parents we have been. If you looked at our second oldest daughter you might think we were terrible parents. She ran away twice, had major league eating disorders, got pregnant etc. You could look at the next sister down and conclude that we were clearly exemplarly parents since she was a straight A student and star athlete. Both were raised in the same household... I can tell you definitively that there are problems which you encounter with kids that seem to have no solution. You try your best but sometimes they just don't respond .

I don't know that patriculars in this case, but I can pretty much guarentee you that no step parent "wants" to have this type of interaction with the child. Normally there are various strategies in place at the same time these behaviors are taking place. They may be working but slowly, they may be not working... The bottom line is that no one must put up with physical assault. Period. You don't let a twelve year old put you in a state of fear and you don't let them make you reluctant to enter you own home. Assuming that there were other remedies being put into place, like family counseling, anger management, individual counseling, etc I have no problem with the Step Mom protecting herself, especailly as she didn't hurt the young person at all.

I would ask the key question... where is the father? I can tell you that if one of my sons (I have three) assaulated his step Mom or my ex, she wouldn''t be left to figure out how to handle the situation.
The young man in question would be dealing with me.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-18-2006, 05:03 PM   #31
giriasis
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Carol, thank you for being so articulate. And thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

Quote:
The reason that I discount self defense is that this was clearly an ongoing problem to which she planned a physical response, not a sudden attack.
Chris, I think Carol just very clearly explained the point of her article so I'm not going to go into your other points.

First, this is a violence domestic situation. And yes, domestic violence can easily be wrought by children onto parents and between siblings. And it can be between spouses not just husbands onto wives but wives onto husbands. Step-family is included in this as well. As far as I know, there is no step-family exclusion to domestic violence.

Second, I believe your understanding of what constitutes self-defense is misguided. What really is self-defense? Self-defense is the right of a person to touch another person, without that person's permission, and use reasonable force necessary that they believe and that the situation dictates is reasonably necessary to prevent themselves from being subject to imminent physical harm or threat of imminent physical harm. There is no exception to using self-defense if it is a child who is attacking you. However, the fact that a child, a relative or not, is attacking a person should be taken into consideration as to the amount of reasonable force necessary to defend oneself. For example, if a child was attacking you with knife would allow them to stab you? I don't think so. But, does this mean you have a right to use lethal force, may be not.

The notion of intent (premeditation as you try and term it) for a victim of assault and/ or battery using self-defense is the intent to prevent harm to ones body. It doesn't matter whether this has happened before. It only matters that the person perceived an imminent threat of physical harm to her body. Just because it comes from a 12 year old or any other child, relative or not, is irrelevant to her right to defend herself. It only really comes into play as to the amount of force she needs to use. If she hit the child using her karate training instead then that's referred to as "excessive use of force." Then, she would have had problems and then your point would come more into play here.

The notion of knowing the attack is going to happen because it happened in the past is not relevant at all here in this situation. You still have right to defend yourself even if the attack is not a surprise attack. Just because she thought about how she would respond does not waive her right to defend herself. Often times in domestic situations, the abuse victim will know its coming, but they don't have right to defend themselves until the threat is imminent. You would have a point if she was not responding to an imminent threat and instead just walked up to the child while watching television and just started throwing him around. And you might even have a point that she justified doing this as some form of discipline for his previous acts. However, he was actually throwing punches and kicks at her and she responded to those. This is not discipline. This IS self-defense. She is not punishing the child for punching and kicking her in the past. She acted reasonably under the circumstances to prevent further imminent harm from occurring to her body.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 06-18-2006, 05:47 PM   #32
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
Second, I believe your understanding of what constitutes self-defense is misguided. What really is self-defense? Self-defense is the right of a person to touch another person, without that person's permission, and use reasonable force necessary that they believe and that the situation dictates is reasonably necessary to prevent themselves from being subject to imminent physical harm or threat of imminent physical harm. There is no exception to using self-defense if it is a child who is attacking you. However, the fact that a child, a relative or not, is attacking a person should be taken into consideration as to the amount of reasonable force necessary to defend oneself. For example, if a child was attacking you with knife would allow them to stab you? I don't think so. But, does this mean you have a right to use lethal force, may be not.
My argument is not over whether or not someone has the right to defend themselves when attacked, it is over whether deliberately planning a strategy of physical confrontation is the best approach when dealing with a child in a situation in which the "attack" is clearly anticipated long in advance. I wouldn't think that it is a particularly good approach for dealing with adults, much less children, where a much greater standard of caution is generally expected.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-18-2006, 07:10 PM   #33
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Frankly, I applaud Carol's actions. I cannot think of a better way to handle the situation as described, and my hat is off to her for handling it as well as she did.

Avery
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:08 PM   #34
Lan Powers
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Step-parenting is way hard.
Lan

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Old 06-18-2006, 09:14 PM   #35
giriasis
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
My argument is not over whether or not someone has the right to defend themselves when attacked, it is over whether deliberately planning a strategy of physical confrontation is the best approach when dealing with a child in a situation in which the "attack" is clearly anticipated long in advance. I wouldn't think that it is a particularly good approach for dealing with adults, much less children, where a much greater standard of caution is generally expected.

Best,

Chris
It is the best approach when dealing with aggressive behavior because you go into it with a clear and calm mind and maintaining your psychic center. As a result, you don't allow the situation to escalate but rather help diffuse the situation.

No one is advocating shooting the kid, beating the child, hurting the child, being abusive back to the child. But I am saying that if an aggressive child who is acting out is trying to hurt someone smaller than them, yeah they have the right to use appropriate force to defend themselves. Because, you can't deal with a physical attack until is actually happens. Having a good strategy (ikkyo, perhaps?) as how to deal with his next punch or kick is an excellent way to deal with the situation.

Whenever I get on the mat and practice the effectiveness of my techniques, I'm deliberately planning a strategy of responding to a physical confrontation of a potential attacker regardless of who they might be. Sometimes a real life situation is not a stranger on the street trying to rape me. More likely than not a real life situation for me will come at the hands of my brother, mother, father, step-father, step-mother, neice, nephew, boyfriend, friend's boyfriend, etc. They could be an out of control client. But whenever you enter a potentially dangerous situation, you always go into it with a plan of defense, especially if you know what your dealing with. You just cannot act, until its necessary to act.

Chris, if I may ask. Have you ever been subject to a domestic violence situation? Have you ever known any one in a domestic violence situation? Have you ever had to stand up to an abuser to protect the girlfriend he was trying to abuse? I have to all three. Because, I really don't think that you really are grasping the scenario here otherwise you would not have put the word "attack" into quotes as if there really was not an attack to begin with. I can just see you sitting there thinking, "what do you mean, a 12 year old can't possibly hurt a grown woman?" Yes, I really think if she just continued to do nothing she would have been hurt. I guess you missed the part that he was her size and weighed more than her.

Let's stop blaming the victim, okay? Carol appears to be completely within her rights -- legally and morally -- to roll the boy gently across the rug and then pin him to the ground to no injury as it appears.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 06-18-2006, 09:24 PM   #36
dps
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
My argument is not over whether or not someone has the right to defend themselves when attacked, it is over whether deliberately planning a strategy of physical confrontation is the best approach when dealing with a child in a situation in which the "attack" is clearly anticipated long in advance. I wouldn't think that it is a particularly good approach for dealing with adults, much less children, where a much greater standard of caution is generally expected.

Best,

Chris
It is not like she could avoid the boy, she lived with him in the same house. I bet that if the father did intervene he probably could not be present all the time the step mom and boy were together. The problem with the boy escalated even though the step mom tried other methods. Her final option to stop the physical attack was a thought out plan in which herself and the boy did not get hurt. The boy needs to learn that there are consequences to his behavior. The more severe the behavior the more severe the consequences.
Bravo for her. I hope her actions has help the boy.
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Old 06-18-2006, 09:49 PM   #37
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
I can just see you sitting there thinking, "what do you mean, a 12 year old can't possibly hurt a grown woman?" Yes, I really think if she just continued to do nothing she would have been hurt. I guess you missed the part that he was her size and weighed more than her.
I never said that he couldn't hurt her. What I said was that this was a continuing situation, and not a spur of the moment attack. Given that, there are better ways of handling the situation than getting involved physically with a twelve year old.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-18-2006, 09:55 PM   #38
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
It is not like she could avoid the boy, she lived with him in the same house. I bet that if the father did intervene he probably could not be present all the time the step mom and boy were together.
Yet another argument, IMO, against remarriage while minor children are still in the household.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
The problem with the boy escalated even though the step mom tried other methods. Her final option to stop the physical attack was a thought out plan in which herself and the boy did not get hurt.
Luckily, but what if he had? People forget, but it's easy enough to injured right in the dojo, under controlled circumstances. Morihei Ueshiba injured any number of people by accident, it could happen to anyone. Given that it wasn't even her child (despite active involvement, stepparents have almost no actual parental rights), the risk is quite high.

If you try something like this and it works out, then great, but if some 40 year old came to me and said that they wanted to try this type of approach on a neighborhood 12 year old I would absolutely advise against it.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-18-2006, 10:49 PM   #39
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:


Luckily, but what if he had? People forget, but it's easy enough to injured right in the dojo, under controlled circumstances. Morihei Ueshiba injured any number of people by accident, it could happen to anyone. Given that it wasn't even her child (despite active involvement, stepparents have almost no actual parental rights), the risk is quite high.



Best,

Chris
Since no other approach worked than her alternative was to let the boy continue with his attacks and hurt her?
Have you ever been in a situation such as hers? I have and no amount of counseling, therapy, time outs, positive reinforcements, etc. worked. What did work was a very direct and physical intervention on my part that ended up with me holding the twelve year old boy up against a wall explaining to him that if he ever touched my wife again what I would physically do to him. He never physically bothered my wife again and over time the counseling and me keeping close watch on him changed his behavior dramatically

I would like to read about your own real life experience with a similar situation that this step mom had and how you resolved it.
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Old 06-18-2006, 11:04 PM   #40
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
What I said was that this was a continuing situation, and not a spur of the moment attack. Given that, there are better ways of handling the situation than getting involved physically with a twelve year old.
Right. Had you considered a day-in day-out continuing situation of spur-of-the-moment attacks? -- with power and energy behind them? You know, the sort of thing that allows Aikido in the first place?
There are good and appropriate ways of dealing with almost everything before it happens -- but you deal with a blatant physical attack in a physical manner, wether the kid is 12 or 2 or 22.

Now, practically speaking, are you now or have you ever been a parent or stepparent of an angry dysfunctional 12-13 yr old boy? If not, then I must suggest that your comments, while lovely and surely well-intentioned, are purely theoretical. This here is real Aikido. When you're a really a parent, you don't get to bow out, you don't get to quit.

Believe me or better yet, believe the voices of the many obviously experienced parents and therapists here -- all the theory in the world is NOTHING like the Real Thing.

Cheers!
Carol Shifflett
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Old 06-18-2006, 11:26 PM   #41
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Carol Shifflett wrote:

all the theory in the world is NOTHING like the Real Thing.

Cheers!
Carol Shifflett
Very well said Carol
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Old 06-18-2006, 11:43 PM   #42
Chris Li
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Since no other approach worked than her alternative was to let the boy continue with his attacks and hurt her?
Have you ever been in a situation such as hers? I have and no amount of counseling, therapy, time outs, positive reinforcements, etc. worked. What did work was a very direct and physical intervention on my part that ended up with me holding the twelve year old boy up against a wall explaining to him that if he ever touched my wife again what I would physically do to him. He never physically bothered my wife again and over time the counseling and me keeping close watch on him changed his behavior dramatically
And where was the father in this case, and why didn't he intervene in this manner? I also note that you didn't actually engage the child physically - there's quite a difference between holding and threatening and actually applying a throwing technique.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-18-2006, 11:53 PM   #43
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I also note that you didn't actually engage the child physically - there's quite a difference between holding and threatening and actually applying a throwing technique.

Best,

Chris
I said,
"I bet that if the father did intervene he probably could not be present all the time the step mom and boy were together."

In Carol's situation the boy would only be physical when dad was not around. In my case at, I was able to be at home to deal with the situation.


You weren't there. As I said, " ended up with me holding the twelve year old boy up against a wall explaining to him that if he ever touched my wife again what I would physically do to him."

What is your experience?

Last edited by dps : 06-18-2006 at 11:57 PM.

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Old 06-18-2006, 11:53 PM   #44
Chris Li
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Carol Shifflett wrote:
Believe me or better yet, believe the voices of the many obviously experienced parents and therapists here -- all the theory in the world is NOTHING like the Real Thing.

Cheers!
Carol Shifflett
I've been a stepchild, and I've been (and am) a parent, all of which is beside the point because I don't need to get shot in the foot to know that I wouldn't enjoy the experience. Have an opinion on Iraq? How can you possibly have an opinion for or against without having been there - but millions of people obviously do, and not having been there doesn't diminish the validity of their (pro or con) opinions.

I could bring up long lists of experienced parents and therapists who would be of the opinion that no non-adoptive parent has any business physically disciplining a stepchild - would you believe them? Maybe we could compare lists, but so far as I know there's really no general agreement on this issue.

Anyway, my experience with children is that it's generally a bad idea to physically engage with a 12 year old, even more so if it's not actually your 12 year old. I'm glad that things worked out for you, but as I pointed out earlier, the risks are also great, and if someone training with me were thinking about such an approach I would recommend against it very strongly.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-19-2006, 12:02 AM   #45
Chris Li
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
I said,
"I bet that if the father did intervene he probably could not be present all the time the step mom and boy were together."

In Carol's situation the boy would only be physical when dad was not around. In my case at, I was able to be at home to deal with the situation.
By "where was the father" I meant generally speaking, not at any one particular time, since this was obviously a situation that continued over a certain time period.


Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
You weren't there. As I said, " ended up with me holding the twelve year old boy up against a wall explaining to him that if he ever touched my wife again what I would physically do to him."

What is your experience?
You can see my other posting about the last part. As to the first, you mean that you threw him around first and then finished by holding him up to the wall? I can't say if I would advocate that or not without knowing more about the situation, but as above, I don't think that I'd recommend it as a planned response to a continuing situation applied on a child that isn't your own.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-19-2006, 12:15 AM   #46
Michael Hackett
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

From what I've been reading, it doesn't seem that Carol was trying to discipline him - that is change his behavior through a system of punishment, but rather to protect herself from harm. If he learned a valuable lesson, so much the better. I've been called to far too many homes where violence was acted out by out of control kids, some younger and some older. Their attacks can be quite frightening, dangerous and injurious. Sorry, kumbaya has its place around the campfire, but not as a response to a physical attack. She did the right thing.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 06-19-2006, 12:24 AM   #47
dps
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I don't need to get shot in the foot to know that I wouldn't enjoy the experience.
If you shot yourself in the foot you know how other people who have been shot in the foot feel. Better yet shoot yourself in the foot everyday and you would know how people who get shot in the foot everyday actually feel.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 06-19-2006, 12:41 AM   #48
Chris Li
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
If you shot yourself in the foot you know how other people who have been shot in the foot feel. Better yet shoot yourself in the foot everyday and you would know how people who get shot in the foot everyday actually feel.
I could just as easily have said that any comments made by people who haven't been stepchildren (as I have) are invalid because they don't know how those people actually feel. But I haven't. Experience, of course, is a great thing, but it isn't the only thing, and I feel that it is counter-productive when you try to counter an argument by arguing against the presenter of that argument rather than dealing with the argument itself.

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Chris

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Old 06-19-2006, 12:49 AM   #49
Chris Li
 
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote:
From what I've been reading, it doesn't seem that Carol was trying to discipline him - that is change his behavior through a system of punishment, but rather to protect herself from harm. If he learned a valuable lesson, so much the better. I've been called to far too many homes where violence was acted out by out of control kids, some younger and some older. Their attacks can be quite frightening, dangerous and injurious. Sorry, kumbaya has its place around the campfire, but not as a response to a physical attack. She did the right thing.
It's not about kumbaya, if a twelve year old walked up to you and suddenly attacked, and you managed to subdue them without physical injury then I would applaud your performance. A planned physical response to a continuing situation, on the other hand, is a different situation.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-19-2006, 01:21 AM   #50
Hanna B
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Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Carol, I appreciate that you come here and told a little more background. A big problem with this discussion is the text snippeted out of context; just a link to the article instead would have made people read it in context including Jun's comment.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
And where was the father in this case, and why didn't he intervene in this manner?
IMO that was explained in the original article: doing the "Wait until your father comes home" every time just did not work. I.e. the kid choose to do this when the father was not at home, and dealing with it afterwards when he did come home for some reason did not have effect. That it did not work could be because the father did not manage (not all pops are perfect!) or because the child was a very troublesome one (Carol has already described the kid as "dysfunctional"). Besides, obviously Carol had taken on a parenting role here.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
A planned physical response to a continuing situation, on the other hand, is a different situation.
In a way I agree with you, but regarding truly dysfunctional kids... maybe one has to be satisfied if things works somewhat OK. In this case maybe it means no one gets hurt and the family relations are somewhat restored, meaning the kid will not become the "boss". That would truly hurt him, in the long run.

With all due respect Chris, it sounds like you are arguing more concerning your own feelings regarding stepfamilies than this actual case. It seems to me your main arguments are against the fact that a step mom acted as bravely as if she was the mother. You are entitled to your opinion that divorced people with children should not remarry, i.e. a stepfamily is in itself something evil. Sure being a step parent is hard but your opinion does not match my view of the world and most of the stepfamilies I have seen... IMHO quite a bit of the "family evil" takes place in non-step families as well.

Last edited by Hanna B : 06-19-2006 at 01:27 AM.
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