Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-17-2006, 06:54 PM   #1
TigerJK
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 23
Offline
Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

The following was on this very website, here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/general/shifflett1.html

Quote:
Abusive Children
When my husband's 12-year old son came to visit us he took to hitting me, slapping me, kicking me at every opportunity. When I spoke to him, he "wasn't doing anything" or he was "just playing." Understandable -- he loves his Mom and loves his Dad and tho they'd already been divorced for 7 years when we met, it's clear to a kid that if only this strange other person who he doesn't know at all would just GO AWAY, then Mom and Dad could get back together again. Wrong -- but understandable. Problem was, the "kid" was as big as me and weighed more. And being abusive. What am I to do? Yell "just wait til your father gets home!!" at every incident? Pull out my handy .45 or Uzi and blow him away? Hmmmmm. Time for some Real Life Aikido! The next punch got him flipped onto the couch. The next grab got him rolled gently across the rug and the next kick got him a firm but authoritative face-plant. Any combination of these got him thoroughly out of breath (as he's also fighting gravity) but he was allowed to live.
And I did not get arrested for murder.
Doesn't anyone else find this article disturbing?

Now some of you would say this is a good example of defense and since the kids was just as big and being unreasonable, so this was simply a good example of Aikido not hurting anyone but still used for defense.

Well I say that this is a very superficial and disturbing point of view. The thing is, this action and thinking is very "un-aiki" in and of itself. Beyond defending yourself without hurting your opponent, doesn't anyone else find it odd that the writer (whoever she is) immediately went to the conclusion of confrontation, and somehow felt like she was being moral by tossing the kid around instead of breaking him?

Quote:
What am I to do? Yell "just wait til your father gets home!!" at every incident? Pull out my handy .45 or Uzi and blow him away? Hmmmmm. Time for some Real Life Aikido!
Notice she seems to be trapped in this mentality of "confrontation." She acts as if these acts are the only possible solutions. The yelling at him, shooting him, and even using "aikido" techniques on him are forms of confrontation. She never once even mentions giving any thought to making peace with him mentally, emotionally, verbally, or in an otherwise peaceful manner. And isn't that our way? Avoiding conflicts before resolving them? Peace and Harmony?

If you say something such as "she didn't hurt him and still defended herself" - to those I ask, do you realize the difference between Aikido and Jujutsu?

She may have harmonized the attacker physically, but mentally, emotionally, and spiritually she is no different from a guy kicking a mentally/emotionally disturbed and weaker (not in a sense of weight and muscle, but the fact hedidn't learn Aikido) kid and walking away. If she knows that the kid must obviously feel pain and issues from the new relationship (she states clear knowledge of this) then why not try to help him resolve the pain and issues, and dissipate the source of the violence, instead of giving a show that she can't be messed with? I feel really sorry for the kid who was both the attacker and the victim in this.

Some may think she was justified because the kid attacked first - those who say that fail to see the true nature of our aiki way.

Clearly this anecdote was not an example of "Real Life Aikido" as the title stated. This was just a damage-minimal physical technique used to get a 12 year old to back off, warranting serious questions such as "Is training in aikido a right or privelage?"

Last edited by TigerJK : 06-17-2006 at 07:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 07:11 PM   #2
TigerJK
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

It is particularly disturbing that not seriously injuring the child isn't already assumed as part of her "Aikido," but she acts as if this is some undeserved privelage she has granted out of her supreme grace:
Quote:
Any combination of these got him thoroughly out of breath (as he's also fighting gravity) but he was allowed to live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 07:20 PM   #3
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

[quote]Doesn't anyone else find this article disturbing?

Well I say that this is a very superficial and disturbing point of view. The thing is, this action and thinking is very "un-aiki" in and of itself. Beyond defending yourself without hurting your opponent, doesn't anyone else find it odd that the writer (whoever she is) immediately went to the conclusion of confrontation, and somehow felt like she was being moral by tossing the kid around instead of breaking him?quote]

I don't think so. I've found that you can't tell someone their wrong. They have to come to the conclusions themselves. Best one can do is guide them along that path.
As well, you can't expect everyone to be enlightened for lack of a better term. You need to start "the path to peace" with very tiny steps. When your hurt it's natural to want to hurt back. Ever stub your toe and you take it out on someone around you?
I've had people wrong me and I wanted to smash them good. It's a learned behavior that you can't just switch off. Regardless of her feelings I think it's important to point out that she DIDN'T smash him. Sounds like she's just starting off baby steps.

Quote:
She never once even mentions givign any thought to making peace with him mentally, emotionally, verbally, or in an otherwise peaceful manner. And isn't that our way?
I can't judge her. She doesn't sound perfect but how many of us are? Sounds like shes on the right path.

Quote:
Avoiding conflicts before resolving them? Peace and Harmony?
Someone offered me a good quote on here from O Sensei- Sometimes the enemy will not allow you to retreat.

I think it's important not too get too far ahead of ourselves. This is a woman dealing with a kid/teenager whatever who is acting out. Sometimes you gotta put the fear of god (for lack of a better phrase) into bad kids, simple as that. Not saying you have to pound them or even hurt them but you need to put a stop to them testing your boundries. Sometimes smiling holding hands and talking won't work. That can come after.

Quote:
spiritually she is not different than a guy kicking a homeless man and walking away.
Have to disagree.

Quote:
I feel really sorry for the kid who was both the attacker and the victim in this.
I'm somewhat uncomfortable with this. While I applaud your compassion this statement reminds me of criminals who break into someones house, get hurt and turn around and SUE the home owner. Or someone who chooses to drink at a party, drive home, get into a car accident and then sue the party host.

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 06-17-2006 at 07:23 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 07:23 PM   #4
TigerJK
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Sometimes the enemy will not allow you to retreat..
How do you know until you try?

Better yet, why approach him as an enemy?

Isn't he a potential son-in-law? The issue of divorce is also at play here but I will get into that later.

And for now, the fear of God? Clearly she just wanted the kid to fear her.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 07:28 PM   #5
TigerJK
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
I don't think so. I've found that you can't tell someone their wrong. They have to come to the conclusions themselves.
I hate to disagree with you, but I have to say I feel this is very un-aiki as well.

Instead of directly telling someone they are wrong (the social equivalent of tackling an attacker straight and head on) why not ask the child, "What's wrong?", and instead console him, show him understanding, say she wants to be friends, and shows sympathy for his pain (the social equivalent of irimi - entering energy) and slowly gain trust, then try create friendship where there was once violence (redirection of force).

Also, she fails to realize the importance of both parents to the child. Perhaps she can say that she is not here to replace his mother, and maybe even help the kid do something for his real mother. Even non-aikidoka do things like this! How can we as aikidoka say we promote harmony and peace any more than the common individual when we seem condone the use of our techniques for such "first resort" use? Techniques are the last resort! We in the aikido community must work this out in our minds and not send any mixed messages to those who see us as representatives of our art.

Last edited by TigerJK : 06-17-2006 at 07:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 07:45 PM   #6
TigerJK
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
James Ko wrote:
I hate to disagree with you, but I have to say I feel this is very un-aiki as well.

Instead of directly telling someone they are wrong (the social equivalent of tackling an attacker straight and head on) why not ask the child, "What's wrong?", and instead console him, show him understanding, say she wants to be friends, and shows sympathy for his pain (the social equivalent of irimi - entering energy) and slowly gain trust, then try create friendship where there was once violence (redirection of force).

Also, she fails to realize the importance of both parents to the child. Perhaps she can say that she is not here to replace his mother, and maybe even help the kid do something for his real mother. Even non-aikidoka do things like this! How can we as aikidoka say we promote harmony and peace any more than the common individual when we seem condone the use of our techniques for such "first resort" use? Techniques are the last resort! We in the aikido community must work this out in our minds and not send any mixed messages to those who see us as representatives of our art.
P.S. I know the apparent self-contradiction. I say telling someone they are wrong is bad, and yet I seem to do this to you here in this post.

Well I hope that when we discuss here, we are not speaking as harmonized enemies, but "opposed brothers" if you will. I speak you to as a friend, which requires complete honesty, rather than the indirect approach I would use against someone I oppose.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 07:48 PM   #7
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
How do you know until you try?

Better yet, why approach him as an enemy?

Isn't he a potential son-in-law? The issue of divorce is also at play here but I will get into that later.
Of course my friend. Just a wide example and my fledging attempt at using quotes from o sensei

Obviously this kid is not an enemy. Hindsight is 20/20, always. I just feel that sometimes, especially with teenagers, you need to ensure they realize you are the boss.

Quote:
And for now, the fear of God? Clearly she just wanted the kid to fear her.
Maybe, maybe not. I can't say what she was thinking or feeling. Maybe she's in uncharted waters herself and doesn't know the best recourse. I won't fault her for making a mistake.

Quote:
Instead of directly telling someone they are wrong (the social equivalent of tackling an attacker straight and head on) why not ask the child, "What's wrong?", and instead console him, show him understanding, say she wants to be friends, and shows sympathy for his pain (the social equivalent of irimi - entering energy) and slowly gain trust, then try create friendship where there was once violence (redirection of force).
Thats a great way to approach the situation. I've begin approaching arguments this way myself. I think in the fore mentioned situation it would work great so long as the kid isn't physically threatening her. To me her physical safety takes precedence.

Quote:
I hate to use you as an example, but I have to say I feel this is very un-aiki as well.

Instead of directly telling someone they are wrong (the social equivalent of tackling an attacker straight and head on) why not ask the child, "What's wrong?", and instead console him, show him understanding, say she wants to be friends, and shows sympathy for his pain (the social equivalent of irimi - entering energy) and slowly gain trust, then try create freindship where there was once violence (redirection of force).
Mmmmm, I'm a little confused
It sounds like your actually agreeing with me according to your paragraph.
She can't tell the kid he is wrong because he won't listen. She needs to figure out how she can guide him to a spot where he realizes he is wrong for his actions himself, which is basically what you outlined. No?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 08:19 PM   #8
Tharis
Dojo: Chicago Aikikai
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

I think it may be very difficult to convince someone to have an open, emotionally revealing conversation when they're trying to physically abuse you, especially from a position of relative physical parity. Sounds she needed to find a way past the physical confrontation (irimi) before she could start turning him around (tenkan).

You can't do aikido unless you are in a position of martial superiority; you have to be in control of the situation. In this case, I think that includes first making it VERY clear to the troubled youth that he wasn't going to physically intimidate her. Given the means she had of doing this, I think aikido, yes, physicaly aikido, is about as well as could be done under the circumstances. Once the child realizes in his rage that this behavior isn't going to help his situation, then they can start talking about alternatives and get at the underlyling issues.

In this situation, you can't negotiate from a position of weakness, IMHO.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 08:30 PM   #9
TigerJK
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
It sounds like your actually agreeing with me according to your paragraph.
She can't tell the kid he is wrong because he won't listen. She needs to figure out how she can guide him to a spot where he realizes he is wrong for his actions himself, which is basically what you outlined. No?

Well my friend, it looks like we have the same logic and yet a different conclusion.

When the abuse first started I think she should have imediately set up a meeting with the father (and possibly even the mother depending on her siutation) and then the discussion would be controlled, I doubt the kid would attack physically in this situation, and even if he does, the dad could handle it. Having the dad there would be "atemi" I guess.

This would create a good situation in which to have the above-mentioned talk and counseling session, as it were.


On the other hand, she did say she felt physically hurt by a strong kid and guiding him physically to realize fighting would solve nothing does indeed provide a situation for the kid to reconsider his physical attacks on his own.

I was just disturbed in that she seemed to be very unsympathetic to the child and even proud that she resorted to techniques not because she wanted to guide him to the realization of the pointlessness of violence, but because:
Quote:
Problem was, the "kid" was as big as me and weighed more.
What does that mean if the kid was only 50 pounds? Would she then just ignore this kid's outbursts as signs of insecurity? And she seemed proud of not seriously hurting him
Quote:
"he was allowed to live. And I did not get arrested for murder."
which also comes off as both "high and mighty" and self-righteous. Had her attitude seemed more humble, or at the least actively concerned for the child's emotions (planning on talking to him when he's cooled off), I might agree with her actions.

But I'm glad we can have this dialogue together as brethren in aikido

Last edited by TigerJK : 06-17-2006 at 08:34 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 08:59 PM   #10
Guilty Spark
 
Guilty Spark's Avatar
Location: Flordia
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 300
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
I was just disturbed in that she seemed to be very unsympathetic to the child and even proud that she resorted to techniques not because she wanted to guide him to the realization of the pointlessness of violence, but because Problem was, the "kid" was as big as me and weighed more.
think she was proud that her aikido worked against a male who was her size and likely more muscular.
I know aikido teaches us to be humble and such but I don't feel there is anything wrong with being proud of your art or having your aikido work. I know when someone grabbed me from behind and I dropped down putting him in sonkajo (I'm sure that's spelt wrong!) I was VERY happy that it worked. I acted like it was no big deal but I felt DAMN that works!

I think in aikido, where there is a huge "that crap won't work in a real situation" having your techniques work gives someone a HUGE confidence boost. Maybe it was a little superficial or prideful of her but I can deffinatly see where she is comming from.

I do see your point of view though in that if she isn't careful she can go down the wrong path and end up doing good things for the wrong reasons.

It's fairly easy to look at a situation like this after the fact and point out all the errors. I would guess the same way you can point out how someones aikido techniques are wrong after they've done it. I'm all for discussing what someone could have done better (thats how we learn) but I just don't like critisizing them for what decisions they made "at the moment".
She does seem to have a bit of an attitude but I think that can be chalked up to heat of the moment/inexperience.

Quote:
But I'm glad we can have this dialogue together as brethren in aikido
Naturally
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 09:14 PM   #11
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

James: How do you define aiki-like? Is she supposed to stand there and let the kid physically abuse her? Yes, care must be taken, however, this kid has emotional problems and needs mental health care. He also needs to know that there are consequences to his behavior. I don't think aiki-like is intended to mean standing there and getting your ass kicked. I'm sorry, but I think the woman has a right to defend herself when attacked or abused by anyone. By controlling him and not injuring him she let him know she was not going to put up with his abuse, i.e., she drew the line in the sand. He now has the choice to get his behavior under control or risk escalation of her self defense. She does need to go one step further and get the father involved and mental health care specialists. Otherwise, this kid is going to be a handful.

We are raising a bunch of kids these days who think they can do whatever they want without responsibility or consequences to their behavior (I'm sure some will disagree with me on this-so be it). I'm sorry but I don't agree with that strategy. If I had smacked my mother or for that matter step mother around my dad would have beat my ass royally. He would have never tolerated that level of disrespect.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 09:22 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
James Ko wrote:
The following was on this very website, here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/general/shifflett1.html



Doesn't anyone else find this article disturbing?

Now some of you would say this is a good example of defense and since the kids was just as big and being unreasonable, so this was simply a good example of Aikido not hurting anyone but still used for defense.

Well I say that this is a very superficial and disturbing point of view. The thing is, this action and thinking is very "un-aiki" in and of itself. Beyond defending yourself without hurting your opponent, doesn't anyone else find it odd that the writer (whoever she is) immediately went to the conclusion of confrontation, and somehow felt like she was being moral by tossing the kid around instead of breaking him?



Notice she seems to be trapped in this mentality of "confrontation." She acts as if these acts are the only possible solutions. The yelling at him, shooting him, and even using "aikido" techniques on him are forms of confrontation. She never once even mentions giving any thought to making peace with him mentally, emotionally, verbally, or in an otherwise peaceful manner. And isn't that our way? Avoiding conflicts before resolving them? Peace and Harmony?

If you say something such as "she didn't hurt him and still defended herself" - to those I ask, do you realize the difference between Aikido and Jujutsu?

She may have harmonized the attacker physically, but mentally, emotionally, and spiritually she is no different from a guy kicking a mentally/emotionally disturbed and weaker (not in a sense of weight and muscle, but the fact hedidn't learn Aikido) kid and walking away. If she knows that the kid must obviously feel pain and issues from the new relationship (she states clear knowledge of this) then why not try to help him resolve the pain and issues, and dissipate the source of the violence, instead of giving a show that she can't be messed with? I feel really sorry for the kid who was both the attacker and the victim in this.

Some may think she was justified because the kid attacked first - those who say that fail to see the true nature of our aiki way.

Clearly this anecdote was not an example of "Real Life Aikido" as the title stated. This was just a damage-minimal physical technique used to get a 12 year old to back off, warranting serious questions such as "Is training in aikido a right or privelage?"
This is way too little info to decide anything. But I think it is ridiculous to expect this woman to put up with physical abuse. Period.

You want to try the love and understanding approach, you do it after the young man understands that his physical aggression has consequences. When he realizes that the physical aggression approach isn't going to have positive outcome, that's the time to be offering to talk, to listen, and to be compassionate.

This got posted under the "Spiritual" section so I am assuming that some of you think that this is some sort of spiritual issue. What ever happened to the anti-violence against women crowd? I've done restraint training for both public and private schools locally and for a juvenile corrections aganecy in San Jose. You have sixth grade males who outweigh their female teachers or guards, They are raging, many with perfectly good reasons, and the are dangerous.

No one, especially a woman, has to put up with physical violence. Period. My ex is a karate yudansha and also has some Aikido experience. My fifteen year old is running his stuff. Some of it has to do with the divorce. He does the teenage raging thing periodically. If he were to get physically abusive I would expect her to knock him flat. I'd back her 100%. Of course then she'd be dealing with CPS and a host of social workers and all sorts of folks who would question why a hundred pound female might need to defend herslef against a 140 lb 15 yr old who can bench press more than she weighs.

By the time she had convinced the social service people that she wasn't abusing the poor child, we'd have the juvenile authorities involved because we'd be talking about assualt now. I know I'd be really happy if he went to juvie...

She effectively defended herself. Did it without hurting the poor dear. Demonstrated to him that attacking women has potential consequences which he might not like (a lesson more people could do with). No CPS, no juvenile authorities... Now is the time for family therapy, anger mangement, and all the love and affection they can dish out to the kid. But not when he is being assualtive, sorry.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 10:47 PM   #13
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,210
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

After reading the article itself, particularly the scenario above the one in question, I don't think she was necessarily being confrontational. I think she used extream examples, but that was, I think, likely based on the larger issue of potentially violent situations in general. I seriously doubt she was considering the idea of using a gun on a 12 year old who seems to be acting out his resentment of her, which she seems to sympathize with a little. Perhaps she didn't explain that very well though.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 10:58 PM   #14
sullivanw
Dojo: Portland Aikikai
Location: Portland
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 82
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Well, the writer of the original article did say that she tried talking to him, but he didn't respond. So, what form was this 'talking'? Maybe as minor as, "Don't hurt me", but maybe it was more of an attempt to truly communicate about the deeper issues behind the kid's aggression. In either case, she at least stopped the violence, which was hopefully a slap in the face to the kid that opened up some channels of communication.

I think we've all been in situations where someone is beyond talking to, and we either have to remove ourselves or somehow change the context of the interaction. So, were her actions moral? I don't think we can tell from what we can glean from the article. But I'm leaning toward moral, because the writer stopped the violence and the child was not harmed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 11:01 PM   #15
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,210
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Now is the time for family therapy, anger mangement, and all the love and affection they can dish out to the kid. But not when he is being assualtive, sorry.
I agree. If someone, even a child (and especially a child who has the power to do damage), attacks, you must handle the physical situation directly. How one handles the situation is up to the individual: an Aikidoka seeks actions which do no harm, but which still handle the situation. If there's a physical componant, I say address that componant. Many of us feel attacks are intrinsically flawed. How do you teach that? One way is through demonstration.
Whether she was acting with conflict in her mind isn't something we can be sure of. I think the fact that such extream counter examples were described made it seem she was herself acting/thinking in an extream manner, but I can see how one might try to establish a logical framework by using two extreams: killing; and life-affirming. I know I've often had that habbit in the past, at least, and it has confused many people I've spoken with.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 11:20 PM   #16
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,224
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

It is obvious from the original (quoted) post that this was a continuing problem, not a spontaneous attack which required an immediate defense, which rules out (for me) the "self-defense" justification.

Of course, this is a perfect example of why people with minor children ought not to remarry until the children are older, but that's just me. In any case, I don't think that laying your hands (no matter how gentle your intentions are) on somebody else's 12 year old is advisable in any circumstances unless it is absolutely unavoidable. I would think that it is actually illegal in most states. She's an adult, she ought to have handled it like one.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 11:29 PM   #17
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,188
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

I can understand where a 12 year old kid, a product of a broken home, charged with changing hormones might be coming from. I can appreciate his rage and his helpless feelings of personal powerlessness. I get it.

I also understand that no one should expect to be treated like a punching bag.

I'll bet he understands now that his new step-mom won't be treated like one for sure. Good for her! Good that she understands his pain and cares, but even better that she won't tolerate pain, violence and injury from this poor little darling.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2006, 11:38 PM   #18
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

The story is short - it is focusing on the point the writer wanted to make, leaving lots of other things out.

Quote:
James Ko wrote:
She never once even mentions giving any thought to making peace with him mentally, emotionally, verbally, or in an otherwise peaceful manner. And isn't that our way? Avoiding conflicts before resolving them? Peace and Harmony?
How do you know she did not try, but did not think this was the scope of the article so she did not include it there? Personally, I can not believe that she did not try to talk to the kid. The story says she tried but the kid responded he was just playing. We do not know the extent of events before she used aikido techniques to stop him. As George Ledyard already said, we have too little information.

Quote:
James Ko wrote:
Clearly this anecdote was not an example of "Real Life Aikido" as the title stated. This was just a damage-minimal physical technique used to get a 12 year old to back off
and that is not real life aikido - you know that as a fact? Is there a clearcut definition of real life aikido then, and you have it? Ah, I see. It is this part.

Quote:
James Ko wrote:
Avoiding conflicts before resolving them? Peace and Harmony?
How extremely judgemental. Maybe that is the ideal, but if someone is confronting you maybe sometimes confrontation is unavoidable. Few people are perfect, aikido practitioners and non-aikido practitioners alike.

The ones who gave me that peace and harmony-shit were those who abused me. I find your post much more disturbing than the article, and I throw up in your general direction.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
This got posted under the "Spiritual" section so I am assuming that some of you think that this is some sort of spiritual issue.
I also find that weird. Apply spiritual aspects on violent situations you were in yourself, fine! but please, not on other folks' stories of physical abuse.

Last edited by Hanna B : 06-17-2006 at 11:52 PM. Reason: adding a little
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2006, 02:25 AM   #19
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,277
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
James Ko wrote:
The following was on this very website, here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/general/shifflett1.html



Doesn't anyone else find this article disturbing?

(No.)

Now some of you would say this is a good example of defense and since the kids was just as big and being unreasonable, so this was simply a good example of Aikido not hurting anyone but still used for defense.

(Yes.)

Well I say that this is a very superficial and disturbing point of view. The thing is, this action and thinking is very "un-aiki" in and of itself. Beyond defending yourself without hurting your opponent, doesn't anyone else find it odd that the writer (whoever she is) immediately went to the conclusion of confrontation, and somehow felt like she was being moral by tossing the kid around instead of breaking him?

(No.)



Notice she seems to be trapped in this mentality of "confrontation." She acts as if these acts are the only possible solutions. The yelling at him, shooting him, and even using "aikido" techniques on him are forms of confrontation. She never once even mentions giving any thought to making peace with him mentally, emotionally, verbally, or in an otherwise peaceful manner. And isn't that our way? Avoiding conflicts before resolving them? Peace and Harmony?

(The best way to avoid conflicts and to live in peace and harmony with someone who assaults you is to let know you can defend yourself and hurt them if neccessay.)





If you say something such as "she didn't hurt him and still defended herself" - to those I ask, do you realize the difference between Aikido and Jujutsu?


(Definition of Jujutsu: a method of self-defense without weapons that was developed in China and Japan; holds and blows are supplemented by clever use of the attacker's own weight and strength)

(Definition of Aikido: The word "aikido" is made up of three Japanese characters: AI - harmony, KI - spirit, mind, or universal energy, DO - the Way. Thus aikido is "the Way of Harmony with Universal Energy." However, AIKI may also be interpreted as "accommodation to circumstances.)


She may have harmonized the attacker physically, but mentally, emotionally, and spiritually she is no different from a guy kicking a mentally/emotionally disturbed and weaker (not in a sense of weight and muscle, but the fact hedidn't learn Aikido) kid and walking away. If she knows that the kid must obviously feel pain and issues from the new relationship (she states clear knowledge of this) then why not try to help him resolve the pain and issues, and dissipate the source of the violence, instead of giving a show that she can't be messed with? I feel really sorry for the kid who was both the attacker and the victim in this.


(She moved his mind to a place where he would respect her.)


Some may think she was justified because the kid attacked first - those who say that fail to see the true nature of our aiki way.

(Definition Aiki: United spirit. The spiritual principle of destroying an adversary's will to fight, or the physical act of dominating an adversary by harmonizing with his force and redirecting it. (Japanese))



Clearly this anecdote was not an example of "Real Life Aikido" as the title stated. This was just a damage-minimal physical technique used to get a 12 year old to back off, warranting serious questions such as "Is training in aikido a right or privelage?"
Training in Aikido is a choice. If her training had been in Karate, the kid may have been sent to the hospital and she may have been sent to jail.

Last edited by dps : 06-18-2006 at 02:33 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2006, 07:32 AM   #20
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

I think someone needs to seriously re-read this article without such a judgmental attitude, and you would notice that she was not advocating hurting the child, but using her aikido to defend herself against someone bigger and stronger than her.

When she said:
Quote:
What am I to do? Yell "just wait til your father gets home!!" at every incident? Pull out my handy .45 or Uzi and blow him away?
She was being sarcastic. The first option would to too passive and the second one too aggressive. She stating too extremes that both of which are not good alternatives. Instead she chose to apply aikido to a real life situation.

You see here point wasn't that you should use a uzi on a 12 year old, but that her point was when people go around talking about "Real Life Situations" they don't normally think about controlling an out of control and aggressive child. No, most people think about brawls, UFC fights, stranger attacks, but they don't think about domestic violence situations. Here, I think she handled the situation perfectly by controlling her aggression and not allowing him to continue abusing her. In the end she ended up controlling the situation and defending herself.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2006, 07:55 AM   #21
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,333
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

I have used aikido on my daughter in a conflict situation....no one got hurt....my anger went away as I connected with my center and gently put her down on the ground. She never touched me aggressivly again. She felt the power and got the message.

You can't create peace from a victim position.


James:

I ask you this because of your extreme judgement.
Have you walked a day in her shoes?
Do you know how you would react in a similar experience?

Mary
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2006, 08:00 AM   #22
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,210
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
It is obvious from the original (quoted) post that this was a continuing problem, not a spontaneous attack which required an immediate defense, which rules out (for me) the "self-defense" justification.
I don't think self-defense was given as a justification. The idea was to demonstrate why hitting people isn't a good way of acting without harming the child.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
In any case, I don't think that laying your hands (no matter how gentle your intentions are) on somebody else's 12 year old is advisable in any circumstances unless it is absolutely unavoidable. I would think that it is actually illegal in most states. She's an adult, she ought to have handled it like one.
I don't think we can judge whether or not she handled it "like an adult" based on the information. Laying your hands on someone works both ways. If a child tries to hit me, I certainly won't let him. If I'm related to said child, I'd feel even more comfortable responding. If a punch comes at me, I'll probably have to make contact to redirect it.
You might be correct and the woman didn't behave as well as she could or should have, I don't know. However, as far as "laying hands on someone," in and of itself, I'm not going to let anyone hit me, particularly after having already asked the person to stop.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2006, 10:21 AM   #23
Tomas Grana
Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkai Ottawa
Location: Ottawa, ON
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 11
Canada
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

[quote=James Ko]I hate to disagree with you, but I have to say I feel this is very un-aiki as well.

Really? I thought that if someone wanted to hurt me, and I blended with them, redirected their energy without hurting them and convinced them that violence was not an option, that was about as "aiki" as it got.

Let's extrapolate to an extreme example: say you were a high school teacher and embarrassed or humiliated one of your students during class by making him feel stupid. You didn't mean to cause him harm, but you did and you understand why he's hurt. If he decided to take out his pain/frustration/anger on you after class with a stiletto, when he charged at you, would you stand there telling him you understand his pain/frustration/anger, telling him you want to be his friend? I don't think anyone with a right mind can say that disarming that kid at that time, shouldn't be priority #1. Hopefully you do that with as little harm to him as possible. That depends on your skill and nervousness at the time. After that, you can talk about it, if he lets you. How is this other situation that much different, in principle?

I'm afraid that some aikidoists take the whole "peace love and harmony" thing too far. Don't get me wrong, I practice Aikido to avoid conflict, but I'm aware that sometimes, I might have to deal with it.

James, don't forget that Aikido is still a martial art. A particularly compassionate, altruistic one, but martial nonetheless. We can quote O-sensei about blending, and universal energy, etc. all day long, but he also said stuff like "to do Ikkyo, first you must smash your opponent's face".

Last edited by Tomas Grana : 06-18-2006 at 10:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2006, 10:25 AM   #24
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,224
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I don't think self-defense was given as a justification. The idea was to demonstrate why hitting people isn't a good way of acting without harming the child.
Not in the original article, but a number of people have cited it, or variations of it, as a justification.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I don't think we can judge whether or not she handled it "like an adult" based on the information. Laying your hands on someone works both ways. If a child tries to hit me, I certainly won't let him. If I'm related to said child, I'd feel even more comfortable responding. If a punch comes at me, I'll probably have to make contact to redirect it.
You might be correct and the woman didn't behave as well as she could or should have, I don't know. However, as far as "laying hands on someone," in and of itself, I'm not going to let anyone hit me, particularly after having already asked the person to stop.
If a child attempts to hit me I probably will attempt to prevent that - but this wasn't a spontaneous occurrence, it was an ongoing situation. I really question the wisdom of a premeditated plan to physically discipline a child not your own.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2006, 12:08 PM   #25
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Re: Very disturbed by this AikiWeb article

Quote:
If a child attempts to hit me I probably will attempt to prevent that - but this wasn't a spontaneous occurrence, it was an ongoing situation. I really question the wisdom of a premeditated plan to physically discipline a child not your own.
Chris, this sounded like a step-child but a step-child that was bigger than she was. You are seeming to forget this or choosing to ignore it. Of course it was self-defense. Just because actions are ongoing (i.e. not spontaneous) and the person previously accepted the actions (i.e. previous occurrences), does not waive the person's right to defend themselves. The notion of premeditation does not come into play here. All that matters is that the child intended to attack her, he attacked her and she defended herself appropriately in the given situation. And by the way it sounds, it sounds like she choose to respond appropriately.

What you are advocating is as absurd as saying that an abused spouse does not have the right to defend themselves while they are being beaten even though in previous beatings they did not fight back. Are you trying to say it's not abusive behavior because it's coming from a child? Punching and kicking an adult that the child's father loves is wrong, too, you know. This isn't a school situation where there is a total hands off policy where people (i.e. teachers) are not allowed to touch children, even in self-defense. This isn't physical discipline that going on here. She's talking about defending herself from punches and kicks -- from assault and battery. Punching and kicking loved ones is wrong, period. Is it somehow okay because it's coming from a 12 year old? A 12 year old on the brink of puberty and who is bigger than the woman in question?

I guess you would have preferred that she allow him to continue punching and kicking her? It sure does sound like it. I'm sorry, but it's not "aiki" to be a doormat.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AikiWeb News: New Article: Sword and Aikido AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 16 09-18-2012 02:48 PM
AikiWeb News: New Article: The Importance of Receiving AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 75 08-27-2012 06:37 AM
AikiWeb News: New Article: Learning from the Learned AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 10-31-2002 05:45 AM
AikiWeb News: New Article: Aikido as Spiritual Practice in the United States AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 03-25-2002 11:14 AM
AikiWeb News: New Article: Opening the Door AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 2 05-25-2001 01:31 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:13 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate