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Old 06-15-2006, 12:09 AM   #1
statisticool
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Aikido ground technique orgin

Hi,

I'll put martial art ground techiques in 2 general categories:

a) A controlling B, being wrapped up with B

b) A controlling B, being to the side of B and not wrapped up with B

Ground techniques in aikido, from what I understand, seem to focus on the b) type.

b) seem very sensible to me because while still being effective, they allow A to be more mobile to get up and out of there, allow A to defend against the possibility of multiple opponents, and allow A to not look like the attacker in the eyes of the law, things which a) does not generally allow for.

My question is, is did b) come from some of the arts that Ueshiba studied, or were they more of Ueshiba's creation?


Justin

(edited to change 3 categories to 2)

Last edited by statisticool : 06-15-2006 at 12:19 AM.

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Old 06-15-2006, 01:33 AM   #2
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

I come to understand the wrapping kind as in a) type grappling comes from pure grappling, in kodokan case, the syllabus may come from the Fusen-ryu school.

In the case of Daito-ryu (which incidently is where M. Ueshiba majored in), it is not grappling per se. I think the ground technique is mainly to hold someone momentarily, so that you could access your secondary weapon (i.e., your wakizashi) to disembowel the assailant.

The holds are also easily disengaged to deal with multiple assailants, should the need arises.

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Old 06-15-2006, 06:03 AM   #3
Steve Mullen
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

That's a good answer Xu, i especially like the disemboweling bit

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Old 06-16-2006, 11:13 AM   #4
Ari Bolden
 
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Xu is right. Fusen Ryu is the Japanese Jujitsu Ryu that has a lot of ground work to it. Kodokan Judo adopted the Ne Waza (ground work) from fusen into it's system to compliment the nage waza (throwing techniques).

Daito Ryu was a battle field art of the samurai which allowed them to "go down and get the job done" then pop up to face the next attack.

It's all amazing stuff....great question by the way Justin!

cheers
Ari Bolden

Last edited by Ari Bolden : 06-16-2006 at 11:26 AM.

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Old 06-16-2006, 11:47 AM   #5
mriehle
 
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Quote:
Ari Bolden wrote:
Daito Ryu was a battle field art of the samurai which allowed them to "go down and get the job done" then pop up to face the next attack.
An interesting consequence of this, something that one of my students who was a high school wrestler noticed, is that a lot of Aikido pins only work "for a moment". Basically, someone who knows how to relax and work the situation can get out of the pin.

This bothered me at first. Then I realized two things:

1) By the time most people relax that much, the fight has gone out of them. If you are doing the pin correctly, it really does require them to relax completely to wriggle out of it.

2) When they get out of the pin, they have to do so by moving away from you. They really can't get up and immediately launch an attack.

There are exceptions to this and I've noticed that the length of time it takes to get out of the pin - even for someone like my former wrestler student - is still related to how well you execute the pin. But battlefield pins really aren't meant to hold someone down indefinitely.

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Old 06-16-2006, 11:57 AM   #6
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Very interesting. I read an article on Neil Ohlenkamp's Judo site about the roots of Dr. Kano's Judo. It said that Judo stemmed more from the tradition of annual man vs. man Jujitsu competition carried out in Japan since antiquity. This seems to support the line of thinking you folks are presenting.

Aikido, Judo, Jujitsu, it's all Ju to me.

david
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Old 06-20-2006, 07:46 AM   #7
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

hello,
It seems pretty universal as it exactly the aim of medieval "wrestling". Each pin is designed so you have one free hand to use as you will, and pining seems to be what you search to achive (see text below)

Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

Item in all wrestling that you do, so find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins) are superior/ straightforward /chiefly researched (gepurt=purer= pur machen, untersuchen Ins reine bringen) and also auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}

phil
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Old 06-20-2006, 08:08 AM   #8
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote:
hello,
It seems pretty universal as it exactly the aim of medieval "wrestling". Each pin is designed so you have one free hand to use as you will, and pining seems to be what you search to achive (see text below)

Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

Item in all wrestling that you do, so find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins) are superior/ straightforward /chiefly researched (gepurt=purer= pur machen, untersuchen Ins reine bringen) and also auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}

phil
Habt dank fyr mach klar dis punctum.

Unfortunately my medioval German is not so firm. I would have guessed roughly the meaning,but really thanks for translation, Philippe.


Cheers Dirk
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:53 PM   #9
Raspado
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

There are no "ground" techniques in aikido. And there was only one Fusen Ryu school that dealt with newaza. You want to learn the best newaza today? Study Brazilian Jiujitsu.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:23 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Actually, some of the older forms of yoshinkan do indeed teach reclining pins, things that could indeed be called ground techiniques. But if you want to learn the school with the best reputation today...BJJ all the way. Sweeeet transitions and positioning.

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-22-2006, 04:23 PM   #11
dps
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Phillipe wrote, " Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch"

Then Dirk wrote, "Habt dank fyr mach klar dis punctum."

I thought they were speaking Klingonese.

It took awhile to get this post through spell checker.

David
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:00 PM   #12
statisticool
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Quote:
Mike Geery wrote:
You want to learn the best newaza today? Study Brazilian Jiujitsu.
Sounds like you're trying to convince that a spoon is better than a fork.

Our definitions of "ground" must differ if you're saying there are no ground techniques in aikido. I've seen people go to the ground for rolls, breakfalls, and pins.

Last edited by statisticool : 06-22-2006 at 07:02 PM.

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Old 06-22-2006, 07:18 PM   #13
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Sounds like you're trying to convince that a spoon is better than a fork.

Our definitions of "ground" must differ if you're saying there are no ground techniques in aikido. I've seen people go to the ground for rolls, breakfalls, and pins.
Yeah, those aren't 'groundfighting' movements. If you say 'groundfighting' or 'go to the ground' most people assume you're talking about newaza a la Kosen Judo or BJJ. The stuff that happens 'on the ground' in Aikido couldn't deal with a yellow belt in an art that actually does ground work. It's really disorienting to have someone competent on the ground really mess with you. I think the stuff you're referring to would be called suwariwaza or 'seated' techniques.

And looking back at your first post, they would also include kansetsuwaza which definitely come from Daito Ryu. That what you were after?
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:41 PM   #14
statisticool
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Yeah, those aren't 'groundfighting' movements. If you say 'groundfighting' ...
Did I say groundfighting? Nope.

As for what people assume...well...I can't help with that.


Justin

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:07 PM   #15
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Did I say groundfighting? Nope.

As for what people assume...well...I can't help with that.


Justin
Actually, 'ground technique' would be the english equivalent of 'newaza' which is alternately translated as 'groundfighting' so yes, yes you did.
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:39 PM   #16
TigerJK
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Clearly the kamisama endowed these divine techniques on O'Sensei....
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:48 PM   #17
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Phillipe wrote, " Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch"

Then Dirk wrote, "Habt dank fyr mach klar dis punctum."
I thought they were speaking Klingonese.
It took awhile to get this post through spell checker. David
Klingonese, German, same thing.

Boon.

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Old 06-23-2006, 06:15 AM   #18
Raspado
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Re: Aikido ground technique orgin

David--you are right. It's all JU or SU--just some practice like DO
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