Of self defense

Having never used my aikido in a defensive situation(luckily) there was something that I have been curious about. IN dojo we are always taught to relax, take care of uke, they are your responsibility. For anyone here who has had to use aikido defensivley and assuming the person you are defending against ends up immobilized, how difficult is it to not hate that person? To not want to hurt them even though they tried to cause you bodily harm? In a posistion of power such as that, how hard is it to be merciful?

I think it would be a matter of what your overall mood is at the time of interaction, the rate of them coming back and trying again, and the lethality of the situation (meaning: do you see any other way out of this other than to break the arm or wrist or other area)?

I dunno, tough q to answer for sure.

Andy, Appreciate your feedback. Another question for you personally, are you with Jarret Sensei?

Sean Constable wrote: how difficult is it to not hate that person? To not want to hurt them even though they tried to cause you bodily harm? In a posistion of power such as that, how hard is it to be merciful?

IMHO, this is the real spiritual power of Aikido, you don't have to hate to be defensive. It takes some psychological introspection and insight to get past you own self in order to be merciful.

Lynn Seiser wrote: IMHO, this is the real spiritual power of Aikido, you don't have to hate to be defensive. It takes some psychological introspection and insight to get past you own self in order to be merciful.

Umm that's common to pretty much all martial arts.

I think that in a very practical sense, the quickest way to resolve the situation is to be a source of serenity. Be a calming influence for your attacker. Hold him securely, but not painfully, in your pin until he understands that you will let him up when he's ready to be civil. One way to avoid feeling anger toward him would be to find amusement in his foolishness, or even to pity him for being in such a state as to find it necessary to physically assault someone.

Actually if anything Aikido may actually encourage people to end up going futher than they would. Aikido uses language like "harmonize", "co-operation" and "non-confrontation" so to a certain extent it removes the awareness that you could potentially cause harm leading an Aikidoka to perhaps be over zealous.
Certainly in my experience other arts hammer the reasonable force point home far more than Aikido does. Aikido, in my experience, has the mentality of "Go as hard as you like because you're not causing any perminent damage and anyway they're really doing the technique on themselves".

I doubt any accomplished martial artist of any kind would be unaware that their art is capable of causing harm. Over zealousness is a lack of control, control is something a martial artist should be learning.

I also very much disagree that other arts hammer the reasonable force message, with some of the more hard or external arts the whole idea is to smash your opponent to a pulp to save your own life, I dont particularly see the 'reasonable' in that. I would have to say Aikido is one of the arts that you have most control over your force and can actually achieve 'reasonable force'.

Ultimately it comes down to character.

You positioned in a specific situation with a certain mindset will respond to that situation in accordance with your character.
True knowledge of the self can be scary

Luckily one can change features of the character by proper training

Aikido as self defense? Hey Sean i have been studying martial arts in some shape or form for about 16 years and have an opportunity to use techniques and principles of aikido on several different occassions. I work as a police officer here in sunny ole richmond, virginia and have had to put my hands on people on more than one occassion.
In attempting to take someone into custody, by law, i can not use more than the necessary amout of force needed to effect a lawful arrest. In my opinion and experience, I am "NUMBER ONE", the community that i police is "NUMBER TWO", and the bad guy is last if he is resistant.
You would hate to say this but reality is, I am going home unscathed no matter what the situation is. I believe in the concept of loving careness for your attacker, but when it comes to protecting myself and my community, I have a job to do.
Hell i might have gone on and forgot where i was going with all of this and what your actual question was for the thread. It is early in the morning, and i am taking a much needed food break..whoops..
OH there we go..remember if it is not a specific technique that will not work, there is always a concept or principle that you might qwell a situation without anyone getting hurt.
Have fun and hit me back...
Jermaine
Aikido of Richmond

Alex Lawrence wrote: Umm that's common to pretty much all martial arts.

And not just to martial arts. Being able to hold back and remain in control of oneself when the most "obvious" action would otherwise be an agressive one - that's IMHO the basis of any religion, philosophy, martial art etc. that deals with human relations. To say it differently - this is the way we should be/act.

Sean Constable wrote: Having never used my aikido in a defensive situation(luckily) there was something that I have been curious about. IN dojo we are always taught to relax, take care of uke, they are your responsibility. For anyone here who has had to use aikido defensively and assuming the person you are defending against ends up immobilized, how difficult is it to not hate that person? To not want to hurt them even though they tried to cause you bodily harm? In a position of power such as that, how hard is it to be merciful?

It actually depended on the aggressors. Unlucky me, due to my old job of managing restaurants with lounges/bars - I had several occasions to use Aikido. If I broke them up in a fight - I used pain to get the combatants attention, they were mostly calm and not wanting any further trouble (with me). The ones trying to break the law dine and dash -some when caught realizing a consequence would occur tried real hard to escape. They tried hard to hurt me and instead I hurt them, anger leaves quick once the police arrive and take over. during the incident. But as the policeman stated my survival & well being comes first.
Oh BTW, the guy trying robbery, I care not at all how angry I was or unmerciful to him. But that's me. I guess I'm mostly nice.
Best,
Gene

I am sorry I didnt respond to this. Jarret Sensei is the Renshi of our organization ( Chishinkan ) of WV (AAA). AAWV.

He is one intense fellow for sure. A wonderful and hard person to train under.

Sean,

Five years ago, I'd have to say very difficult.

Maturing (i.e. aging) and/or training have changed that for me. Not sure which, probably both.

One thing I've got out of aikido (and tai chi) is to not look at a physical confrontation emotionally, or personally. If you saw a tornado coming toward you, would you be angry or just do what you had to do to survive? Yeah, I know, the difference is the agressor is a human being.

Fortunately, I've never had to put this thinking to the test, but my attitude has still changed in even thinking about it.

Tho only time i have used anything close to resembling my aikido was when i was coming back from training. Some guy came over the road with his friends (apparently just to p*ss me off). His friends didn't seem too interested but he was well up for it, so he "bulled up" to me and tried to push his chest into mine, a quick side step and gentle push to one shoulder, by me, later and he was stumbling past me. This kinda p*ssed him off more so he swung a punch, which i duly blocked.

Then came my next decision, i had the perfect opportunity to collect this guys arm and smash the hell out of it

BUT

That would probably have led to his 3 mates feeling duty bound to wade in and things would have got messy quickly 4 drunk guys and me with a bokken and jo close at hand and, as per mr policeman's post my safety and wellbeing is paramount, so hell yes i would have used them.

So instead i just put the smallest of push on his shoulder which sent him to his knees, at this point his mates decided that they should take him home rather than let him get more embarresed, and thus more angry.

So i think that keeping a cool head would depend on the situation, for example, if i had thought all or his mates were in from the start i would have, without any shadow of a doubt messed his arm up as much as i could to send the other 3 a message, and get him out of the fight, is that Aiki? i don't know, but at least i would have walked in through my front door that night, and not ended up in hospital or worse.

[/quote]how difficult is it to not hate that person?[quote]

I have not had to actually kill anyone thank goodness! as a soldier I have never really developed a hate for my "enemy".

There is a certain pychology that goes into using force and violent action. Maybe some of our police brethren can share.

One of the best reasons for practicing aikido is to be able to employ force and violence in a more compassionate manner. Not an easy task for sure!

Read "On Killing" if you want an idea of the mentality and the baggage that goes with using severe violent action. It is miitary centric, but can be applied to society as a whole.

"I work as a police officer here in sunny ole richmond, virginia and have had to put my hands on people on more than one occassion."

Somebody once asked my sensi "when the hell is somebody gonna grab my wrist like this?" and before the sensi could awnser a friiend of mine (I think he was 1st kyu at the time) said, "when the heat (cops) is trying to take you downtown" . I think this was the appropriate response.

Well, I don't think it has to be a matter of mercy but of purpose and efficiency.

I figure if I immobilize somebody there better be somebody else to come get him and take him somewhere where he can't hurt me.

Otherwise, if I immobilize someone...what do I do next? I either have to let him go, or injure him. If someone tied me up I wouldn't suddenly reflect on the error of my ways...I'd be pissed and waiting to strike back.

I have never pulled someone in to a hold in self defense...I've always tried to get them OFF of me. I didn't want to arrest them, or protect anyone else, or punish them into enlightenment.

I think it depends on the attacker's intentions. If he's trying to get my back pack I would of course try not to be angry, immobilize him without hurting him and try to talk to him. I'm a girl so the drunk-trying-to-hit-me thing doesn't apply, but there's the worst one, I think, which is rape. In that case, I can tell you, I would have no mercy at ALL.

Lucy Smith wrote: I think it depends on the attacker's intentions. If he's trying to get my back pack I would of course try not to be angry, immobilize him without hurting him and try to talk to him. I'm a girl so the drunk-trying-to-hit-me thing doesn't apply, but there's the worst one, I think, which is rape. In that case, I can tell you, I would have no mercy at ALL.

If only an evasion is required, just do that; if you need to injure someone to insure that you and those you love are not injured, do that. If you have to do something horrible to insure that something horrible doesn't happen to you, then do it.

Do whatever you have to do to get home alive.