Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-07-2005, 03:49 PM   #1
AikiSean!
 
AikiSean!'s Avatar
Dojo: Alpharetta Martial Arts
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 68
United_States
Offline
Of self defense

Having never used my aikido in a defensive situation(luckily) there was something that I have been curious about. IN dojo we are always taught to relax, take care of uke, they are your responsibility. For anyone here who has had to use aikido defensivley and assuming the person you are defending against ends up immobilized, how difficult is it to not hate that person? To not want to hurt them even though they tried to cause you bodily harm? In a posistion of power such as that, how hard is it to be merciful?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 04:17 PM   #2
actoman
Dojo: USA Martial Arts Center
Location: West Virginia
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

I think it would be a matter of what your overall mood is at the time of interaction, the rate of them coming back and trying again, and the lethality of the situation (meaning: do you see any other way out of this other than to break the arm or wrist or other area)?

I dunno, tough q to answer for sure.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 04:47 PM   #3
AikiSean!
 
AikiSean!'s Avatar
Dojo: Alpharetta Martial Arts
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 68
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Andy, Appreciate your feedback. Another question for you personally, are you with Jarret Sensei?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 05:20 PM   #4
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Quote:
Sean Constable wrote:
how difficult is it to not hate that person? To not want to hurt them even though they tried to cause you bodily harm? In a posistion of power such as that, how hard is it to be merciful?
IMHO, this is the real spiritual power of Aikido, you don't have to hate to be defensive. It takes some psychological introspection and insight to get past you own self in order to be merciful.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 06:46 PM   #5
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, this is the real spiritual power of Aikido, you don't have to hate to be defensive. It takes some psychological introspection and insight to get past you own self in order to be merciful.
Umm that's common to pretty much all martial arts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 07:00 PM   #6
DevinHammer
 
DevinHammer's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 89
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

I think that in a very practical sense, the quickest way to resolve the situation is to be a source of serenity. Be a calming influence for your attacker. Hold him securely, but not painfully, in your pin until he understands that you will let him up when he's ready to be civil. One way to avoid feeling anger toward him would be to find amusement in his foolishness, or even to pity him for being in such a state as to find it necessary to physically assault someone.

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
-- Jedi Master Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2005, 07:26 PM   #7
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Actually if anything Aikido may actually encourage people to end up going futher than they would. Aikido uses language like "harmonize", "co-operation" and "non-confrontation" so to a certain extent it removes the awareness that you could potentially cause harm leading an Aikidoka to perhaps be over zealous.
Certainly in my experience other arts hammer the reasonable force point home far more than Aikido does. Aikido, in my experience, has the mentality of "Go as hard as you like because you're not causing any perminent damage and anyway they're really doing the technique on themselves".
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 01:38 AM   #8
djyoung
Location: Western Australia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14
Australia
Offline
Re: Of self defense

I doubt any accomplished martial artist of any kind would be unaware that their art is capable of causing harm. Over zealousness is a lack of control, control is something a martial artist should be learning.

I also very much disagree that other arts hammer the reasonable force message, with some of the more hard or external arts the whole idea is to smash your opponent to a pulp to save your own life, I dont particularly see the 'reasonable' in that. I would have to say Aikido is one of the arts that you have most control over your force and can actually achieve 'reasonable force'.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 06:59 AM   #9
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Ultimately it comes down to character.

You positioned in a specific situation with a certain mindset will respond to that situation in accordance with your character.
True knowledge of the self can be scary

Luckily one can change features of the character by proper training
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2005, 02:43 AM   #10
shnobryu
Dojo: Richmond Aikido (VA)
Location: Richmond
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Aikido as self defense? Hey Sean i have been studying martial arts in some shape or form for about 16 years and have an opportunity to use techniques and principles of aikido on several different occassions. I work as a police officer here in sunny ole richmond, virginia and have had to put my hands on people on more than one occassion.
In attempting to take someone into custody, by law, i can not use more than the necessary amout of force needed to effect a lawful arrest. In my opinion and experience, I am "NUMBER ONE", the community that i police is "NUMBER TWO", and the bad guy is last if he is resistant.
You would hate to say this but reality is, I am going home unscathed no matter what the situation is. I believe in the concept of loving careness for your attacker, but when it comes to protecting myself and my community, I have a job to do.
Hell i might have gone on and forgot where i was going with all of this and what your actual question was for the thread. It is early in the morning, and i am taking a much needed food break..whoops..
OH there we go..remember if it is not a specific technique that will not work, there is always a concept or principle that you might qwell a situation without anyone getting hurt.
Have fun and hit me back...
Jermaine
Aikido of Richmond
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2005, 04:17 AM   #11
bogglefreak20
Dojo: Ki dojo
Location: Novo mesto & Ljubljana
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 101
Slovenia
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
Umm that's common to pretty much all martial arts.

And not just to martial arts. Being able to hold back and remain in control of oneself when the most "obvious" action would otherwise be an agressive one - that's IMHO the basis of any religion, philosophy, martial art etc. that deals with human relations. To say it differently - this is the way we should be/act.

Beatus Qui Venit In Nomine Domini!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2005, 04:31 PM   #12
guest89893
Dojo: Jihonjuku/ St.Pete. FL
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Quote:
Sean Constable wrote:
Having never used my aikido in a defensive situation(luckily) there was something that I have been curious about. IN dojo we are always taught to relax, take care of uke, they are your responsibility. For anyone here who has had to use aikido defensively and assuming the person you are defending against ends up immobilized, how difficult is it to not hate that person? To not want to hurt them even though they tried to cause you bodily harm? In a position of power such as that, how hard is it to be merciful?
It actually depended on the aggressors. Unlucky me, due to my old job of managing restaurants with lounges/bars - I had several occasions to use Aikido. If I broke them up in a fight - I used pain to get the combatants attention, they were mostly calm and not wanting any further trouble (with me). The ones trying to break the law dine and dash -some when caught realizing a consequence would occur tried real hard to escape. They tried hard to hurt me and instead I hurt them, anger leaves quick once the police arrive and take over. during the incident. But as the policeman stated my survival & well being comes first.
Oh BTW, the guy trying robbery, I care not at all how angry I was or unmerciful to him. But that's me. I guess I'm mostly nice.
Best,
Gene
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2006, 08:55 AM   #13
actoman
Dojo: USA Martial Arts Center
Location: West Virginia
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

I am sorry I didnt respond to this. Jarret Sensei is the Renshi of our organization ( Chishinkan ) of WV (AAA). AAWV.

He is one intense fellow for sure. A wonderful and hard person to train under.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2006, 03:39 PM   #14
Esaemann
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 92
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Sean,

Five years ago, I'd have to say very difficult.

Maturing (i.e. aging) and/or training have changed that for me. Not sure which, probably both.

One thing I've got out of aikido (and tai chi) is to not look at a physical confrontation emotionally, or personally. If you saw a tornado coming toward you, would you be angry or just do what you had to do to survive? Yeah, I know, the difference is the agressor is a human being.

Fortunately, I've never had to put this thinking to the test, but my attitude has still changed in even thinking about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2006, 06:11 AM   #15
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Tho only time i have used anything close to resembling my aikido was when i was coming back from training. Some guy came over the road with his friends (apparently just to p*ss me off). His friends didn't seem too interested but he was well up for it, so he "bulled up" to me and tried to push his chest into mine, a quick side step and gentle push to one shoulder, by me, later and he was stumbling past me. This kinda p*ssed him off more so he swung a punch, which i duly blocked.

Then came my next decision, i had the perfect opportunity to collect this guys arm and smash the hell out of it

BUT

That would probably have led to his 3 mates feeling duty bound to wade in and things would have got messy quickly 4 drunk guys and me with a bokken and jo close at hand and, as per mr policeman's post my safety and wellbeing is paramount, so hell yes i would have used them.

So instead i just put the smallest of push on his shoulder which sent him to his knees, at this point his mates decided that they should take him home rather than let him get more embarresed, and thus more angry.

So i think that keeping a cool head would depend on the situation, for example, if i had thought all or his mates were in from the start i would have, without any shadow of a doubt messed his arm up as much as i could to send the other 3 a message, and get him out of the fight, is that Aiki? i don't know, but at least i would have walked in through my front door that night, and not ended up in hospital or worse.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2006, 08:21 AM   #16
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Of self defense

[/quote]how difficult is it to not hate that person?[quote]

I have not had to actually kill anyone thank goodness! as a soldier I have never really developed a hate for my "enemy".

There is a certain pychology that goes into using force and violent action. Maybe some of our police brethren can share.

One of the best reasons for practicing aikido is to be able to employ force and violence in a more compassionate manner. Not an easy task for sure!

Read "On Killing" if you want an idea of the mentality and the baggage that goes with using severe violent action. It is miitary centric, but can be applied to society as a whole.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2006, 02:40 PM   #17
hapkidoike
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 51
Offline
Re: Of self defense

"I work as a police officer here in sunny ole richmond, virginia and have had to put my hands on people on more than one occassion."

Somebody once asked my sensi "when the hell is somebody gonna grab my wrist like this?" and before the sensi could awnser a friiend of mine (I think he was 1st kyu at the time) said, "when the heat (cops) is trying to take you downtown" . I think this was the appropriate response.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2006, 11:15 AM   #18
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Well, I don't think it has to be a matter of mercy but of purpose and efficiency.

I figure if I immobilize somebody there better be somebody else to come get him and take him somewhere where he can't hurt me.

Otherwise, if I immobilize someone...what do I do next? I either have to let him go, or injure him. If someone tied me up I wouldn't suddenly reflect on the error of my ways...I'd be pissed and waiting to strike back.

I have never pulled someone in to a hold in self defense...I've always tried to get them OFF of me. I didn't want to arrest them, or protect anyone else, or punish them into enlightenment.

Last edited by Lyle Bogin : 06-10-2006 at 11:16 AM. Reason: grammerz
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2006, 11:41 AM   #19
Lucy Smith
Dojo: Samurai Dojo
Location: Montevideo
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 138
Uruguay
Offline
Re: Of self defense

I think it depends on the attacker's intentions. If he's trying to get my back pack I would of course try not to be angry, immobilize him without hurting him and try to talk to him. I'm a girl so the drunk-trying-to-hit-me thing doesn't apply, but there's the worst one, I think, which is rape. In that case, I can tell you, I would have no mercy at ALL.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2006, 11:11 AM   #20
James Davis
 
James Davis's Avatar
Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
Location: Ft. Myers, FL.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 716
United_States
Offline
Re: Of self defense

Quote:
Lucy Smith wrote:
I think it depends on the attacker's intentions. If he's trying to get my back pack I would of course try not to be angry, immobilize him without hurting him and try to talk to him. I'm a girl so the drunk-trying-to-hit-me thing doesn't apply, but there's the worst one, I think, which is rape. In that case, I can tell you, I would have no mercy at ALL.

If only an evasion is required, just do that; if you need to injure someone to insure that you and those you love are not injured, do that. If you have to do something horrible to insure that something horrible doesn't happen to you, then do it.

Do whatever you have to do to get home alive.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full Speed Randori and Self Defense smithid General 40 12-27-2009 11:24 PM
Aikido no good for self defense?? Dissipate General 52 09-27-2004 07:15 PM
Self defense against what??? Yann Golanski General 11 08-26-2004 02:13 PM
The Telescope DaveO General 11 07-16-2004 09:11 PM
Aikido IS Self Defense DavidM General 3 05-24-2002 12:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:35 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate