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Old 02-07-2008, 08:04 AM   #126
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

The more I train, the less I cross train and the more I go back to judo.

I am working right now for my black belt in judo. I am probably about a year or so away (depending on a kata partner). I've found that the more I train judo, the less need I feel to do anything else. Even my bjj ground game has changed dramatically from judo. I rarely even show up for striking training anymore. I do find that just focusing on judo has made my sparing better in bjj, judo, and even the little MMA I engage in on fridays. My clinch is stronger, my sense of timing is way better then it has ever been, and MOST importantly, I can throw people on their heads and land on them.

This has lead me to believe that cross training is a phase and nowhere near as important as just MMA sparing. I could truely see me eventually training in nothing but judo and sparing with MMA rules.

Not saying quit everything and train judo, it just happens that judo seems to be the best fit for me. Odd seeing that I basically blew it off a year ago and only kept showing up for practice to just work a throw or two I use in bjj matches. Now, I couldn't live without judo in my game, it's the largest part of my game. It's rare that I am not the one who gets the takedown, lands on top and stays there.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:26 PM   #127
CNYMike
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I obviously am passionately committed to mixed training...
but I have a few caveats.

1. It is not for beginners. Most folks need a base art; a shodan in one art before they branch out.
That, I'm not so sure about .... mainly because I didn't do it.
If you wantto cross-train, do it!

Quote:
2. Someone must keep specific traditions alive and distinct ....
Absolutely. You have to think about posterity -- what future generations will get. I keep saying a martial arts class focuses on two things -- the techniques and the system. The audience for the techniques is the group of students right there; the audience for the system is their students' students. Will people get what you benefitted from two or three generations removed from you? If not, what's the point?

That said .....

Quote:

.... all arts are alive and change over time. It is good that change is taken at a conservative pace within traditional curriculums.
That's especially tricky with Aikido, because O Sensei didn't want it carved in stone, yet if you depart too much, it's not Aikido anymore.

Personally, if I were to try to combine things from Aikido and other arts into one system, I wouldn't put "Aikido" in the name, out of respect for O Sensei and the lineage between him and me. It's one thing to draw on Aikido as source material, but that doesn't mean you have to go back to the source and mess with it. And you shouldn't.
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:50 AM   #128
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Absolutely. You have to think about posterity -- what future generations will get. I keep saying a martial arts class focuses on two things -- the techniques and the system. The audience for the techniques is the group of students right there; the audience for the system is their students' students. Will people get what you benefitted from two or three generations removed from you? If not, what's the point?
In the 1970's Brian Adams (Kempo Master) had returned from meditating in India for 2 years. When he returned he tried to teach with just principles and "instinctive-learning drills". He saw great progress in the learning curve....for about 6 weeks. Then people started to leave for other dojos. Point being? People need structure. They need to learn techniques as well as training in applied instinctinve movement. A standardized curriculum provides signposts for the specific martial path/tradition you have chosen.

Quote:
That's (curriculum change) sic especially tricky with Aikido, because O Sensei didn't want it carved in stone, yet if you depart too much, it's not Aikido anymore. ... Personally, if I were to try to combine things from Aikido and other arts into one system, I wouldn't put "Aikido" in the name, out of respect for O Sensei and the lineage between him and me. It's one thing to draw on Aikido as source material, but that doesn't mean you have to go back to the source and mess with it. And you shouldn't.
I would not try to combine other stuff into the system. That is for the Soke's of the system to do. I believe that each system should stay distinct. But individuals should adopt what works for them under the crucible of discovering their own specific budo path (Bruce Lee). The sports path will be different from the military path which will be different from the police path....different from the bodyguard's path. And many practicioner's paths will be for "personal growth" without overstressing the fighting aspects.

My own path is as an R&D guy. I really want no place or position of authority in any system. I like testing theses and hypotheses, finding ways to shorten the learning curve, developing drills that challenge hidden assumptions that yudansha have, taking "willing yudansha" to the edge of their personal cliff, and walking with them in a socratic fashion while they find their own resolutions to what they saw when they peered over the cliff; then shaking their hand "good-bye and godspeed" as they return to their tradition a bit different than before.... "Ah not the same Kord". (The Silent Flute/Circle of Iron).
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:56 PM   #129
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I just like to throw people on their heads and choke them.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:56 PM   #130
Steve Peters
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

One of my sensei's suggested some cross training in striking arts. Not so much for defense, but for improved ukemi and atemi.
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Old 02-20-2008, 08:38 PM   #131
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

The more I train, I find them all to be the same....we all observe the same principles/techniques, it is just how we perceive them as an individual....
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:18 AM   #132
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I started aikido because I moved to a place where there wasn't anything else (and there was a good, if young, aikido dojo). Now, wouldn't you know it, I'm spending three days a week in Boston, where I used to live. I'm not about to go back, but I do entertain the thought, from time to time, of maybe doing a little training at my old karate dojo. I don't think I will, though -- I don't want to dabble at either style. I'll probably stop by and offer to buy my old sensei a beer, though.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:03 PM   #133
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Aikido in it self is a true martial art, However true, Aikido is a combination of five major martial arts namely; Classic Aikijujutsu, Judo, Kendo, Art of Samurai and Spear Fighting. Their very best techniques combined together to form the art of Aikido. A well studied martial art of purely self defense, If there is no offense there is no defense. Virtually unlimited techniques, It is not an offensive form of martial art. Its' movements are graceful and harmonize with the force of the opponent, it utilizes the strength and momentum of an aggressor to be used against his own intention.

Mixing Aikido with other martial arts to my opinion is not desirable! because, mixing would defeat many principles of Aikido. May become offensive and destructive.

Aikido should be the finisher course of all martial arts! Since Aikido polishes the movements and techniques of ones' skill and need not be strong to apply the skill of Aikido.

Last edited by jaybee : 05-01-2008 at 12:08 PM.

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Old 05-01-2008, 01:02 PM   #134
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I don't see much kendo or judo in aikido. Might just be me though.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:16 PM   #135
edtang
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Well judging from his post I seriously doubt he's ever done any Judo or Kendo.
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:55 PM   #136
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Hi Don,

Given the context that this came up in, I'd agree with you.

Outside of that context, try the Jiyushinkai, and then tell me you don't see much judo in aikido. Or Mochizuki's students. They did kendo as well at one point I believe.

I think it's a matter of what you've been exposed to.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:35 PM   #137
CSFurious
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Jose,

i agree with everything you say

however, the problem with modern Aikido in my experience is that it is often the beginner course for many Aikido students, &, therefore, they do not understand what an actual fight is like with a non-compliant opponent

i would even submit that it is easier to teach and make money from Aikido by making it softer

let's be honest, most people are not going to pay money to get hurt which is what happens when you train in a certain way; i submit that while you can suffer injuries in Aikido schools that all of the major martial arts injuries that i have suffered happened to me when i was not studying Aikido (is that just bad luck or indicative of something else?)

most people have neither the desire nor the need to train like samurai, and thus we are left with a modern martial art where the student must actually look elsewhere for the actual foundation of their training

also, to people who disagree, it is a fact that the original students of O'Sensei all had significant martial arts experience before they trained in Aikido (if that does not tell you that experience in Aikido alone is not sufficient, i do not know what will)

Quote:
Jose Ponce wrote: View Post
Aikido in it self is a true martial art, However true, Aikido is a combination of five major martial arts namely; Classic Aikijujutsu, Judo, Kendo, Art of Samurai and Spear Fighting. Their very best techniques combined together to form the art of Aikido. A well studied martial art of purely self defense, If there is no offense there is no defense. Virtually unlimited techniques, It is not an offensive form of martial art. Its' movements are graceful and harmonize with the force of the opponent, it utilizes the strength and momentum of an aggressor to be used against his own intention.

Mixing Aikido with other martial arts to my opinion is not desirable! because, mixing would defeat many principles of Aikido. May become offensive and destructive.

Aikido should be the finisher course of all martial arts! Since Aikido polishes the movements and techniques of ones' skill and need not be strong to apply the skill of Aikido.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:59 PM   #138
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
also, to people who disagree, it is a fact that the original students of O'Sensei all had significant martial arts experience before they trained in Aikido (if that does not tell you that experience in Aikido alone is not sufficient, i do not know what will)
I agree that your assumption is probably correct, that they had experience in other arts, AND that it probably helped them in many ways.
However, (you knew there had to be one).

I don't necessarily agree that "it tells you something" as your implication implies.

What it tells me is that the culture within Japan was such that they had other backgrounds.

Did it indeed help them? Maybe.

It might also be said that it hurt their development in aikido as aikido.

I don't know.

I do know that I personally feel that having a background in other martial arts has helped me as a martial artist in general. It has given me a broad picture about martial options and paradigms.

How does it help me in aikido....I don't know, I seem to be at least as skilled, maybe less than others in the art of aikido...I certainly don't have the depth that many others have.

I think the discussion centers around depth and breadth.

Certainly other arts give you breadth...however they probably don't give you depth in aikido.

Which is more important???

I think it depends on you and your goals.

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Old 05-01-2008, 03:38 PM   #139
CSFurious
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Kevin, you are clearly a deep individual & i cannot disagree with anything you say

it is a paradox but i think that training in other martial arts or having previous martial arts experience actually hinders you when studying Aikido, e.g., i have trained in Judo & if i suddenly start using Judo during an Aikido techinque, in an abstract way, i think that i just stopped practicing Aikido

it is fundamental to me that one must practice with an "empty cup"

be that as it may, my cup is now halfway filled

anyway, i think studying other systems was more about the exposure for me & since my exposure, i like Aikido even more than previously
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:42 PM   #140
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

agreed, my experiences for the most part as well.

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Old 05-01-2008, 04:54 PM   #141
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

yeah to take the analogy, it used to be everyone showing up to my bjj school were expereienced martial artists of another type. Is that because you need another art to do bjj? No, it was just that the only people that had heard about it were martial artists. Now that it is more "mainstream" many more true newbies are coming through the door.

It may have been similar with Aikido - when it first started it makes sense that it was experienced martial artists that heard about it and showed up.

Having said all that, I agree it works better when built on a foundation of live training in other arts.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:14 PM   #142
Dewey
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Christopher Froba wrote: View Post
Jose,

i agree with everything you say

however, the problem with modern Aikido in my experience is that it is often the beginner course for many Aikido students, &, therefore, they do not understand what an actual fight is like with a non-compliant opponent

i would even submit that it is easier to teach and make money from Aikido by making it softer

let's be honest, most people are not going to pay money to get hurt which is what happens when you train in a certain way; i submit that while you can suffer injuries in Aikido schools that all of the major martial arts injuries that i have suffered happened to me when i was not studying Aikido (is that just bad luck or indicative of something else?)
Let's see here. I belong to a dojo that has as its head instructor a former SWAT officer in the local police department and many dojomates who are former military, not to mention that our shihan is Larry Reynosa (who was the former top student on Seagal...that is, when Seagal was in his prime). The focus of our training is realistic self-defense. No "here, please grab my wrist" sort of nonsense. This was "hit 'em with everything you have" sort of training. No shonenuchi stuff sort of nonsense or other stylized sort of attacks. Just the "punch me!" sort of attacks.

Reynosa Sensei was at our dojo a couple weeks ago (don't believe me? http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14044). We were put through the ringer. My left shoulder still hurts...2 weeks later! I'm 180lbs. at 5'7" (not fat, either). I threw everything I had at my training partners. Reynosa wouldn't have anything less.

I'm completely conviced that Aikido "works."
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:00 AM   #143
CSFurious
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

this is not the Aikido training that i am talking about

you need to leave that dojo & go visit some other Aikido schools

eventually, you will experience what i am talking about & you will appreciate your current instructor even more than you already do
Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Let's see here. I belong to a dojo that has as its head instructor a former SWAT officer in the local police department and many dojomates who are former military, not to mention that our shihan is Larry Reynosa (who was the former top student on Seagal...that is, when Seagal was in his prime). The focus of our training is realistic self-defense. No "here, please grab my wrist" sort of nonsense. This was "hit 'em with everything you have" sort of training. No shonenuchi stuff sort of nonsense or other stylized sort of attacks. Just the "punch me!" sort of attacks.

Reynosa Sensei was at our dojo a couple weeks ago (don't believe me? http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14044). We were put through the ringer. My left shoulder still hurts...2 weeks later! I'm 180lbs. at 5'7" (not fat, either). I threw everything I had at my training partners. Reynosa wouldn't have anything less.

I'm completely conviced that Aikido "works."
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Old 05-02-2008, 11:55 PM   #144
CNYMike
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Christopher Froba wrote: View Post
.... it is a fact that the original students of O'Sensei all had significant martial arts experience before they trained in Aikido....
O Sensei had pretty stringent entrance requirements for thatcadre of students -- they had to have a black belt in something else and be sponsored by one or two people he trusted. Then he interviewed you. If you blew it then, that was it. So it may have had more to do with that than anything else.
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Old 05-03-2008, 02:03 AM   #145
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I just like to throw people on their heads and choke them.
and others like to pound peoples faces repeatedly with their fist.
i.e., boxing.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-03-2008, 01:54 PM   #146
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Bruce Lee had a good point- that once you say you practice a certain style, you tend to confine yourself to the techniques within it.

I like and use Karate striking, Tae Kwon Do kicks, Kung Fu blocking and trapping, Judo throws and BJJ grappling. But I think Aikido has a particular elegance that I find very appealing. Hands down, it's my favorite.

It's cerebral and it's full of finesse. There's a mysterious, magical quality that attracts high level practitioners from other arts. It's only highly effective if you're really good.

Have you ever noticed that even though there's that constant question of effectiveness, the number of zealous fanatics grows every year?

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 05-03-2008 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 05-04-2008, 10:10 AM   #147
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
and others like to pound peoples faces repeatedly with their fist.
i.e., boxing.

Peace

dAlen
All the more reason why I train in multiple areas and do MMA sparing. So even in against one like that, I can still throw them on their head and choke them.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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