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Old 06-13-2006, 08:03 AM   #76
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I would say you are not doing enough aikido or judo to really gain skill at a reasonable pace. I'd suggest having a main art and then a secondary, but any more then that and you are really wasting your time. (With the exception of maintaining existing skill)

I started with aikido. I was going 3 days a week, and I was gaining skill. Then I added judo 2 days a week. Still no issues in skill gain. Then I added bjj training. Now it started getting tricky, focusing in on the skills I needed to develop for each art become hard. Then I tried to add more MMA instruction with boxing and mauy thai focus and found that I was really just wasting my time (although getting one hell of a work out). I dropped a lot off my schedual and found that I started to gain skill quickly again. Currently I work bjj/mma and sometimes judo (although no longer formally, just stop by a few judo clubs now and then to practice and keep my throws up to par for bjj/mma competition). I'm training 4 days a week and getting much better results then my 6 days a week previous.

Another thing to concider is the level of instruction. If you only go to class one day a week, and you dont practice a lot on your own time (which is hard to do without a partner as judo really requires a partner), you will find your instructor might not take you seriously or offer any real instruction to you. You will just become a guy who pays his bills. Or you may find you are insulting that instructor. I ran into this as have others I know. It can be very insulting to a instructor.

Last edited by DonMagee : 06-13-2006 at 08:08 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:39 PM   #77
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I train on average of 5 days a week for about three hours a day...so that is about 18 hours a week. Doesn't include classes that I teach or assist with or seminars. So I probably train something like 60 to 80 hours per month depending on the month and my schedule.

Also try and augment with yoga, plyometrics, and other things when i can.

Still wish I had more time to train!
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Old 06-13-2006, 04:06 PM   #78
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.

If you want to master Aikido, only focus on IT and dedicate yourself 110%. If you are not worried about a great number of things, then go for it. Just my advice.
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Old 06-13-2006, 04:49 PM   #79
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Brad Medling wrote:
Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.

If you want to master Aikido, only focus on IT and dedicate yourself 110%. If you are not worried about a great number of things, then go for it. Just my advice.
Morihei Ueshiba seemed to do OK mixing various arts. So did his teacher, Sokaku Takeda. Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki mixed various arts as well, but maybe they were just confused .

Time was, almost all of Ueshiba's and Takeda's students had backgrounds in various arts, and nobody thought twice about it.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-13-2006, 05:56 PM   #80
Don_Modesto
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Morihei Ueshiba seemed to do OK mixing various arts. So did his teacher, Sokaku Takeda. Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki mixed various arts as well, but maybe they were just confused .

Time was, almost all of Ueshiba's and Takeda's students had backgrounds in various arts, and nobody thought twice about it.
So..."traditional" means, egads!--"little continuity"? Innovation?! CHANGING WHAT YOUR TEACHER TAUGHT YOU?!

Say it ain't so!

Quick, what's the address of that SOKE council? My money's in the mail!


Don J. Modesto
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Old 06-13-2006, 06:11 PM   #81
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I think the controversy over cross-training is two fold. 1) the western person is impatient and has something to prove; 2) the eastern person still carries the style vs. style rivalry baggage accumulated over the last few centuries.

I guess with MMA we get a combination of both impatience and penis envy. Nah, those guys train hard. But they are shameless self-promoters with a very narrow view of the martial arts.

Personally I don't care for belts, ranks, tournaments, or any of that. I guess I'm with Bruce Lee about the whole style thing too. Each of us must develop our own and seek our own path. Some would say that Bruce was a Wing Tsun expert. Maybe he was, for a while. But he discarded much of his classical training without giving up any of his martial ability. In fact, through exploring other arts he became even better. Though he never was an "expert" at any of them, that he was an expert martial artist there is no doubt.

Being a great martial artist requires a lifelong commitment. But I don't see it as a commitment to a style, it's a commitment oneself to persevere, to continually learn and improve, to have an open mind, to have patience, and to find a way to overcome our own worst enemy: ignorance.
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:36 PM   #82
CNYMike
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Philip Farthing wrote:
New guy here.

What would y'all say to a schedule with...
Aikido 2x a week
Judo 1x a week
Taichi Daily

I've practiced them all separately at one time or another and found myself rotating through the list over the years.

Taichi offers great MA foundation, but generally lacks practitioners that want to explore the grosser applications.

The stand-up Judo practice always reminded me of a more robust push hands and through Aikido I actually get to do a lot of the joint locks and throws in the form.

The reasons why I tend to migrate from one to the other is probably obvious and is rooted in wanting to have it all I guess.

I suppose the drawback is the progress one would make in pursuing all these at the same time. But what I'm really after is a 'holistic' approach: internal training + external application.

Belts aren't important and likely one day I will do Taichi exclusively. But right now I want to make progress in the self-defense thing and keep the Taichi real too

any comments?
If you have the time, the money, and your instructors don't have cows about your doing other things, then go for it.

Myself, right now I'm doing Aikido, Jun Fan/JKD, and Inosanto Kali each once a week; and Pentjak Silat Serak twice a week. Serak will be back to once a week when the college karate class I train with resumes in the Fall. I ended up doing this by doing what I was interested in and training with whom I wanted to continue training with. Ten years ago, all I did was karate; I started in Kali in 1997. I added other things over time. Jun Fan/JKD is the latest addition -- after hearing about it for years in my Kali instructors' digressions and asides, I thought I'd give it a whirl! I'm also a creature of habit; once i start doing something, I keep at it.

I may delete stuff someday, but right now, I am not doing anything I want to drop.

As to how quickly you progress in various arts, well, O Sensei said you shouldn't be in a hurry in your Aikido training anyway. (I can't quote him exactly because I loaned my copy of Secrets of Aikido and that person isn't done with it yet.) There are a wide range of opinions on this issue. I think if you are doing what you want to do and enjoy it, then do it and don't worry about what anyone else says.

Just my 2p.
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Old 06-14-2006, 02:14 PM   #83
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Brad wrote:

Quote:
Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.
I mix em all the time! I have found that it makes you think hard about what you are learning, and work harder to understand. It may slow you down some, or cause some obstacles, but I think it really only causes you to face those obstacles you'd incur anyway sooner.

I think it is harder to train this way as it can cause conflict and frustration, but pain can be growth. I personally prefer the challenge rather than being comfortable in a predictable pattern that can cause complaceny to set in. I think aikido can be very prone to this as we tend to be polite to a certain degree in our training.
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Old 06-14-2006, 02:24 PM   #84
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Hi Don and Chris,

The funny thing is, there was a similar discussion on the yoshinkan board, and strange enough, there was someone touting the benefits of doing one thing. Something about you'll never master aikido if you split your focus. I don't know where some of these ideas come from. Mits Yamashita is in the Yoshinkan...he certainly doesn't follow that rule.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-14-2006, 03:28 PM   #85
Richard Langridge
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Personally I'm not going to cross train until I've done a year or two of Aikido on its own. After that I think I'd like to try out some other stuff, it can't hurt. I'm guessing it also can't hurt for those who've been doing Aikido for a while to try out some other stuff, if only to get that feeling of being a beginner again.
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Old 06-14-2006, 05:01 PM   #86
Don_Modesto
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
the yoshinkan board

Hey, Ron,

What's that url? Observers welcome?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:01 PM   #87
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Don and Chris,

The funny thing is, there was a similar discussion on the yoshinkan board, and strange enough, there was someone touting the benefits of doing one thing. Something about you'll never master aikido if you split your focus. I don't know where some of these ideas come from. Mits Yamashita is in the Yoshinkan...he certainly doesn't follow that rule.

Best,
Ron
I think that this attitude is pretty ironic in that O-Sensei wouldn't take you on as a student unless you already had a substantial background in at least one other art. The fact that so many Aikido folks have no real exposure to other arts is responsible for various weaknesses we see in contemporary Aikido.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 06-14-2006, 09:17 PM   #88
xuzen
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Don and Chris,
The funny thing is, there was a similar discussion on the yoshinkan board, and strange enough, there was someone touting the benefits of doing one thing. Something about you'll never master aikido if you split your focus. I don't know where some of these ideas come from. Mits Yamashita is in the Yoshinkan...he certainly doesn't follow that rule.
Best,
Ron
Ron,

Morihei Ueshiba was never a one art guy, Shioda Gozo was also not a one art guy... how on earth did they come out with such ideas? Just curious...

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-14-2006, 11:08 PM   #89
CNYMike
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Brad Medling wrote:
Mixing various martial arts? Not a good idea. Why? Well, for one, you will never master any of the arts you attempt and as different arts evoke different philosophies, it will only create confusion.
Only if you don't learn to compartmentalize, one of my little projects. When in Aikido, do Aikido; when in another system, do that. There's no confusion at all. I expericen more "confusion" pver which system of ettiquette to use than which martial art I am doing, and even then, it's a very minor annoyance.
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Old 06-15-2006, 07:22 AM   #90
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Hi guys,

I'm with Mike (above) on this one...compartmentalize. Do what you are supposed to do in each particular environment.

I didn't say anything on the yosh board, since there are people there posting with much more yoshinkan experience than I, but thankfully there were some others who spoke up. It's a yahoogroups.com group. I think you can join by clicking a link once you search for the group. It's actually pretty good reading.

I don't know where stuff like this comes from. The fanatacism in martail art is a little scary sometimes.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-15-2006, 08:26 AM   #91
Jorge Garcia
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Eek! Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Hey, Ron,

What's that url? Observers welcome?
I mean this in a humorous way but if that Yoshinkan board lets our group in, they would start to have threads like

"Yoshinkan doesn't work in a fight"
"Don't waste your time practicing Yoshinkan"
"Yoshinkan doesn't work when..."
"Mixing Yoshinkan with other martial arts"

That would really get their group excited over there about all the other possibilities they should be working on

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:06 AM   #92
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts



Don't worry, they are just as contentious at times as any other group. They don't need any help in that regard...none of us do!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:08 AM   #93
MM
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

The URL is:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/yoshinkan/

It's a Yahoo group. Yahoo has gone through changes recently and hasn't been operating at 100%. If you find something isn't working right, it isn't the group, but probably Yahoo.

The group setting is that membership requires approval. But messages from members do not. The description states, "This list is for the discussion of Yoshinkan Aikido."

That should get anyone started, right?

Mark
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:10 AM   #94
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

absolutely. Thanks for taking the time to do what I was too lazy/busy to do!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:47 AM   #95
MM
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
absolutely. Thanks for taking the time to do what I was too lazy/busy to do!

Best,
Ron
Ron,
Hello! I didn't think you were lazy. I just happened to have that fresh on the computer because I was reading some of that thread the last few days. It's irritating because Yahoo kept erroring out. Ugh. So, I copied the link here.

Hope things are going well for you. And back to the topic at hand, er, computer screen, I'm starting regular kali/silat training at the end of this month. And I'm excited about it.

How does that work for me? It actually works out very well. I'm still continuing my Aikido and I'm hitting an area where it's refreshingly new (sort of ... old themes but new way of looking at it) yet amazingly irritating. LOL. It's like being a beginner all over again and trying to do rolls.

But kali is cool and interesting. It's an aspect of martial arts that appeals to me. I'm not learning it because I think Aikido is lacking. No, Aikido is a whole art that is all encompassing. In fact, I hope kali turns out to be just as all encompassing an art that Aikido is. I don't know, though, because I'm just starting.

Do I wish to blend the two? Not right now. Especially since I don't know kali. It would be unwise to blend two things when you only have a semi-decent grasp of one and no grasp of the other.

As with all things, time will tell. What it will tell I haven't a clue. LOL. But it should be a fun, hard, and wild ride. Glad I'm still young enough to enjoy the hard work and play.

Mark
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Old 06-15-2006, 09:59 AM   #96
CNYMike
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
I mean this in a humorous way but if that Yoshinkan board lets our group in, they would start to have threads like

"Yoshinkan doesn't work in a fight"
"Don't waste your time practicing Yoshinkan"
"Yoshinkan doesn't work when..."
"Mixing Yoshinkan with other martial arts"

That would really get their group excited over there about all the other possibilities they should be working on
If they let someone like me in there, you'd see things like .....

"You might be a Yoshinkan addict if .... "
"You might be a Yoshinkan group addict if .... "
"Top ten signs of too much Yoshinkan....."

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Old 06-15-2006, 10:20 AM   #97
CNYMike
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
..... I'm starting regular kali/silat training at the end of this month. And I'm excited about it.

How does that work for me? It actually works out very well. I'm still continuing my Aikido and I'm hitting an area where it's refreshingly new (sort of ... old themes but new way of looking at it) yet amazingly irritating. LOL. It's like being a beginner all over again and trying to do rolls.

But kali is cool and interesting. It's an aspect of martial arts that appeals to me. I'm not learning it because I think Aikido is lacking. No, Aikido is a whole art that is all encompassing. In fact, I hope kali turns out to be just as all encompassing an art that Aikido is. I don't know, though, because I'm just starting.
There are a couple of different definitions of "complete" at work here.

In the sense that you address all the ranges of combat and all the possible technques, no most Aikido is not complete. There are just too many things you do NOT see in a formal setting. Yes, Aikido can very from teacher to teacher, and some do pile in things like kickboxing and ground work. I'm not denying that. But in straight, "classical" Aikido, you don't see it.

Does this mean an Aikidoka is helpless against that stuff? Not necessarily, provided you go beyond learning techniques and internalize the principles; that allows you to come up with techniques. If Aiki is at your spinal cord level, and you don't have to think about it, in theory, you would have a chance, but that assumes you have reached that point.

But a system can be considered "complete" and still have it's area of specialization. Thai Boxing, BJJ, western boxing can all be considered "complete" in and of themselves even though there are things they don't cover at all. There's nothing wrong with them -- there are things they do and things they don't do. For instance, my kali instructor loves Boxing, not just to watch it but to do it. He will tell you what he loves about it and what it's good at. He will also tell you that there are things it doesn't have answers for.

So in one sense Aikido is "complete," but in another it is not. But even then, note that I have NEVER referred to it with words like "inadequate," "lacking," "weak," or any other terms that carry a negative connotation. There's nothing wrong with it; it is what it is.

Quote:
Do I wish to blend the two? Not right now. Especially since I don't know kali. It would be unwise to blend two things when you only have a semi-decent grasp of one and no grasp of the other.
Well, if the system you're studying is anything like Inosanto Kali, it comes blended. That is, there is a huge empty hands section that includes grappling, and you will see many of the same throws and locks you see in Aikido -- not exactly the same and done with different reference points ie a kickboxing perspective most likely. Of course, Aikido addresses that material all the time, whereas who knows how often you will cycle around through Dumog. But in terms of areas of techniques, you shouldn't have to worry about blending anything -- it's blended.

..... that assumes, of course, you are either in or is something like Inosanto Kali which draws on the traditional Filipino empty hand styles. However, some systems, like Modern Arnis, use karate as their base for empty hands. The Filipinos, it seems, are very good at using other people's arts; most FMA sytems are hybrids. Where are you doing this? If the school has a link, I'd like to see it.



Quote:
As with all things, time will tell. What it will tell I haven't a clue. LOL. But it should be a fun, hard, and wild ride. Glad I'm still young enough to enjoy the hard work and play.

Mark
Absolutely. And don't be surprised if what you get out of it is different from the reason you started doing it.

Good luck!
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Old 06-15-2006, 12:23 PM   #98
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Ron,
Hello! I didn't think you were lazy. I just happened to have that fresh on the computer because I was reading some of that thread the last few days. It's irritating because Yahoo kept erroring out. Ugh. So, I copied the link here.

Hope things are going well for you. And back to the topic at hand, er, computer screen, I'm starting regular kali/silat training at the end of this month. And I'm excited about it.

How does that work for me? It actually works out very well. I'm still continuing my Aikido and I'm hitting an area where it's refreshingly new (sort of ... old themes but new way of looking at it) yet amazingly irritating. LOL. It's like being a beginner all over again and trying to do rolls.

But kali is cool and interesting. It's an aspect of martial arts that appeals to me. I'm not learning it because I think Aikido is lacking. No, Aikido is a whole art that is all encompassing. In fact, I hope kali turns out to be just as all encompassing an art that Aikido is. I don't know, though, because I'm just starting.

Do I wish to blend the two? Not right now. Especially since I don't know kali. It would be unwise to blend two things when you only have a semi-decent grasp of one and no grasp of the other.

As with all things, time will tell. What it will tell I haven't a clue. LOL. But it should be a fun, hard, and wild ride. Glad I'm still young enough to enjoy the hard work and play.

Mark
When I'm sparing or competing, I dont think, OK now I'll do aikido, or now I'm doing bjj. I'm just doing. I never blended any of my arts. I just do what comes natural to the situation. I wouldn't worry about blending arts or keeping them seperate. Just train.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-15-2006, 12:31 PM   #99
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Well, I spar infrequently at best (aikido randori doesn't count), and I never compete anymore.

But in training, I find it best not to throw my aikido uke with osoto gari during aikido class. The 7th dan instructor tends to get slightly miffed when I do that...and if there's one person you don't want to make slightly miffed...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-15-2006, 12:42 PM   #100
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Well, I spar infrequently at best (aikido randori doesn't count), and I never compete anymore.

But in training, I find it best not to throw my aikido uke with osoto gari during aikido class. The 7th dan instructor tends to get slightly miffed when I do that...and if there's one person you don't want to make slightly miffed...

Best,
Ron
Yea, I woulnd't suggest that. Unless of course your instructor decides to teach Osoto gari :-)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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