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Old 06-04-2006, 05:15 PM   #26
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Hey Jorge, I'm glad my thread helped your high blood pressure

Since I started the thread I'll attempt to answer your questions from my point view and situation.


Agreed. Finding time to practice Aikido, let alone additional martial arts is tough. The problem I am faced with is that for up to 6 months at a time I may be unable to find an aikido school/class to practice in. Depending on my lack of luck I may even be unable to simply find a partner to practice with. If I am posted to a base without an active aikido community I may have to drive one or two hours each way to attend a class.


A very real possibility! I am of the mind that exploring any martial art when faced with the choice of that or no martial art at all is a good thing.


Of course but this can beg the question of why bother to learn any martial art.


Good question! And a fair one too. In my case it is a matter of career. I'm looking at self defense because in my job there is a very real chance I will need it. An inability to defend myself will not only threaten my life but my peers as well. The feeling I'm getting from people (referring to your question #6) is that Aikido DOES take a long time to learn. Even at the "higher" levels your still learning. Looking at aikido and self defense from a practical point of view (using the amount of time I have to study and train with it), I feel that I run a good chance of not being able to use it effectively for a while at least. Perhaps when I've been exposed to it more but I may not have the opportunity to wait. Better safe than sorry.


Right. Eluding back to question 4, if you're barely understanding Aikido with 11 years under your belt how much do I honestly understand about it? (IE being able to use it effectively)


Guilty of the latter. 6th Kyu myself.


Good question. I've been debating with myself over this. Over all I prefer the aikido philosophy of not using force. I think it works much better on a practical level AND spiritual one.
I'll be glad when I'm at that level. Since I am not (yet) I feel that completely abandoning using force (in a real life self defense situation) while trying to understand how NOT to use force wouldn't be wise in my case.
I see it as a controlled gradual process.


This is quite a bit beyond my level. I would venture a guess that he created aikido after seeing what a good punch to the nose COULD do? In order for him to really understand what aikido was (or would be?) he had to understand the In's and outs of using force.
I can't answer why he would make Aikido. Why he didn't incorporate punching or ground work. He had a dream. Considering his martial arts experience I am sure he was more than comfortable defending himself on the ground as much as standing, his aikido came after a life time of other martial arts (unless I am wrong please correct me)

Now I'm not suggesting aikido can only be done after you've trained in other martial arts. (I wouldn't know) I'm certain there are students out there who have only studied aikido and are just amazing. I can also understand how frustrating it must be to probably have a stream of people always asking the same questions, thank you for being patient.
My main reasons for bringing this up is again from a practical point of view centering on the fact that as much as I love all things aikido I do not have the luxury of 10 years of training.

I see aikido as an art that just takes a long time to learn due to how powerful it is, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I'm looking to cover my butt until I get there.

Kevin the self defense your describing in your post is pretty much taken from the material found in the link you sent me? Seems like a very simple no non-sense approach!

Grant,
For #1- I say take an art close to you and don't go that far for Aikido.
On #6 - Yes, Aikido takes a long time to learn, a very long time. At 5 years, I felt confident. At 10 years, I lost my fears and had my questions answered. In the last year, I have been realizing that Aikido isn't about the techniques as much as it is about how you move and how you shoot your energy. Hearing my teacher tell me that Aikido has no form and then watching him demonstrate that let me look at another entire level.

You're response to # 3 may beg the question but the answer is that maybe you shouldn't take Aikido or add it as an addendum to other arts since it does take so long to learn.

You're answer to# 5 is that maybe Aikido isn't for you right now.

Aikido is a Japanese budo. For me, the book, The Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba spells the meaning and purpose of Aikido clearly. The Founder didn't mind people taking other arts. I asked my own teacher if I could take other arts and he said to me, "Whatever your do with your time is your own business." For me, that's not the issue. I just hate to see the mindset that we should or even could suggest to the public at large that Aikido is a good mix with other arts for self defense. That, I do disagree with.
Again , sorry for being too much about this. You've heard enough here Grant, to make a good choice and whatever you do will be fine.
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-05-2006, 06:08 AM   #27
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Mike,
1) Who would have time to learn so many arts? One is hard enough.
Very true, its hard to find the time. But that is not to say you need the same level of skill and training in all arts. If I love striking, I still need to learn how to defend myself on the ground, at least to the point that I will have a chance to counter take downs or stand back up. Maybe I could learn bjj once a week or once every other week with my karate 3 times a week.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
2) Who says you would be any good at arts # 2, 3, and 4? I know a guy that has been doing BJJ for years and the other guys just sit on him and yawn while he struggles to get away. I took him down and sat on him myself and I have never done BJJ.
All the more reason to cross train, who is to say you dont suck at aikido. Maybe you spend 10 years in aikido and find out you can't really use any of it. But seriously, I was kidding there. Its not about not being able to gain skill, its about dedication. If you friend has done bjj for years and can't handle people on the ground, he probably hasn't dedicated any time to it. What would you tell someone who has done aikido for years and still sucks at it?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
3) What if you learned 7 martial arts and the other guy pulled a gun from 10 feet away.
I'd give him my wallet. Unless you know a martial art for 10 foot gun disarms?

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
4) What insecurity drives a person to need self defense so badly, that you have to learn 3 or 4 martial arts?
Insecurity? I'm not insecure in the least. Although I dont train martial arts for self defense. I train them for self betterment.(is that a word?). For my sport, I have to be able to strike, throw and grapple. If I didn't train in any of those areas I would not be able to compete in my sport. I really dont think you need 4 arts for self defense. For self defense you need to be familiar with striking, clinching/throwing, and ground work. And most importantly you need to be comfortable with aggression and in good physical shape. If you get out of breath walking up a small flight of stairs, your chances of surviving an encouter with a mugger are slim. If you have never been punched in the face before, your chances of keeping your cool when it happens are also slim.
Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
5) How many people that comment on a thread like this have done Aikido long enough to start to understand it. I have been studying it for 11 years and I am just starting to barely understand what my teacher explains to me and shows me.
This is why I dont feel aikido is good for people who's main concern is self defense. If you are worried about self defense, you should be worried about it now. Not 15 years from now. You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months. It takes years to have an resemblance of skill in aikido.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
6) How many people commenting on a this thread don't actually practice Aikido (You know who you are) or only practiced it at a kyu level?
I am a kyu rank. Of course I dont claim you can't use aikido for self defense. I just claim its not the best course (mainly because of its training methods and time requires to gain skill).
Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
7) Does the philosophy of all these arts make a difference to anyone out there or are we just looking for raw or brute techniques? (By that I mean form with no meaning).
I personally dont care for philosophy. I read it, study it, and make up my own mind. But I really feel that at high levels of any arts all the roads lead to the same place.

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
8) Can the people that believe in the mixed martial art to get a better martial art theory really explain the philosophy of Aikido or has that thought never crossed our minds? This is a most important point because if Aikido has poor groundwork or no punching like karate or lacks anything at all, why would a martial artist like Morihei Ueshiba create something like that? Was he ignorant? Did he lack Ideas? Didn't he realize what a good punch in the nose could do?
I personally think the reason Ueshiba did not include striking and ground work is that his students were accomplished martial artists. He was refining their techniques and showing them a better path. He did not need to teach them how to punch/kick/choke someone on the ground. The problem today is that most aikido students seem to have no real background in martial arts. They jump right into aikido and are not taught the 'basics' of unarmed fighting. And then their instructor will tell them to throw some atemi in. Would it not be proper to teach proper atemi if you are going to advocate it to your students? Ueshiba was also trained on the ground (there are photo's on the web with him doing ground work). Who is to say he didnt' agree with it, but simply didnt' teach it because his students were already good enough on the ground, and aikido is not about teaching someone to fight?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:34 AM   #28
pezalinski
 
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Lightbulb Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Just a thought: Aikido began as a "Mixed Martial Art," so the connections with the roots of many other martial arts are still there...


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

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Old 06-05-2006, 09:25 AM   #29
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Sorry Don, but things didn't work out for you on your post. I hate to tell you this but you just missed reaffirming all my posts. I'll give you a 95% but I can't give you the other 5 points if you made a factual mistake.

You wrote,
"Maybe I could learn bjj once a week or once every other week with my karate 3 times a week."

You'll have to include Aikido in this schedule because that was what I was referencing. I have no problem with mixing karate and BJJ. Also, I don't know that BJJ is so easy, that you can gain proficiency working at it once every other week either. That's only two times a month! I have to give BJJ a little more credit than that. There are some full time BJJ posters on this thread. Is your art that easy guys?

"All the more reason to cross train, who is to say you don't suck at aikido. Maybe you spend 10 years in aikido and find out you can't really use any of it. But seriously, I was kidding there. Its not about not being able to gain skill, its about dedication. If you friend has done bjj for years and can't handle people on the ground, he probably hasn't dedicated any time to it. What would you tell someone who has done aikido for years and still sucks at it?"

Now Don, nothing personal but when I read this, I had to go to your profile to check your age because your thinking was nonsensical here. Sometimes a younger person will make mistakes like this. This is my point you just made! What if you're no good at Aikido. Everyone has acknowledged this art takes a long time. For sure if your going to add aikido to something, you would have to give the more difficult art more time. In the case of someone that isn't good at Aikido (and I have seen people like that), they would lose that aspect of their self defense and the time mixing the arts, at least from the Aikido perspective would be wasted. Then to top it off, we would have even less assurance the individual would be any good at the other arts!

You also said it was all about dedication, not being able to gain skill. I'm not sure this made sense or is a factual statement. My friend was extremely dedicated but as in many situations, couldn't beat some of the people.

You wrote,
"Insecurity? I'm not insecure in the least. Although I don't train martial arts for self defense. I train them for self betterment.(is that a word?). For my sport, I have to be able to strike, throw and grapple. If I didn't train in any of those areas I would not be able to compete in my sport. I really don't think you need 4 arts for self defense. For self defense you need to be familiar with striking, clinching/throwing, and ground work. And most importantly you need to be comfortable with aggression and in good physical shape. If you get out of breath walking up a small flight of stairs, your chances of surviving an encounter with a mugger are slim. If you have never been punched in the face before, your chances of keeping your cool when it happens are also slim"

This makes all my points and contradicts nothing I have said. Thanks

"This is why I don't feel aikido is good for people who's main concern is self defense. If you are worried about self defense, you should be worried about it now. Not 15 years from now. You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months. It takes years to have an resemblance of skill in aikido."

Again, you have made all my points. Thanks
I would say though that I don't agree with this, " You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months."

I hope the legions of boxers, bjj and especially Judo practitioners rise up and defend their arts! A few months!!!! Please, tell me you are joking! My father in law was a professional boxer and I have a friend who was world class boxer who fought for two world championships and they would beg to differ. I also have two judo practitioners in my dojo. I'll ask them if a few months will do the trick. As a matter of fact, I have some grapplers in my Victoria, Texas dojo, I'll ask them about the few months it takes. Sorry but I don't think so about the "few months".

Don you wrote,
"I am a kyu rank. Of course I don't claim you can't use aikido for self defense. I just claim its not the best course (mainly because of its training methods and time requires to gain skill)."
and
"I personally don't care for philosophy. I read it, study it, and make up my own mind. But I really feel that at high levels of any arts all the roads lead to the same place."


I made the first comment about the Aikido rank of those who comment because on a thread like this, your comments carry less weight if you haven't been in the art long enough to know what you're talking about. I am afraid on a board like this one, that is the case much of the time and the other new readers and young Aikidoists don't realize who is commenting. This is a free country and the Board was made for all who respect each other but that doesn't change the fact that in a perfect world, the only people making pronouncements and giving advise on an art should be those who have earned the right to do so by years and years of hard practice. That should be a minimum standard because everyone else have the ability to muddy up the water with statements they can't back up. Please understand though that everyone has the right to comment but that doesn't mean we all should every time.

As for the philosophy, in every art, it is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training. To learn Wing Chun or any art with no regard to it's philosophical base, whatever it is, says a lot about the mindset of that person. To say that all roads lead to Rome is too simplistic because if that was the case, then there would be nothing to discuss.


Your last comment was
"I personally think the reason Ueshiba did not include striking and ground work is that his students were accomplished martial artists. He was refining their techniques and showing them a better path. He did not need to teach them how to punch/kick/choke someone on the ground. The problem today is that most aikido students seem to have no real background in martial arts. They jump right into aikido and are not taught the 'basics' of unarmed fighting. And then their instructor will tell them to throw some atemi in. Would it not be proper to teach proper atemi if you are going to advocate it to your students? Ueshiba was also trained on the ground (there are photo's on the web with him doing ground work). Who is to say he didn't' agree with it, but simply didn't' teach it because his students were already good enough on the ground, and aikido is not about teaching someone to fight?"

Some of your statements here aren't factual and deal with conjecture so I won't comment here. I think this speaks for itself.
Good try Don. I think we agree in the main. Again, all I am saying is that it doesn't make sense when some one writes in about learning self defense quick to glibly add Aikido to BJJ, Karate,and Wing Chun as if though that was attainable for self defense. In my mind, it also makes a huge difference that Aikido wasn't made to be a mixed martial art and that kind of thinking will eventually dilute this art to nothing. It concerns me that the very goal of the Founder will be countermanded by this kind of thinking and the whole reason he created Aikido will be lost in a sea of people in pursuit of a form of personal invincibility that doesn't exist. That was his revelation. That no matter how many techniques you know, no matter how strong you are, no matter how proficient you become at fighting, eventually, you will be defeated. There had to be another way. Aikido was his answer to that problem and at least for him, it led him to another level of thinking and understanding. He understood that if he could get others to see this, that the world would be changed. I hate to see that lost to the lowest part of what we are as humans. Maybe that will happen but I had to say something while I wait for the next thread by someone starting Aikido that needs some quick self defense and the legion of posters who will start showing us why they are doing martial arts.
If anyone finds that perfect, all range, super fighting self defense dojo, I have a feeling they won't like it at all because the people in there will just suck all the oxygen and life out of that place. Your dojo mates will be the most testoserone filled, ego driven people on earth. If you are really a good and sincere person, you will hate that place. The martial arts world is full of dojos like that. Drive by and look at the sign. It says Aikido, Judo, Kung Fu, BJJ, etc., etc. and all the arts are taught by the same person and all the students are learning all the arts.
I can't tell you how many people from those dojos I have met. They are jack of all trades and master of none. They are self centered in the main and want to learn Aikido for all the wrong reasons. I always tell seekers who aren't sure of what art they want. Go to any dojo and look at the sign. If it has listed more than one art, go in there and make sure all the arts are taught by one person each that are dedicated to that art. If all the arts are taught by one person period, then you should go somewhere else because it is highly probable that person won't represent any of the arts properly and what you learn will be severely watered down.

I've said my peace. I'm out of this one and will try to refrain in the future for the patient readers out there who aren't posting who know what I'm talking about. My apologies if I represented you poorly.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-05-2006, 10:14 AM   #30
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Jorge, I enjoyed your post, and while I do have some disagreements with it, I think it adds some very important perspectives to this topic.

The main thing that I think your post misses, is that the orginal poster is specifically looking for something geared toward his occupation. I don't believe he has said what that occupation is directly, but it sounds as if it is some type of law enforcement or at least a job where the staff must occationally be able to restrain people.

If that is the case, I think there are programs you can take that will drill some basics into you in a relatively short period of time. BJJ or aikido might be a good addition to some of those programs, especially if you have numbers on your side (multiple staff for one patient, for instance). We have seen aikido often in use in Law Enforcement for that very reason.

If you want to learn how to brawl or to survive knock down type situations, I think that is different from the category above. There, a mix of basics such as what you see in UFC type events might actually suit well...if you have some native ability. Otherwise, it could be a longer haul than you think.

Aikido, in my mind, is better suited to longer term goals. But I've been wrong before.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-05-2006, 10:46 AM   #31
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Thanks Ron.
I can agree with you on that. If a person takes a short term course in basic skills, that could be beneficial toward a job situation assuming of course that he will have to practice those skills on the job. That is the case with my son, who works as a loss prevention specialist for a major chain store. He frequently has to apprehend and cuff shoplifters and even professional criminals that travel in groups from state to state. He is a nidan in Aikido but has to use the techniques provided by the company to avoid lawsuits. It is a basic skills short term training. While he doesn't like the techniques because they are very restrictive to the one using them, he has in fact gained a proficiency on the job using them.
Of course, that brings up another issue. That is that depending on the job, employers are very nervous about using martial arts techniques on anyone they apprehend because of the threat of injury and lawsuits. My son would be fired if he used Aikido.
Of course, your idea that BJJ could be useful in a short term way could be right.
Thanks for your input, I accept any corrections you would give me.
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-05-2006, 11:04 AM   #32
DonMagee
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I just want to clarify a few things I guess I didn't' communicate properly.

1) My karate example. I was trying to get across the point that you do not have to master every art you cross train in. You can cross train to simply add the idea or concept of arts. Yes you will not master bjj by training it 2 times a month. However you will understand what it means to be on your back and basic ideas and concepts that will allow you to defend yourself against take-downs and possibly stand back up. Of course you will suck at bjj, but thats ok because you are only using it to try to keep the fight standing so you can punch a guy in the face. To make an example about aikido I would say you could study boxing to better understand punching and thus allowing you to work with different kinds of punches and better apply your aikido though using more atemi or learning to defend against much better strikers then you may meet in your aikido class.

2) When I was referring to your friend and lack of bjj skill. I was trying to make two points. The first was that if it is true that some people are just no good at somethings, then they should cross train to find out what they are good at. Rather then waste their time at something they will never gain any skill at. However my second point was that I don't believe this to be true. I believe that with dedication, you can be good at anything. The point I was trying to make is that if it is true that you can be just no good at something, then it is even more important to cross train and find out what you are good at.

3) My point about 3 months of a martial art to be successful at self defense. I will defend this by saying it is true. I will tell you why. Your first night in any 'sport' martial art (judo,boxing, kick-boxing, bjj, etc) you will be sparing. What this means is you will develop timing and technique against a resisting partner from day one. You will be used to how other people (both noob and advanced alike) move and attack you. In the case of striking arts you will learn how to take a punch as well. This means you will learn quickly how to attack and defend. Much faster then arts that do not train in this manner. This means that when faced with an attacker on the street, you will be able to employ these skills much sooner then people who don't train in these sport arts. By good enough I do not mean you will go win a national level judo competition, or are ready to compete in boxing. But I simply mean you will be able to use your skills in a fight with success. With less then 3 months of judo I could throw around my friends in sparing, I could throw around karate guys, wrestlers, other noob judo guys like me, etc. All in fully resistant sparing. This means if a guy on the street trys to engage me, I can throw him just the same as in class (providing he was wearing a nice thick jacket of course ). In fact after i spent just a short time in judo, I found that people with no ground fighting training felt sluggish, weak, and slow. And they made bad decisions about how to move and I could submit them at will. The same goes for my striking training. After a few months of sparing and training in boxing/mauy thai. I found that sparing with new people, and even my friends who used to train that they felt slow and sluggish and telegraphed all their techniques. This is a good sign for being able to defend myself. After a year of aikido, I never got this feeling. After 5+ years of TKD point sparing, I never got this feeling.

My bjj instructor brings in experts in striking and mma pros to work with us and build our striking game. Does training with a former pro boxer make give us good boxing skills? Not really, but it does improve our overall striking ability which helps us win more MMA fights. I feel this directly relates to improvements in self defense.

Will you eventually gain self defense skills and this feeling that I am talking about? I have no doubt you can gain these skills in any martial art given enough time. But if you are worried about self defense, look at months not years. You might need to defend yourself tomorrow, and have no need to defend yourself when your 65.

4) Finally, I do agree with you that schools that claim to teach multiple arts are usually full of it. Just because you train in something does not make you qualified to teach it. I would not want one guy to teach me judo, bjj, karate, aikido, and wing tsun. At the same time, you do need someone who can help you learn to blend your striking, clinch/throw, and ground game together. I learn judo at a judo club, bjj with a focus on MMA at my bjj club. And then my bjj instructor brings in experts to help us build our striking game. Then he uses his exp to help us blend it all back into our game.

I believe that sport and self defense training should be broke into delivery systems. These systems should be trained in all arts.

That way you can have
striking
clinch/throw
ground
internal.

I don't think it really matters if you are doing bjj techniques or aikido techniques if you are working towards the internal ideas of aikido, you are still doing aikido. I do feel that if you are training a 'martial art' that you are assuming to need the skills to defend yourself (why else would you want martial skills?). If that is the case, you need to have all your bases covered. Unfortunately, its not normally possible to have all your bases covered in most modern day dojos.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-05-2006, 02:25 PM   #33
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Lots of good stuff here!

Here is why I made the recommendations to Grant that I made:

He asked a very specific question about training for a military situation.

Bottomline, I have seen competent fighters produced from our Army School with little or no martial background in 60 Days at our School house in Fort Benning. It can and is being done.

I studied for 12 years in TMA and had a hard time holding my own for a while against two of them. It is a hard pill to swallow, but it is the truth.

Now, that said...where they competent Martial Artist?

No, while they had a good base, and had substanial skills that would give them an edge over any normal/typical shodan in aikido, that does not mean that they would even remotely do well in a normal school.

It is all about the focus and intent of your training. There is nothing wrong wtih TMA, it is just not the most efficient way to develop the specific fighting skills that you might need in a hand to hand situation in combat.

It really does not take a great deal of skill in order to learn to fight or to grapple for a combat situation.
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Old 06-05-2006, 02:44 PM   #34
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
The main thing that I think your post misses, is that the orginal poster is specifically looking for something geared toward his occupation. I don't believe he has said what that occupation is directly, but it sounds as if it is some type of law enforcement or at least a job where the staff must occationally be able to restrain people.
Military:
Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
I'm a soldier and I'm heading overseas in a few months for my third tour.
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Old 06-05-2006, 02:53 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

ah, cool, thanks.

B,
R

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Old 06-06-2006, 08:02 PM   #36
Gene Skiff
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I'm relatively new posting to this board, but I've been lurking awhile. What I've seen is that there is a lot of polarization on just about any given subject: classic Aikido vs Nihon Goshin, training styles, you name it. I believe that the differences in us all allow for different perspectives. One may want to devote their whole life to one art, while another will want to sample and learn many without ever "perfecting" one.

My bottom line, have fun, do my best and hope it's just for fun.

That being said, I study Nihon Goshin Aikido 5 hours per week and mixed Japanese Jiu Jitsu (Budoshin, Aiki, etc) 2 hours a week from the same Sensei. I find that they are highly complimentary, especially as my Sensei's prime goal is good AIkido.

Peace.
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Old 06-07-2006, 02:41 AM   #37
aikispike
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

If you wanted to compliment your aikido with a non-self defensive art jodo is great fun.

Michael

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Hi all.

Anyways, I'm interested in complimenting my aikido with another martial arts (though keeping aikido as my primary interest)
Does anyone have any reccomendations on a self defense orientated martial arts that could possibly compliment my aikido? Maybe to fill in for some of aikidos weaker areas such as being dragged to the ground or if i'm stuck in a close quarters situation with someone?

--
Michael Kimeda
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Old 06-07-2006, 02:52 AM   #38
xuzen
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Michael Kimeda wrote:
If you wanted to compliment your aikido with a non-self defensive art jodo is great fun. Michael
Aikido + Judo + Jodo = Undefeatable.

Boon.

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Old 06-07-2006, 09:07 AM   #39
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
FMA: Fillipino martial arts (kali, escrims, arnis).

Its he stuff Inosanto taught Lee.
Ah, that FMA. Thanks for the clarification.

Wanted to ask you a few questions. And I'm not expecting any answers, so if the questions are not what you want to answer, I'm fine with that. Some people don't like to talk about their backgrounds online. I'm starting training in kali/silat and just wondered about some things.

How long have you been studying FMA? How has it affected your aikido and your aikido training? Or if you started aikido first, how did that affect your FMA?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:10 AM   #40
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I've taken a number of martial arts that were supposedly good and complete martial arts. If I got beat in some engagement, I usually figured it was because I didn't know the martial art that well, I wasn't in good enough strength-shape, etc.,.... I never had the idea that the martial art I spent so much time choosing was lacking in something that I could only get somewhere else. Weird to see so many people suggesting other arts for self-defense. How about "get stronger and learn more Aikido"?

Mike
Hi Mike,
The more I progress in Aikido, the more I realize that it is (or can be) a total and complete martial art. You don't have to go to BJJ or MMA to "round out" your training.

But I am starting on other training because it is something that is interesting to me not because I think it'll fill in any gaps in my Aikido training. In fact, I think my aikido training will actually help me a lot in my kali training.

Mark
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:14 AM   #41
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Mike,
I thought then whole world was going crazy! Thanks for that drink of water in the Aiki desert! I bring this issue up on every thread that talks like this but I decided to drop it this time but it was still driving me crazy. It's odd to see so many people just responding "normally" to this idea. It's an acknowledgment that there is no complete martial art anywhere if good self defense is everything out there combined!
Well, I didn't take the original question as you did. I took it that the person wanted some martial art that would be complimentary to Aikido. That's a whole different world than someone asking for another martial art to take because Aikido wasn't a complete system.

Mark
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:31 AM   #42
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Maybe what I'm trying to say is that it frustrates me the way we so glibly start recommending a combining of arts without realizing that couldn't possibly be the answer to Grant's situation. I will,say that if Grant can find an art that will train him in more than one style of fighting, take that but don't take three arts! At least not for the purpose of added proficiency because I submit that if you become proficient on one of those, you will drop proficiency in Aikido and probably never realize it because you can't know what you never found out.

In short, I say take a martial art you can believe in and leave Aikido out if you think it lacks what you need. The art of Aikido is in danger of being lost if we use it as one of three or four choices for raw self defense. Train in the arts for their character enriching and transformative features and learn some self defense in the long haul. In the short haul, a gun will work but just being alert, staying out of dangerous places and working to stay out of trouble will do a lot better for you than any three or four martial arts combined.
Best,
Reading further, I think I mistook the original question. But my answer was in regards to complimenting aikido and not adding to it. In other words, what martial arts would not diametrically oppose Aikido training. What martial arts would not detract from Aikido training. Sort of that kind of complimenting.

I do agree with what you state above.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:33 AM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Mark Murray wrote:

Quote:
The more I progress in Aikido, the more I realize that it is (or can be) a total and complete martial art. You don't have to go to BJJ or MMA to "round out" your training. But I am starting on other training because it is something that is interesting to me not because I think it'll fill in any gaps in my Aikido
Hi Mark,

You are correct you don't need to go to any other art to round out your training in aikido. That said, there are other perspectives and methodologies on the same theme that can enhance your skills in budo in general. It depends on your interest, as you state, and your goals.

No one martial art can answer every question or accomplish every goal of the student. Budo is a individual endeavor that each of us must figure out how to proceed. But, you are correct, nothing here that anyone has said, IMO, should equate to aikido being incomplete. Aikido can be complete for some, and not for others.
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:42 AM   #44
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Thanks Ron.
I can agree with you on that. If a person takes a short term course in basic skills, that could be beneficial toward a job situation assuming of course that he will have to practice those skills on the job. That is the case with my son, who works as a loss prevention specialist for a major chain store. He frequently has to apprehend and cuff shoplifters and even professional criminals that travel in groups from state to state. He is a nidan in Aikido but has to use the techniques provided by the company to avoid lawsuits. It is a basic skills short term training. While he doesn't like the techniques because they are very restrictive to the one using them, he has in fact gained a proficiency on the job using them.
Of course, that brings up another issue. That is that depending on the job, employers are very nervous about using martial arts techniques on anyone they apprehend because of the threat of injury and lawsuits. My son would be fired if he used Aikido.
Of course, your idea that BJJ could be useful in a short term way could be right.
Thanks for your input, I accept any corrections you would give me.
Best,
I never knew that certain companies have certain techniques that are official use only. Hey, you get to learn something new every day.

On that topic (sorry for jumping off topic here), I wonder what would happen if the person being apprehended got very violent to the point of life-threatening and your son did use other techniques besides the official ones? In that instance, I think, knowing a martial art would be very beneficial. Hopefully you'd never have to use it, but like the old adage ... I'd rather have it and not have to use it than not have it and need it.

Mark
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:55 AM   #45
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Mark Murray wrote:



Hi Mark,

You are correct you don't need to go to any other art to round out your training in aikido. That said, there are other perspectives and methodologies on the same theme that can enhance your skills in budo in general. It depends on your interest, as you state, and your goals.

No one martial art can answer every question or accomplish every goal of the student. Budo is a individual endeavor that each of us must figure out how to proceed. But, you are correct, nothing here that anyone has said, IMO, should equate to aikido being incomplete. Aikido can be complete for some, and not for others.
Hi Kevin,
Agreed. To paraphrase one of my instructors when asked what the best martial art was, he would reply something along the lines of Whichever one you love or are good at.

Budo is a lifelong personal journey and can encompass either one art or multiple ones. Aikido is one of the core arts for me in Budo. My cousin's choice is JKD. Which goes right along with your last sentence.

But, if you throw in a time-frame of say 3 months to get a very good grasp on realistic self-defense, how many would put Aikido on the list?

Mark
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:59 AM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

I would hope at that point that all bets are off. However, lawyers can better give advice on the whole escalation of force issue. It is a tough one for sure!

One thing for certain, as your skills increase, that is the ability to control a situation, the more responsibility you have to use minmal force.

If the plantif can establish that you had other options that were available that were less damaging, then it doesn't matter what you did or didn't do, you just lost!

I think the techniques they probably use allow for one to establish a degree of objective reasonableness, so all will understand how a prudent and reasonable person should respond.
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Old 06-07-2006, 10:04 AM   #47
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Don't mix Aikido with other martial arts there is nothing wrong with it as it is. If you have competent instruction your Aikido should be fine, like a fine single malt scotch it does not mix well with stuff, you just ruin the scotch.

Now that is not to say you should not practice other arts, I believe you should, I do and have for over 40 years. They help me develop a better me and that helps my Aikido. Be careful you do not start confusing that other stuff with your Aikido. This is a big problem now days. Incompetent instruction leaves people lacking in skill and feeling inadequate and so they compensate by adding stuff and pretty soon you got Real Aikido or Aikido for the Street or Combat Aikido or some such crap because it just takes to long and to much commitment to get the real stuff. The biggest problem is homogenization and not studying more than one art at a time. Many of us have chosen Aikido because we believe it transcends the other arts. Many of us come well prepared with martial art and military experience. We have spent decades training with Shihan level instruction. The base arts that were the physical foundation to, and gave rise to, Aikido are still around. No matter how hard some people want you to believe it those arts are not Aikido on steroids. Some people study Aikido for 5 or 10 years (or less) under mid level instruction and believe they are authorities on Aikido however when their diluted Aikido breaks down they seek quick patches to the problems and pass on that on to students they shouldn't be teaching in the first place. These patches generally come from other arts they study because they are at hand and they are sometimes things they do well. Because they want to make people think they do Aikido well they call these patches Aikido. The bastardization of Aikido continues.

So in conclusion I say study other arts but don't mix them. That does not do credit to any of the arts.

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Old 06-07-2006, 10:07 AM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

If someone designed a course around specific techniques geared toward self defense based on the options as a whole that aikido provides, I could see that working for short term self defense. It wouldn't be very fancy, and I don't think it would stand up to stress testing by say, proffessional grapplers, but it could cover some basic points that would be helpfull in the average encounter. If there is an average encounter. I would likely want to include the kind of stress testing you see in the model mugging programs or something similar.

But aikido as it is commonly taught...I would have to point someone elsewhere for a basic 3 month self defense course.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-07-2006, 10:39 AM   #49
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

This isn't the first thread on mixing martial arts, so please check through other threads, you might find them helpful. My belief is that training in multiple martial arts can be confusing; some people can do it, some people can't do it. If you are one of the people that can train and separate different martial arts, God bless you.

I find it interesting that we consider "cross-training" in martial arts that the founder trained in while creating aikido. Many of the early shihan had competent fighting skills before beginning aikido, and many of the best aikido people today came to aikido after other martial arts or training. Yet we look away from aikido to provide basic knowledge of fundamental fighting skills to students. I believe part of the search for other training is related to a degenerating curriculum of basic skills in aikido that require students to find other training to satisfy their needs.

Therefore, I believe the question first should be "Why do I feel I am missing something from my aikido training?" before you ask if you should train elsewhere...
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Old 06-07-2006, 10:50 AM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts

Good comments and observations Dennis. I would tend to agree with you, I am one of those "5 to 10 year" guys you are referring to.

In my particular situation I don't have access to competent aikido instruction these days, and I am studying/teaching BJJ. I use aikido methods all the time in my teaching, how can i not? It is my base art and I think principally at least it has lots to offer as a methodology.

I also frame everything I do and evaluate it from an "aikido" mentality, that is, I try to do the samethings I do in BJJ that I do in aikido. Actually the principles are EXACTLY the same, but they are not stressed in BJJ, it is assumed that you will implicity learn them, vice explicity as we teach in aikido.

That said, I have studied aikido long enough to appreciate the nuance of the art and what it is trying to teach. I am a 2nd Kyu at best in the study of aikido, so don't presume to be able to be knowledgeable enough about it to even begin to teach it!

While I use aikido skills and methods in what I do, it is not aikido, nor would I presume it to be. I did try and offer aikido to a few guys that said they were interested in aikido, what would happen is that because of my skill level, I found just what you said, things would migrate into the stuff I do to fill the gaps!

So, to me, I study aikido (when I can these days), and I study BJJ and MMA. I see them all related and I am growing as an aikidoka because of these things, but as you state, they are not aikido. On the surface it would seem the logic argument is there, but it really isn't.

I will probably end up teaching one of those "mutt" arts you are talking about, as I think there are some good methodologies out there that do much better at bridging the gaps that "I" think exist in aikido for many of us. Also, I do believe that Aikido should be influenced and open to outside things or it is in danger of becomng inbred and extinct. BUT, this is another subject all together, and even though it may seem I am countering what I just said above about outside influences, it is NOT a contradiction, but a different perspective and application.
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