Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-11-2006, 02:22 PM   #1
Saturn
 
Saturn's Avatar
Dojo: Sudbury Aikikai & Tai Chi Centre
Location: Sudbury
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 64
Canada
Offline
Evil Eyes Aikido Strengtheing

Yonkyo is my favorite wrist lock , it is painful and effective. I have taken to practicing Aikido off mat like Karate. Maki training is good, and now since I am an Aikidoist I am practicing Yonkyo on a broom stick, I have almost come to the point of breaking the broomstick, then I will move onto rebar. This will be effective in street combat. My question is, does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.

Stop thinking and the mind begins to think for itself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 05:23 PM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Not to get into a "street effective" argument by any means, but I'd spend my time learning how to fight on the street with a fully resistant opponents instead of "strengthing" and "toughening". In my experiences there is much more to it than a strong grip. Frankly, I find that Yonkyo does not work so well in "street combat". Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, and Sankyo work well, but I have had no use for yonkyo.

Not saying that it won't work, because obviously with the right circumstances it will, but it is not a "high percentage" technique.

I'd recommend you find some guys that do different arts and experiment with different situations, timing, distance, weapons etc if you haven't done this already.

Not really sure what you'd accomplish bending rebar. The dynamics of it does not in anyway really replicate any part of the human body. The diameter is smaller than a forearm and there is no moving body attached to it either so fulcrum points are different than a body or arm.

Not trying to argue with you...just offer a counter opinion from my own experiences...take it for what it is worth!

Good luck!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 08:07 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

IMHO, if the streets are what you are toughening up for, work on your mind. It is the intent and intensity of the mind that is more important than the strength of your grip.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 08:19 AM   #4
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Hi Trevor,

let me the one, who supports you and your exercises.

I love those pins on broomsticks - although I prefer sticks of gardening tools, which are thicker.

And after years of hard training, I got to such a perfection, that none of the stick could move after being pinned, as hard as they try.

Next month I'll start doing exercises with multiple sticks.

Maybe a bit ironical, but not offensive at all

Cordially Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 09:00 AM   #5
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

hmmm, aikido toughening.


Train more.


Train smarter.


Find someone who can help you train kokyu, as opposed to 'normal, everyday usage strength'.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 01:36 PM   #6
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Trevor Wolfe wrote:
Does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.
What the other posters said.

But if it's not overemphasized, there's nothing wrong with toughening. Yang has several methods in his books on Chin-Na (Taiji Chin Na : The Seizing Art of Taijiquanby Jwing-Ming Yang, et al.).

My instructor in Japan used to punch me in the stomach a lot. Learned to take a bit of a punch and it improved my IRIMI.

He had a fearsome grip, too. Got it by practicing SUBURI with heavy oaken BOKKEN 350 x/day.

Osensei used to pound his forehead against trees to have a good head butt.

Caveat emptor.

Let us know what you decide on and how it goes.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 01:50 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Yeah, especially that head butting trees thingy.... Hey Don...

Best,
Ron

PS Say, does pounding my head on my desk at work count? Aikido Strengthening -- Solving Network Problems with your Head...maybe I could market that??

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 04-12-2006 at 01:52 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 07:25 PM   #8
Saturn
 
Saturn's Avatar
Dojo: Sudbury Aikikai & Tai Chi Centre
Location: Sudbury
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 64
Canada
Offline
Evil Eyes Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Oh my god his forehead, thats rough.

Stop thinking and the mind begins to think for itself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 05:23 AM   #9
Mark Mueller
Location: Louisville Kentucky
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 161
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Osensei used to pound his forehead against trees to have a good head butt.
Ahh.....that would explain all the weird doka!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 09:12 AM   #10
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

- throwing up bricks and catching them with your fingers (improves grip strength)
- bokken cuts
- someone told me about this: holding a very heavy iron bar at waist level with both hands and then rotating left and right with hips (builds hip strength)

I think body conditioning IS a useful aspect of martial training. In fact I think all sorts of practise outside the dojo are useful if you are focussing on developing a certain aspect and are aware of how it is helping. Ueshiba also used to carry an old woman to work to build up his leg strength.

Ideally we'd all have great technical skill, but I think power, dedication and determination can make up for a large part of technical skill in real situations.

I've always thought of yonkyo as more of a 'restraining' type pin for semi-compliant people or prior to a real conflict (ikkyo, irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi I think are the most serviceable from very aggressive uncontrolled attacks).

P.S. the force needed to break the broom stick could actually be quite low, depending on how and where the other end is supported. (e.g. if I just push the tip of the broomstick against a wall do yonkyo on the other end, breaking it is easy).

Good luck with novel training ideas!

Last edited by ian : 04-13-2006 at 09:17 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 11:00 AM   #11
Koren Ko
 
Koren Ko's Avatar
Dojo: Nihon Aikido Kenkyukai? Yoshikan style
Location: Penang
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 26
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

So, we need additional exercises and punishments-tough-up to build up more muscles and durablilty in order withstand sudden impact such as a punch?

Well, I have an idea to tough up your Temple area.
Just jump into middle of air, while a ball is kicked over your head. Try to take the sudden shock from the powerful goal on your head, in the temple. Trust me, I was limped for a total 10 minutes and pretty dizzy for a week! (Dun really try that, you dun wanna walk like a drunk for a week.)

Best way to toughen up one's durablity is to get a fellow high-rank karate-ka friend to train you.
One, they know better how to do it. They can punch/kick you in certain places without actually hurting you.
Two, they have ways to make sure you will not get injury, especially the internal one. And patch up any immediate injury quickly.

However, most Karate exponents (Lower Rank or intermediate) can't help you to fall safely.

Just my 2 cents thought.

Last edited by Koren Ko : 04-13-2006 at 11:02 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 03:25 PM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

nothing wrong with conditioning and toughening. Just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons and have the correct expectations on what it is actually doing for you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2006, 06:31 PM   #13
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Trevor Wolfe wrote:
I am practicing Yonkyo on a broom stick, I have almost come to the point of breaking the broomstick, then I will move onto rebar..
Only in regard to your choice of building materials: I assume that you'll use a piece of rebar similar in length to a broomstick so that you'll be able to leverage it against a wall for resistance. If that's the case, I'd skip the rebar because it's so flexible and it's so narrow. I'd recommend something more along the lines of a 1 1/2" or 2" diameter black pipe. It will not give like rebar. Plus, you can put it in a vise, heat it, and use the vise to warp it more to the shape of wrist.

Better yet, you could get several different sizes of pipe so that you train with many size "wrists."

Just my opinion on building materials.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 02:14 AM   #14
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Just a good and simple (wrist) strengthening, you can nearly do wherever you want:
Just use the wrist warming exercises - nikyo undo, sankyo undo, kotegaeshi undo or just hold one wrist with the other hand and actively twist it (the other hand just resists.

Many dojo do it as joint warming to avoid injuries, so only one hand is active, the other one is passive and relaxed.

If you just use strength and resist as far as you do not harm yourself, it is a good strengthening exercise.

I do not know, if this was in Saotome'S book " Aikido and the harmony of nature", but therre you will find others, mostly paired exercises.

Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 09:56 AM   #15
Dan Gould
Dojo: Cilfynydd, Pontypridd
Location: Abercynon, Wales
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 49
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Kevin - What would be the "right reasons" for tempering your body?

Lynn - How do you train your mind for that?

Kevin again - wouldn't it be very dangerous to practice on a fully resistant uke?

And anyone - what's rebar?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2006, 10:00 AM   #16
Saturn
 
Saturn's Avatar
Dojo: Sudbury Aikikai & Tai Chi Centre
Location: Sudbury
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 64
Canada
Offline
Evil Eyes Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Yes, at my school we do practice wrist strengthening daily during pre-class warm-up. Also I have read and picked a few choice internal tips and stuff to help with extension and stability and all, however when I see a technique that could be made even more devastating by simple home practice, like the Yonkyo,I try it. After all as anyone whose had yonkyo put on would know, it hurts. But what if you could become strong enough at it to snap the forearm in half, or take a bundle of sticks and practice sankyo until the stick twist into splinters.

I can see alot of people on Aikiweb would not agree much with this, but then look at people in Kung Fu they slap stacks of bricks in half. Are they planning on killing someone-no, probably not. Being strong ought to be enough when striking -right. But why not maximize yourfine tuning- I'm not planning on twisting someones wrist off, but I am in Aikido, so now I have the freedom to experiment and paint whatever picture I wish to paint with what I can learn now. So why not.

Last edited by Saturn : 04-14-2006 at 10:02 AM.

Stop thinking and the mind begins to think for itself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 09:11 PM   #17
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Dan Gould wrote:
And anyone - what's rebar?
Rebar is a steel bar used to reinforce concrete. Most of the time it is found in smaller diameters ranging from approximately 3/8" to 2".

Home Depot, Lowe's, and other home improvement type stores sell them and can easily buy them in 4' lengths.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2006, 10:16 PM   #18
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Shiko stamp.
Spear thrusting,
and generally any kind of r3al tanren training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 09:38 AM   #19
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Dan Gould wrote:
Lynn - How do you train your mind for that?
My favorite subject.
The first step in training is emptying.

Face the fear-based fantasies you have in your mind about confrontation and aggression in the real world.

Too many people try to strengthen their body while having a weak mind.

Too many people try to fill there minds with positive affirmations without first doing some house cleaning and getting rid of the negative visualization and self-talk about how you stop yourself from being effective that may be based on past experienced.

After you empty, then fill. Then keep that mind set while increasing the intent and intensity of the physical training. The get out of the way and trust your unconscious conditioning.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2006, 08:20 PM   #20
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,170
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengthening

If you rely on strength you will always find some one stronger, who has practiced on a thicker broomstick or rebar.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2006, 12:43 PM   #21
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 242
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Trevor:

I actually fractured a fellow's forearm doing dai-yonkyo (or yonkyo on the other side of the forearm from what is normal). Even when I was applying very severe yonkyo pressure to his arm he felt no pain significant enough to cause him to yield to my dai-yonkyo. Being fairly strong, and believing at the time that yonkyo was primarily a pain-oriented technique, I increased my yonkyo force until his arm broke. Even then he felt only a moderate burning sensation in his arm and continued to practice for the next half hour. It was only sometime later when his forearm swelled up and began to ache badly that he went and had it examined and discovered it was broken.

I never did manage to force this guy to the floor with the pain of my yonkyo. He just wasn't as sensitive to the pain of this technique as others are. My point in sharing all of this is that yonkyo is not effective because it hurts. Effective yonkyo has, as I've explained in class to you and your fellow students, far more to do with bending and projecting through uke's elbow than with crushing uke's wrist. As well, powerful yonkyo pressure originates from your center, not your hands. You don't need an iron grip to do yonkyo well.

Regards, your Sensei.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2006, 06:48 AM   #22
Saturn
 
Saturn's Avatar
Dojo: Sudbury Aikikai & Tai Chi Centre
Location: Sudbury
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 64
Canada
Offline
Evil Eyes Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Well, hello Sensei, suprised to hear from you on this. Geez, that really had to have hurt that guy in the morning. Your advice is always accepted, after all you are my teacher and know more than I do. I could see there being people with a natural immunity to the yonkyo pressure point, and well I guess since I'm still so new to Aikido I focus alot on strength and such, and always forget that the takedowns are made by unbalancing. Probably why I can never throw you or the seniors when they decide they don't want to be thrown.

Anyhow I don't think it really matters but finally I got my hands on rebar and bent it, sure hurt, and broke the stick so I guess thats all over with.

See you in class,
Trevor

Stop thinking and the mind begins to think for itself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2006, 03:44 PM   #23
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Trevor Wolfe wrote:
My question is, does anyone have any other Aikido toughening ideas.
I read an aikido book recently that suggested doing pushups on your wrists (as opposed to knuckles or palms).

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2006, 04:28 PM   #24
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
I read an aikido book recently that suggested doing pushups on your wrists (as opposed to knuckles or palms).
Done those, they hurt.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2006, 02:42 AM   #25
Ian Upstone
Location: Sussex
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 80
Offline
Re: Aikido Strengtheing

I've seen folks who seem to take great delight in causing their uke as much pain as possible and conversly, demonstrating how much pain they can take with wrist locks. All, probably I'm guessing, to demonstrate how very 'martial' they are being.

My personal priority when applying these sort of techniques is that it is tactically sound - i.e. the lock or control buckles ukes structure - they can't get up and can't reach you with their free hand etc.

I'm all for strengthening as form of injury prevention, but strengthening in order to make your techniques more effective? I think it's counter-productive to learning efficient technique. If you want to get through a door, you open it rather than bash it down.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Instructor got mad because I didnt fall actoman Training 192 05-02-2012 02:55 AM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
Aikido: Its Spirit and Technique TAnderson General 0 02-27-2007 07:50 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:38 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate