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Old 05-15-2006, 05:07 PM   #1
Austin Power
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If it doesn't work just do it harder?

As i have mentioned in a previous post, i have some real problems with wrist locks when i uke. The fact of the matter is they just don't work sankyo, nikkyo, kote gaeshi etc all they really do is bend me out of shape slightly and not alot more.
Despite this, and due to some advice i had i make sure if wrist locks are being practiced i tell those around the situation in case they think they aren't doing it right and go through my wrists totally.
Recently i was training with alot of dan grades on the mat and they decided to practice sankyo, as adviced i told the 4th dan in my group the situation to get a response of "you shouldn't tell people that" so obviously i come to uke for the said dan grade and he locks in sankyo as hard as he can while i just look at him gone out. Then for about an extra 10 - 15 seconds he steadily applies pressure to see if he can actually get it to work with his eyes getting ever wider as i don't make a squeak. Obviously at this point i am a little narked and even more so when i get told i should have gone wth the technique (if i can't feel it how can i go with it). Previously i have had sensei modify wrist locks to incorporate the whole arm which is effective and does the job quite effectively.

Now despite the long preamble the point i am trying to get at is do i fake it for the point of ettiquette or do i carry on regardless?

Cheers

Austin
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Old 05-15-2006, 06:35 PM   #2
Ketsan
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

I have this "problem" too. My joints started out stupidly supple and Aikido has only made them even more so. Even sankyo done on the fore arm only produces a mild pain (compared to what it used to) and my shoulder joints will rotate to the extent that people get quite worried and point out to sensei that its not natural.
I tap when I feel that an average person would or at a point where it used to hurt when I was less supple.
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Old 05-15-2006, 07:26 PM   #3
eyrie
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

That's coz said dan grade has no concept of "taking the center".

Ignatius
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Old 05-15-2006, 09:16 PM   #4
NagaBaba
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

"Wrists locks" don't exist in independently from whole body. If one tries to apply a lock only to a wrist it is not effective at all. Ikkyo, nikyo ..etc involve whole skeletal locking. With ‘normal' ppl it's quite easy; with some of you guys tori must apply modified techniques. It is very good for the black belts to experience such uke, in fact you are very precious uke. I met one friend with such capacities, and every time I'm very grateful to be able to practice with him.

But be careful, even you guys you have your limits.

Nagababa

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Old 05-16-2006, 12:01 AM   #5
Upyu
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Lol.. looks like Teo already took the words outa my mouth.
Actually I'll fudge and say they have no concept of "locking" the center :-D

After several years of joint lock practice pretty much everyone becomes hard to lock. That's when you need to start asking some more fundamental questions
And I'm not including the "technique" variety.
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Old 05-16-2006, 04:26 AM   #6
Austin Power
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Thanks for the interesting replies guys. I am of the mind that the technique should be modified as if it happens in a real situation you aren't going to get to stand there with a suprised look on your face for very long. Also if uke with freakishly long tendons are hard to come by actually seeing/experiencing a modified technique is good further learning on my side, i would be stuck if i met another one of me
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Old 05-16-2006, 04:29 AM   #7
Mark Freeman
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:

But be careful, even you guys you have your limits.
Paul,
it seems that you practice with people that do not understand some of the 'finer' points of aikido. They are stuck focussing on trying to make you move with brute force. As has been mentioned in the replies so far, they are not 'controlling your centre' or from where I come from 'respecting or controlling your ki'.
In the right hands, you can be moved. Szczepan's warning above should be headed. If you get used to standing as an immovable object, challenging your partner to make the technique work, then you will lose the ability to make good ukemi. If you resist someone who really knows how to apply the technique you may very well wish that you hadn't cultivated the 'immovable' body.

regards,
Mark

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Old 05-16-2006, 04:38 AM   #8
Amir Krause
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Every technique has several variations, proper application of some of those should make the lock apply to the relevant joint and from it to the rest of your body, this is an important addition to taking the balance and center of Uke.

The common approach in my dojo would be for you not to fake it, and you would have been likely to expect several Dan grades working with you one after the other, each trying to find his own solution to your flexibility. You should be aware of your real limits, and be certain you are not damaging your joints without feeling the pain (each person is different and in some cases, one can in cure "corrosive" damage without feeling the pain), if the latter is the case, you should respond (as though you were faking it) to protect yourself.

Amir
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Old 05-16-2006, 06:39 AM   #9
Nick Simpson
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Your not impervious to techniques, their just not doing em right

As everyone has said, the technique should be modified to suit the situation. Personally, I dont see the problem with it, sankyo's not there to hurt someone, it's there to move em, really they might want to try leading you through your elbow. just remember to keep light on your feet, some people have the tendancy to whack things on when you are immobile and cannot possibly move with it...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-16-2006, 06:50 AM   #10
seank
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

I find that sankyo done just on the hand/fingers/forearm doesn't really do much to me anymore (I'm guessing I've become more flexible and less reactive to the technique in the form), however the same technique done with nage "projecting" through the arm has an immediate effect.

I'm not sure how or why this works, but its amazing the difference from such a minor variation...esoterically you could probably chalk it up to experience and application.
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:05 AM   #11
Qatana
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

I"m another one. It is very difficult to sankyo me by trying to get into my wrist. Fortunately my sempai DO know how to get to my center through my shoulder, not my wrist.

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:18 AM   #12
Nick P.
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

"Now despite the long preamble the point i am trying to get at is do i fake it for the point of etiquette or do i carry on regardless?"

Depends......
All the points above are of course bang-on, but if your dojo/sensei would prefer that you try and apply the technique being demonstrated as it was just shown by the teacher, then nage should try as best they can (and if they can't? I don't have the answer for that, your sensei does, not us...) and nage should "go along", to a point.

If however you are being taught to adapt or flat out change techniques when the first/second/eighth try "doesn't work", then nage should adapt and uke should resist to the point of it being a learning experience for both parties; neither a fighter nor a loose-noodle should they be.

What does your teacher expect of nage and uke when techniques don't work?

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Old 05-16-2006, 09:51 AM   #13
MikeLogan
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

This thread feels like a bit of deja vu. All we need is for Paul's sensei to tell him he has no control.
Quote:
Paul wrote:
all they really do is bend me out of shape slightly and not alot more.
If by this you mean to say that you don't feel any 'persuasion' because you were flexible enough to allow such a position to manifest in your person, then you are actually putting yourself in the way of greater bodily harm.
Working on kaitenage with a new guy at my dojo more often resulted in my standing behind him with his arm bent straight up his back. Sure I did something wrong, as we were both upright, but I owned his arm, even if he wasn't feeling it (he's a flexible guy too).
The obligatory statement is now that none of us were there to see it, and we can't say who did what with just paul's word. All we can ask is if he through his "flexibility" placed himself in greater bodily danger. That's an if

At any rate, 1,2,3, and 4th dans should know to be using your entire body when locking up one of your joints, just like your teacher. Is it them, or are you letting your body chain move so as to prevent it being 'locked up' ?

michael.
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Old 05-16-2006, 03:38 PM   #14
Austin Power
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

I see your point in the "chain move", but no i was standing stock still and allowing the application of the technique. What i was expecting though was it to be applied to a point then brought into the pin as despite the fact sankyo may not work it does have the effect of taking my posture, unless i get given enough time to settle again whilst nage is cranking away at my wrist.

I have always found the happy medium with the fact i can allow nage to practice wrist locks on me faster than with other uke's and although its ineffective the whole technique isn't.

As to greater bodily danger i really can't see it unless someone is that intent on applying it they throw their whole bodyweight into it and then we are well past practice as even i with my limited skill could do major damage to someone using that particular hold and my full weight
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Old 05-16-2006, 03:58 PM   #15
MaryKaye
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

My husband is like this: it is truly difficult to do anything to him with sankyo or koteoroshi. This is actually a great learning opportunity for nage. By the time I was finally able to do sankyo semi-reliably with him I had learned a lot about connecting my hands to my center, because nothing I could do with my arms or shoulders had a chance. (Got a lot of weird looks from friends and relations while we figured this out....)

You do want to choose your partners carefully for any kind of resistance work. One response I've encountered to a non-functioning sankyo is to crush the offending hand! As nage had big strong hands, this was quite unpleasant. Basically you never want to put partner in the position of deciding between having the technique fail and injuring you, unless you trust him to choose having the technique fail. Not everyone will.

Mary Kaye
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Old 05-16-2006, 07:33 PM   #16
eyrie
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

The other side of the coin of course is that as uke, you should probably be more sensitive and allow the force to be transmitted to your center so that nage catches the feeling... it should be taken as a learning opportunity for both. Not just nage.

Ignatius
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Old 05-17-2006, 03:56 AM   #17
Austin Power
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

thats a good point Ignatious, but i think most nage become a bit blinkered to everything bar the wrist when sankyo fails, i am getting of the mind unless nage hears a yelp they don't think they are doing it properly
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Old 05-17-2006, 06:23 AM   #18
kokyu
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

I think the comments about connecting to uke's center and off-balancing him are the most important.

However, there are some subtle adjustments to techniques that might get a yelp... for example, in kotegaeshi, you could try sliding along the knuckles instead of just pressing down.

The other thing for nage to try is using body weight... I remember a senior citizen doing kotegaeshi on me... he did a fast tenkai and used his momentum and body weight for the move... that really hurt.. I thought he had broken my wrist

Trying to put more muscle into the move makes me step back and think that I'm probably doing something wrong.
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Old 05-17-2006, 06:48 AM   #19
eyrie
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

It's like trying to solve a problem. The parameters of the problem are familiar, but the variables are different. And because you're carrying the baggage of your experience, it is hard to see an alternative solution - like not seeing the forest for the trees. Blinkered? Tunnel vision?

Back to the original question and a corollary: if it doesn't work, try harder?

Sometimes it helps to start from first principles and approach the problem differently. Find another way to hone in on the central issue.

Or as my teacher would say... "beginner's mind".

Ignatius
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Old 05-17-2006, 05:09 PM   #20
Austin Power
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Well tonight put some things into practice, firstly relaxing into it helps alot if just to give nage the centre and allow the takedown (kotegaeshi this time) however this time i got moaned at for giving in too easily. Granted this was from people i have trained with for a while who like the challenge of placing me in an effective lock, but on the upside it was certainly a learning experience for me.
The main realisation of whether any of the locks go on fully or at all is irrelevant if you have their centre, so at least from a small debacle i have got to see a bit more of the bigger picture and any learning experience is a good one.

Austin
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:53 PM   #21
xuzen
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

If it doesn't work... try unbalancing uke first (lesson primero uno = KUZUSHI).

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:09 PM   #22
RebeccaM
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
The other side of the coin of course is that as uke, you should probably be more sensitive and allow the force to be transmitted to your center so that nage catches the feeling... it should be taken as a learning opportunity for both. Not just nage.
I'm another flexible freak. I can and will take standard, by-the-book ukemi if I'm helping a beginner get an idea of how a technique works. However, if I'm working with someone more advanced, I just do what comes naturally. Before I'm warmed up joint locks are hard to get on me, and once I am thoroughly warm you might as well forget it.

I don't think very hard when I'm the uke. Unless I've decided to go for a reversal, I'm not actually looking for ways to screw up nage. I just go wherever he or she is sending me, but it's hard to respond if you literally cannot feel where they're going, and that's what happens if nage gets too tied up on a joint lock. It's not a question of allowing the force to transmit...you have to know it's there to allow the technique to happen. People (myself included) tend to develop a hang up with joint-locks and think that they're only about hurting your uke into submission. They aren't. The pain is more of a back-up plan than the entire technique. If you've got a freak on your hands, forget about causing pain and just go for their balance. It will work. I promise. If you take your uke's center, it doesn't matter if they're feeling the lock. Their balance is gone, and they're falling, and that's the whole point.

Last edited by RebeccaM : 05-17-2006 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 05-18-2006, 07:48 AM   #23
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
I"m another one. It is very difficult to sankyo me by trying to get into my wrist. Fortunately my sempai DO know how to get to my center through my shoulder, not my wrist.
I think this is a very good point. As others have said in this thread, take the center, don't just concentrate on the particular joint. In Sankyo for example, it is very important that while applying the technique that you lock his shoulder. This will take his center because he will be off-balance. The technique is much more painful when twisting the whole arm from the wrist.

Nathan Snow
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Old 05-22-2006, 10:45 AM   #24
jonreading
 
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Aikido is difficult to learn on a normal person, let alone on a circus freak! Seriously, tough joints (strong, flexible, whatever) pose a problem for learning aikido because often the technique is altered in order to successfully apply the control; since the conrtrol is not applied as kihon waza, that can confuse newer students or students looking to learn that particular technique. As a student, it is your responsibility to control when you use your "special" powers to resist joint locks: What is the skill set of your partner? It this training or demonstration? Why are you resisting? What are the eventual consequences of your resistance?

I had a strong judo student in class with me one day. My instructor was demonstrating kotegaishi and used this student for uke. The judo student was determined to prevent kotegaishi and was unable to react to the technique application, thus resulting in a broken wrist. Who's fault is this? Does it matter? Protect yourself and use good judgement, then let the technique unfold. If you do what you are supposed to do at the level of which you are supposed to work, then you have completed your obligations to your partner. You should not do anything more or anything less.

I always encourage students to be strong and resiliant in training, but on the heels of that encouragement come words of caution to avoid injury and focus on the interaction. I believe you simply were the victim of an embarrassing situation with a senior student. I hope you do not view this as anything mote that a singular bad experience - you have gotten lots of encouragement from some great posters.

Last edited by jonreading : 05-22-2006 at 10:45 AM. Reason: spellin"
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:28 AM   #25
Mark Freeman
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Re: If it doesn't work just do it harder?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote:
I had a strong judo student in class with me one day. My instructor was demonstrating kotegaishi and used this student for uke. The judo student was determined to prevent kotegaishi and was unable to react to the technique application, thus resulting in a broken wrist. Who's fault is this? Does it matter? Protect yourself and use good judgement, then let the technique unfold. If you do what you are supposed to do at the level of which you are supposed to work, then you have completed your obligations to your partner. You should not do anything more or anything less.
This seems to me like neither party was doing aikido but were engaged in 'something else'. The uke certainly wasn't studying the art of ukemi, and nage was using force, enough to break the uke's wrist, without the sensitivity to know when to stop.

I appreciate the 'martial' effectiveness of aikido, but there is no need to break joints in a demo to prove it.

Sad to read that

regards,

Mark

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