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Old 05-28-2006, 12:30 AM   #1
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Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of May 28, 2006:

Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Katatedori
  • Kosadori
  • Ryotedori
  • Morotedori
  • Shomenuchi
  • Yokomenuchi
  • Munetsuki
Here are the current results.
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Old 05-28-2006, 11:06 AM   #2
ruthmc
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Yokomenuchi - 'cos it's the most variable attack. Seems sometimes like everybody's been taught to do it in a different way..

Ruth
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Old 05-28-2006, 01:09 PM   #3
mriehle
 
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Thumbs down Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:
Seems sometimes like everybody's been taught to do it in a different way.
Seems that way 'cause they have, I think.

I've personally learned no less than three different variations and the teachers who taught them to me each opined strongly that their's was The One True Way of Yokomenuchi.

Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit. Okay, I'm exaggerating a lot. At least about "The One True Way" stuff.

Still, if I've learned three different variations, well, I probably represent a tiny, tiny microcosm. How many are there?

(Carl Sagan in the background intoning:
"There are billions and billions of yokomenuchi variations, each one unique and special.")

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Old 05-28-2006, 03:55 PM   #4
Tim Olds
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

In a Randori situation, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between a shomenuchi and a yokomenuchi... until it's ALMOST too late!
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Old 05-28-2006, 04:06 PM   #5
Lucy Smith
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Quote:
(Carl Sagan in the background intoning:
"There are billions and billions of yokomenuchi variations, each one unique and special.")
LOL.
Well I think it's positive to learn how to deal with different attacks, since the bad guy in the street is not going to perform a perfect yokomenuchi. It has never been a difficult technique for me. I would have voted Ushiro ryokata dori (both shoulders grab from the back), because that's definitely the most "difficult to handle" attack for me, since most of my training partners are shorter than me so it's hard for me to get out of the grab without messing up my hair. And if something drives me crazy is to mess up my hair. No, really, it does.
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Old 05-28-2006, 04:25 PM   #6
mriehle
 
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Quote:
Lucy Smith wrote:
Ushiro ryokata dori (both shoulders grab from the back
This lends credence to a theory I have on the subject:

The hardest one is the one we practice least. Which, in my case, happens to be yokomen uchi. Grab my shoulders - front or back - and I'll smile as I drop ya!

Yokomen uchi, OTOH, I have to think about. Thinking is bad when being attacked.

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Old 05-28-2006, 06:42 PM   #7
Suru
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

When my sensei would teach katate and kosa, he would occasionally instruct nage to gradually pull back as uke attacks, therefore beginning the technique with uke somewhat off his center. It was quite difficult for me as nage to decide just how quickly and just how much to pull back...too much or too quickly and a real attacker might change his mind on the attack. Not enough, and you don't get that extra advantage of taking a piece of his center. Therefore, when I first saw kosa and katate on the poll, I thought, "nope, those are the simplest ones." Then I remembered the subtlety involved in reacting to those attacks in a dynamic, non-static manner.

Drew
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Old 05-29-2006, 07:05 AM   #8
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

A shomenuchi attack got my vote, because I automatically flashbacked to getting hit the first time in a situation where I never saw the attack coming. A second time I got smacked with a shinai and never saw that coming either. Both times were good lessons. Someone can hit you with a shomenuchi even if they have their hands in their pockets to begin with.
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Old 05-29-2006, 07:31 AM   #9
Amir Krause
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Generally, it is not the attack rather some attackers, that can make my life difficult. We have a very gifted student in the dojo, in addition to his being Shodan in Korindo Aikido, he is also sandan in Karate, and when he attacks, he tracks so long as he can, which requires very exact timing or the punch will hit.

If one insists on attacks, I would go with kicks, and mostly, low short kicks to the knee. Some use these attacks as their main atemi in Randori and I find it very difficult to turn those attacks into a vulnerability. I find all kicks are harder to track to to insufficient practice (when I had the time, I practiced TKD in addition partially to get used to reading these attacks).

And if one must discuss hand techniques, I find the jab or front hand punch (the Japanese name just skipped my mind) as the most difficult. Again, the problem is mostly time and commitment, this attack would normally be set from short distance and without much commitment.

Amir
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Old 05-29-2006, 05:33 PM   #10
billybob
 
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Amir,

That sounds like really difficult randori training - people kicking low to the knee. Do they take time to plant themselves solidly before they kick? Maybe there is an indicator of their intension.

I voted Shomenuchi. Until I find soft springy power again in my body, I'll keep banging arms and getting hit on the head and shoulder.

dave
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Old 05-29-2006, 09:30 PM   #11
seank
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Kicks to the knee are very easy to counter if you have an effective hanmi (and not the type very typically seen demonstrated in Aikido); I've most often used nekoashi dachi (collectively called a "Cat stance").

This type of stance allows you to take kicks to the lower legs and still maintain your posture and stance. The only down side is it is very hard to move quickly forwards or backwards in this stance because the majority of your weight is on your rear leg.

On reading the kick though, you always have the option of driving your knee into uke's shins...

Quote:
Do they take time to plant themselves solidly before they kick?
For someone who is experienced, probably not; Hiza geri and Ashi Barai generally don't have much of a lead in. Knees are very prone to excessive lateral movement and don't take a lot to overextend, so the kick/sweep does not have to contain huge amounts of power.
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Old 05-30-2006, 05:48 AM   #12
Amir Krause
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

David
Quote:
That sounds like really difficult randori training - people kicking low to the knee.
The randori is normally done at low intensity, but everything is allowed provided both sides will e able to take it without injury. One may kick anyway he wishes if he can control the force of the kick and knows how to fall in the middle of the kick if a technique would be applied on him. Kicks are not frequent mostly due to the latter element (the fall is not nice). Some of people have found light low kicks are a wonderful atemi, they are right, since it is very difficult to feel it in time for a counter.


David

Quote:
Kicks to the knee are very easy to counter if you have an effective hanmi (and not the type very typically seen demonstrated in Aikido); I've most often used nekoashi dachi (collectively called a "Cat stance").

This type of stance allows you to take kicks to the lower legs and still maintain your posture and stance. The only down side is it is very hard to move quickly forwards or backwards in this stance because the majority of your weight is on your rear leg.
Getting into a stance where you can hardly move is not a good solution. Further, the situation I wrote about is one where I am attacking, the other uses a light low kick to the knee area as an atemi prior to applying his technique. I am moving, I am not in a fixed stance (thanks for the complements to the Aikido stance, at least in Korindo Aikido they are great for their purpose - free movement). The difficulty is to sense the low kick while advancing in order of countering it (move aside).

As I wrote, the main difficulty is not kicks, but rather an experienced high level attacker who can track you if you miss the exact timing. We have just acquired several more of these people, as another couple of YonDasha Karate students have joined us as "newbies".

Amir
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Old 05-30-2006, 12:52 PM   #13
billybob
 
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Amir,

You've probably already thought of this, but I'll suggest anyway:

Crowd the kickers. Move in against the planted foot and push
them over the outside heel. just a thought

dave
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Old 05-30-2006, 01:36 PM   #14
Lan Powers
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

The absolute worst attack for me is ....anything from mount Cervantes!
No, really, Mike has a great center, and will give a committed attack with honest intention.
The down side of this is he is strong, centered, bigger, and has a real penchant for catching me with ryo-katatori (two hand lapel) grabs and "planting his center.
Gotta move before he plants....I know this, but it is one of the most difficult things to do when Mike is comin'-on-down to latch on...
Really makes you get your timing better. (or look foolish, either one)
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 05-30-2006, 02:18 PM   #15
Don_Modesto
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

KATA DORI

So easy for UKE to take initiative and keep you off balance.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 05-30-2006, 06:11 PM   #16
MaryKaye
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

At local seminars we get a mix of people who attack shomenuchi with the rear hand/forward hand, ai hanmi/gyaku hanmi--you never know *what* your partner is going to do. I know that one should read the attack rather than try to predict it, but...I'm not there yet.

For some reason my dojo does not teach a good response to kata tori with the "wrong" hand, and when beginners do this to me I generally look very stupid. I'm sure there's a sankyo or nikyo there, but I can't find it on the fly yet.

I love ushiro attacks, any kind, especially from motion. Don't know why, as they ought to be particularly hard.

Mary Kaye
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:33 AM   #17
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Mary K,

next time you get grabbed wrong hand, close your eyes and see what happens!

(within reason)

dave
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Old 05-31-2006, 12:32 PM   #18
billybob
 
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Hi,

just realized i was offering advice unbidden..........oops.

dave
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Old 05-31-2006, 05:58 PM   #19
MaryKaye
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

No problem, all advice cheerfully considered (not necessarily taken).

I have only done extensive work blindfold once; it was trippy! I ended up with one partner holding my wrists from behind, and despite my fondness for ushiro I *could not* throw him. Nothing seemed to work. Finally in frustration I put my head down--and head-butted him in the stomach, because he was in front of me, not behind me at all.

Clearly lots of room to learn new stuff here!

Mary Kaye
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Old 05-31-2006, 06:09 PM   #20
chris w
 
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

what is kosadori?
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:37 AM   #21
grondahl
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

kosadori = ai hanmi katate dori.
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Old 06-01-2006, 03:15 AM   #22
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Kosa-dori is basically a cross hand grab, for example, uke uses his right hand to grab nage's right hand.
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:48 AM   #23
Hanna B
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Munetsuki = chudan tsuki?
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Old 06-01-2006, 06:33 AM   #24
Mark Uttech
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Munetsuki could well equal chudan tsuki as it covers the stomach and chest area.
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Old 06-01-2006, 10:13 AM   #25
jonreading
 
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Re: Poll: Which of the following attacks is the most difficult for you to handle during aikido training?

Yokomenuchi is often difficult to anticipate because of the plethora of striking angles and striking spots; it travels across two planes (horizontal and vertical), so it makes for complicated intercepting as well. I find many students spend time trying to "catch" the strike and they simply do not have the motor skills to do that against a good attack...
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