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Old 05-23-2006, 02:27 AM   #1
Takao Hattori
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Smile Do you practice TohoIai ?

TohoIai was created by Shoji Nishio Shihan for Aikidoka.
Have you practiced or seen TohoIai ?
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:08 AM   #2
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Hi !

Yes, I practice Aiki Toho Iai 3 times a week in the dojo and a Little by myself.
In Denmark the Nishio brand of Aikikai practice Aiki Toho Iai quite a lot -
mostly the higher grades.
It is possible to train with an Iaito from 3rd Kyu.
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:39 AM   #3
Takao Hattori
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Christian Boddum wrote:
Hi !

Yes, I practice Aiki Toho Iai 3 times a week in the dojo and a Little by myself.
In Denmark the Nishio brand of Aikikai practice Aiki Toho Iai quite a lot -
mostly the higher grades.
It is possible to train with an Iaito from 3rd Kyu.
Oh you practice TohoIai 3 times a week. It sounds good.
How do you think about TohoIai ? TohoIai is not for iai, is for Aikido.

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/
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Old 05-23-2006, 08:35 AM   #4
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Takao Hattori wrote:
Oh you practice TohoIai 3 times a week. It sounds good.
How do you think about TohoIai ? TohoIai is not for iai, is for Aikido.

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/
I'm not quite sure what you mean -

If I understand correctly ; Yes Toho iai is not iaido ,
it is Aikido in an iai form , Aikido as you would perform it with a sword.
There still are elements from classic sword wielding,
Nishio has said that the techniques derive from military techniques
so they have martial practicality,they are more than form.

The Kata's are not directly translations of Aikido techniques,
because you must target technique differently with a sword ,
than in empty handed technique, so there is much thought process involved.

Like there are differences in doing the same techniques in Ken-tai-Ken. In Ken-tai-Ken there are blocks and control points ,whereas
in Toho iai there are bigger continued cuts.
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Old 05-25-2006, 07:07 PM   #5
Takao Hattori
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Like there are differences in doing the same techniques in Ken-tai-Ken. In Ken-tai-Ken there are blocks and control points ,whereas
in Toho iai there are bigger continued cuts.[/quote]

I believe your understanding is correct.
When we practice Taijutsu,we also practice TohoIai,Ken tai Ken and Jo tai Ken which were taught by Nishio Shihan.

Then I think we can level up our Aikido-Taijutsu from TohoIai .
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/
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Old 05-26-2006, 05:38 AM   #6
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Yes absolutely !

But if you take Kata no. 5 - Gohonme Sayu giri - Shihonage gyakuhanmi ,
the first cut is quite high , some aim for the armpits ( Arisue Sensei cuts at stomach level )
in taijutsu shihonage is quite low , so this makes it necessary to analyze the techniques,
between Iai,ken and taijutsu and also with jo.
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Old 05-26-2006, 05:51 AM   #7
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Hello Hattori san - and hello Christian

I practice in the same dojo as Christian, but I have allso been doing seitei iaido under the Kendo renmei some years ago.

I believe there are two aspects of Aikitoho. One is its relation to Aikido in the form Nishio sensei taught it and the other is a basic understanding of the sword which - in many ways - can be understood as the basis of aikido.

I think Aikitoho is the essence of Nishios senseis understanding of aikido and of the way of the sword - but then again - so is his aikido... I believe one should practic toho with focus on the way the sword should be used AND on the footwork and posture of aikido at the same time. It is a brand new budo - not Aikido... not iaido... it is Aiki-toho and it contains many aspects of budo.

Most of all it is great fun

Sincerely

- JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:14 AM   #8
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

- It is a brand new budo - not Aikido... not iaido...
it is Aiki-toho and it contains many aspects of budo. -

Hmm.. interesting, so far I have been trying to understand Nishio Aikido from Aiki Toho iai,
but to see it as a separate Budo will take some adjustment - but then again, Change seems to be the standard in Nishio Aikido
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Old 05-26-2006, 09:10 AM   #9
JJF
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Hi Christian

If I remember right our old sensei Leo told me that In the beginning Nishio sensei told his students Aiki-toho was a style of iaido, but later he changed this and said it is a new budo. It is obiously closely integrated to the aikido of Nishio sensei, and I wouldn't think it to be of much value to practice one without the other. However I do believe it to be a separate budo - not a part of aikido practice the way ken-tai-ken and ken-tai-jo is. The mere fact that we have separete gradings in aiki-toho underlines this line of thought, wouldn't you say?

- JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 05-27-2006, 12:44 AM   #10
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Is aikitohoiai the same as what i've heard referred to as "aiki iai?"
I also thought this title was "tohoLai." thanks for clearing that up!

Definitely, lost in transliteration,
Jory

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Old 05-27-2006, 05:23 PM   #11
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

[quote= The mere fact that we have separate gradings in aiki-toho underlines this line of thought, wouldn't you say?

- JJ[/QUOTE]

I think I have viewed Aiki toho iai as a separate discipline ,not
a separate Budo.
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:02 PM   #12
Takao Hattori
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Hello Christian and Jorgen,
Sometimes we practice Tohoiai combining some waza.
For instance we start same as Sanpo-Giri,then Zengo-Giri.
This means Shomen-Uchi Shihonage. Have you tried combination ?
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Old 05-31-2006, 02:03 PM   #13
JohnSeavitt
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Say, can somebody enlighten me on the lineage of Toho-iai? It's my impression that it "has its roots"... in classical iai. Did Nishio-sensei have a particular koryu iai in his background when he developed his 15 waza?

John
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Old 05-31-2006, 05:43 PM   #14
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

If my memory serves, and it may very well not, Nishio Sensei was ranked in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. A closely related sister to the style I primarily practice Muso Shinden Ryu.

I have practiced the Toho-iai in a seminar with one of his top US students. From what I understand, the kata are directly connected to his Aikido Waza and how he thought through the technical aspects of his Aikido. IMO I didn't see any evidence there is any meaningful connection back to Iaido (traditional, koryu, classical - labels requiring long complex discussions).

So I would say my impression is that Toho-iai has no lineage in the traditional sense. Its lineage starts with Nishio Sensei. I think that should be enough for those that do it and love practicing in Nishio Sensei's style. He was a talented enough individual with deep experience in several martial arts.

The term "iai" is not a simple concept and its not an accurate description for what is going on and the goals really have little in common with Iaido. I glad he eventually decided to say it was not Iaido but I think he should have gone further and dropped "Iai" from the name altogether.

Iaido and Toho-Iai have as much in common as
Jodo and Aiki-Jo.

but since Jo is just the name of the stick, the label Aiki-Jo makes a lot more sense.

Toho-Iai is really just another form of Aiki-Ken.

Last edited by kironin : 05-31-2006 at 05:50 PM.

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Old 05-31-2006, 06:30 PM   #15
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Takao Hattori wrote:
Hello Christian and Jorgen,
Sometimes we practice Tohoiai combining some waza.
For instance we start same as Sanpo-Giri,then Zengo-Giri.
This means Shomen-Uchi Shihonage. Have you tried combination ?
?!? You mean kata no. 11 Sanpo-giri - (Sankyo)
and then kata no.4 Zengo - (Shihonage) No !

Today we did Sanpo-giri as toho ,
then ken-tai-Ken and then ken-tai-Jo.

Usually we move from Kata 1 and forward,
But sometimes (seldomly) backwards ,to break any habits.

We have 4-5 teachers of Aiki toho iai in our Dojo,
and they all have different angles and ways of teaching.
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Old 05-31-2006, 06:51 PM   #16
Takao Hattori
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Hello Christian,
I learned Iai from Nishio sensei until he died, first Omori- ryu and Keishicho- ryu.And I practiced Musoshinden- ryu and Araki-ryu also.
I saw some Araki-ryu technique in Nishio sensei.

Out of 15 waza in Toho-Iai, I teach what the waza means.
From the introduction of Sanpo-giri, you can learn how to control Shomen-uchi.

TohoIai is for Aikido.
http://www.aikidofederation.com/news012.htm
http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/Tohoiai.html
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:12 AM   #17
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

- From the introduction of Sanpo-giri, you can learn how to control Shomen-uchi. -

Hi Hattori !

Wouldn´t you say that you can learn to control shomenuchi from the introduction of :
Uke nagashi(2) , Tsuke kome (9) .Shiho giri (12) also ?

By the way , do you know what is happening in the beginning of Shihogiri , is uke moving away from the centerline or do you cut him in an angle ?
Arisue sensei showed me that in Ken-tai-Ken you control Ukes right arm - but this could be different in Aiki Toho ,as you cut rather deeply !

For how long have you been training the Sword ?
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Old 06-01-2006, 10:11 AM   #18
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
If my memory serves, and it may very well not, Nishio Sensei was ranked in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. A closely related sister to the style I primarily practice Muso Shinden Ryu.

I have practiced the Toho-iai in a seminar with one of his top US students. From what I understand, the kata are directly connected to his Aikido Waza and how he thought through the technical aspects of his Aikido. IMO I didn't see any evidence there is any meaningful connection back to Iaido (traditional, koryu, classical - labels requiring long complex discussions).

So I would say my impression is that Toho-iai has no lineage in the traditional sense. Its lineage starts with Nishio Sensei. I think that should be enough for those that do it and love practicing in Nishio Sensei's style. He was a talented enough individual with deep experience in several martial arts.

The term "iai" is not a simple concept and its not an accurate description for what is going on and the goals really have little in common with Iaido. I glad he eventually decided to say it was not Iaido but I think he should have gone further and dropped "Iai" from the name altogether.

Iaido and Toho-Iai have as much in common as
Jodo and Aiki-Jo.

but since Jo is just the name of the stick, the label Aiki-Jo makes a lot more sense.

Toho-Iai is really just another form of Aiki-Ken.

Thanks Craig, I have been reading this thread with some interest. Your comments were helpful to me.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 06-01-2006, 10:17 AM   #19
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

I picked up a book on Aikido Toho Iai but haven't had a chance to sit down and read it.

I found that using the bokken really improved my basic stance and keeping myself centered. And hey it's fun (unless your my wifes furniture I'm always wacking by accident. )
I'm really interested in taking up and trying Aikido Toho Iai however I have two questions for those of you who are in the know about it.

1). For about 6 months I will probably have to practice this (and aikido) on my own. Can Akido Toho Iai be practiced on your own?

2). I'm an orange belt, will this stuff be over my head? Should I wait until higher levels?

Thanks all

Grant
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Old 06-01-2006, 10:35 AM   #20
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:

1). For about 6 months I will probably have to practice this (and aikido) on my own. Can Aikido Toho Iai be practiced on your own?

2). I'm an orange belt, will this stuff be over my head? Should I wait until higher levels?

Thanks all

Grant
First off ; You shouldn't get your answers here ,ask your sensei !

Is Aiki Toho taught in your Dojo ?

If not then you really can't learn it , you will need qualified instruction !

I have seen a case of a person training on his own ,
not recommended !
Unless you are surrounded by mirrors , you can't see your own mistakes.

This is my view - Maybe Hattoro has better answers -

he is much more the authority here !!
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:46 AM   #21
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Christian Boddum wrote:

- Maybe Hattoro has better answers -
Oops !

Hattori , not Hattoro - gomen nasai Hattori-san !
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:02 PM   #22
Takao Hattori
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Wouldn´t you say that you can learn to control shomenuchi from the introduction of :
Uke nagashi(2) , Tsuke kome (9) .Shiho giri (12) also ?
--I recommend Sanpo-giri intoduction to control Shomen-uchi.

By the way , do you know what is happening in the beginning of Shihogiri , is uke moving away from the centerline or do you cut him in an angle ?
-- Sorry I cannot understand.

Arisue sensei showed me that in Ken-tai-Ken you control Ukes right arm - but this could be different in Aiki Toho ,as you cut rather deeply !
--TohoIai and Ken tai Ken is not always same.

For how long have you been training the Sword ?[/quote]
-- Longer than 25 years. Not only Nishio sensei but also I practiced Iai-Musoshinden ryu and Araki ryu at the dojo where Nishio sensei practiced Iai. In addition Toyama ryu to realize real cutting.
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:16 PM   #23
Takao Hattori
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Hi
1). For about 6 months I will probably have to practice this (and aikido) on my own. Can Akido Toho Iai be practiced on your own?

2). I'm an orange belt, will this stuff be over my head? Should I wait until higher levels?
-Answer
In my dojo anyone practice Tohoiai.Even one month.
I use Tohoiai to teach and learn Aikido. I can see essence in Tohoiai.
When we enjoy Aikido,often use Jo and bokken to understand Waza.

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/

Thanks all
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:59 PM   #24
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Takao Hattori wrote:
By the way , do you know what is happening in the beginning of Shihogiri , is uke moving away from the centerline or do you cut him in an angle ?
-- Sorry I cannot understand.

.
What kind of attack are you recieving in Shiho-giri ?
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Old 06-01-2006, 06:44 PM   #25
Takao Hattori
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Re: Do you practice TohoIai ?

Quote:
Christian Boddum wrote:
What kind of attack are you recieving in Shiho-giri ?
Hi Christian
He does Shomenuchi. I cut him from angle position.

By the way have you cut something by real sword ?

I saw some Iai kodansha could not cut Makiwara correctly.
Do you cut or hit in Toho Iai ?

http://www.geocities.jp/yokosuka111/
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