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Old 07-26-2001, 04:53 AM   #1
Markus
 
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Question in search of certain kanji ...

Hi Folks,

Our dojo has a compilation of commonly used Japanese terms explained in our language, as most dojo have, I assume. I now just got the idea to add the according kanji to the terms. While I have good sources for most of them, I still have a problem with this one:

kakari geiko

I know the kanji for keiko/geiko, but can not find kakari. As an explanation, we have ju no geiko (soft training form) and kakari geiko (harder/more dynamic/something like that training form). I do not know where we got that term from nor where to look for it.

Anybody got any ideas?

TIA
Markus
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Old 07-26-2001, 08:28 AM   #2
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Here's a .gif image of the characters for "kakari geiko." Hope it helps!

-- Jun
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Old 07-26-2001, 08:47 AM   #3
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Smile Thanks, Jun :o)

You're great ... it helped. What I do not understand at all yet is the meaning of kakari in this context. From my kanji dictionary it is something between multiply and taxes ... I can make a (little) sense of it, but if you could spare the time for a little explanation, I'd appreciate.

Thank you
Markus

PS: If you could also help out with other readings for the kanji for shikko so I could convince my IME to display them ... (?)
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Old 07-28-2001, 03:59 AM   #4
Peter Goldsbury
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Markus,

I typed kakari-geiko into my computer and got no response. Inputting separately yielded the characters that Jun gave you. On Page 677 and 678 of Masuda's Japanese-English Dictioary, there are 18 meanings given for kakaru. No 12 gives the same meaning as 攻撃 こうげき kougeki 'to attack' (the radical is No 66 and the first character is No. 2331 in Nelson's dictionary); 'to fall on the enemy'; 'to assail a person'. This would be something like how the students try to practice kakari-geiko in my university dojo.

Shikko is 膝行. The first character is 膝 ひざ hiza, meaning 'knee' and the second 行 (yuku) means to go or move.

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Peter Goldsbury

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Old 07-28-2001, 04:45 AM   #5
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Peter,

Thank you very much for your explanations, they made things a little clearer to me. I'd like to add that I also really appreciate to have you on this board, too. I usually enjoy reading your posts on the Aikido Journal BBS - and most times learn a lot from them.

I tryed with hiza yuku and the IME brought the kanji I wanted: 膝行 (hope this is readable, I can not see your kanji, allthough I normally can view Japanese web pages and your kanji on aikidojournal.com).

I hope I won't seem impertinent to ask another question: I found two different kanji writings for sabaki: 裁く and 捌く (the first one being radical 24, Nelson 788, the second one not being in my dictionary, which is a beginner's one with only about 2000 kanji). From what I have found, the first, , means something like to taylor or to judge, the second, , something like to sell or to cure. Again, I can not understand a) why there are two kanji and b) how this actually relates to what aikido people know as sabaki. I can make sense of it, as my teacher judging my sabaki will taylor myself to some more adequate execution, what might be some cure for me that I have to pay with more sweat (i.e. the sale) - but from my previous expeditions into the deeper meanings of Japanese terminology I seem to remember there usually is a somewhat more 'real' approach ... :-)

Thanks again
Markus
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Old 07-28-2001, 08:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Markus
From what I have found, the first, , means something like to taylor or to judge, the second, , something like to sell or to cure.

The correct character for sabaki, according at least to the current Doshu's "Kihan Aikido", is the second character for "sabaku".
Quote:
Again, I can not understand a) why there are two kanji

Same kind of thing in English with homonyms. They may sound the same, but they're written differently and mean different things.
Quote:
and b) how this actually relates to what aikido people know as sabaki.

Since you're using Nelson's dictionary, I'll point you to the third meaning of 1912 which says, "handle, manipulate." "The way one handles one's body" sounds OK to my own ears, at least.

By the way, although I didn't have tai sabaki listed, I did have shikkou and other characters in the "Kanji" files in the language section of this site...

-- Jun

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Old 07-28-2001, 09:10 AM   #7
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Marcus,

I cuould read all the kanji you posted in your last message. But I think you can no longer resd my kanji on the AJ board or E-budo. As for taisabaki, I suggest you talk to Peter Megann of the British Aikido Federation (you csn find his e-mail address on the IAF web site). I write articles for their newsletter and I am pretty sure that the taisabaki kanji was disciussed.

The kanji for sabaki in Doshu's latest book is 捌き. This is the character you could not find. It is radical 64 and in the revised Nelson dictionary is No.2162. It means to 'dispose of' or 'manipulate'. Of course, there are other meanings, but with the character 'tai' (body), the meaning is pretty clear.

The other kanji is under Radical 145 amd is No. 5454 in the revised Nelson dictionary. It has a completely different meaning, which is to cut, or make a judgement. There is no sense of movement.

Finally, I strongly suggest that you use two dictionaries: the revised Nelson, not the old version, and Spahn and Hadamitzky's "Kanji Dictionary". This is an excellent dictionary and the main virtue is that, unlike Nelson, you can look up a word under any of the characters appearing in the word.

I urge you to buy it, despite the price, and I think there was an earlier German version, which also might still be available.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

Since posting this message, Jun has also posted a reply, but I think he is using the old Nelson dictionary.

Don't you guys have the new Nelson and Spahn and Hadamitzky's Kanji Dictionary?


Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 07-28-2001 at 09:21 AM.

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Old 07-28-2001, 12:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
Since posting this message, Jun has also posted a reply, but I think he is using the old Nelson dictionary.

Don't you guys have the new Nelson and Spahn and Hadamitzky's Kanji Dictionary?
Yup -- I'm using the second revised edition of Nelson's dictionary rather than the new one. I haven't really used it all that often since my previous life as a computational linguist so it really hasn't given me too much incentive to purchase the new edition.

I'll take a look at Spahn and Hadamitzky's dictionary, though, when I get the chance. Thanks for the pointer.

And, to clarify my previous post, your reference to the new edition's kanji #2162 is the same as the old edition's #1912. I'll attach an image of the character out of Moriteru Ueshiba sensei's book below...

-- Jun
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Old 07-28-2001, 05:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
Same kind of thing in English with homonyms. They may sound the same, but they're written differently and mean different things.
I was not wondering there are two kanji for the same sound, but two kanji for the same term. The source where I found them is http://www.ufa-aikido.de/ufa/woerter/s.html, there, a book by Hiroshi Higuchi is mentioned as source.

Quote:
Since you're using Nelson's dictionary,
I'm not. Mine is by Hadamitzky, but I thought the Nelson numbers were some kind of a standard to refer to kanji.

Quote:
By the way, although I didn't have tai sabaki listed, I did have shikkou and other characters in the "Kanji" files in the language section of this site...
I know those pages and regard them as a valuable source (allthough I do not think that katate tori is a rank ;-) ). My Problem with Shikko was not that I did not know the kanji, but that I did not know how to convince my IME to display them (entering "shikko" or variations did not result with the desired kanji, Peter's hint to use "hiza yuku" made it). Using the IME allows me to use vector fonts, which look better when printed.

Thanks
Markus
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Old 07-28-2001, 06:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
Finally, I strongly suggest that you use two dictionaries: the revised Nelson, not the old version, and Spahn and Hadamitzky's "Kanji Dictionary". This is an excellent dictionary and the main virtue is that, unlike Nelson, you can look up a word under any of the characters appearing in the word.

I urge you to buy it, despite the price, and I think there was an earlier German version, which also might still be available.
Thank you very much for this pointer (and the one to Peter Megann). The dictionary I own is by Hadamitzky, but it is an introductionary one. (Nelson numbers are stated as a reference. ) I like this one, as it also provides writing guidelines (eg which strokes first and in what direction), but added the one you mentioned to my wishlist. .

Thanks
Markus
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Old 07-28-2001, 08:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Markus


Thank you very much for this pointer (and the one to Peter Megann). The dictionary I own is by Hadamitzky, but it is an introductionary one. (Nelson numbers are stated as a reference. ) I like this one, as it also provides writing guidelines (eg which strokes first and in what direction), but added the one you mentioned to my wishlist. .

Thanks
Markus
Markus,

There are several publications by Spahn & Hadamitzky and I list them here so that you are aware of what I am using.

1. The Kanji Dictionary, with yellow dust jacket in a slip case 1,750 pages. This is the one to use to find compounds and the beauty is that you can find the word via any of the compounds. However, there are some gaps.
2. A early paperback version of this, now superseded.
3. The Learner's Kanji Dictionary. Hard covers with 907 pages. I really wonder why they wrote this dictionary. It is not big enough to use as a dictionary and its sole value is that the strokes are numbered. However, you can learn this fairly quickly once you have mastered the principles. When I look at a character, I know immediately how to write it. I do not want to appear arrogant, but learning the 214 radicals and the stroke order of a character is so important. For me, when I learned the number of stroke, I also learned the correct way to write the character. Is this not normal? Jun?
4. Kanji & Kana. A black paperback with stroke counts for all the joyo-kanji. The revised paperback edition is much better than the hardback original.
5. A Guide to Writing Kanji & Kana. This is a workbook in two volumes for No.4.

All these books are published by Charles Tuttle, who is also the publisherof the New Nelson. Harcovers blue dustjacket. This has a new index called the Universal Radical Index, and you can look up a character from any of the radicals. There are some gaps even with this dictionary, which is why I use both.

You asked why there were two characters for the same word. Actually, this is not uncommon and I can think of several cases where there are two or three characters for a word, all having a cognate meaning. Think of the word 'wakaru' (understand), for example.

Finally, Jun, which Japanese dictionary do you use? I use the Kojien (Iwanami Shoten) and Sanseido's Daijirin. The above Japanese-English dictionaries are usually insufficient.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

The New Nelson

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 07-28-2001 at 08:54 PM.

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Old 07-28-2001, 09:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
Finally, Jun, which Japanese dictionary do you use? I use the Kojien (Iwanami Shoten) and Sanseido's Daijirin. The above Japanese-English dictionaries are usually insufficient.
Frankly, I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I don't have any Japanese-English dictionaries (outside of the (old) Nelson's character dictionary). I have a few Japanase-Japanese dictionaries that I've either just picked up without much thought or bought at a secondhand store -- nothing special, really...

However, I'll certainly take a look at the ones you mentioned if/when I need one! I'll probably be stopping by a Kinokuniya or somesuch place when I'm in Japan in a few weeks; I may use that opportunity to pick one up...

-- Jun

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