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Old 05-21-2006, 11:13 PM   #1
Jory Boling
 
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Frequency of Randori

I've been training in Japan, since January, and have only seen randori for a few seconds during an exhibition. I asked a fellow gaijin who's been here 4 years and he didn't even know what "randori" was. He then thought, that yeah maybe he's seen it, once.

I asked one of my sensei (in broken Japanese) and he said that you'll see it during gasshuku, sometimes.

My old dojomates in the USA are frequently doing randori or doing randori skill building exercises.

So I have a couple of questions:

1.How often do you do/see randori at your dojo?
2. Does the training involve everyone or just higher ranking individuals?

It might just be my particular family of dojos.
Thanks,
Jory

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Old 05-22-2006, 01:40 AM   #2
Amir Krause
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Re: Frequency of Randori

We have Randori of some sort in almost every practice.

It can be a simple two partners en-Randori, each attacking, and evading and performing technique as he wises, a semi-Randori, where one party attacks (empty handed or armed) and the other evades and performs techniques (or just evasion, we sometimes practice this way to reduce the tendency of some to stick the techniques in their heads). Sometimes we limit the randori to grabbing techniques ( most times all attacks are allowed), with grabbing attacks, Tori may be asked to close his eyes (increases sensitivity). Sometimes (I think it comes down to about once a month or two) we also practice Ran-sen, multiple attackers against one.

Most of these practices are open to all except beginners in their very first month or so (until they can fall and roll safely). the intensity of attacks and nature of randori are of course adjusted for the less experienced student. For example, counter would be rarely performed against a beginner student, while between advanced students, any opening is considered an invitation.


One should take into consideration Korindo Aikido holds Randori as one of the pillars of training. This is a principle of the system, just like practicing Tai-Sabaki or Kata (technique practice). For this reason, Randori is not limited to empty hand, and we practice Randori with weapons as well (Jo, Bokken, Kodachi, Tanto, Rokshaku etc.)

Amir
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Old 05-22-2006, 02:16 AM   #3
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Randori makes up between 30 to 120 minutes of our two hour session. Randori for me is the way to take a rigid kata system and make it my own by trying what works for me.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-22-2006, 05:39 AM   #4
villrg0a
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

In Saudi Arabia, we have classes 3X per week at an average of 2 hours per class. We have jiyu waza (sort of like randori), and is done by everyone.
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Old 05-22-2006, 10:09 AM   #5
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
1.How often do you do/see randori at your dojo?
We did it a few times a month in the winter. I think everyone's a bit too exhausted at the end of practice in the summer. Actually, just last week we did jiyu-waza with our partners to end class.

Quote:
2. Does the training involve everyone or just higher ranking individuals?
Everyone.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 05-25-2006, 04:59 AM   #6
Karen Wolek
Dojo: Kingston Aikido
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
1.How often do you do/see randori at your dojo?
2. Does the training involve everyone or just higher ranking individuals?
1. I do randori/freestyle for at least an hour every week...our advanced class is pretty much all freestyle. Sensei also has us do some sort of jiyuwaza at least a couple times a week during the regular classes.

2. During advanced class, it is 2nd kyu and up...but during the regular classes, it's everyone, from newbie to yudansha.

I'm really, really glad too! Watching dan tests you can really notice who has had a lot of exposure to freestyle and who has not.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
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Old 05-25-2006, 07:13 AM   #7
happysod
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Re: Frequency of Randori

1. Randori: some form of freestyle every class, varies from 15 mins - 1 hour depending on the class
2. Participants: everyone who can't run away or claim illness quick enough
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Old 05-25-2006, 08:15 AM   #8
Tim Heckman
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Re: Frequency of Randori

It's an interesting question. We're a young dojo-- our senior student just received his shodan a few months ago-- and have a small (15' x 30') space.

We do it several times a month, for a few minutes, at the end of our non-beginners class. Jiyu waza enters our testing at third kyu, and randori at first kyu. With more space, and more senior students, we would probably do it more often. It's a little cramped for four person randori.

"Shut up and train."-- Fumio Toyoda
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Old 05-25-2006, 09:44 AM   #9
DaveS
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
1.How often do you do/see randori at your dojo?
2. Does the training involve everyone or just higher ranking individuals?
1. We're shodothugs, so it's a slighty different definition of randori, but we dedicate every other class to some sort of randori practice - the other is kata, basics, and technical stuff. Randori practice covers everything from striking and avoidance practice or practicing preset combinations in a tanto randori like situation through kakari geiko and varying levels of resistance in hikitate geiko to (occasionally) full shiai randori 'matches.' We tried toshu randori the other day, too, which was interesting.
2. Everyone. On the principle that even if you know nothing but shomen ate, you can practice doing shomen ate...
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Old 05-25-2006, 01:10 PM   #10
Karen Wolek
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
David Sim wrote:
On the principle that even if you know nothing but shomen ate, you can practice doing shomen ate...
Funny you mention that. Yesterday, another 2nd kyu and I were watching Sensei demo the next technique, which was a shomen ate one from katatetori. The other guy said, "Why don't I ever think of that (in freestyle)? It's so simple...and effective!"

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
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Old 05-25-2006, 04:11 PM   #11
billybob
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

We do randori quite frequently. I think we have been strongly influenced by Sensei George Ledyard's seminars - we realized our randori 'weren't so good'.

Perhaps, Jory, you see less randori because the Japanese feel that mastering the basics is so very critical. They're right, but I like randori, even though I get hit more.

dave
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Old 05-26-2006, 02:06 AM   #12
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Perhaps, Jory, you see less randori because the Japanese feel that mastering the basics is so very critical.

dave
And it might just be my organization. For all I know, they do randori every day at Aikikai Hombu. I was happy to see one of the sensei do it at a demonstration, so I know somebody is doing it, somewhere, sometimes.

So far, thanks to all who've taken the time to answer my little poll.

Jory
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Old 05-26-2006, 10:30 AM   #13
DaveS
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Karen Wolek wrote:
Funny you mention that. Yesterday, another 2nd kyu and I were watching Sensei demo the next technique, which was a shomen ate one from katatetori. The other guy said, "Why don't I ever think of that (in freestyle)? It's so simple...and effective!"
Lamp them in the jaw. Never fails.

I sometimes get frustrated in randori because I don't know enough techniques (I'm a comparative beginner) and the techniques I know don't work. I have to keep reminding myself of the obvious answer - use the techniques I know, and see how I can make them work.
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Old 05-26-2006, 02:03 PM   #14
billybob
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
how I can make them work
David Sim

Take the techniques you know and find the softest, shortest way to do them and they will work in randori.

Our local Shihan says use 'openings' to techniques. I think he means take balance quickly and efficiently and move!

I find that if I can see most or all of the attackers I'm ok. If I can't I'm probably gonna be bruised after class.

dave
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Old 05-30-2006, 11:14 PM   #15
RossT
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Of the classes that I attend, Randoori is always practised during one session per week (thurs) for about 15 mis, and is currently being included in all of the morning classes as well. I've noticed that during the morning class our sensei rotates the theme of the teaching every two weeks or so, whilst generally practising a similar range of attacks and techniques. Right now this includes sword work and Randoori. In both instances, everyone takes part. When this current cycle finishes i don't know when we will next practice Randoori during this class, as I've only been here for six months.
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Old 05-30-2006, 11:32 PM   #16
xuzen
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Karen Wolek wrote:
Funny you mention that. Yesterday, another 2nd kyu and I were watching Sensei demo the next technique, which was a shomen ate one from katatetori. The other guy said, "Why don't I ever think of that (in freestyle)? It's so simple...and effective!"
Ah, SHOMEN-ATE (TM)... the solution to 90% of aikido problems. I like it too... definitely high up in my tokui-waza (Most Favoured Techniques).

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-19-2006, 08:21 PM   #17
Hardware
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

I've found Japanese and westerners train and learn differently. The Japanese will do a simple task tens of thousands of times to learn it. Us westerners don't have the patience to do that.

Randori or Jiyu waza steps outside the rigid practice preferred by many Japanese. I've been invited (as a kyu grade) to attend black belt seminars run by our Shihan and for an hour and a half, we did shomen uchi ikkyo.

I value Randori and Jiyu-waza and have gently influenced my sensei in using it more in our regular practice. It intimidates many people but you hear much more laughter and interaction during. I've also used it much more frequently in the kids' class and they seem to enjoy it more as well.
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Old 06-21-2006, 05:58 AM   #18
stelios
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Re: Frequency of Randori

We never do randori-waza in our dojo as my teacher learned from his teacher etc that it is not necessary for qyu students. On insisting when he will be willing to teach randori to us he calmly replied "when there will be uke", probably meaning that emphasis should be given in everyday practise of the techniques and not in the spectacular orchestrated parastasis of randori. On the antipode of the above, we practide one tori (nage) in the centrte and attack of all the other students at a time each.
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:56 AM   #19
xuzen
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Stelios Papados wrote:
We never do randori-waza in our dojo as my teacher learned from his teacher etc that it is not necessary for qyu students. On insisting when he will be willing to teach randori to us he calmly replied "when there will be uke", probably meaning that emphasis should be given in everyday practise of the techniques and not in the spectacular orchestrated parastasis of randori. On the antipode of the above, we practide one tori (nage) in the centrte and attack of all the other students at a time each.
Hail Stelios,

Translation of RAN-DORI is Chaotic technique. By its nature, it is not suppose to be orchestrated,; whether it shall be spectacular or not, it not important. The outcome should be mutual benefit, mutual welfare for the participants.

I think the correct term where one student in centre (tori) against multiple uke is called JIYU-WAZA meaning Free Technique. Whether it is spectacular or not, is not important, the outcome is a good DOJO BRAWL (TM).

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:20 AM   #20
stelios
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Re: Frequency of Randori

I agree Xu and thanks for the observation. I have found the practise of tori in the middle and multiple uke taking turns on him/her very enlightening in the sense that it is a great potentiality of one to get down to practise what is learned (or not) and to enlist the mistakes made after each attack and technique.
The varaitions in each attack (different uke-different approach to an attack) may well reflect the ability one has to deal with minor variations in the onstart of a technique. Through the mistakes, sometimes great sometimes less observed, I personally get to learn my own mistakes and try to correct them. And yes, it varies a bit from everyday practise in the sense that there is attack upon attack upon attack from different uke all the time. One may well learn a great deal out of such experiences! I wish it all comes to mind this Sunday when our kyu exams are set for!
Cheers from Greece!
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:52 AM   #21
DmG
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Stelios Papados wrote:
We never do randori-waza in our dojo as my teacher learned from his teacher etc that it is not necessary for qyu students. On insisting when he will be willing to teach randori to us he calmly replied "when there will be uke", probably meaning that emphasis should be given in everyday practise of the techniques and not in the spectacular orchestrated parastasis of randori.
Interesting. Wonder where one got the idea that randori is orchestrated? I've never had an orchestrated randori....although I'm sure that would be nice.

Randori, I find, is different than the jiyuwaza, in that the timing and direction can be different than expected. You learn to 'strategize' quickly based on the various ukes timing and position (as opposed to having them lined up and attacking one at a time).

Both practices I find very beneficial....and since in our federation, you have to start randori and 2nd kyu, and need to do a 4 person randori for shodan....we practice at a kyu level (otherwise, it is a surprise on your test!)
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:40 PM   #22
samurai_kenshin
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
I've been training in Japan, since January, and have only seen randori for a few seconds during an exhibition. I asked a fellow gaijin who's been here 4 years and he didn't even know what "randori" was. He then thought, that yeah maybe he's seen it, once.

I asked one of my sensei (in broken Japanese) and he said that you'll see it during gasshuku, sometimes.

My old dojomates in the USA are frequently doing randori or doing randori skill building exercises.

So I have a couple of questions:

1.How often do you do/see randori at your dojo?
2. Does the training involve everyone or just higher ranking individuals?

It might just be my particular family of dojos.
Thanks,
Jory
End of each class, my friend. On mondays there are two classes. I get 5 ukes at the kids classes!!!

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
-Barry LePatner
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:45 AM   #23
AikiD
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Re: Frequency of Randori

We do Randori twice a week, mixed with all grades taking part, even with a 7th dan as uke!
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Old 06-24-2006, 09:46 AM   #24
shadowedge
 
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Re: Frequency of Randori

I moved a lot in the last 4 years, so I had to train in different dojos for location reasons...

I noticed that the actual chaotic RAN-DORI was done usually during either demos, promotions, or whenever sensei felt like testing us.

but we participate in JIYU-WAZA in almost alll sessions, usually near the end...

its always the funnest part of the session....
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:27 AM   #25
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Frequency of Randori

I hardly ever seen randori at my dojo because my old sensei had a preconcieved notion that it was only for blackbelts, yudansha. This is simply not the case. There are creative ways to introduce randori safely at lower skill levels so there is ample time to master it. Sarting to cover it at 1st kyu is ridiculous.
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