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Old 05-12-2006, 05:30 AM   #1
Amanda
Dojo: Exeter Ki Aikido
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First in Japanese

I thought that ik was Japanese for first as in ikkyo, however a first dan is a shodan rather than an ikdan (which I admit would be hard to pronounce) can anybody explain this?
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Old 05-12-2006, 06:33 AM   #2
Steve Mullen
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Re: First in Japanese

As i understand it, ik (or ichi) is japanese for one, not first.

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Old 05-12-2006, 06:54 AM   #3
kokyu
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Re: First in Japanese

One is ichi [いち] or 一 as written in Kanji. Kyo means teach and when you put the two together, there is a change in pronunciation, so instead of saying ichikyo, it becomes ikkyo, where the double kk represents a slight pause.

Shodan (as others have explained) actually means the beginning step. It signifies that you have taken the beginning step in becoming a serious student of Aikido. So, we don't say ichidan.

However, we do use nidan and sandan to say 2nd dan and 3rd dan. Interestingly, the 'ni' and 'san' are written differently from the normal characters for 2 and 3. Ni is usually written as 2 horizontal strokes [二] and san is written as 3 horizontal strokes [三]. Because it's just too easy to add another stroke to make '2' become '3', many dojos write them differently on the certificate, using more complex characters or daiji.

Thus, '2' becomes 弐 and not 二 and '3' becomes 参 and not 三.

Last edited by kokyu : 05-12-2006 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 05-12-2006, 07:48 AM   #4
Steve Mullen
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Re: First in Japanese

See, much better than i put it

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Old 05-12-2006, 07:48 AM   #5
Amanda
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Re: First in Japanese

Many thanks guys.
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:35 AM   #6
Qatana
 
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Re: First in Japanese

So 'four' is 'shi' but a fourth kyu or dan is "yon".
How come?

Q
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:40 AM   #7
akiy
 
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
So 'four' is 'shi' but a fourth kyu or dan is "yon".
How come?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7826

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Old 05-12-2006, 11:51 AM   #8
kokyu
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
So 'four' is 'shi' but a fourth kyu or dan is "yon".
How come?
As mentioned in the related thread, 'shi' is a homonym for death. So, shi kyu or shi dan, would mean death level or death step - not very auspicious...
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Old 05-12-2006, 12:00 PM   #9
Qatana
 
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Re: First in Japanese

Wow, that's Perfect for my Dead Samurai character! Thanks!!

Q
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Old 06-01-2006, 10:43 AM   #10
odudog
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Re: First in Japanese

4 can be pronounced as shi or yon. However, you only use the shi pronounciation when you are counting. It flows better that way {ichi, ni, san , shi, go, roku, shici, et...}

On the same note, 7 can be prounounced as shichi or nana and you use shichi when counting as well for the same reason as above.
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Old 06-01-2006, 12:13 PM   #11
David Orange
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
One is ichi [いち] or 一 as written in Kanji. Kyo means teach and when you put the two together, there is a change in pronunciation, so instead of saying ichikyo, it becomes ikkyo, where the double kk represents a slight pause.
Well, you're right. I never knew that was the meaning of ikkyo. In daito ryu, I believe, or possibly early aikido, the technique was called "ikkajo", followed by "nikkajo," etc. And the "kajo" meant "to catch," as I understood it. So the techniques were called "First catch," "Second catch," and so on. But you are right. Ikkyo means "first teaching," nikkyo is "second teaching," etc.

In the system I learned, we didn't use any of those names. Mochizuki sensei used jujutsu nomenclature for everything. In his teaching, "ikkyo" is "robuse". Nikkyo is "hiji kudake," sankyo is "kote kudake" and yonkyo is either "yuki chigai" or "kote mawashi". Thanks for pointing that out.

Best wishes.

David
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Old 06-01-2006, 12:44 PM   #12
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, you're right. I never knew that was the meaning of ikkyo. In daito ryu, I believe, or possibly early aikido, the technique was called "ikkajo", followed by "nikkajo," etc. And the "kajo" meant "to catch," as I understood it. So the techniques were called "First catch," "Second catch," and so on. But you are right. Ikkyo means "first teaching," nikkyo is "second teaching," etc.
"Kajo" doesn't mean catch. The "jo(u)" is 条. It refers to "articles" or "sections" of something written, in this case, most likely, the original Daito-ryu densho. The "ka" ヵ or ヶ in this case is a counter: cf ikkagetsu (one month), nikagetu (two months), ikkasho (one place), nikasho (two places). In Daito-ryu, ikkajou, nikajou, sankajou, etc. are/were collections of techniques that made up the Hiden Mokuroku. When Ueshiba pared down the Daito-ryu techniques for his own art, he gave the names to the techniques now known in Yoshinkan as ikkajou, etc. I imagine they became ikkyou, nikyou, etc. since they had lost their connection to any kind of densho.

However, in some aikido books, it is not uncommon to see both ikkajo and ikkyo translated as "first control". It's not an accurate translation at all, but it is expedient, which is probably more important in those cases.

Josh Reyer

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Old 06-01-2006, 05:01 PM   #13
David Orange
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
"Kajo" doesn't mean catch. The "jo(u)" is 条. It refers to "articles" or "sections" of something written, in this case, most likely, the original Daito-ryu densho.
Well that makes a lot of sense. Another case of believing something because it's written down somewhere. ikka, nikka, with jou appended is clear.

I once read an article in which some guy said that shodan and nidan mean "first man" and "second man" because somewhere he had read that "dan" means "man." So he assumed....

It's just ridiculous to speculate about these terms without seeing the kanji and either recognizing it or looking it up in a dictionary.

Thanks for that info.

David
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Old 06-06-2006, 01:15 PM   #14
aikidoc
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Re: First in Japanese

Ok. Interesting stuff since I have been looking at the kanji for a nafudekake. I did notice the kanji for ikkyo on up is the same as the numbers for the kyu ranks. However, for shodan through sandan the kanji is different, yet from yondan up we are back to the kanji for the numbers. Does anyone know why there is a difference and then it switches?
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Old 06-06-2006, 05:04 PM   #15
David Orange
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
for shodan through sandan the kanji is different, yet from yondan up we are back to the kanji for the numbers. Does anyone know why there is a difference and then it switches?
John, I think someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the simple writing of "ichi" and "ni" with a simple horizontal line (or two or three) leaves open the possibility of falsifying a rank certificate by adding lines. In other words, you get a shodan with a single line for "sho" and you could just make yourself sandan by adding two little lines above it.

They use different characters for 1-3 in that case and for some legal types of documents.

If I understand your question.

Best wishes.

David

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Old 06-07-2006, 04:45 PM   #16
aikispike
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, you're right. I never knew that was the meaning of ikkyo. In daito ryu, I believe, or possibly early aikido, the technique was called "ikkajo", followed by "nikkajo," etc. And

David
In yoshinkan aikido we use kajo... as in ikkajo, nikajo.


spike

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Old 06-09-2006, 09:43 PM   #17
kokyu
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
I did notice the kanji for ikkyo on up is the same as the numbers for the kyu ranks.
In some places, the kanji from sankyu to ikkyu uses daiji as well. Have a look at the grading requirements at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo.
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:03 AM   #18
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Re: First in Japanese

I think the concept of "first" in japanese (as in, the first step for baking a cake) is "Mazu" if my highschool japanese is holding out. Anyone out there to back me up?

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Old 06-14-2006, 10:10 AM   #19
kokyu
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Re: First in Japanese

Quote:
Nathan Gidney wrote:
I think the concept of "first" in japanese (as in, the first step for baking a cake) is "Mazu" if my highschool japanese is holding out. Anyone out there to back me up?
From my limited knowledge of Japanese, "mazu" is used when describing the first step in a process. It's equivalent to "At first/To begin with". Mazu is written as 先ず (using the character 'sen' in sensei), meaning ahead.
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