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Old 05-13-2006, 02:32 AM   #26
Michael Meister
Dojo: South Hetton
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Don't know, don't care. I don't practice Aikido to fight, I'm not interested in fighting or going up against other people or arts to test what I do. Does that make me weak or my Aikido ineffective? Does it mean that what I study is of no use? I guess if I ever find myself in a "situation", I'll find out.

Until then, I'm gonna carry on enjoying my practice, learning how to make people fall over, having fun and working on the Aikido principles of not fighting (which obviously require more practice as I posted in this thread ).

rgds
Bryan
I couldn't have said this better.
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Old 05-13-2006, 07:29 AM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Talking Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
.............You will have a hard time, because I'm coming with the real knives, live blade katana and a kalashnikov.

hope to see you soon Aldie!
And, of course, the "Tenkan of Steel"

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Old 05-13-2006, 08:21 AM   #28
NagaBaba
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Aldie Vilan wrote:
Wow!.. I don't think if your still training to be effective in Aikido that you would dare do tenkan or all sorts of techniques with real knives, or guns or whatever.. right?.. I have not heard of such a dojo..
How little you know! Founder of aikido did it himself.

Quote:
Aldie Vilan wrote:
But anyway the real purpose of it all using FAKE as you say is safety.. surely no one would want to be responsible for chopping off someone else's fingers or arms .. or cutting yourself..
If you don't know how to cut for real, you are not combat effective.
Quote:
Aldie Vilan wrote:
Anyway the real purpose their is to expose us practitioners on applying aikido techniques when your practice partner attacks you with let say a FAKE knife, or whatever..
Safety? now you are talking about safety?? Men, there is nothing safe in real combat. You can be dead in any second.

Soldiers in the army train to be combat effective. Do you think they should always use fake guns?
Instead of fire at the target with real gun, they will take wooden gun and say: "bum bum bum, you are dead !"
Looks like you don't know at all what combat effective is.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 05-13-2006, 08:26 AM   #29
statisticool
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Instead of fire at the target with real gun, they will take wooden gun and say: "bum bum bum, you are dead !"
No fights and death would ultimately be better for the world.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-13-2006, 08:26 AM   #30
NagaBaba
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
And, of course, the "Tenkan of Steel"
of course

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 05-13-2006, 09:09 AM   #31
Mark Freeman
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Don't know, don't care. I don't practice Aikido to fight, I'm not interested in fighting or going up against other people or arts to test what I do. Does that make me weak or my Aikido ineffective? Does it mean that what I study is of no use? I guess if I ever find myself in a "situation", I'll find out.

Until then, I'm gonna carry on enjoying my practice, learning how to make people fall over, having fun and working on the Aikido principles of not fighting (which obviously require more practice as I posted in this thread ).

rgds
Bryan
Well said Bryan, my sentiments entirely

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-13-2006, 09:38 AM   #32
Neal Earhart
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Don't know, don't care. I don't practice Aikido to fight, I'm not interested in fighting or going up against other people or arts to test what I do. Does that make me weak or my Aikido ineffective? Does it mean that what I study is of no use? I guess if I ever find myself in a "situation", I'll find out.

Until then, I'm gonna carry on enjoying my practice, learning how to make people fall over, having fun and working on the Aikido principles of not fighting (which obviously require more practice as I posted in this thread ).

rgds
Bryan
An excellent response...very well said !
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Old 05-13-2006, 11:54 AM   #33
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Aldie Vilan wrote:
Hi Raul,

Dude!.. it's now really on who or what a dojo is affiliated to.. that determines a sensei's skills and knowledge of Aikido. A sensei can attend to all the seminars and trainings there but still.. it all comes down to what really is a sensei's intention.. make business out of Aikido or pursue the true purpose of O'sensei for Aikido..

Yes, and a newbie can prattle on and on in Aikiweb about combat effectiveness but it doesn't mean he actually gets the point of aikido. There are some pretty skilled people in these forums, with 10 or 15 or 20 years experience with some of the best teachers in the world. If you're going to hold up your dojo as the paragon of combat effectiveness, then you shouldn't be surprised if they scoff at the idea that suddenly Dumaguete City has become the mecca of effective aikido.
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Old 05-13-2006, 06:28 PM   #34
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
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Re: are you combat effective!

Just gonna throw in my naive 16-year-old opinion.

I don't think saying "I just practise Aikido to learn not to fight" is good enough. Do everything you can not to, but be prepared to anyway.

I go to a highschool where I encounter enough aggressive people in my day (Naturally, highschool being the capital of teenage ego and wannabee badass-ness) and I have to deal with it peacefully.

It never hurts to train to be peaceful and at the same time bear in mind that someday you might get in a quirky situation which you can't simply walk away from .

-Roman
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Old 05-13-2006, 09:17 PM   #35
Stephen Pate
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Soldiers in the army train to be combat effective. Do you think they should always use fake guns?
Instead of fire at the target with real gun, they will take wooden gun and say: "bum bum bum, you are dead !"
We shoot each other with real guns, just fake bullets.

You must obey the Dance Commander.
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Old 05-14-2006, 04:05 AM   #36
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

although I have done my share of "bum, bum, bum" in the army too, mainly during rehearsal though as a prelude to blank fire, simunitions, and culminating with live fires. At least that was the idea. Still when bum, bum, bum alot!

I can certainly understand where Bryan Bateman is coming from and tend to agree for the most part. I think though it is a paradox. In aikido we train to "not fight", or what I prefer to say "to resolve conflict as skillfully as possible".

The paradox is that in order to be able to do this we must understand conflict as much as possible. The closer we can get to it, the more we study it and experience it the better we can understand it.

That does not mean we need to immerse ourselves in utter chaos and violence, becaue that too, can be unhealthly!

There is a "middle road" we can take I believe. That middle road will be different for each person. It is up to each individual to discover that road on their own. Aikido can be a good methodology to base finding that road.

I do think though, especially in aikido, we need to be careful as it is very tempting to hide behind the hakama, bokken, and all the trappings and say "I feel good about what I am doing", and "this peace and harmony stuff is wonderful!".

Dismissing the "darkside" of things and only concentrating on the "good" is not necessarily the right thing to do if we want to grow. Again, it is up to the individual to define what that is to them!

Counter to that, focusing on the tactical applications of aikido, the so-called "SU" side of things, focusing on situational/scenario based training all the time is not good either. Again...the middle road is the way to go, IMO.
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Old 05-14-2006, 07:12 AM   #37
Michael Meister
Dojo: South Hetton
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Re: are you combat effective!

In the Discworld novels of Terry Pratchett you find something along the lines, the most important thing about magic, is learning when not to use it, and the most powerful wizards are those who use magic the least...
One important thing is, in order to decide not to do, or to use something, you need to have the opportunity, the skill, the means to do or use it. This is not only a philosophical approach, it can get transmitted by the way people act, talk whatsoever.
Fact is, I did not start Aikido to learn to fight, or defend myself. I was looking for some kind of sport, and Aikido ended up being it. Some people probably are practising Aikido to learn a was to fight. In the end, what you get, is what you have been looking for.
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Old 05-14-2006, 09:00 PM   #38
aldie
Dojo: Kobujutsu Aikido Ryu
Location: Dumaguete City
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Re: are you combat effective!

Hi,

Wow!.. well anyway I do believe any dojo's training depends entirely on the preference and the orientation of it's sensei.. then its now up to you to ask is this the dojo for me or not.. our sensei.. is a member of the law enforcement here.. I do believe that his orientation in law enforcement has a great deal of influence on our training and instruction and we are glad of it. We get to learn a great deal of hand to hand, hand to armed, and armed to armed skills and knowledge.

In our training we get to appreciate the other forms of Martial Arts and saw its effectiveness and learn a great deal on its weaknesses and most off all learn the reason on why pursue this other Martial Arts when you can have Aikido. Through that I believe it added up to our appreciation and understanding of Aikido.

What really drive me to ask on "combat effectiveness" was to really to try to see how you see Aikido. Anyway thank you..
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Old 05-14-2006, 09:08 PM   #39
mathewjgano
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
No one really knows how they will come out in a fight. You might perceive in your head how you'd wish things might turn out based on the conception of what you think you will incur in a "combat" fight (whatever that is). The truth is you don't know.
There are too many issues that come into play. The only thing you can do is to prepare yourself mentally, physically, and spiritually to be ready when the time comes.
Sometimes you are the bug, sometimes you are the windshield!
Hopefully you do all you can to minimize exposure and reduce risk. With a little bit of skill, and some luck thrown in...well you might survive....it just depends. No matter how good you are, everybody can be beaten and killed.
Well said! I'm more prepared in some forms of combat than others, but this world is simply huge and that leaves a lot of room to be blind-sided.
Gambatte,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-14-2006, 09:21 PM   #40
mathewjgano
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Aldie Vilan wrote:
Are you combat effective!.. a point may come that you have to defend yourself.. can you be effective enough to survive an actual combat..
Hi Aldie,
how do you define "combat"? I see many people interpret the word in some very specific ways, but I'm curious about your interpretation of the word.
Take care!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-15-2006, 09:52 AM   #41
bratzo_barrena
Dojo: Aikido Goshin Dojo
Location: Doral
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Re: are you combat effective!

We can read the opinion of many aikido who state that "Aikido trians you not to fight."
If by "not to fight" they mean Aikido trains you to AVOID a "physical confrontation", they are 100% wrong. It just makes no sense.
The training of Aikido by its own nature teaches us to SOLVE a physical confrontation, not to avoid it.
Let's just use logic, we spend hours and hours, years actually, training what how to handle attacks, physicall attacks.
We dedicate a lot of effort to learn how Aikido principles are used to control a physical situation. Through Aikido principles we learn to SOLVE a PHYSICAL CONFRONATION in a non aggresive, non-competitive, non-violent way, when UNAVOIDABLE.
It just makes no sense that O'sensei dedicated his life to develope a martial art, and a training system based on a simulation of a physical confrontation, and then say Aikido is teaches to avoid conflict.
Lets use logic, the nature of Aikido training, the nature of Aikido principles, are to be used IN A PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION.
Now that its concepts could apply to other aspects of life, sure, but that does not deny the real nature of AIkido.
Even that a person trains just for fun, or health, or to be illuminated (what ever one's interpretation of that) does not deny nor contardicts the physical application and nature of AIkido.
And that is the same with any martial art or combat sport. One could say "I train box not to fight, but for cardio" which is great, but that does not deny the fact that box is for fighting.
So logic says Aikido trains people to SOLVE a physical confrontation when unavoidable, not to avoid physical confrontations.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL
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Old 05-15-2006, 10:15 AM   #42
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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Re: are you combat effective!

I have been combating allergies all week and losing miserably. This damn Aikido doesn't at all work against such an enemy. I had to do combat against kidney stones last month and I won that one. I used the old Aikido deep breathing technique extended Ki through my lower parts and blew them away.

By the way combat ready aikido is an oxymoron

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 05-15-2006, 03:19 PM   #43
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
...many aikido state that "Aikido trians you not to fight."
If by "not to fight" they mean Aikido trains you to AVOID a "physical confrontation", they are 100% wrong.
Sorry, they aren't. They are precisely right. You are largely wrong, however.
Quote:
It just makes no sense.
To you, perhaps. Have you done your homework?
Quote:
Let's just use logic
OK. But we limit ourselves thereby. We ought also to use history and context. And they often contradict logic. Just think of governmental supports for tobacco (history of economic necessity for a critical export)...today when we know how medacious is tobacco. It's not logical, but it is explainable.
Quote:
It just makes no sense that O'sensei dedicated his life to develope a martial art, and a training system based on a simulation of a physical confrontation, and then say Aikido is teaches to avoid conflict.
The founder was the one who said (repeated, actually), "I am the universe."

Can you say, "part for whole substitution"?

Training is an enactment of conflict with ritual resolutions of it. Every part of aikido extrapolated from the concrete to the abstract in the mind of the founder. For those lacking knowledge or imagination, it may be nothing but fighting. Others have gone beyond this.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 05-15-2006, 03:23 PM   #44
Don_Modesto
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Re: are you combat effective!

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
I had to do combat against kidney stones last month and I won that one. I used the old Aikido deep breathing technique extended Ki through my lower parts and blew them away.
I'm betting they were polished upon evacuation!

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 05-15-2006, 06:22 PM   #45
JamesDavid
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Re: are you combat effective!

I am not combat effective but my lawyer is

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Old 05-15-2006, 07:41 PM   #46
Tennessee Mike
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Re: are you combat effective!

Combat Effective. How does one put oneself in the situation to prove they are combat effective? First it doesn't sound like aikido. Second, when I look at operational risk management, it doesn't seem beneficial to create a situation where one is at real risk. Therefore, we set up rules and find partners to help us increase the mastery of the skills that we do have while lowering the risk of injuries.

As for using live weapons, I have heard of people practicing iaido who have injured themselves and they were practicing solo in a controlled environment. You can add about any weapon there is. Someone has managed a way to accidentally hurt themselves with their own weapon.

I would also say that there is more than combat effective techniques. There is the aikidoka. It doesn't matter what martial art you know or weapon you have, if you freeze or do not act appropriately to the situation then you are not very combat effective.
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Old 05-16-2006, 01:26 PM   #47
billybob
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

Modesto San
Quote:
Training is an enactment of conflict with ritual resolutions of it. Every part of aikido extrapolated from the concrete to the abstract in the mind of the founder. For those lacking knowledge or imagination, it may be nothing but fighting. Others have gone beyond this.
Wow. You do deliver.

I started judo to learn to kick ass! I stayed because I learned to avoid having my own ass kicked. I discovered my true power when I let the techniques turn into expresssions of joy. My attacker was my father. Killing him would have been to kill myself. I literally had to love my enemy. When I felt free of the need to learn to kill, the movement of judo was a pure expression of the joy of life.

I recently faced pain and fear I've been hiding from for 25 years. I think if I can trust a surgeon to use a knife on me and not kill (or castrate) me I may be able to let go of a lot of pain, a testicle long ago rendered useless, and be good at aikido, whether or not I give a damn about being 'combat ready'. I may not study another minute - but aikido has worked as advertised - the enemy was my own fears!

dave
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Old 05-16-2006, 01:32 PM   #48
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: are you combat effective!

A good reason to study aikido Dave! Thanks for sharing!
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Old 05-16-2006, 03:56 PM   #49
emma.mason15
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Re: are you combat effective!

Im gunna continue with the whole "running away thing"!
....
...
ohhhhh .... look whats over there!
....
....
*footsteps can be heard running away!*

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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Old 05-16-2006, 08:31 PM   #50
aldie
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Re: are you combat effective!

I'm sure that what I have written below will spark anger or whatever. I don't care I'm just simply sharing to you my personal view on the issue…

I asked the question "are you combat effective" for I am confused with some Aikido practitioners if for the reason they are practicing Aikido because of the principles or teachings it has on conflict resolution, fighting without fighting, and on and on.. well this principles and this teachings is not new just about any Religion teaches this. If you are after this then wow clearly your wasting your time with Aikido why not join a religious organization and there you will find where all this principles are and I'm sure there is no entrance fee or monthly fees for retaining your membership. Surely the teachings there are far reaching than what Aikido is offering.
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