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Old 08-17-2000, 08:45 AM   #1
akiy
 
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Quote:
Cas Long wrote in a different thread:
In my experience, Yonkyo proves more effective on the thinner, more tensile arm , & is more "difficult" to apply on an arm which is thicker.....this is because the technique relies on the compression of the radial nerve which appears closer to the surface of the first type of arm than the latter.
I'd have to disagree with the above. In my opinion, yonkyo is not a pain compliance technique. In fact, I don't think any technique in aikido relies on pain but on kuzushi or balance breaking.

Sure, the pain part might be there, but it needn't be nor should it be relied upon. Better in my opinion to treat techniques like nikkyo and yonkyo as balance breaking techniques than pain-producing ones. The pain is just the icing on the proverbial cake in my mind...

-- Jun

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Old 08-17-2000, 09:21 AM   #2
E.J. Nella
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I agree Jun! I have really noticed the focus on pain compliance in Yonkyo. More than once I've seen folks standing there in intense concentration trying to find "it". Meanwhile, Uke is standing there looking at them with plenty of time to do a reversal or worse! Quite a while ago I learned a lot from a woman in the mid Kyu ranks that was having nothing but trouble getting some of her thicker forearmed partners to twitch in pain from the technique. She started focusing on not trying to get the pressure point (she just placed her hand on the forearm) and focused on taking Ukes' balance. What a revelation! Once she got that out of the way and under control, she is able to get the pressure point easier and under safer circumstances (while Uke is already off balance or on the ground).

I also understand where Cas is coming from though; it seems the thicker the arm the more difficult is to find the "point of pain". I have found that the thicker the forearm the closer one needs be towards the wrist to get that Yonkyo jolt.

One other point of interest to me regarding Yonkyo is that in Acupuncture, the Yonkyo pressure point is the heart meridian. I took some Tai Chi from a Sifu that also ran an Acupuncture school and when he showed the point where they put the needle into someone having a heart attack, it was right there! He finds the point by putting the web of his hand (between his thumb and forefinger) to the web of the patients' hand (same place) and touches the forearm with his middle finger. That is where the needle is placed. Kinda cool, eh?

E.J.
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Old 08-17-2000, 09:38 AM   #3
Cas Long
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Jun....

Hi,

If you read my thread in Yonkyo in its whole form, I was not the one mentioning pain or bruises, but how the technique works from a physiological viewpoint, as the index finger does indeed manipulate the radial nerve- this is only one element of the technique. Please allow me to quote what else I said:

"However, although Yonkyo pressure is "easier" to perform on a more slender
arm,it is possible to perform it on a thicker arm if the movement involved in exposing the radial nerve is three-dimensional; therefore the hips play a greater part in the technique than the arms.

Strong, centralised hip movement should always overcome the strength in one arm,
especially when the Uke's balance is completely taken, & everything remains in the Nage's centre."

I think that with this view as a whole,
that I also cover your point.

Kind Regards,



Peace,
Cas

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Old 08-17-2000, 10:34 AM   #4
akiy
 
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Hi Cas,

Yes, I did read what you wrote, but I just wanted to express my disagreement that yonkyo relies on pain.

My thought is that yonkyo does not necessarily involve the radial nerve but is, as is the rest of aikido, more reliant upon balance breaking. I feel that relying upon finding the pressure point is a lot less reliable than working towards a balance break.

I've been the recipient of very effective yonkyo which did not produce an ounce of pain...
-- Jun

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Old 08-17-2000, 11:55 AM   #5
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Jun,

I agree with your post. Pain tolerance is different in everyone. The inability to stand up due to structural problems affects us all.

Many aikidoka think that a combination of the two is the answer. Of course, it is an option.

I do not like to "cause pain" though. I think when we create the pain it is a direct link to our center and where our power is coming from. If we lock a joint (kime) and have the uke's structure so off-balance that the only way they can regain their posture is to cause their own pain into the locked joint or take the ukemi it is very difficult to counter or get away. Of course we should lock the uke into a control after the initial technique so they must "give up" in order to get out of the situation.

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-17-2000, 01:09 PM   #6
Chris
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Wink

Quote:
akiy wrote:
Quote:
Cas Long wrote in a different thread:
In my experience, Yonkyo proves more effective on the thinner, more tensile arm , & is more "difficult" to apply on an arm which is thicker.....this is because the technique relies on the compression of the radial nerve which appears closer to the surface of the first type of arm than the latter.
I'd have to disagree with the above. In my opinion, yonkyo is not a pain compliance technique. In fact, I don't think any technique in aikido relies on pain but on kuzushi or balance breaking.

Sure, the pain part might be there, but it needn't be nor should it be relied upon. Better in my opinion to treat techniques like nikkyo and yonkyo as balance breaking techniques than pain-producing ones. The pain is just the icing on the proverbial cake in my mind...

-- Jun
Hi Jun,

I am having some difficulty understanding your post and was wondering if you could clarify for me.

First of all, I have read your quote of Cas Long's post and nowhere do I find any mention of the word 'pain', so I was wondering where you made the association?

I would also agree with you that it is absolutely necessary to take the Uke's balance to execute any technique correctly.
Having said that, I am wondering why ‘O'-Sensei would have spent many long arduous years codifying the techniques of Aikido into the specific groupings that we know today, if balance-breaking was the sole function and purpose of the techniques. After all, there are easier ways to unbalance someone than Nikyo or Sankyo!

A for-instance: In Kata dori, the Nage must move off the line to unbalance the Uke before even thinking of executing any of Ikkyo through Yonkyo, if they do not want to open themselves to possible further attack.
Once the Uke has been initially unbalanced, it is necessary to make sure that they stay unbalanced until completion of the movement (whatever that may be). It seems to me that the diversity of the technical movements must exist to teach the student various principles.

Yonkyo is the fourth principle of immobilisation, and pre-supposes a very firm grasp of the principles contained in Ikkyo through Sankyo.
The successful execution of Yonkyo requires good technique, because the immobilisation must be performed in a very precise manner.

On page 49 of ‘O'-Sensei's training manual Budo it states in the note for technique 15. (Yonkyo):
"Placement of your (left) hand in this technique is as follows: hold the opponent's wrist tightly with both the little and ring fingers and use the knuckle at the base of the index finger to apply strong pressure to his pulse. (This is known as "Pin Number Four.")"

To reach this position and make the hand changes, it is necessary, in the basic forms, to pass through Ikkyo and Sankyo. This is because the pressure stimulates and compresses the radial nerve.
Once again, I have to agree with Cas in this respect, and it is interesting that ‘O'-Sensei states that we must use ‘ strong pressure'. The technique's definition is after all ‘Tekubi Osae' or wrist pinning or control.

The radial nerve wraps around the humerus in the radial groove. It runs anteriorly and divides into a superficial and deep branch. It is on the radial side of the arm, around the radius, about 5 cm upwards from the crease of the wrist, that the nerve is closest to the surface.
The turning of the Uke's forearm in both Omote and Ura variations serves to bring the nerve as far upwards towards the surface as possible, whilst still keeping Uke off-balance.

The pressure is then applied to this area (and sometimes in Ura variations against the outside of the radial bone) in a concentrated Ken-holding manner.
This maybe why the study of Aiki-Ken and Aiki-Jo is so necessary to Tai-Jutsu…but this is the subject of another thread!

It is of course necessary, as I have said, to keep the Uke continually off-balance, and the immobilisation must be completed as I think Cas said, in a three-dimensional movement, using strong co-ordinated hip turns.
The final pin should still maintain the pressure on Uke's forearm but also completes Uke's immobilisation on the mat through the shoulder, and ensures an inability to escape by a rotation of the hips to the outside. This is all based on the Yonkyo grab being in the Nage's centre-line.

I would say that 'pain' is a by-product of the technique being executed correctly. Since the radial nerve when found and pressured can be quite sensitive. Strong pressure can sometimes lead to a brief inability to extend the hand at the wrist.
Clearly though, depending on various body types, the nerve is sometimes hard to access and with forearm development through techniques like Nikyo, and the study of Aiki-Ken, can be all but impossible to find. As you have rightly pointed out, Yonkyo is still possible without ‘pain', so the complete form of the technique must be studied from the initial un-balancing right up to the final pin.

I would venture to suggest the you slightly misinterpreted the sense of Cas's post, since she spoke only of finding it difficult to locate the radial nerve and cause compression in certain body types and then went on to say that full use of the hips and body is necessary to complete the movement and un-balance Uke.
I think that the technique is designed to impart Ken holding principles through the holding pattern and the development of strong hip turns in the pin. ‘Pain' results when the technique is precisely applied.

I would draw all practitioners' attention to a quote of ‘O'-Sensei that appears in Morihiro Saito's Traditional Aikido Vol 4 on page 18:
"The Founder, however, strictly warned that 'a technique will lose its effectiveness unless it is delivered with perfect precision.'"

Only my thoughts.

Chris Tozer




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Old 08-17-2000, 01:44 PM   #7
akiy
 
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Quote:
Chris wrote:

First of all, I have read your quote of Cas Long's post and nowhere do I find any mention of the word 'pain', so I was wondering where you made the association?
Her mentioning the necessity to manipulate the radial nerve is what brings me to think about pain in this instance.

I'm curious -- is there a way to compress the radial nerve and not cause pain?
Quote:

Having said that, I am wondering why ‘O'-Sensei would have spent many long arduous years codifying the techniques of Aikido into the specific groupings that we know today
Inasmuch as I understand it, he didn't. The naming schemes and the categorization of the techniques were applied by his students, not by the founder. I could be wrong, though...
Quote:
if balance-breaking was the sole function and purpose of the techniques. After all, there are easier ways to unbalance someone than Nikyo or Sankyo!
I never said that the sole purpose of techniques was kuzushi. I just said that the kuzushi aspect for me is more important than the causastion of pain that so many people I've met focus on.
Quote:
On page 49 of ‘O'-Sensei's training manual Budo it states in the note for technique 15. (Yonkyo):
"Placement of your (left) hand in this technique is as follows: hold the opponent's wrist tightly with both the little and ring fingers and use the knuckle at the base of the index finger to apply strong pressure to his pulse.
I used to have a copy of the original "Budo Renshu" that the founder wrote in Japanese. I wish I still had it.

However, no where above does the founder refer to "pain"...

Quote:
The technique's definition is after all ‘Tekubi Osae' or wrist pinning or control.
"Osae" comes from the verb "osaeru" which basically means "to hold down."
Quote:
I would say that 'pain' is a by-product of the technique being executed correctly.
[snip]
As you have rightly pointed out, Yonkyo is still possible without ‘pain', so the complete form of the technique must be studied from the initial un-balancing right up to the final pin.
That's about all I wanted to say.
Quote:
I would venture to suggest the you slightly misinterpreted the sense of Cas's post, since she spoke only of finding it difficult to locate the radial nerve and cause compression in certain body types and then went on to say that full use of the hips and body is necessary to complete the movement and un-balance Uke.
I can't certainly say what Cas meant because I'm not her. I took what she wrote about needing to compress the radial nerve as meaning that you have to cause pain. And, as I wrote above, I ventured to say that pain is not necessary in yonkyo (or nikyo, sankyo, etc).

I do apologize if I misinterpreted Cas as that was not my intention. I just personally dislike it when people think yonkyo is a good time to take Jun's otherwise spindly little forearm and crush it to bits; makes me want to poke out an eyeball or two...

-- Jun

PS: Good discussion, by the way.

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Old 08-17-2000, 03:51 PM   #8
Chris
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Talking

[quote]akiy wrote:
Quote:
Chris wrote:

First of all, I have read your quote of Cas Long's post and nowhere do I find any mention of the word 'pain', so I was wondering where you made the association?
Quote:
akiy wrote:

Her mentioning the necessity to manipulate the radial nerve is what brings me to think about pain in this instance.

I'm curious -- is there a way to compress the radial nerve and not cause pain?
I think we need to make a clear distinction. The compression of the radial nerve is the technical requirement of Yonkyo. The fact that it causes pain is of secondary importance. It is the way of holding and applying pressure to the wrist that creates the condition that is called Yonkyo or Tekubi Osae.
I have not presented the condition of pain as a pre-requisite for the successful execution of the technique. Merely that when executed correctly and precisely, pain will more often than not, be the result. In my opinion, if you do not pressure the wrist it is not Yonkyo and it should then be called something else.


Quote:

Chris wrote:

The technique's definition is after all ‘Tekubi Osae' or wrist pinning or control.
Quote:
akiy wrote:

"Osae" comes from the verb "osaeru" which basically means "to hold down."
This is correct. I think in terms of the English language, that we are using here, ‘pinning' and ‘control', which are also dictionary meanings for ‘Osae', convey the same meaning as ‘hold down', or are we getting bogged down with semantics?

Quote:

Chris wrote:

Having said that, I am wondering why ‘O'-Sensei would have spent many long arduous years codifying the techniques of Aikido into the specific groupings that we know today
Quote:
akiy wrote:

Inasmuch as I understand it, he didn't. The naming schemes and the categorization of the techniques were applied by his students, not by the founder. I could be wrong, though...
You are quite right, insofaras the nomenclature of techniques is concerned, it was created by the Founder's students. What I was referring to, and I apologise for not having been clearer, is the photographic and textual evidence left to us in the only manual where the Founder posed for the technical sequences himself; his 1938 manual ‘Budo'. I belive that this serves as a clear indication of a development towards the techniques as we know them today. Hence my reference to it below…

Quote:

Chris wrote:

On page 49 of ‘O'-Sensei's training manual Budo it states in the note for technique 15. (Yonkyo):
"Placement of your (left) hand in this technique is as follows: hold the opponent's wrist tightly with both the little and ring fingers and use the knuckle at the base of the index finger to apply strong pressure to his pulse.
Quote:
akiy wrote:

I used to have a copy of the original "Budo Renshu" that the founder wrote in Japanese. I wish I still had it.

However, no where above does the founder refer to "pain"...
Jun, you are confusing the older, 1933 manual, with line drawings by Takako Kunigoshi, with the older 1938 photographic manual.
You are quite right to say that there is no reference to pain, but I did not say that there was. I was merely stating the technical requirement in Yonkyo, as stated by the Founder, to strongly pressure the Uke's wrist.

Quote:

Chris wrote:

if balance-breaking was the sole function and purpose of the techniques. After all, there are easier ways to unbalance someone than Nikyo or Sankyo!
Quote:
akiy wrote:

I never said that the sole purpose of techniques was kuzushi. I just said that the kuzushi aspect for me is more important than the causastion of pain that so many people I've met focus on.
I don't think that is actually what you said originally :

Quote:
akiy wrote:

Better in my opinion to treat techniques like nikkyo and yonkyo as balance breaking techniques than pain-producing ones.
I'm sorry, but to me that reads as though the techniques of Nikyo and Yonkyo are for the purpose of balance-breaking. Maybe I did misread, but my question remains; are there not easier ways of balance-breaking than complex manipulation of the joints?

You have since added
Quote:
[snip]
the causastion of pain that so many people I've met focus on.
I would agree with you that many people are fixed on the idea of causing pain. My contention is that the techniques of Aikido will cause pain when executed correctly, but that pain is not the aim of the technique. Nowhere have I said that pain is to be relied upon.

Quote:

Chris wrote:

I would say that 'pain' is a by-product of the technique being executed correctly.
[snip]
As you have rightly pointed out, Yonkyo is still possible without ‘pain', so the complete form of the technique must be studied from the initial un-balancing right up to the final pin.
Quote:
akiy wrote:

That's about all I wanted to say.
Then we are in agreement! It came across to me when I read your post that pain in the techniques was almost something to be avoided....

Quote:

Chris wrote:

I would venture to suggest the you slightly misinterpreted the sense of Cas's post, since she spoke only of finding it difficult to locate the radial nerve and cause compression in certain body types and then went on to say that full use of the hips and body is necessary to complete the movement and un-balance Uke.
Quote:
akiy wrote:

I can't certainly say what Cas meant because I'm not her. I took what she wrote about needing to compress the radial nerve as meaning that you have to cause pain. And, as I wrote above, I ventured to say that pain is not necessary in yonkyo (or nikyo, sankyo, etc).
As I said in my post, the pressure on the wrist and the compression of the radial nerve is the condition of Yonkyo. What makes the technique effective is the use of concentrated hip power, which will be successful whether there is pain or not. The form of the technique nonetheless, remains outwardly the same.

I am very interested to know who you apply Nikyo and Sankyo without causing any pain to your Uke.
Also how do the techniques of Ikkyo through Yonkyo strengthen the body if there is no stimulation of the joints.


akiy wrote:

Quote:
makes me want to poke out an eyeball or two...
Hmmmm…now there's real pain!


Chris Tozer
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Old 08-17-2000, 04:44 PM   #9
akiy
 
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Quote:
Chris wrote:
I think we need to make a clear distinction. The compression of the radial nerve is the technical requirement of Yonkyo. The fact that it causes pain is of secondary importance.
[snip]
I have not presented the condition of pain as a pre-requisite for the successful execution of the technique. Merely that when executed correctly and precisely, pain will more often than not, be the result. In my opinion, if you do not pressure the wrist it is not Yonkyo and it should then be called something else.
The part about pain not necessarily being a part of yonkyo is fair enough. I just assumed that when people talk about compressing the radial nerve as being a prerequisite for yonkyo that they were talking about causing pain.
Quote:
Jun, you are confusing the older, 1933 manual, with line drawings by Takako Kunigoshi, with the older 1938 photographic manual.
I guess I am. Now that you mention it, I still have the book "Budo" somewhere...
Quote:
I'm sorry, but to me that reads as though the techniques of Nikyo and Yonkyo are for the purpose of balance-breaking.
No, I can't say that's what I mean; sorry if it conveyed that message. I meant that (as I wrote in a different place which you quoted above which I've snipped) I treat the balance breaking part to be a lot more important.
Quote:
Maybe I did misread, but my question remains; are there not easier ways of balance-breaking than complex manipulation of the joints?
Of course. But, in my opinion, that doesn't mean that the kuzushi aspect should be any less important...

Our dojo (and my teacher) is very big on applying kuzushi (at the latest) at the first point of contact. The same goes for techniques like yonkyo for us. Of course, I'm not saying that no one else does this but that we emphasize this a lot more than most people. We don't even talk about the "yonkyo pressure point," really, but treat it as a technique that's probably closer to sumi otoshi.
Quote:
My contention is that the techniques of Aikido will cause pain when executed correctly, but that pain is not the aim of the technique. Nowhere have I said that pain is to be relied upon.
I don't think I was accusing you of relying upon pain; I was just making a general comment upon those I've met who have.

However, I'll have to disagree with your contention that aikido techniques when executed correctly will cause pain. I personally don't think they need to, as I've felt a lot of techniques (including yonkyo and nikyo) which were effective on me and did not cause me pain.
Quote:
Then we are in agreement! It came across to me when I read your post that pain in the techniques was almost something to be avoided....
I wouldn't say "to be avoided," but I would say "that is not necessary"...
Quote:
I am very interested to know who you apply Nikyo and Sankyo without causing any pain to your Uke.
Me? I can hardly apply an effective technique unless there happens to be an earthquake just at the right time to make my partner fall down!

I have, however, felt people who have been able to effectively take my balance and take me to the ground using techniques like nikyo, sankyo, and yonkyo without pain.
Quote:
Also how do the techniques of Ikkyo through Yonkyo strengthen the body if there is no stimulation of the joints.
What about those funky stretches we all do at the beginning of class?

-- Jun

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Old 08-17-2000, 04:59 PM   #10
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Quote:

I have, however, felt people who have been able to effectively take my balance and take me to the ground using techniques like nikyo, sankyo, and yonkyo without pain.
You still haven't told me how this was done, and I really am interested to know how (honestly).

I'm not trying to be smart or anything.

Could you explain this for Nikyo as an example, and how it was done to you?

No problem if you can't.
It was great talking with you.





[Edited by chris on August 17, 2000 at 06:00pm]

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Old 08-17-2000, 06:54 PM   #11
Shipley
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painless

Funny, I was always taught to use the radius for yonkyo and specifically not to aim for the nerve. The reasoning given was that if you get used to having the pain of stimulating the radial nerve aid in the throw you will not be able to do the technique well against somebody with a high pain threshold. Of course, my sensei also said that should you happen to find it without looking for it...

As far as nikyo and sankyo being painless, I have been thrown using both those techniques without anything more than a mild stretching, no pain at all. I don't know if I've ever achieved that myself, it's a little hard to tell on the throwing end. Especially with nikyo I feel it when nage breaks my balance, then uses the focus against my forearm to drop me into his center. This, of course, would only work if uke was trying to attack with the other hand, but that seems to me to be the point of the technique anyhow.

It also seems that any time spent finding the pain in a technique is a lovely time for uke to dot your i's and cross your t's.

Just my opinions of course,

Paul
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Old 08-17-2000, 07:29 PM   #12
Chocolateuke
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yonkyo works with or without the nerve my teacher ( still cant spell ( I cant spell i mean describes the throw like a wirlwind or tornado u point the arm where u want it to go then pivot this is oversiplifyed but bacicaly wiat it is. or the revers picot then point they both work and hardly fail.

on net fealing pain and just break balance is easy u move with their arm arm and they fall
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Old 08-17-2000, 07:32 PM   #13
Chocolateuke
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sorry about spelling.. how do u edit ur post? anyhow wiat is what
and picot is pivot revers like backwards cant spell it though
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Old 08-17-2000, 09:20 PM   #14
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i'm way over my head here, but i can't resist. I'm way too much of a beginner to speak with any meaning on radial nerve vs. balance vs. radius pressure vs pushing on the wrist...but i can tell you what i do and don't feel. I don't feel yonkyo as a pain technique. yes, perhaps if YOU do it, i will, but probably not. i don't know why, i may just be pain tolerant, or i'm wired funny. so no matter how precisely nage places his hands, he probably is not going to be on the nerve, or it doesn't necessarily cause pain. or both. i do know that i often stand there watching my nage while he searches, for what seems like a LONG time. even when i warn my partner i won't feel the pressure point. like with Jun, they seem to enjoy squeezing my thin little arm. so when i think of yonkyo, what i want to get, is how i feel the technique from the few who don't even look for that point: the slack being taken out of my arm and a cut to my center with it---which doesn't hurt, either, but looks amazingly like yonkyo. so i think you can definately do this technique (correctly) without pain. i wish i could tell you how nikyo, sankyo, and rokyo are done without pain---because i've been on the receiving end of painless versions of all. it just felt like a very solid connection (not clash) with nage and then i was turning inside myself. maybe its a practice thing, or maybe the focus of nage has to be on connection and center, rather than the joint. it just feels really different than one that uses the joint pain only---to this very junior white belt at least.
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Old 08-17-2000, 11:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Chris wrote:
Could you explain this for Nikyo as an example, and how it was done to you?[/b]
Since I can't do it, it's really hard for me to explain. But, in the case of nikyo (the version with uke's hand on nage's shoulder), it really felt like nage sort of "sucked" me in (suikomi) toward his center as he was applying the nikyo. Rather than the usual sort of impact one would feet in the wrist, I just sort of felt my center being drawn and down. It sort of felt like a"wave" that went through me starting at my hand, on through my arm, and affecting my center that drew me in.

Maybe some day I'll be able to do something resembling this. Maybe then I'll be able to describe it better.

Good discussion. Really made me think...

-- Jun

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Old 08-18-2000, 12:01 AM   #16
akiy
 
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Quote:
Chocolateuke wrote:
sorry about spelling.. how do u edit ur post
Just hit the button at the top of the post that you wish to edit.

Also, I personally find the the "u" and "ur" abbreviations hard to read. I know it's the vogue thing to do in IRC and such, but...

-- Jun

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Old 08-18-2000, 02:47 AM   #17
Chris
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Wink Jerry's 'Final Thought'

Hi all,

A very interesting and revealing discussion.

I think everyone agrees that the application of Yonkyo is possible both with and without the 'pain' that results from pressuring the radial nerve or bone (see my previous posts), and can be done by focusing or not on this pressure, as the Nage wants, or as the Uke's body type dictates.

My argument is that the basic form of Yonkyo, as developed by the Founder, requires a pressuring of the wrist along with the un-balancing that occurs through a firm understanding of Ikkyo and Sankyo.
That is what makes it Yonkyo and why it is referred to as 'Tekubi Osae'.
I believe this Yonkyo form (and all the other forms) serves a distinct purpose, since the techniques are all vehicles for teaching principles that can be applied at any time, even out of context (of the technique).

From what people have replied, it looks as though my posts have been interpreted as 'having' to apply pain for this (or any other) technique to work.

Quote:
Paul wrote:
It also seems that any time spent finding the pain in a technique is a lovely time for uke to dot your i's and cross your t's.
I would like to clarify again:
I don't think that any time should be spent 'looking for' and/or 'finding' pain.
(Though I know what you mean Jun, when you say that causation of pain is the focus for many people.)

I have only stated that, in my experience, pain is often a by-product that comes from a correctly executed technique (ie. where there are no openings to escape or counter for the Uke). I totally agree that pain is not the purpose of the technique.

My experience is of course subjective, if that is not your experience, then that's fine too.




Chris Tozer
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Old 08-18-2000, 08:09 AM   #18
akiy
 
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Re: Jerry's 'Final Thought'

Quote:
Chris wrote:
My argument is that the basic form of Yonkyo, as developed by the Founder, requires a pressuring of the wrist along with the un-balancing that occurs through a firm understanding of Ikkyo and Sankyo.
I agree with this!
Quote:
I have only stated that, in my experience, pain is often a by-product that comes from a correctly executed technique (ie. where there are no openings to escape or counter for the Uke). I totally agree that pain is not the purpose of the technique.
I agree with this too!

I guess it might have just been the difference of you saying "toe may toe" and my saying "toe mah toe." Same same.

-- Jun

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Old 08-18-2000, 09:06 AM   #19
Cas Long
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Talking Great Debate

Its great to see two Masters at work!

Sure, kuzuchi is an integral part of the correct execution of any technique,
but we must always bear in mind the Founder's "Aim" of any given technique, even if we have difficulty in executing that technique.

The style of Aikido that I myself study, lends itself to scientific princples: Anatomy & Physics in conjuction with the Founder's "Aim".

This is not to say that I subscribe to inflicting pain at all costs to render a technique effective, as Aikido is multi-faceted & teaches us many things.

My emphasis is always on precision (tempered of course, to the level of the Uke),but I do feel that this precision warrants the title "Martial":
Precision does not always mean pain.
I can also appreciate the "Art" & the beauty of movement.

We are very fortunate to participate in an activity rich in dualities- this excellent thread illustrates this.

Many thanks Jun & Chris.....

[Edited by Cas Long on August 18, 2000 at 09:34am]

Peace,
Cas

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Old 08-28-2000, 09:26 AM   #20
Dan Hover
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Yes and Yes

[quote]Chris wrote:
[b]
Quote:
akiy wrote:
Quote:
Cas Long wrote in a different thread:
In my experience, Yonkyo proves more effective on the thinner, more tensile arm , & is more "difficult" to apply on an arm which is thicker.....this is because the technique relies on the compression of the radial nerve which appears closer to the surface of the first type of arm than the latter.
I'd have to disagree with the above. In my opinion, yonkyo is not a pain compliance technique. In fact, I don't think any technique in aikido relies on pain but on kuzushi or balance breaking.

Sure, the pain part might be there, but it needn't be nor should it be relied upon. Better in my opinion to treat techniques like nikkyo and yonkyo as balance breaking techniques than pain-producing ones. The pain is just the icing on the proverbial cake in my mind...

-- Jun
was wondering where you made the association?
Quote:
Having said that, I am wondering why ‘O'-Sensei would have spent many long arduous years codifying the techniques of Aikido into the specific groupings that we know today,
all the codifying that we know today actually came from Nidai doshu who standardized the Aikido Curriculum to help the internatinal spread. In so far as the pins are concerned these were not at all his own origin.

Quote:
I would say that 'pain' is a by-product of the technique being executed correctly. Since the radial nerve when found and pressured can be quite sensitive.

Yonkyo is still possible without ‘pain', so the complete form of the technique must be studied from the initial un-balancing right up to the final pin.
Aren't you in essence agreeing with what Jun just said?
Quote:
I think that the technique is designed to impart Ken holding principles through the holding pattern and the development of strong hip turns in the pin. ‘Pain' results when the technique is precisely applied.

as are most Aikido Techniques

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 08-28-2000, 07:52 PM   #21
guest1234
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the only thing i would object to is the statements that imply pain is the natural occurance or byproduct of the technique being applied precisely. some people do not feel the pressure point pain, and to think the lack of pain means imprecisely applied technique can lead nage to keep looking for something he'll never find, a painful spot.
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Old 08-28-2000, 08:02 PM   #22
Cas Long
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Talking

Ca,

Please read the entire post & the nuances within it- this point has already been dealt with.

May I asy, "Bravo" for your previous posts on "Training With Women...."

Peace,
Cas

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