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Old 05-02-2006, 01:43 PM   #101
mriehle
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Hi Michael, you wrote:

I really enjoyed your post, and as a collector of 'stupid ki tricks', would you let me know what it was that you did? my curiosity just wouldn't let me not ask the question

regards,
Mark
I wondered if someone would ask.

It's so simple, so obvious. Yet, if done sincerely I've never seen it not work. I learned it from Denis Burke of Andover Aikido.

Basically, someone is getting in your face, being confrontational. Turn in and stand next to him in a spirit of comradery and cooperation. You are now facing the same direction as he is. The trick is to completely commit to being "on his side". Now you can come to a reasonable understanding of how the situation should go.

I'm not sure that description is really adequate, but I think it's as close as you'll get in this kind of a discussion.

Like I said, even though I've done it on three separate occasions, it still amazes me how well it works. I'm sure there's someone out there it won't work with, but I've yet to run into that person. Moreover, the position you put yourself in requires a special effort on their part to pursue an attack at that point. Bonus!

I think, as well, that if you are "faking it", it will fail. Just turning in for the more advantageous(?) physical position will result in escalation rather than resolution, I suspect.

 
Old 05-02-2006, 03:53 PM   #102
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Guys
I have to go train. I will write later tonight about goals.

I am quite sure Ron will have his hands full with connection exercises. bag work, body drills, static and dynamic work, body punching and absorbing with me and my guys, and a mind full of things to play with. And I will offer him as much hands-on and rolling with me as he wishes.

Then.........I'm not a big drinker, so It will be dinner good conversation and much laughter.

I was thinking of throw-down with the previous tone of the thread and would gladly oblige. But Ron actually wants to learn something. How very "Ron-like" of him. Therefore, its going to be lots of fun. Several lurkers who know me are actually pleased I am finally opening up little.

Ron, once again you are spot on. I -am- hoping for some sense of commitment out of this revery. Otherwise it is just more Budo curiosity and a waste. No one is going to re-wire in a weekend.

Cheers
Dan
 
Old 05-03-2006, 07:19 AM   #103
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Well I don't do knife or any striking before I have to do presentations myself. I look bad enough already-can't imagine standing up in front of a planning board with a black eye or bruised knuckles.


Cheers
Dan
Hay Dan, I could tell you just how it feels. Over the years I have done just that in front of planning boards and city and county commissions. They can't quit grasp the concept of why. At least those of them that were never my students. Quite a few were or still are.

Dennis Hooker
Manager of Technical Services
METROPLAN ORLANDO
WWW.METROPLANORLANDO.COM

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:31 AM   #104
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I am quite sure Ron will have his hands full with connection exercises. bag work, body drills, static and dynamic work, body punching and absorbing with me and my guys, and a mind full of things to play with. And I will offer him as much hands-on and rolling with me as he wishes.
Y'know, it dawns on me that we could slip in a challenge of sorts here. Ron could go visit Dan and learn for X-number of days, whatever. Then I could meet with some volunteer of reasonably near ability to Ron for the same amount of time. Then Ron and the volunteer could arrange to get together and have a show-and-tell. Might encourage Dan to do his best.

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 05-03-2006, 10:29 AM   #105
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Better get down to the gauntlet shop, they're nearly sold out

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 05-03-2006, 12:24 PM   #106
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
Still, these are all just words. The attitude is what really matters. Getting yourself down into that correct attitude is the key, IME, to all the Stupid Ki Tricks.
I personally have never seen these bits on psychology ever commonly used as examples of ki or qi. Tohei has introduced a quasi-religion based on some of the exotic-appearing material in the physical ki, but that sort of thing is not considered mainstream. I.e., there seems to be an injection of psychology for "ki trick" that I completely disagree with. I'm sure if you get on my side, you'll see what I mean.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-03-2006, 01:46 PM   #107
mriehle
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I.e., there seems to be an injection of psychology for "ki trick" that I completely disagree with. I'm sure if you get on my side, you'll see what I mean.
As it happens, I agree on some level. But I can't argue with results.

So...

It finally dawned on me that there is an element of psychology to ki. At the most basic level it's what I characterize as "tricking your own mind into doing the right thing". So many of these "tricks" are about being in the right physical and mental state. Sometimes it's harder to get yourself out of your own head and allow yourself to do it right.

So we use visualizations to make us forget to get in our own way.

Once I'd made this mental leap, a lot of ki exercises that were completely beyond me suddenly became easy. No deep mystery involved, it's just getting out of your own way. In this I think the whole "ki as religion" thing is actually counterproductive.

The "turning in" trick is far more than psychology. This much I'm sure of. It's really amazing how it changes everyone in the room. The person being aggressive will actually hear you differently.

I do believe that people can "feel" ki coming from another person and will react to it, often without realizing what they are reacting to or even that they are reacting. I don't see this as some mystic energy wafting off our bodies ala "The Force", but I do see it as a real phenomenon. I have all kinds of ideas on what's actually going on there, most of which are probably completely wrong (so I won't share them), but they work for me.

Okay, so maybe I don't agree completely. I think ki is a very complex interaction between the people involved. There's a lot more than physics there. I wouldn't call it hypnosis, but I've noticed simply changing the way I present my ki can change the way people around me behave. This means - to me - the psychology is part of the equation.

And, in an attempt to bring this back on topic:

I wonder if some of the reason why blatant challenges are rare anymore has something to do with this. I can often walk into a MA school and tell just who I'm dealing with without speaking a word with them. I'm definitely not a guru with all-seeing mystical powers, so if I can do this, I'd expect someone who's at a higher level than I am would be able to as well.

What, then, would be gained by a challenge that you know you would win (I think it's safe to assume that most people wouldn't make a challenge they know they would lose)? Especially if the students in the class are actually learning something worthwhile even though the instructor may not be as good as you (presumably) are.

The only time I could see this as worthwhile would be if I walked in, found an absolute charlatan who was obviously ripping off his students. Even then, this might not be the best way to deal with it.

 
Old 05-03-2006, 04:34 PM   #108
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Hay Dan, I could tell you just how it feels. Over the years I have done just that in front of planning boards and city and county commissions. They can't quit grasp the concept of why. At least those of them that were never my students. Quite a few were or still are.

Dennis Hooker
Manager of Technical Services
METROPLAN ORLANDO
WWW.METROPLANORLANDO.COM
Hey Bud

Well I'll give ya what you can get by with your natural Southern charm.
I'm a damn Yankee trying to represent developers projects. You know....... Condo's, factories, Churches, Banks, Car dealerships All the stuff abbuters just love to welcome into their neighborhoods. I remember one meeting for a chemical plant that that had 4 of the top ten carcinogens....was almost a workout making it to the door
So, being thought of as a bad guy already- It doesn't help me to walk in looking like one.

Cheers
Dan
 
Old 05-03-2006, 05:45 PM   #109
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
As it happens, I agree on some level. But I can't argue with results.

So...

It finally dawned on me that there is an element of psychology to ki. At the most basic level it's what I characterize as "tricking your own mind into doing the right thing". So many of these "tricks" are about being in the right physical and mental state. Sometimes it's harder to get yourself out of your own head and allow yourself to do it right.

So we use visualizations to make us forget to get in our own way.

Once I'd made this mental leap, a lot of ki exercises that were completely beyond me suddenly became easy. No deep mystery involved, it's just getting out of your own way. In this I think the whole "ki as religion" thing is actually counterproductive.

The "turning in" trick is far more than psychology. This much I'm sure of. It's really amazing how it changes everyone in the room. The person being aggressive will actually hear you differently.

I do believe that people can "feel" ki coming from another person and will react to it, often without realizing what they are reacting to or even that they are reacting. I don't see this as some mystic energy wafting off our bodies ala "The Force", but I do see it as a real phenomenon. I have all kinds of ideas on what's actually going on there, most of which are probably completely wrong (so I won't share them), but they work for me.

Okay, so maybe I don't agree completely. I think ki is a very complex interaction between the people involved. There's a lot more than physics there. I wouldn't call it hypnosis, but I've noticed simply changing the way I present my ki can change the way people around me behave. This means - to me - the psychology is part of the equation.

And, in an attempt to bring this back on topic:

I wonder if some of the reason why blatant challenges are rare anymore has something to do with this. I can often walk into a MA school and tell just who I'm dealing with without speaking a word with them. I'm definitely not a guru with all-seeing mystical powers, so if I can do this, I'd expect someone who's at a higher level than I am would be able to as well.

What, then, would be gained by a challenge that you know you would win (I think it's safe to assume that most people wouldn't make a challenge they know they would lose)? Especially if the students in the class are actually learning something worthwhile even though the instructor may not be as good as you (presumably) are.

The only time I could see this as worthwhile would be if I walked in, found an absolute charlatan who was obviously ripping off his students. Even then, this might not be the best way to deal with it.
Wow,
Psychology and thinking to affect the attitude of a room and make Ki Tricks work. Can you tell me things you would with your mind that is not normally done with a mind in order to "Make" Ki flow happen? And can you can explain just what you are getting out of the way of in you?
I would agree about walking in and knowing quickly. In fact, let me put my hands on someone and I'll know right then. Period.

In short if you don't know what you are doing to get out fo your way? Then what did you change with your mind? What then.is replicable?

How does that withstand someone who knows what he is doing everytime and actively trains to control himself and you?
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 05-03-2006, 06:06 PM   #110
mriehle
 
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Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Wow,
Psychology and thinking to affect the attitude of a room and make Ki Tricks work. Can you tell me things you would with your mind that is not normally done with a mind in order to "Make" Ki flow happen? And can you can explain just what you are getting out of the way of in you?
I would agree about walking in and knowing quickly. In fact, let me put my hands on someone and I'll know right then. Period.

In short if you don't know what you are doing to get out fo your way? Then what did you change with your mind? What then.is replicable?

How does that withstand someone who knows what he is doing everytime and actively trains to control himself and you?
Cheers
Dan
Sorry, I'm trying to parse a question out of this and all I can find is intentional baiting. Baiting which, BTW, is off topic...

...again.

Did you have something to ask, or something to say?

Or maybe you really are interested in what I mean by "getting out of your own way"?

An illustration from my own training, maybe. Unbendable arm is nearly effortless when you "just do it". But when we first start to attempt the exercise, most of us try to "do" something. Which pretty much guarantees we fail. But using one of the classic visualizations (water or light flowing, iron rod, whatever) we get our own ego to let go and let our bodies (and minds) do what they actually already know how to do. Eventually we must abandon the visualization and "just do it", but the visualization helps to get our ego out of the way. 'Sat help?

As far as attitude changing ki, if you haven't experienced this and haven't seen how a room full of people can be influenced by a subtle change, well...sorry. I have.

I probably shouldn't go here, but...

...did you get why I call these "Stupid Ki Tricks" at all?

Most of them, by all reasonable logic, shouldn't work. But I've seen them work over and over again. What's more, just going through the motions doesn't do it. The feeling is exactly the same as when you are doing any other ki test.

And I guess there's no hope of this ever getting back on topic.

 
Old 05-03-2006, 06:47 PM   #111
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
...did you get why I call these "Stupid Ki Tricks" at all?

Most of them, by all reasonable logic, shouldn't work.
Actually, the reason the physical ki-tricks work is highly logical, just like a magic trick, once it's explained to you and you're shown how to do it. Just "letting yourself go" won't do it, not if you're ever going to use these skills in a martial art. And if you really have the abilities to do these things, you know what you're doing and why you're doing it.

I remember being in a small discussion group with a bunch of teachers of the Asian persuasion (I was the only native westerner there). The question came up by one guy that I've never forgotten. He wanted to know why westerners have such strange ideas about ki and how things work.... and he came out with the statement, "All the good teachers are like technical instructors and most of the westerners seem to be like art students". There is a logic to fullblown ki and how it works.... someone that really knows it can explain it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-03-2006, 07:49 PM   #112
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
Sorry, I'm trying to parse a question out of this and all I can find is intentional baiting. Baiting which, BTW, is off topic...

...again.

Did you have something to ask, or something to say?

Or maybe you really are interested in what I mean by "getting out of your own way"?

An illustration from my own training, maybe. Unbendable arm is nearly effortless when you "just do it". But when we first start to attempt the exercise, most of us try to "do" something. Which pretty much guarantees we fail. But using one of the classic visualizations (water or light flowing, iron rod, whatever) we get our own ego to let go and let our bodies (and minds) do what they actually already know how to do. Eventually we must abandon the visualization and "just do it", but the visualization helps to get our ego out of the way. 'Sat help?

As far as attitude changing ki, if you haven't experienced this and haven't seen how a room full of people can be influenced by a subtle change, well...sorry. I have.

I probably shouldn't go here, but...

...did you get why I call these "Stupid Ki Tricks" at all?

Most of them, by all reasonable logic, shouldn't work. But I've seen them work over and over again. What's more, just going through the motions doesn't do it. The feeling is exactly the same as when you are doing any other ki test.

And I guess there's no hope of this ever getting back on topic.
Michael
You said you didn't "see" or had to parse out a question. There were several.

I asked:
1.Can you tell me things you would with your mind that is not normally done with a mind in order to "Make" Ki flow happen?

2. Can you can explain just what you are getting out of the way of in you?

snip...........

3. If you don't know what you are doing to get out of your way? Then what did you change with your mind? What then.is replicable? By the way, I think this is key.

4. How does that withstand someone who knows what he is doing everytime and actively trains to control himself and you?

I’m not baiting you as in a disingenuous game. I disagree with the tenants of what you’re saying and asking you if you could define it further.
I have listened for twenty five years as teachers said to “just let go and relax.” That was hogwash. The ones who made me work-fixed me and well ...made me work. Just relaxing will not work to affect much of anything, particularly physical responses under pressure. Real body skills and connection are arrived at by actual work..defined, explained, and taught- hard work. Not techniques that require someone to hit you in a way or you move in a way to lock them hooha. It’s not the pretzel-logic game, or any other martial dance.

But these tricks- though they may be- are expressing real and valid skills. Not…tricks of distraction and misdirection and other things relagated to fighting. Skills that are replicable under stress in a durable in a prolonged engagement. Hell catch me on a different day and I am showing Masons and landscape kids how to shovel with much less effort. Why? Internal skills.…I show THEM some things to do and wham…they can, to a degree do it.
So they are explainable and the guys do them...I don't say. "Hold the shovel BE the shovel.and get out of the way."

You mentioned the unbendable arm.
It’s a perfect example where guys can get limited results from Aikido. Then you can show them a definable, explicable way, to do the same trick with very specific things to think about and trust me. They never go back.
If you push or pull me to throw, I know what I do automatically on the inside. It is by many definitions excellent Ki. In fact two of your own called it that. I said “No it isn’t. Its my legs, hips, and spine.

So, since you stated some specifics and I cannot see that working… I asked how you can not do something you don’t know your doing ..to not do it…. by getting out of the way? I mean-you did say it.
But listen, I am disagreeing, even saying I think you’re wrong on this. But I am asking truthfully just what it is you are not doing to get out of your own way.



Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-03-2006 at 08:01 PM.
 
Old 05-04-2006, 07:39 AM   #113
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

I just read Rons review of training in Paris. He mentioned something which got my attention. That hitting would not be tolerated and safety is paramount (he was talking about weapons there). It brings up an old issue with me in regards to body skills and fight training. I wonder at what point safety- compromises real progress. Where does gradually increasing levels of danger-both real or percieved become a welcomed tool for growth.

We train to hit and get hit and absorb the pain. It is my belief that training this way not only toughens the body it toughens the spirit/mind. The control of intent and the ability to remain focused, maintain structure while taking punishment changes people. I have seen it happen. We do certain mind/ focus drills that get rather intense. I have watched experience MA men -who never really went at it- get so fustrated they stop, as if a re-set button gets pushed as their ability to remain "in the game" collapses.

How could someone believe or hope to persevere against agressive, staccato, broken-rythm attacks, unless one trains to do so? Truly.. it is all about personal levels and intensity that each of us chooses to deal with. Not many are going to choose an MMA type or BJJ type training. Thats fine. Many don't care too. Nothing is requiring that there be a standard across the many arts. But at what point does each person allow for the imaginary to meet the reality at a level or levels that continually challenges their complacency?

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-04-2006 at 07:41 AM.
 
Old 05-04-2006, 08:10 AM   #114
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
We train to hit and get hit and absorb the pain. It is my belief that training this way not only toughens the body it toughens the spirit/mind. The control of intent and the ability to remain focused, maintain structure while taking punishment changes people. I have seen it happen. We do certain mind/ focus drills that get rather intense.
Cheers
Dan
Dan, as a young man I trained in a form of Karate that required hitting and getting hit with power. Sometimes after class I may piss blood for a week. I am convinced that that is one of the reasons my kidneys are in such trouble now. Oh the things we did to our bodies when we were young and bulletproof. Once I had heart surgery after a full palm strike to the chest. I gave as good as I got and we too knew the tricks. We believed we were training for war. We were simply distorting our bodies. I knew a sensei once that said "if you did not receive an injury once or twice a year requiring medical attention you were not training hard enough". All can say today is evaluate why you train and then train accordingly. I am not a big fan of pain for pain's sake. We get enough of that in life.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 05-04-2006, 08:17 AM   #115
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Dan, as a young man I trained in a form of Karate that required hitting and getting hit with power. Sometimes after class I may piss blood for a week. I am convinced that that is one of the reasons my kidneys are in such trouble now. Oh the things we did to our bodies when we were young and bulletproof. Once I had heart surgery after a full palm strike to the chest. I gave as good as I got and we too knew the tricks. We believed we were training for war. We were simply distorting our bodies. I knew a sensei once that said "if you did not receive an injury once or twice a year requiring medical attention you were not training hard enough". All can say today is evaluate why you train and then train accordingly. I am not a big fan of pain for pain's sake. We get enough of that in life.
Ouch. That's what all the ki-breathing is for, for god's sake. It not only increases your strength, it "wraps" the body organs. Training with pain and blunt blows is considered extremely primitive.

There's a monograph by Donn Draeger in which he mentions he and Japanese martial teachers watching some of the visiting Chinese take enormous body punishment. Draeger asserted that the Japanese didn't know how to train that. Personally, I think some of the Japanese DID know how to train it; they just didn't show Draeger.

Regards,

Mike
 
Old 05-04-2006, 08:36 AM   #116
DH
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Yeah But I agree with that Dennis.
Its not what I am talking about. I am more in line with making my body ...healthily.... resistent to blows. Not "taking" punishment, preventing it by controling my body.
The breath is key to ki.
I have had guys wail on my stomach, chest, legs and arms for years now. I'm fine.I dance and move with the youngins.

I'm not into causing pain for pain sake either. I think its counter productive and smacks of abuse, worse to see young people played that way with no means for safe growth.

Cheers
Dan
 
Old 05-04-2006, 08:41 AM   #117
DH
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Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ouch. That's what all the ki-breathing is for, for god's sake. It not only increases your strength, it "wraps" the body organs. Training with pain and blunt blows is considered extremely primitive.

There's a monograph by Donn Draeger in which he mentions he and Japanese martial teachers watching some of the visiting Chinese take enormous body punishment. Draeger asserted that the Japanese didn't know how to train that. Personally, I think some of the Japanese DID know how to train it; they just didn't show Draeger.

Regards,

Mike
I'd be careful of discussing just what and who Draeger knew, Mike. Just a heads up. That is a very deep lake to wade into. He was converscent in CMA and with top players. I think it more than fair to say the Japanese didn't know it. While it's not an absolute, if very, very, few did- it makes the statement in a cultural reference pretty sound.

Cheers
Dan
 
Old 05-04-2006, 08:46 AM   #118
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ouch. That's what all the ki-breathing is for, for god's sake. It not only increases your strength, it "wraps" the body organs. Training with pain and blunt blows is considered extremely primitive.

Regards,

Mike
Mike I truly do not wish to appear rude but have you experiences this for yourself? I don;t know you and you may well possess these skills. Have you let a well trained karate man deliver a blow to see if you could take it and keep fighting? Or is this speculation developed in the Aikido dojo? Have you ever gone full out with a competent and skilled person from another martial art who don't really care about your concepts? Wrapping the internal organs in Ki is a mighty flowery concept but if you get hit by the right person the wrapping is likely to come undone. I have not trained in any of the "harder arts" in 30 years. Aikido took over and for good reason. Self preservation, I am over 60 now and I don't intend to get hit again.

In Japan a fellow was giving a public demo and thought he had the wrapping thing down cold. He ask an Aikido Shihan to strike him. The Shihan did and the fellow almost died. A lot of people still hate the Shihan for striking so hard. I believe we should strive for these lofty goals and I'm not sure I would recommend testing the theory for real unless you believe you will need those skills to survive.

I have seen Master Chan here in Orlando do things I believe undoable. So I know what can be done even if I can't do them. I believe he to be one of the uncommon ones.

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 05-04-2006 at 09:00 AM.

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Old 05-04-2006, 08:58 AM   #119
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Hi Dan,

Yes, I was mentioning that primarily in a weapons context, especially as to the incident I mentioned that I witnessed early on. I'd say striking someone full force with the jo by accident shows a lack of control, and a tendancy toward abuse if it happens repeatedly. Separate issue from what you mention I think.

And what you mention is a valid point. How do you train the skills you speak of...except by actually at some point taking the hits...taking the throws...and learning how to absorb (transmute?) that power? Hopefully I'll have more of a clue after we spend some time together. While the training in the review I wrote was excellent in terms of aikido...and expressing some facets of kokyu ryoku...I do indeed agree that there and in aikido in general the training you specifically mention is somewhat lacking. Or I'm just not getting all of the points behind the training (quite possible at my level).

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-04-2006 at 09:00 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-04-2006, 09:04 AM   #120
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dennis
But you don't haul off and just wack someone. You bring them through. Even in the course of a year my guys start to ignore my body strikes on them and they just keep coming at me. They have enough breath control and body alignment to ward it and absorb it. There is no short term or long term damage-well there are minor accidents but only a sit out and come back.
BTW I'm 50 and other than an occasional trip to the chiropractor I am fit and trim. No long term damage on me.

I don't know Mike. I have trained with men who know him and have trained with him and they say he is solid in what he knows but isn't fighter per se. I will offer that what he is saying here is sound. That said, I am a fighter and yes, I have been hit by all kinds of guys. But look, MIke Rob or me mentioning it is not bravado. Its testing, training, experimenting, testing, and improving. And the skills are old, old, and known. For measurable skills you use it through all levels gradually improving. Any good Boxer does body conditioning as well.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-04-2006 at 09:11 AM.
 
Old 05-04-2006, 09:12 AM   #121
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Mike I truly do not wish to appear rude but have you experiences this for yourself? I don;t know you and you may well possess these skills. Have you let a well trained karate man deliver a blow to see if you could take it and keep fighting? Or is this speculation developed in the Aikido dojo? Have you ever gone full out with a competent and skilled person from another martial art who don't really care about your concepts? Wrapping the internal organs in Ki is a mighty flowery concept but if you get hit by the right person the wrapping is likely to come undone. I have not trained in any of the "harder arts" in 30 years. Aikido took over and for good reason. Self preservation, I am over 60 now and I don't intend to get hit again.
Hi Dennis:

I can understand why you might ask that question, but let me just assure you that I have adequate experience to say I'm qualified to speak. I really have a personal aversion to posts that might appear to be bragging about my background or what I can do. That's for other people.

Let me repeat an anecdote I've told before on this forum. One of my teachers, after being asked a question at a dinner party, took one of the unused chopsticks, placed the pointy end against his throat (between the adam's apple and the hollow) and placed the blunt end (horizontally) against the brick wall that was behind his chair. So he only had a few inches he could move. He suddenly pulsed straight forward and the chopstick splintered into bamboo fibers. When someone asked him how he'd done it, he replied, "Some people would call it qi, but really it just shows that the human body can be conditioned more than most people realize".

I'm talking about a type of conditioning, Dennis. And you can do that sort of conditioning to the organs through breathing, etc., exercises. That's all I'm saying. To take blows without doing that sort of stuff is considered primitive.
Quote:
I have seen Master Chan here in Orlando do things I believe undoable. So I know what can be done even if I can't do them. I believe he to be one of the uncommon ones.
I don't know who "Master Chan" is. If you mean Chan Poi, though, he's just middle of the road at best, compared to what's out there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-04-2006, 09:15 AM   #122
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 381
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

To paraphrase one of my Shihans: "Strong Ki by itself is useless against really good technique."

Try breaking a real rock with only Ki and no real technique. You need some Ki development but you also need a lot of good technique. Otherwise, you will only break it with luck. We, like professional golfers and other pro athletes, practice to sustain consistency in our actions. If you break a rock with your strike once, you should be able to break a similar rock each and every time since you have the consistency. If you rely on Ki and luck in getting the right technique, you will probably be inconsistent and not be able to break the rock each and every time.

It is strange to me how people try and separate Ki and Ki practice from other things. You need Ki flow to do anything. In just learning good striking technique, you need to have good Ki. That is why good technique by itself will always win over someone just using strong Ki by itself. Strong Technique = (Body activity + Ki flow) * Practice for Consistency and Development versus Strong Ki Concept = (Ki flow) * Practice for Consistency and Development. Of course, that means Practice without Body activity or Ki flow (Kuchiwaza) comes up with a goose egg or dry fart (a whole lot of noise with little to show for it).

I'm full of strong coffee (building my Ki) and am shaking and blathering. I better sign off and get back to work before I sound even stupider.

Rock
 
Old 05-04-2006, 09:15 AM   #123
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Dennis
Any good Boxer does body conditioning as well.

Cheers
Dan

Sure enough Dan, and that what is "was" all about for us and we conditioned well.

Now days I don't let them hit me. They may think they are hitting me but the energy is going somewhere other than into my body and usually it drops them to the floor. I see that Mike also does not study Aikido. That was an assumption I wrongly made. I never intend to stand in one place and stop anyone when it is so much easer to simply move to right place and let them stop themselves.

Take care
Dennis

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
 
Old 05-04-2006, 09:16 AM   #124
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I don't know Mike. I have trained with men who know him and have trained with him and they say he is solid in what he knows but isn't fighter per se.
Dan, why don't you restrict your bullshit to the brags about yourself? People say all kinds of things about me from "he's not a fighter" to "he's so violent they should lock him up". You're just a gossip-monger who likes to talk too much.

Mike
 
Old 05-04-2006, 09:19 AM   #125
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

This thread belongs in Bullshido. com
 

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