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Old 05-01-2006, 02:47 PM   #76
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
If you want someone to put up or shut up, you go to them. Harden has given you the opportunity. It's up to you to take it, or not. If you choose not to, that's your problem, not his.
I don't want to beat a dead horse even dead-er, so I will make this brief.

Joshua-san, I fear you are mistaken, about who is being challenged. The original challenges, apparently, were made by Dan, in reference to Aikidoists in general, on the internet, over a period of years.

In post #88, Jim Sorrentino made an open invitation to Dan to back up his words, with action. Dan gave a counter-offer, and the rest, as they say, is history.

And as far as the whole "etiquette" thing is concerned: AFAIC, I made my point. No real need to pursue this tack of argument further, IMO.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 05-01-2006 at 02:49 PM.
 
Old 05-01-2006, 02:59 PM   #77
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
WOW. Just got back from a trip, and spent the morning catching up on email and reading this thread (well, most of it).

Know Jimmy Sorentino, like the man, think his offer was great, and wish Dan could accept. I'd be there with bells on.

Don't know Dan personally, seen his posts a lot, and guess what? A LOT of what he says does make since if you walk that path. And you know what? He almost NEVER invites folk to come to train with him. Now, he's made that invitation publicly...openly.

snip o< ........ I appreciate the offer you've made, and am willing to learn. And to do the homework as well.

I have met some of the folks on this thread, and they know me. I'm not interested in "fighting" anyone...too old and complacent. But I am interested in learning body skill to apply in my practice. That is what I do...I train. Come on...that is what most of us do. Few, if any, fight. So let's drop the challenge nature of the topic...and get it out of this thread. Let's see how many can get together to learn about the internal skills we hear so much about.

Why does this stuff have to be accrimonious? I can't even count the number of places I've been. Not once have I come away regretting the decision.

Best to all,
Ron
Gees Ron....blah blah blah eh?
Can you believe this stuff? Two or three making a big deal. I can't get some of the guys who train with me to go home and do solo work. "It hurts." Its too time consuming." "My wife thinks I look weird doing them."
That it Tillsdale!! I am dropping a challenge. I bet you that you don't follow through with a years solo training either. Ya can't lie-I'll know next time I see/ touch you.

Your right in that I don't invite. I could care less. But you? Ya miscreant. Even though I have turned you down in the past I can make an exception. But don't come all this way and not want to learn how to apply some of these things in a fighting format. My guys are hilarious and completely safe. We...as in you and I.. don't have to fight but we can do some drills for application of the solo work in a fighting form. Then give you drills to take home.

Lets forget this "lets see how many we can get" stuff you mentioned. I'm still not interested in numbers. You and maybe just a few guys is enough for my barn. Let the other guys satisfy their curiosity elsewhere. We'll train and learn. How about you agree to come up a couple times a year, if you like what you see and feel. Then you can go back, play teacher and be a big shot! While I keep getting better than you! I promise to listen while you complain about absentee students, rent, dues, and no time for you to train. Just kidding.........Chuck don't throw rocks at me.
Send me a P.M and well exchange numbers and info. Now I have to figure out how to fit it in.

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-01-2006 at 03:13 PM.
 
Old 05-01-2006, 03:12 PM   #78
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Hey Dan,

Your house, your rules. Always worked before! PM already sent. Give me good stuff and I'll do my best. Drills are fine, and a little rough house too. We all gotta go to work again, sometime, but there's gotta be room for fun too.

I won't be worrying about teaching...I'm not really good enough at anything to teach!

Best,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-01-2006, 03:13 PM   #79
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
That it Tillsdale!! I am dropping a challenge. I bet you that you don't follow through with a years solo training either. Ya can't lie-I'll know next time I see touch you.

cheers
Dan
It would be interesting to read of Ron's feedback, if he takes Dan up on his offer. I'd like to know what comes of such an exchange.

Someone pls drop me a PM or post it here, with feedback, OK?
 
Old 05-01-2006, 03:16 PM   #80
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Neil, the nature of the offer is such that you don't turn it down...it doesn't get made often or easily.

I'm pretty open about my experiences at different places...if the host is ok with it. If not, then you won't see me talking about it on the web. Pretty simple really. Like most things in life, don't over complicate it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-01-2006, 03:18 PM   #81
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Well I don't do knife or any striking before I have to do presentations myself. I look bad enough already-can't imagine standing up in front of a planning board with a black eye or bruised knuckles.

Chill out, and look forward to it. You know that wierd nervous feel? Forget it. You'll have a blast, and make friends.

Cheers
Dan
 
Old 05-01-2006, 03:20 PM   #82
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I'm pretty open about my experiences at different places...if the host is ok with it. If not, then you won't see me talking about it on the web.

Best,
Ron
Umm...of course. I'm not asking you to be disrespectful or give away MA secrets, or anything.

Merely curious. I've always appreciated your posts (even read a bit of your blog); and I'd have liked to hear your feedback.
 
Old 05-01-2006, 03:27 PM   #83
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

I've liked your stuff too. MA secrets? Sweat. Not a secret (at least not anymore!). 'Course, there's sweat that produces results, and then the other kind. With me...mostly the other kind. but I keep coming back anyway. Hope the blog is entertaining!

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-01-2006, 03:28 PM   #84
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
It would be interesting to read of Ron's feedback, if he takes Dan up on his offer. I'd like to know what comes of such an exchange.

Someone pls drop me a PM or post it here, with feedback, OK?
Not a chance.
I have a standard long non-disclosure form and liability waiver. I'll make Ron sign- in writing, with witnesses- that he can disclose any negatives he wishes to say of any kind. But other than me personally -not to talk about any positives in the training on the net in any details....Zip.
I am completely uninterested in the advertizing. And yes, before you spout off with more of your negative commentary and baiting. I am that confident.

It is my view that the internal skills are the best and last bastion of the arts. Further that they be given to select people and not cast to the winds. Moreover, the training to use them in fighting is rare. It is just not being done by many men.
I claim no expertise. But to the best I am able to control it -the skills that I do know and practice-you will never learn from me, nor anyone affilliated with me.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-01-2006 at 03:43 PM.
 
Old 05-01-2006, 05:09 PM   #85
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Joshua-san, I fear you are mistaken, about who is being challenged. The original challenges, apparently, were made by Dan, in reference to Aikidoists in general, on the internet, over a period of years.
Sorry, references to "Aikidoists in general" don't count.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
 
Old 05-01-2006, 07:28 PM   #86
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
Sorry, references to "Aikidoists in general" don't count.
With all due respect...we can agree, to disagree. A general call to challenge, is still a challenge.
 
Old 05-02-2006, 09:14 AM   #87
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

If Ron Does go up there. I'd be real interested in what criteria is used to define "success". The problem with conveying or not conveying these internal skills can be a source of debate.

On one hand I see Dan's issue that a litmous test of a few days is inadequate to transmit such training.

On the other hand, a good teacher and martial artist should be able to demonstrate ability and proficiency at the drop of a hat. That is, within the parameters of his teaching or methodology.

I suspect that if this is not adequately defined up front and clearly understood, you will have two individuals in disagreement once all is said and done.

Ron might say, "yea I learned a few things", but no big deal. Or this guy is a complete quack.

Dan might say, "well I can't teach this in a few days". or Ron was not receptive or not advanced enough to get it.

Both might be right, or both might be wrong. It is all based on perception.

I would think though that one that has carried himself as a "master" of a particular field would be able to demonstrate a fairly high degree of proficiency at the task at hand. It is one thing to understand a "few things" quite another to demonstrate a deep understanding a breadth of experience to adapt to all kinds of students.

My gut tells me it would be Dan's responsibility to "teach" or communicate to Ron. Failure to do so would not be Ron's problem, but Dan's.

Again, though we first need to establish the endstate or criteria. Also, more than one person would need to participate to keep it from being a "one sided" issue.

That said, not really sure what this is accomplishing. Hence the comments from Izumi and Clark.

It is entertaining as I stay in my hotel this week though!
 
Old 05-02-2006, 09:42 AM   #88
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
If Ron Does go up there. I'd be real interested in what criteria is used to define "success". The problem with conveying or not conveying these internal skills can be a source of debate.

On one hand I see Dan's issue that a litmous test of a few days is inadequate to transmit such training.

On the other hand, a good teacher and martial artist should be able to demonstrate ability and proficiency at the drop of a hat. That is, within the parameters of his teaching or methodology.

[snip]

Again, though we first need to establish the endstate or criteria. Also, more than one person would need to participate to keep it from being a "one sided" issue.
Just to throw in my 2 cents on the criteria I would look for in challenges related to these kinds of challenges (about someone claiming to have knowledge/skills about "internal" aspects).

Most of what Tohei shows are in the forces category of "ki power". The jo-trick, taking a push to the forearm, etc., are static demonstrations of forces in the mind-body area. Kevin's basic argument is that just because someone can do static tricks doesn't mean that they can use it in a fight to do anything. I tend to agree. I think that if you can teach someone to do a few static tricks, that's OK, because it at least shows that they're getting started. The next step (criterion) would be to be able to move with these kinds of forces in a rudimentary way. Where the split off comes, in my opinion, is being able to move with these kinds of forces all the time, but using the middle as the source of movement and not the shoulders. Almost invariably, that is the difference between someone with some "bits and pieces" and someone who is definately on the road to excellence.

And that doesn't even get us started on the development of the ki/fascial structure through breathing, etc., in the body.

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 05-02-2006, 09:57 AM   #89
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Hmm, well, for me at least, this is not an opportunity to go somewhere, come back here and report

"Yea, Dan has the goods"
or
"Yea, these are tough guys, but I didn't get the "internal" stuff"
or
"I went up and tossed these guys."

I don't approach my visits to various dojo that way. If I did, I probably wouldn't be welcome too many places. Start from there, and you set yourself up to find negative things. When I go places, I go to learn as much as I can about what they do. Not to pass judgment...to learn. That means acknowledging that I don't know what they do to begin with, and being open to putting aside what I do know about my own training. Shoshin. I can make some judgments about what I think I pick up afterward. But those are tempered by the fact that a visit or two doesn't show you the entire puzzle of what an instructor is trying to accomplish.

The internal aspects of training are another complication. But from what I have been able to pick up over the years, the people who are good at it have very specific physical things that you work on. I have outlined some of these things in the posts with Rob John and Mike Sigman. So I will look to see if I need to throw that stuff out, or if it works as a base and I can grow from there. I will be specifically looking for exercises I can take home to increase the conditioning of the pathways and the mental control of them. I will also be looking for any tips on relaxation I can get, being rather stiff myself.

The main thing here for me, is to get the adversarial nature of this discussion purged. I've tried to be very clear about this...this is not adversarial to me. No need for that crap.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-02-2006, 10:05 AM   #90
Budd
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

If you want someone to come play with an open mind, I'd put that Ron Tisdale fellow at or near the top of the list. He's a good egg and an ex-wrestler (two excellent character traits) and I like him very much!

(Now, if only he'd come visit and play at our dojo more . . .hint, hint)
 
Old 05-02-2006, 10:15 AM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Thanks Mike. You very succinctly summed up all my "issues" in the past week!

The question now is what would we see/experience from meeting with Dan?

1. A few static tricks.
2. being able to move in a rudimentary way.
3. Being able to demonstrate at full force, full spectrum dynamic.

Dan, where do you feel you fall in on this "scale".

Ron,

I agree and it appears your attitude and maturity is correct. I don't see this so much as a challenge but as an education process to expand our knowledge of how to improve. I for one, am not parochial when it comes to aikido and while I find it to be a wonderful methodolgy, I think there are other ways to train that are better.

You know i'd love to see a seminar like aiki-expo that brought together buys from different perspectives using aikido as the base common methodology. I mean we have good BJJ/MMA grapplers out there. Some CMA guys, and the like that could constructively help all of us figure out how to look at things differently. Never know what might come out of it!

I am not talking about how to do ikkyu on a guy that wants to clinch you either....not technique oriented, but principle oriented. i.e how to incorporate different methodologies into the base of aikido. I'd be more up for that than a "challenge".
 
Old 05-02-2006, 10:24 AM   #92
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

The equivilant to this in the MMA world is called a "throwdown". For those of you that don't know, throwdowns aren't challenge matches, but a chance to put your "stuff" on the line and see how it stacks up against others that don't necessarily share the same paradiqm or perspective as you.

It is done in a cooperative, egoless, way. The end result is a confirmation of your skills/principles or it don't work and you go back to the drawing board and re-adapt.

I like it as it keeps you from getting complacent and you must deal with the realities of others. I have found throwdowns to be a tremendous tool in helping me figure things out. It really helps make your martial art your own.

The one drawback to this however, is this: If you get too focused on doing things this way all the time, you may not do well at your base art...say aikido. You still need to listen to your Sensei and instructors and continue to do what they tell you to do for the most part as you may not have the skills or experience to totally grasp what is happening in the given circumstance you are presented with at the throwdown.

I think this is what Mike, Dan, and I are concerned with.

Throwdowns aren't really good for beginners, or those necessarily interested at being good technically good at aikido the way you do it in your organization.

It takes a certain mentality, and certain base skill level, and a maturity to be able to emotionally deal with the fact that you may walk away confused!

What do you guys think?
 
Old 05-02-2006, 10:48 AM   #93
M. McPherson
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
The main thing here for me, is to get the adversarial nature of this discussion purged. I've tried to be very clear about this...this is not adversarial to me. No need for that crap.

Best,
Ron

There you go, Ron, bringing yet another thread back to some semblance of civility, maturity, and restraint. The nerve...
Anyhow, have a great trip up to Massachusetts - it sounds like it will be a great learning experience.

Best regards,
Murray McPherson
 
Old 05-02-2006, 10:59 AM   #94
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
The question now is what would we see/experience from meeting with Dan?

1. A few static tricks.
2. being able to move in a rudimentary way.
3. Being able to demonstrate at full force, full spectrum dynamic.

Dan, where do you feel you fall in on this "scale".
Well, I would modify that:

Foot in the door for the first time:

1. A few static tricks.
2. being able to move in a rudimentary way.

Being on the road to real results:

3. Able to demonstrate from weak, gradually getting stronger, full-blown movement with ki/kokyu-power.
4.Being able to demonstrate at full force, full spectrum dynamic.
Quote:
You know i'd love to see a seminar like aiki-expo that brought together buys from different perspectives using aikido as the base common methodology. [snip]I am not talking about how to do ikkyu on a guy that wants to clinch you either....not technique oriented, but principle oriented. i.e how to incorporate different methodologies into the base of aikido. I'd be more up for that than a "challenge".
Here I'd agree that it would take more than a quick visit or workshop to really get started. It's like trying to teach someone to play the guitar at a 2-hour seminar at Aiki-Expo... an almost impossible task.

Mike
 
Old 05-02-2006, 11:04 AM   #95
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
The equivilant to this in the MMA world is called a "throwdown". For those of you that don't know, throwdowns aren't challenge matches, but a chance to put your "stuff" on the line and see how it stacks up against others that don't necessarily share the same paradiqm or perspective as you.
Well, that is even beyond what I am looking for. In a throwdown, rolling is the main course. Working on what you apply in that venue, what works, what doesn't, how to improve what you have and learn new things. In my mind, the exchange we are discussing is about specific methods of training very specific skills. I'm not looking to find out what I do that already works. I'm looking to learn new things, or better ways of doing things I perhaps already have some clue about. Different focus, maybe not by much, but different all the same. Mike has talked a lot about the "been there done that" crowd. In my mind, that attitude stops a lot of learning. I don't want to be flippant, but I've had that attitude, and done that scene. Time to do something else...and learn.

Best,
Ron (thanks for the compliments guys...Murray, miss you at the dojo, stop in some time! Bud, got the latest newsletter, but I haven't checked the schedule yet. We'll see if I can make it up sometime in the summer!)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-02-2006, 11:09 AM   #96
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Hi Mike,

I think that's why Dan wants to see some commitment. Without it, it's really a waste of his time. If I'm lucky, I'll have something of a base for him to work with. If he's lucky, I'll stick with the material and show some progress.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-02-2006, 11:15 AM   #97
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
The question now is what would we see/experience from meeting with Dan?

1. A few static tricks.
2. being able to move in a rudimentary way.
3. Being able to demonstrate at full force, full spectrum dynamic.

Dan, where do you feel you fall in on this "scale".
Hi Kevin. I think Dan has posted enough about where *he* thinks he falls on this scale. In my mind, if you want to know the truth of things like that, you pack an open mind and a bag, and do the work. This doesn't have to be hard...lots of folk did it in Paris with Ark (unfortunately, before I got there), people did it with Ueshiba, Ueshiba did it with Takeda, etc. etc. etc.

I'm going to sign off on this thread unless something specific comes up that need replying to...it's all been said.

B,
R

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-02-2006, 12:31 PM   #98
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

All good comments. If you guys care, I am feeling much better about things....so I have that going for me!

Feelings are important you know!

Ron, yeah I kinda agree about the throwdown. it is technical based and probably difficult on a principle oriented base to do much in a few hours. However, it is a good place to try out the pratical application of your theory/prinicple and it goes along way to breaking down the paradiqm and exposing your mind to other things.

Yeah...I am done with this worn out horse too!

Cheers!
 
Old 05-02-2006, 01:13 PM   #99
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Hi Michael, you wrote:
Quote:
The one time was actually personally amusing because I personally defused it with what I can only describe as a Stupid Ki Trick that still amazes me that it works. Even though I've done it three times and it's worked all three times, it just seems like it's too easy and shouldn't work.
I really enjoyed your post, and as a collector of 'stupid ki tricks', would you let me know what it was that you did? my curiosity just wouldn't let me not ask the question

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 05-02-2006, 01:21 PM   #100
Talon
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Hi Michael, you wrote:

I really enjoyed your post, and as a collector of 'stupid ki tricks', would you let me know what it was that you did? my curiosity just wouldn't let me not ask the question

regards,
Mark
I would like to know too.. Please post some details.
 

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