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Old 04-27-2006, 09:06 AM   #51
Stephen Kotev
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan,

Thank you for the invitation to visit. I would enjoy that very much.

I respect that it is your decision to accept or decline Jim Sorrentino's offer. I am in no way attempting to persuade you to change your mind. I am just interested in better understanding your perspective.

On this bulletin board you strongly supported accepting challenges as a part of authentic martial study. I don't see Jimmy's offer as different, he is offering sight unseen to the opportunity to share what you know with an audience that you choose to communicate with on a regular basis. Often Aikidoka are derided for not accepting challenges or even feeling it is necessary to test their skills outside of their comfort zone. As you know not everyone fits this category, hence there are some of us who are willing to accept challenges when presented.

Remember Mark Tennenhouse from Aikido Journal?

He made some impressive statements about his skills and abilities and the poor quality of Aikido training. He got the attention of several Aikidoka and raised the ire of several others. (I say the follow statements in the nicest possible way so don't get me wrong) Tennenhouse's arguments and accusations were not that different from some of your statements. He asked us how we would respond to double leg takedowns and other standard attacks from MMA. He made statements that were seen as challenging in the best case and insulting in the worst. He was savvy enough of a writer to get our attention but after a while folks grew tired of his electronic challenges and asked him to "put up or shut up." He accepted Stan's offer to present at the Aiki Expo. We know how that resulted.

Honestly I am unsure of your intentions are. Why tell us that we are wrong and lost only to say you have nothing to teach and no time to do so?

One of the greatest benefits about these bulletin boards is the opportunity to expand your knowledge and create new professional and personal relationships. As I said before, I had not heard of Ellis till I came to the Aikido Journal Site. I did not know who Chuck Clark was nor Dennis Hooker. I have now had the pleasure of either personally training with them or training at their Dojo. I have to agree with Jimmy "the internet changes everything." Ellis does seminars; both Chuck and Dennis have public dojo. Ellis has published books and DVD's; Chuck is working on a book (I am looking forward to its publication if you are reading this Chuck.)

If we want we can find them.

You on the other hand are quite a mystery. You are one of the only regular posters who have in depth knowledge and skill in Daito Ryu. That alone makes you very valuable to Aikidoka. On top of that is your koryu and MMA studies which add to the value of your comments.

The part that is personally frustrating to me is I don't understand the context of your comments. Some of us have been reading your stuff for years. Some of us have been luckly enough to meet you now others wish to as well. We know that to truly understand we must feel it for ourselves.

You must understand that your comments are read by thousands! People genuinely care about their Art and are committed to its success. You tell us that we need to look to Takeda for guidance. Takeda has long passed. Whom do we look to now?

What I enjoy most about Ellis is that he shares his passion with us. Most of us would openly admit we are hobbyists and not "warriors" or professional martial artists. We have jobs, families, obligations; we either don't have the time or choose not to completely immerse ourselves in our Art. Ellis is willing to share with us the results of his studies that we would never even attempt to begin. We can't leave our jobs and go to Japan for over a decade. We may want to but we can't. But Ellis gives us a portal to that world and points us in the right direction. I feel that is a valuable and honorable service.

I think you may have the same intention in your posts but I can't tell for sure. If it is not; what is your intention?

All the Best,
Stephen
 
Old 04-27-2006, 11:56 AM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan wrote:

Quote:
I have a guy who is going through the prequalifying rotine for UFC who is sarting to train now, he doesn't have time to do everything he should do, so he pulling out things he needs for now. He wants to train in week long block in the future. As with Jim, I said "No thanks." He's all muscle, it's going to take years to break that down re-wire it. I don't have the time for that unless it is on my schedule. I told him he has to decide.
Who are you working with on the prequalifying for UFC?

Also when you say "Jim" are you referring to "Jimmy" Sorentino? If so, I have worked with Jimmy and I disagree with the "all muscle". How do you draw that conclusion if you have never worked with him?

I work or have worked with four "UFC" level/NHB fighters that have worked with me on anything but internal. They certainly understand the dynamics of correct body posture, alignment, etc...really the same stuff we work on in aikido. The don't really seem to be concerned with the stuff you are. Maybe they are missing out, I don't know. I guess we will see. I also don't mind naming them. Steve Van Fleet, incidently is a tai chi guy and flows wonderfully, however he puts a distinction on tai chi training and MMA training. Rudolfo Amaro, my current BJJ/Vale Tudo instructor out of Milan Italy again, we work on MMA stuff. Romero "Jacare" Calvacanti, 6th Dan from Rolls Gracie. Again, we work very traditional stuff from BJJ and Vale Tudo. His student, Roberto Traven also a 3rd Dan BJJ who fought in UFC. Again, same stuff. I will see Jacare and Roberto next week when I train with them in Atlanta.

I am curious to who you are training for the UFC and it will be interesting to see how well they do! Do you think that what they learn from you will prepare them or give them an edge. How will we know?

Dan, I don't know you or your training...but you seem to be making assumptions about "Jim" without foundation.,

And you also refer to a fighter you are training without giving a name. It is getting confusing to me trying to understand where you are coming from.
 
Old 04-27-2006, 12:11 PM   #53
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Also when you say "Jim" are you referring to "Jimmy" Sorentino? If so, I have worked with Jimmy and I disagree with the "all muscle". How do you draw that conclusion if you have never worked with him?
Kevin, I don't believe he was making the "all muscle" comment about Jim. I believe Dan was referring to the other guy's particular training request, by saying "No thanks," as he did to Jim's invitation.
 
Old 04-27-2006, 12:48 PM   #54
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Oh okay, I guess I made an assumption.

Dan, I just re-read your post. I didn't get it, the guy "Jim" you refer to, you said, that it was him you said "no thanks to". This is the guy that is training to be in UFC? If so, I can understand why you'd say that if you say that. Looks like I misunderstood your post. Sorry.
 
Old 04-27-2006, 07:57 PM   #55
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Oh okay, I guess I made an assumption.

Dan, I just re-read your post. I didn't get it, the guy "Jim" you refer to, you said, that it was him you said "no thanks to". This is the guy that is training to be in UFC? If so, I can understand why you'd say that if you say that. Looks like I misunderstood your post. Sorry.
No Problem. But I am not training him. I tooled him becuase he asked me too. I'll ask him if he minds me mentioning his name. I don't have the requirements clear- he is doing something in Rhode Island for a pre-qualifier or some such thing. I told him I would let him train -only- if he committed to do it, and I don't want him using my name or bringing a bunch of guys.
Glad to hear you're cross training.
Have you used pure recognizable, aikido technique -start to finish-to defeat the MMA or BJJ guys?


As for internal
I don't think you're going to find it in these guys. There are very few that experimenting with it.
Practicing internal skills is one thing
Learning to fight with real skill another
Training to fight with internal skills is something different.
Everything from where you would sit in a gaurd, where your hips and head would be in relation to your hands. How to wash a guys body lines with ground to keep from riding him and offering feedback for a reversal. Its a real chess game.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-27-2006 at 08:05 PM.
 
Old 04-28-2006, 07:09 AM   #56
Stephen Kotev
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Are you ducking my questions Dan?

Regards,
Stephen
 
Old 04-28-2006, 09:01 AM   #57
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan,

From post # 148:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As for a mindset.
Draeger shared, but did not teach per se. He died quietly. Buried in a quiet fashion. No Fuss. He spent his life learning.
Not that I am able in any way to compare my life-and I am not. But that is more to what I aspire to.
To paraphase Senator Lloyd Bentsen, I did not know Donn Draeger. I never met Donn Draeger. I just read some of his books. And Dan, even in your aspirations, you are no Donn Draeger.

It is amusing to speculate about what Mr. Draeger might have done in this situation. WWDDD, as it were. Although he did not have the benefit of the internet, Mr. Draeger was a widely-published and respected author and practitioner. More important, he traveled extensively in order to pursue his research. He was not a frog in a well. If asked, I bet he would have put up.

Stephen, it looks like you should not expect any answers from Dan --- at least not in an open forum. He never did state why he stopped studying aikido, or even whose student he was. If we read carefully, we know (from his over 850 posts on e-budo and his over 80 posts here) that he currently studies Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu under Phil Relnick-sensei. At some point, he studied Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu under Roy Goldberg-sensei of the Kodokai. Dan is also a swordsmith. Additionally, he spends a lot of time doing computer-assisted drafting. More information than that, I don't think we are likely to get without Dan's cooperation --- and he has made it clear that he is not interested in an open discussion, any more than he is interested in demonstrating and teaching under conditions that are not completely under his control.

Kevin, thanks again for your support! Please do keep pressing Dan on specifics (like who he is training for the UFC). Dan seems to want to impress you (perhaps because of your military, BJJ, and MMA experience). At least he answers your questions directly and promptly.

Dan, the offer is still open for you to put up. I would never tell you (or anyone in this forum) to shut up. That would be rude. But I don't know why I, or any other user of this forum, should pay attention to what you have to say.

Sincerely,

Jim
 
Old 04-28-2006, 10:41 AM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan,

I do use technics that would purely be identifiable to an aikidoka watching as aikido. Kotegaeshi is the most popular, when the rules I am fighting under allow for wrist locks. (submission rules allow sometimes, not BJJ). Just the other day a wrapped a guys hand up in nikkyo when he extended his arm and grabbed my gi. Used my best sawariwaza posture to finish him off. It is rare though and it usually occurs on wrestlers and new guys that do not understand to keep their hands and arms close in and not cross their center line.

Dan wrote:
Quote:
Training to fight with internal skills is something different.
Everything from where you would sit in a gaurd, where your hips and head would be in relation to your hands. How to wash a guys body lines with ground to keep from riding him and offering feedback for a reversal.
Can you explain further Please? I guess I really don't understand the concept of "internal skills". Proper and efficient use of your body and universal principles of dynamic movement dictate that those persons with the better technique will do better as a fighter all other aspects of physics eliminated or equal (size, speed).

An example is kokyu. We practices it in kokyu tanden ho, I do kokyu all the time in the cllinch, guard etc. Also when you are doing a triangle choke in order to get it on right, you have to move off the center line redirecting your opponents weight off your center which essentially is an irimi, the posting of you foot on the hip and moving of your hips with leg around the head is tenkan. Same exact principles that I have learned in aikido are "blending, harmonizing, KI, redirecting energy...all that good stuff.

Anyone I have ever sparred or fought in grappling that is proficient at greco-roman, blue belt or higher in BJJ, or what not...all too me seem to grasp the concepts that I learned in aikido. The difference is to them it is instinctive and intuitive. Instrinsic knowledge...not extrinsic. they don't focus externally on the internal stuff they intuitively do!

If I had to simpilfiy things to an allegory..i'd say that aikidoka and those that identify with the concept I don't understand: "Internal" are somewhat "principle/theory" like in a liberal arts undergrad program. (University of VA) They practice to understand the principles and foundations. Many BJJ and SU type students would be considered in "technical college" (VA Tech). They focus more on applied theory or technical skills.

In the end, they both end up in the same place. The tech school grad is more easily employed out of the gate because he has relevant/immediate skills. The university student builds a foundation that leads to further knowledge and applied skills.

Some go on to grad school get PhDs and do great things within the institutional environment. THey can tell you how to make a million dollars by quoting economic theory...but they have never actually done it themselves, nor probably could if you asked them too!

Both ends of the stick (arts like aikido and BJJ) are really the same. So, that is why I am having a hard time with the concept of "internal" it seems to convey something and you directly say many are lacking it...but what are they lacking?

Are they unhappy people? Are they not "complete" and what do you define as "complete" if so?

How does sitting in the guard from an "internal" perspective differ from how some one sits in the guard, from what....i guess the opposite of internal would be external...so yes, ..how does it differ from sitting in the guard externally?

To me the newbs I train that don't understand proper movement in the guard just sit there and get passed. Those that understand it more such as myself, off balance, irimi, do the stuff you do in push hands and all that...however to me it is just doing the technic "more correctly" than the guy who does not do it properly and who does not have "good technique". It is that simple to me!

Is there something missing? If I do not identify with this concept of "internal" what am I "missing"?

I am trying to understand this concept for my own personal growth. Thanks for you time and good discussion.
 
Old 04-28-2006, 12:38 PM   #59
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:

Dan, the offer is still open for you to put up. I would never tell you (or anyone in this forum) to shut up. That would be rude. But I don't know why I, or any other user of this forum, should pay attention to what you have to say.

Sincerely,

Jim
Yes, I second that sentiment. "Walking the walk" is not just a glib challenge...it concretely shows that you are comfortable backing up your words in any setting.

Dan apparently seems quite comfortable spending hours online criticizing Aikidoka on public fora: it seems strange and convenient that he somehow "lacks the time" to spend a few days making good on his claims.

As far as his counter-offer to demonstrate on HIS turf: well, that's a nice first step, but that's all it is, in the end. Dan cannot/will not demonstrate his claims in a Aikido dojo: and that says it all.

Underneath the etiquette-issue is the issue of safety. I'd feel a lot more confident and secure coming to Jim's dojo, than I would going off to someone with whom I have no experience or understanding of their MA. If the tables were reversed...if, say, Jim, made some claim about the inferiority of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu with respect to Aikido: I would happily accompany Jim to Dan's dojo, to prove his words. It would seem disrespectful for Jim to insist that he "has no time," or "it's not worth it to only teach a weekend seminar."

Etiquette and respect are more than simple gestures to demonstrate your good intentions. Etiquette can also mean the difference btw a safe, fun, learning experience; and an injury arising out of a serious misunderstanding.

So, yes, Dan has every right to express his feelings online, about the inadequacy of Aikido. But in the end, barring an actual demonstration...I agree: they're just words.
 
Old 04-28-2006, 05:43 PM   #60
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Neil,

There is nothing wrong with having opinions or criticisms about aikido or aikidoka. Frankly I really share many of the same criticisms and opinions that Dan shares. Our good buddy Michael Neal, you, I and others have had many discussions over the past few years on these topics!

For example, I think aikido very prone to having people we affectionately refer to as "aikibunnies" those that are not "real martial artist", ones that simply want to attend more classes than I, get in the "in click", socialize, and feel like they are somehow "special", go to all the seminars, yet somehow we look at them and just know that they don't "get it".

You know, I bet all sensei and shihan out there, also are concerned with this.

I also think aikido is inadequate as a methodology to prepare myself for the things that are important to me. i.e "real fights", or MMA.

Have I really said anything that anyone could have issue with? Also, you probably have most people out there going...okay, yeah so what?

That is not what Jim is getting at I believe.

What is at issue is what is added to those types of things. These two examples are commonly used to stir up emotion and negative feelings in people. They make a spring board.

What is added to them is rhetoric along the lines of this: "Aikido is inadequate for teaching the what it was designed to teach", O'Sensei got it, but darn...no one else does in the the "west", that is, except for guys like me, that have uncovered the secrets through Chinese martial arts. inferences are skillfully cleverly made over the course of years, threads, and boards . "I am an expert and understand the secrets of the what aikido was designed to teach." implications are made, maybe NOT in the same thread, but they are there that "most" of your teachers simply cannot do these things that I can do, and they really don't "get it".

This is a huge difference from criticizing a few conditions or situations that come with the territory in aikido, such as "we have students that simply "don't get it". Really what is being said is categorically "no one gets it, but I do, and I get it sooo well, that you are probably wasting your time doing things that your teacher is teaching incorrectly and doesn't understand".

It may be the case. Who knows. But, when you say or imply those things, you are putting yourself on the line for some huge expectations from people.

I am not necessarily saying that this is what Dan has said, frankly I have not read through e-budo, or any of the other post. I am simply stating what I percieve is the issue.
 
Old 04-28-2006, 05:49 PM   #61
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Jim

Enough already. I told you I am uninterested in teaching a seminar. I offered to have you come if you are interested in training-now you are just going off into the bad place. I am not “hiding” I am right here. I would welcome you. You want so desperately to learn the jo trick? Or to prove me wrong in a fighting theme or to really-on the inside- hope that you can so you don't have to listen to it anymore? If its that bad stop reading.
So, I make comments about Aikido you don’t like, get over it or get up here. Your beginning to look like the guy with issues. You are no longer even hinting at friendship-you're angry..
So, come up, I'll let you push and shove on a Jo till you get tired. Then teach you how to to do it. You can go home and show whomever you like.
Then we can do what I think you are really interested in, in an up-close and personal hands on. I'll demonstrate on you for a short time, then a few men, if I feel like it. I've not dissapointed to date-that I'm aware of. But you are rapidily making me re-think dinner.

Oh by the way. On the whole MMA are learned quicker and are more readily usable for fighting then Aikido. So is Judo. And..Aikido would do lot better for itself if it went back and re-learned and re-introduced the internal aspects.
There, I said it again.
Go take some blood pressure pills.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-28-2006 at 05:53 PM.
 
Old 04-28-2006, 06:08 PM   #62
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Kevin
I read your post and actually I have had these conversations IN..Aikido Dojo with teachers who moan about the same stuff. One who is reading here.
If it is indeed other issues about Aikido:
On the whole-not teaching what Ueshiba did or meant
Or what was lost
Some of the abuses of teachers who don't get it and wreck people. Then you had best include Stan Pranin who recorded most of it, a host of others who said it
Ueshibas own complaints to the same refrain.He did say "this is not my Aikido."
Add a bunch of Aikido Shihan and others in the art
Kondo, Ellis- a personal friend of mine..., Mike S.( whom I don't know), but who makes the comment about what is missing "In the west" in many places -even just today.......the list is long.

I can stand on my own legs, but it is rather funny having dinner with an aikido friend and hearing him bitch- then reading this great umbridge to what is readily agreed upon by most rational experienced guys who love and cross train and still do Aikido.

Cheers anyway
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-28-2006 at 06:17 PM.
 
Old 04-28-2006, 06:10 PM   #63
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan,

I feel like i am beating a dead horse. Hopefully I am not costing you your dinner! I could really careless about the whole challenge thing.

Could you explain in very, very simple terms how/what in your opinion is missing in AIkido as for as the internal aspects? Also how might one proceed to re-learn/introduce these aspects back into the art?

If the internal aspects are missing, what is the fallout because of it? Does it make ineffective in some way? What criteria are you basing it on? all that good stuff.

What is alot better?

You have explained the JO test and what that test in another thread, bu that type of thing in and of itself would not be sufficient criteria I think to say that aikido is deficient and would do a lot better for itself.

You have opinions and conclusions about what it is missing. I would love you to clarify them here if you would!

Thanks in advance!
 
Old 04-28-2006, 06:11 PM   #64
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

oh...can we move this to another thread....it has migrated severly!
 
Old 04-28-2006, 06:23 PM   #65
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

How about the jo thread?

Dan
 
Old 04-28-2006, 10:09 PM   #66
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Neil,

There is nothing wrong with having opinions or criticisms about aikido or aikidoka. Frankly I really share many of the same criticisms and opinions that Dan shares. Our good buddy Michael Neal, you, I and others have had many discussions over the past few years on these topics!
The point is, Dan has been making his criticisms known over a long period of time, repeatedly, and often. When someone finally calls him on this and asks him to back up his words in front of a group of Aikidoka in an Aikido dojo: he balks. His excuses? Too busy; wife wouldn't approve; etc.

In essence, these all sound like excuses. He wants to critique Aikido, fine...be my guest. But, its his excuses for not attending the seminar with which I take umbrage, not his problems with Aikido.

Quote:
You know, I bet all sensei and shihan out there, also are concerned with this.
And you'd lose that bet, in a New York minute. Shihan's, like most people, are concerned with a lot of different things..."aikido-bunnies," I imagine, rank very low on the "Concerned" list.

Quote:
I also think aikido is inadequate as a methodology to prepare myself for the things that are important to me. i.e "real fights", or MMA.
Fine. But if I were to ask you to back up your contentions with action at my dojo: you might properly surmise that an answer like "I'm too busy;" "I don't like to travel;" or even "come to MY dojo, and THEN I'll show you;" would be receieved with a measure of dubiousness, as to your claims.

Quote:
This is a huge difference from criticizing a few conditions or situations that come with the territory in aikido, such as "we have students that simply "don't get it". Really what is being said is categorically "no one gets it, but I do, and I get it sooo well, that you are probably wasting your time doing things that your teacher is teaching incorrectly and doesn't understand".
True, at least in part.

Quote:
It may be the case. Who knows. But, when you say or imply those things, you are putting yourself on the line for some huge expectations from people.
Yes...such as, adhering to basic dojo etiquette. You make a claim: you might be called on, to prove it. And, "I don't feel like coming to your dojo" proves nothing, except your reticence to make good on your words. Please.

And apparently, the "jo trick" only seems to work in Dan's dojo. Why wouldn't he jump to make good on his word and settle the whole thing, when all he has to do is make a pleasant, all-expense-paid trip to Virginia?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 04-28-2006 at 10:14 PM.
 
Old 04-28-2006, 11:32 PM   #67
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
The point is, Dan has been making his criticisms known over a long period of time, repeatedly, and often. When someone finally calls him on this and asks him to back up his words in front of a group of Aikidoka in an Aikido dojo: he balks. His excuses? Too busy; wife wouldn't approve; etc.

In essence, these all sound like excuses. He wants to critique Aikido, fine...be my guest. But, its his excuses for not attending the seminar with which I take umbrage, not his problems with Aikido.

And apparently, the "jo trick" only seems to work in Dan's dojo. Why wouldn't he jump to make good on his word and settle the whole thing, when all he has to do is make a pleasant, all-expense-paid trip to Virginia?
Neil
Who are you that I would bother to cross the street to prove a single thing too? So, a few disgruntled people here got their feelings hurt. Hopefully most are intrigued enough to seek the instruction where they may.
For you- anytime you wish to visit let me know. No need to be friendly-I won't be. The fact that you or anyone else needs to travel this far to experience such a simple thing as the jo trick- speaks volumes of both the state of "Aikido in the west"- as Mike puts it, and your own personal skill level, not to mention the many other things that are above it.
In one fell swoop you reveal the level of that you wish to defend. And of what I have been saying all along-
That you need teachers in the art to learn these skills.
For -your- impertinence..........may these skills ever allude you.

Dan
P.S. Almost single handedly you afirm why I would not waste my time

Last edited by DH : 04-28-2006 at 11:39 PM.
 
Old 04-29-2006, 12:37 AM   #68
Neil Mick
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Freaky! Re to Dan goin ballistic

Oho, the mighty Harden from on High finally deigns to respond to my posts (after about 3 being directly addressed, to him)...? Odd that you finally respond to a post not even addressed to you. But, I am sure that Dan Sensei has much to teach we Aikido-morons about technique, and respect, right?

Let's see...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Neil
Who are you that I would bother to cross the street to prove a single thing too?
If you were the guy yelling silly claims about Aikidoists: yeah, I'd expect you to cross the street to prove your point. Otherwise, you're just another source of noise, in the Big City.

Quote:
So, a few disgruntled people here got their feelings hurt. Hopefully mq ost are intrigued enough to seek the instruction where they may.
Etiquette. It's not just a good idea. IT'S THE LAW!

But, seriously, Dan--you're right, I am no one. I am just a stupid MA who cannot seem to get even the simplest of O Sensei's "tricks." You, OTOH, seem to know it all. You have said so, and so it must be. Now, why shouldn't silly ole' me just drop everything, ignore the plethora of seminars offered by Aikido Sensei's in my area (like the one occurring at my dojo in 2 weeks, taught by 3 Rokudan's), and just rush over to see the AMAZING DAN HARDEN DO HIS JO-TRICK! (oh, and listen to him spend long hours disparaging other MA's in person, no doubt,,,oh joy).

You see, Dan: aside from your pronouncements and a few good words by people whose reputations I've encountered (but never met)...I know jack about you. I don't even know the first thing about the MA you practice.

But had you accepted Jim's offer: well...that would have told me much, about you.

Your refusal told me almost as much...but enough to know that, no thanks...I think I'll pass on your less than generously worded invitation.

Quote:
For you- anytime you wish to visit let me know. No need to be friendly-I won't be.
Let's see...hmm,,,an invitation to buy planefare to MA to visit some yahoo who makes vague claims about his "skill," and now makes somewhat less-than-vague personal threats, online?

Noo...(*looks in mirror*)...I don't THINK I look like a macho-idiot, ruled by his testosterone...but I suppose that looks can be deceiving...

Quote:
The fact that you or anyone else needs to travel this far to experience such a simple thing as the jo trick- speaks volumes of both the state of "Aikido in the west"- as Mike puts it, and your own personal skill level, not to mention the many other things that are above it.
Yet another psychic MA who can not only out-do O Sensei: BUT, he seems to be able to know my "personal skill level," WITHOUT ever having MET ME!!!! WOW!

Quote:
In one fell swoop you reveal the level of that you wish to defend.
yadda yadda yadda.

Quote:
And of what I have been saying all along-
That you need teachers in the art to learn these skills.
Oh, you have spoken volumes to me, about the importance of etiquette, Sensei. I thank you most sincerely for the lesson.

Quote:
For -your- impertinence..........may these skills ever allude you.

Dan
I wish you all the best in life, hope, and luck.

Quote:
P.S. Almost single handedly you afirm why I would not waste my time
Yes, Sensei: I am sure. So many worthless Martial Artists out there...what's a demigod to do??

But in all your vaunted wisdom: you missed an important detail:

Quote:
In one fell swoop you reveal the level of that you wish to defend.
In a word or two, Dan: you. just. don't. get. it. You don't get what it is I am "defending." In post after post, I was stressing that you not taking Jim up on his offer, is outside the basic elements of etiquette.

I know squat about you, and now that you cannot even seem to respond to the simplest tenets of a martial challenge: now why should I trust that you'd keep it friendly? Or, failing friendly: how about fair? Triple-team while the visiting Aikidoist has his back turned, anyone? Perhaps a quick history-lesson about what it means to be a REAL American, in the parking lot (and yes, Dan: I remember our brief, but less-than-sanguine exchanges on AJ).

Or even funnier, I get to your dojo: and you turn out to be a pimply 14-yr-old, pretending to be someone else?

I dunno, because I know NOTHING about you.

Simply put, Sensei: I was "defending" etiquette, NOT Aikido. A pity you fail to understand the point.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 04-29-2006 at 12:49 AM.
 
Old 04-29-2006, 01:10 AM   #69
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

P.S. I couldn't care less, about learning the "jo-trick." What I would have liked to learn was the grace and skill of a MA who has something to teach Aikidoists, about Aikido.

I suppose I shall have to wait, on that one...
 
Old 04-29-2006, 02:11 AM   #70
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

There are lots of things I can profess to know and feel I can adequately demonstrate, AND I also would say to an invitation to show them....Sorry I don't have time, or don't feel like it. That is his perogative. I simply think it is too bad that he won't come down.
 
Old 04-29-2006, 02:40 AM   #71
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
That is his perogative.
Undoubtedly.
 
Old 05-01-2006, 09:58 AM   #72
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

WOW. Just got back from a trip, and spent the morning catching up on email and reading this thread (well, most of it).

Know Jimmy Sorentino, like the man, think his offer was great, and wish Dan could accept. I'd be there with bells on.

Don't know Dan personally, seen his posts a lot, and guess what? A LOT of what he says does make since if you walk that path. And you know what? He almost NEVER invites folk to come to train with him. Now, he's made that invitation publicly...openly.

It would be great if he could come to Jimmy's dojo. Don't look like it will happen. So, Dan...what do I need to do to get in on this? I'll come to your place, I just need to arrange some time off and travel. If I can bring a sleeping bag and bunk in the dojo, rather than get a hotel, that would be fine. If others can come, and they want to share hotel, that would be fine too. I appreciate the offer you've made, and am willing to learn. And to do the homework as well.

I have met some of the folks on this thread, and they know me. I'm not interested in "fighting" anyone...too old and complacent. But I am interested in learning body skill to apply in my practice. That is what I do...I train. Come on...that is what most of us do. Few, if any, fight. So let's drop the challenge nature of the topic...and get it out of this thread. Let's see how many can get together to learn about the internal skills we hear so much about.

I called an Iwama dojo while I was in Paris. I asked through my girlfriend if I could come and train. The instructor was welcoming, gracious, made me feel like a friend. I had a great time, learned a lot, and everyone went away happy. Why does this stuff have to be accrimonious? I can't even count the number of places I've been. Not once have I come away regretting the decision.

Best to all,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-01-2006, 11:26 AM   #73
MM
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

It's taken a little while and some diligent reading, but I'm gaining some perspective.

Let me put it this way. My world is small when you start talking about good budo and who's doing it. And I don't know a lot of the senior people all that well, but they tend to congregate together.

As an example, I've been part of the Jiyushinkai (and hope to be back soon) but Chuck Clark probably doesn't remember me. I've been to a couple of his seminars long ago. Among some of the great things I learned was that the Jiyushinkai is good budo and they are associated with people doing good budo.

So, if I see someone I've never met and don't know about, I can get somewhat of a perspective on their training by how it relates to those I have trained with.

In this regard, I have never met Dennis Hooker or Dan Harden. I've only met Jim Sorrentino once (briefly) at the Ellis Amdur seminar.

However, when I see something like post #116 by Chuck Clark, I can put that in perspective and say that Jim Sorrentino is probably doing good budo. The Amdur seminar just gave more weight to that hypothesis. If I ever found myself in their geographical area, I would know to look them up for training. The same working theory of mine goes for Dennis Hooker. I'd be lucky to train with him.

Then, I read post #135. Anyone who has an open invitation to come back to Chuck Clark's dojo has to be someone doing good things. Although Dan was already on my list of people to meet and/or train with, this thread just added more weight and reinforced what was there. I just wish I had the money to get up there for a week or two.

This thread has been interesting. I look back at posts #94 & 96 and wonder if those two really aren't just having a good old chuckle. I mean, they know the participants and probably know that if Jim and Dan got together, it'd most likely end up with them (Jim & Dan) bringing this good ole budo family closer together through shugyo.

Well, to wind this long post up, Clark and Hooker sensei, it's always a pleasure reading your posts. With some hard work, some luck, and a lot of perserverance, I'm hoping to attend your seminars/training events. And I'll definitely keep my eyes and ears open for another joint seminar of yours.

Dan, I hope to one day get a chance to train with you. Jim, I hope I can make more of your seminars. The Amdur one was great!

Mark
 
Old 05-01-2006, 11:35 AM   #74
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Mark and Ron,

Thanks for the compliments! Please check the Aikido of Northern VA dojo website (www.aikido-nova.org) for future seminar announcements.

See you on the mat!

Jim
 
Old 05-01-2006, 12:23 PM   #75
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Neil, I can appreciate your frustration with Dan. And if you want to make a big deal about him not accepting Jim Sorrentino's offer, because you don't believe his reasons, that's cool. But could you drop the whole etiquette thing? It just doesn't hold water. Etiquette has always been that if you want to challenge a guy, if you want a guy to prove something, then you go to him.

General Makoto Miura, Russo-Japanese war hero and one-time student of Sokaku Takeda, thought that Ueshiba was an ungrateful student puffing up his own claims and abilities. He challenged Ueshiba. He went to the Kobukan.

When Jigoro Kano, one of the most respected men in martial arts and education, heard of Morihei Ueshiba's aikijutsu, he went to the Mejiro dojo for a demonstration. And when he was satisfied with what he saw, and wanted some of his own students to learn from Ueshiba, he sent them to the Kobukan.

That is the etiquette. If you want someone to put up or shut up, you go to them. Harden has given you the opportunity. It's up to you to take it, or not. If you choose not to, that's your problem, not his.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
 

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