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Old 04-25-2006, 04:32 PM   #26
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
[i]"For a simple test for comparisons...Ground rules: No fighting techniques, no feints, no Waza of any kind.

Can you do this?
Stand in a room and not use any waza, not use your hands, or any offensive techniques and then.....
1. Have a 220 pound man push your chest with one hand in an attempt to push you over.
2. Then two hands as hard as he can
3. Then have him pile drive into you
4. Then casually.. pull you and push you around while you stand there without moving your feet Over time increasinf the severity.
Then
5. Have him push you slowly and -without you moving- you breathe and he starts to collapse downward
6. Do the above with a stick in your hands while he pushes you with the stick and with you not moving much at all.
7. Place your hands on his chest and not move you shoulders or body in any discernable way and send them 3-6' with your hands.

If you can do that.... . Then I really don't care what you "call" it, you're worth talking too, as you are doing internal skills.
Er, Dan.... didn't we discuss this in relation to whether this "220 pound man" was a student of yours or not? The sort of thing you're describing happening would involve either a cooperative "stooge" (which are in many martial arts of all styles) or someone with less than moderate skills. Why not qualify it like that, just to keep it on the up and up?

Yes, some of the skills you're talking about are original and vital components of Aikido (I'm not willing to say "all" the stuff you talk about is important or that I agree with it), but instead of telling everyone how important those skills are, I think you should accept Sorentino's offer to share some your information. Frankly, I'm surprised that you didn't immediately take him up on his courteous and well-worded offer.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 04-25-2006, 04:44 PM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan,

What exactly would I be learning. I looked back through several of the post, and I have to admit I am kinda confused really. I don't follow e-budo or any other sites that are inferred.

In what context would this be taught?

Fully resistive/uncooperative opponent?

Scenario based?

At combat speed?

Or strictly principle oriented where I gotta position myself the way you tell me to stand and move at the speed, distance, and timing, and degree of control that you dictate?

What is meant by "internal"? etc.

It might be a good idea for us to define exactly what it is we are talking about.

At this point I only know Jimmy and his character, so if he says it is worthwile, it is worthwile to pursue.

However, if you cannot make it down there. I do know of some qualified guys that might be able to come up your way...but I think it is fair to eveyone that we adequately define what it is that we would be coming to.

It certainly would not be to debunk you! But you have to understand, that many of us have been to seminars and things were certain things were professed and the conditions and parameters were so controlled and restrictive that essentially what we recieved was a "dog and pony show" that gave everyone a "warm and fuzzy" that did not know what is going on.

I tend not to have patience to those that cannot demonstrate the competence to throw me or take my center, play with my ki, deal with my attacks...telling me things like "well your KI is not receptive", or "your not ready for the internal arts yet", or "you don't understand what we are doing", "your attacks are wrong" etc., "that is not correct".

I started aikido about 10 years ago at the advice of my karate/aikijistu sensei who strongly encouraged me to attend Saotome Sensei's dojo in Takoma Park MD.

I went to that school. Skeptical and really unclear as to why I was there. I challenged several of his senior students by not really being very cooperative and easy on them. Most were good sports about it...but in the end, they turned me over to Saotome sensei one day who was able to demonstrate quiet competently that I was out of my league.

I was then referred to Bob Galeone , one of his senior students who has/had a good reputation for being fairly tactical in application of aikido. Then on to Jimmy who studied with both Bob and Saotome sensei.

None of these guys required me to change what I did or the conditions I'd present to them to recieve their instruction, they were patient, honest, sincere, and showed me through both example and competence what I needed to do in order to improve internally and tactically in the art of aikido. All the while dealing with the situations I presented.

Never once have I ever been told, my KI is not receptive, I am attacking wrong, I am missing the point of the lesson, or any other excuse for failing to have a response for dealing with things...no matter how difficult of a situation or challenge I posed. They simply showed me how what I was doing would or could be dealt with.

In fact when I was home in August, I trained with Mike Lasky Sensei for a few rounds of randori. My training centers around BJJ these days, so at his level and experience I pulled no punches and did what came to mind when taking ukemi. So, i'd go down, grab his gi, go to a clinch, do most of the things that I'd do to anyone in my BJJ/MMA classes. He soundly handled the situation and I was quite impressed and suprised.

I guess my point is this. I would expect nothing different or less from you if you have truely mastered the things that you would teach.

I just need to have a good understanding of what the parameters and concepts are!
 
Old 04-25-2006, 05:31 PM   #28
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Am I required to do it in a manner you few approve of? In fact if it is to be constructive I think I would insist that if it is to be repeated it be continued with some regularity. You cannot learn this stuff in weeked it takes time.
Not, what "we few" approve of: it's what ETIQUETTE requires.

Symbolic gesture, esp in MA, is very important, as you no doubt, well know. If I walk into a strange dojo and the Sensei requires that I remove my black belt: he isn't just asking me to remove an article of clothing...he is saying that my training before my visit is valueless, and has no merit in his dojo.

By the same token, you aren't just coming to a dojo to demonstrate your claims in a "manner we few approve:" it's about follow-through. Jim laid down the gauntlet: and now you seem curiously hesitant to take a few days out to prove your words in an Aikido-dojo setting.

It's more than just the trip: it's the subtext, underneath your actions. Can you demonstrate what you say, in an Aikido format?

If you aren't just blowing hot air: this shouldn't be a problem.

Quote:
I'll teach someone here (which is more conveniant for ME) and film it.
But see, this isn't about your "convenience:" this is about demonstrating what you say you can do...putting your money where your mouth is.

So far, from where I sit: your insistence on venue seems rather artificial, and suggests that your claims are merely situational, and therefore hollow...not to mention rather blatantly ignoring the basic tenets of etiquette.
 
Old 04-25-2006, 11:35 PM   #29
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan,

What exactly would I be learning. I looked back through several of the post, and I have to admit I am kinda confused really. I don't follow e-budo or any other sites that are inferred.
In what context would this be taught?
Fully resistive/uncooperative opponent?
Scenario based?
At combat speed?
Or strictly principle oriented where I gotta position myself the way you tell me to stand and move at the speed, distance, and timing, and degree of control that you dictate?

What is meant by "internal"? etc.

It might be a good idea for us to define exactly what it is we are talking about.


Hi Kevin
Interesting experiences you outlined. People set up qualifiers at your get togethers? Then complain if you don't fall down? I understand your stated impatience with those who cannot move you. I feel the same for those who are unable to adequately handle themselves and call themselves martial "artists."
Perhaps we can come to a mutual satisfaction.
Were you to ask? There would be no qualifiers of any kind. I also read with humor your experiences with "your uncooperatve Ki." I am as unconcerned with the state of anyones cooperation as you can imagine. I only hope and trust you understand what level I am talking here. Something more on the lines of very relaxed 200+ lb. MMA fighters. I am sure we can find a way for everyones Ki to cooperate.
We come, put on the gloves -we fight. Period. I am uninterested in someone’s cooperation in that venue. In the process I usually find time to talk (in a mount or choke) and explain some thing I am actively doing at the time to neutralize them and in general we mix it up, get a little brusied and bloodied but have fun..

That said. Were you to ask for something else...like training and testing? Then the rest...all the rest, is training! Safe, sane, and rather fun. We laugh allot.
Unless you are different- the guys who have walked through the door are pushed, pulled, set up in locks and I measure how they resist while using their whole body. To date I have not met anyone but three CMA guys who had much ability in internal skills.
Than we typically have a few guys of mine do the same thing letting a guest feel them. Then we set about putting them through exercises to re-learn how to use their bodies; to relax, find their feet, the ground, their legs, hips, sacrum, waist, spine and arms. Other than them being usually pleased with how they start to feel different not a lot gets really accomplished in a day. Next I usually go to some lock testing -showing them how to stand and then to cancel out a lock attempt. Then if folks are interested we put on gloves and do strike drills on a heavy bag. I use these to show them how they can hit with real power instead of isolated shoulder, lats, and hip snap. Most guys get some measurable results in true power generation before a weekend is out. Next how to connect and throw doing the same exercises with the body.
Next day or trip out we go to ground and show various mounts, guards, switch-ups etc. while using the ground and whole body, connected movement from your knees and hands, or from your back with an active diaphragm.
Since we have trained with Aikidoka we can use standard Aikido techniques to demonstrate neutralizing, Various Aikido waza, while enhancing everything they do-starting with Irimi and kokyu throws using the body in a powerful manner. Throughout this I usually have a few guys attack and then refuse to take ukemi for anything and just stand there absorbing and redirecting everything used against them. When asked we use what we do as an attack and see what happens.

You asked about the previous examples I laid out.
The examples I set out for internal training we do with the guy pushing first using muscle power. It is the lowest level and what most will encounter. There is whole, other set for use with both using relaxed movement. Think of it as using muscle to push, then using muscle to try to throw-the guy who is actively training is staying relaxed and absorbing misdirecting etc. while not moving his feet, or moving them just a bit. Same thing with the jo. They push-you stand there with the jo extended. Not much value in and of itself. It’s more of a focused test of what you’re doing to receive and neutralize their power and then to generate it. Other training involves a lot of body exercises and repetitive body training to connect your body. Primary goals being to produce a heavy body feel, relaxed fluidity in groundwork, heavy hands in short strikes and fluidity in fighting. Some things we do with kicks and strikes to use a connected body to kick into a heavy bag.
Final goal being relaxed all out fight with strikes, kicks and take downs well in line with anything you would do in BJJ.
Sorry if this is boring you asked what to expect. Training is training. The jo trick, as are some standing tests are tests only and we do them regularly. I also use a long 15 pole for certain training drills.
We can separate out body skill training from MMA for those uninterested. I would have to think about how that would be managed in a mixed group.

Anyway. I will make some times available if people want to come out. I will only do this in small groups who can actually learn and take home things to work on. I am averse to doing it on a one time basis though. The only real chance to get anywhere is to repetitively train.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-25-2006 at 11:48 PM.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 01:25 AM   #30
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
[i]
I feel the same for those who are unable to adequately handle themselves and call themselves martial "artists."

I will make some times available if people want to come out.

I will only do this in small groups who can actually learn and take home things to work on. I am averse to doing it on a one time basis though.

Dan
Talking...not much walking...
 
Old 04-26-2006, 05:48 AM   #31
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Neil

Why don't you arrange to come out! We can set a time. I think I might enjoy meeting you and showing you what we do. In fact I will offer some personal hands on right at the start.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-26-2006 at 05:54 AM.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 06:39 AM   #32
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

It seems this has degenerated into a name calling and confrontational thread and that is disappointing. I believe Jim's offer was a genuine request to see Dan demonstrate his abilities as advertised on several lists over the years. Of course there is some skepticism as is natural. I have it on good and trusted authority that Dan is quite capable. To what extent can he actually demonstrate and teach the things I don't know and will not know until I see or feel him do them? That is the question of inquiring minds. His words have crossed thousands of eyes and caused inquiry to sprout in hundreds of minds. Jim has offered a venue that would allow several people to satisfy their curiosity at once, which seems to make since. Could we please remain civil during the remainder of this discourse.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
 
Old 04-26-2006, 07:05 AM   #33
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
It seems this has degenerated into a name calling and confrontational thread and that is disappointing. I believe Jim's offer was a genuine request to see Dan demonstrate his abilities as advertised on several lists over the years. Of course there is some skepticism as is natural. I have it on good and trusted authority that Dan is quite capable. To what extent can he actually demonstrate and teach the things I don't know and will not know until I see or feel him do them? That is the question of inquiring minds. His words have crossed thousands of eyes and caused inquiry to sprout in hundreds of minds. Jim has offered a venue that would allow several people to satisfy their curiosity at once, which seems to make since. Could we please remain civil during the remainder of this discourse.
Dennis

That's an interesting observation. You think that many people are truly interested in this type of work? I don't mean blathering on the net. or attending some one-time seminar to satisfy curiosity but sustainted involvement? Really? I think most would freak-out, others would like it but say no way I am doing that every week, and still others would never go home and spend hours doing physical exercises fro structure and connection.
If it were true that there are people interested in more that curiosity-seems I would have found similar folks here-who could actually learn. While I have lessened the intensity- so folks don't get hurt as much anymore- my own register is up to the mid hundreds of folks who don't last. I think most want some aspects of what we do to tune them but they don't want to do the intensive solo work (homework) I insist on for the body skills.
BTW-I hope and trust your sources also tell you I am a sweet engaging guy off the mats. I just love the physical chess of it all. takes away the business tensions so I can get zoned.
Anyway, I always question the curiousity factor and have likened it to a car wreck. Nosey people wanting to peek in ..not that I would ever want to train them. I don't think they get why I could care less in satisfying a demand for curiosity resolution. I do what I do. I don't need anyone to approve or validate it-they do.
But your words-echo my own guys who keep wanting to invite people in. You've been teaching for while-doesn't it get too be as pain to see..more newbies when you are trying to bring a group along at a pace with set goals. Its like....Ok stop. It divides my focus. So I am very wary of when new guys can start. Seminars yuk! Do you like them?
FWIW. and not directed at you-The question of whether or not I can teach what I do is in the mnds and hands of the guys who have trained with me for years-their sweat and progress is true enough and well earned. The guys here don't know there are guys here who know me personally-so I let their taunts and insults usually just slide. I am pretty blunt-so I allow for some frustrations.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-26-2006 at 07:19 AM.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 07:18 AM   #34
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

We should all remain open minded and willing to learn from others. I do not believe we have to put someone, or some thing down to make ourselves look better. Having interacted with several followers of the art that claims to be the foundation of Aikido I could formulate many negative comments based on my limited experience. This would serve no purpose as far as I can see. I do know that if a few years ago Mikhail Ryabko or Vladimir Vasiliev would have been predisposed to be on this discussion site and talked about what they could do I would have been among the skeptics. Latter I would have been proven to be wrong.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
 
Old 04-26-2006, 07:28 AM   #35
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Interesting corollary. I have friend who teaches Systema under them. Me and one of my students were with him at home and were shocked at many similarities. Some in the hyper-fluidity and the mechanics of certain strikes and body moves, training to absorb kicks and punches-not quite the way the do, flowing and tactile training etc. We use different means to connect the body to strike with heavy hands and legs though. However, I have found more similarites in the hard-rubber feel of just two CMA teachers I have felt.
It left a certain mutual friend and researcher we both know to speculate over many drinks about a link between Internal training from China-to Hokkaido, Chine to Russia for certain similarities in how to use the body.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-26-2006 at 07:33 AM.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 07:39 AM   #36
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan
Yes I do get tired of traveling around teaching. I have cut by half my schedule. It is tiring to keep correcting the same mistakes in the same people for years. But how else will they learn if I turn my back to them. I believe they try to understand and they do try to retain it. Should I leave it to others who would be glad to step in? It is not about money either. The last seminar I taught I lost over $600 on the overall with time off work. I am truly interested in helping others learn if they truly want to give the time and effort toward that goal. I personally would feel guilty keeping the knowledge I have been allowed to gain over 45 years of training to my self. So I am personally driven to share it. I can no more understand you reluctance than you can understand my keenness in such matters. So I guess we just need to acknowledge the differences and if so disposed accept them.

Best wishes

Dennis

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
 
Old 04-26-2006, 08:51 AM   #37
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
I personally would feel guilty keeping the knowledge I have been allowed to gain over 45 years of training to my self. So I am personally driven to share it. I can no more understand you reluctance than you can understand my keenness in such matters. So I guess we just need to acknowledge the differences and if so disposed accept them. Dennis
Well said Dennis. I agree with you (and sometimes wish I didn't feel the drive to share with truly interested people), but it is our nature and that's all there is to that. Wouldn't it be a dull world if we were all alike! There sure isn't anything involved here yet that's worth going to war about. An invitation has been made and it looks as though it won't be accepted, so what... Dan certainly has the freedom to decline and set his own invitation on his terms in front of everyone. Now we can get on with practice. Ain't life grand!

I have met Dan and can attest that he is "a sweet and engaging guy" that is also blunt and straight to the point. He has been in my dojo and has an open invitation to come back anytime.

Regards to all,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
 
Old 04-26-2006, 09:41 AM   #38
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dear Dan,

You said in post #122, "I did accept the offer. Just not the details." That's not accurate. For the sake of convenience, here is my offer again, as I stated in post #88:

"I propose that we arrange for you to teach a seminar at my dojo in Arlington, Virginia. Like all seminars that I host, it would be open to aikidoka (and practitioners of other aiki-based arts) of all ranks and levels of experience, regardless of organization or affiliation. In the interests of safe and vigorous training, I would limit the number of participants to 80 (60 if we're going to do a lot of weapons work).

If you successfully teach the participants how to do what you say you can do (as well as the jo trick, if that is part of your repertoire), then my dojo will reimburse your expenses and pay you a reasonable honorarium, which you and I will agree on in advance. But if you don't succeed, then we won't."


In post #100, you replied, "If you would like to get together- thats fine with me. Put up or shut up is a fair game. But it will be here. I have enough time getting permission (Husband and family man) for all the things I travel to do as it is. FWIW my guys are very friendly and open. If you would like to bring a couple of guys that's fine as well." This is what the lawyers among us (and I am one) would call a COUNTER-OFFER. It is NOT an ACCEPTANCE. You're a professional, so it would be condescending of me to explain further.

Please note that I said I would LIMIT the number of participants to 80, not that I would REQUIRE 80 people to attend. I would be happy to set a lower limit, so long as the dojo can collect enough to pay the bet if you win, and that there are enough spaces for interested people to attend. My experience with seminars is that far more people say they will attend, than actually show up, and I plan for that.

I am not a fan of big seminars either. I would like plenty of opportunities for the instructor to put his or her hands on me and all the other participants. I attended an excellent seminar with Seishiro Endo-sensei at Robert House's dojo a few weeks ago in Commerce, Georgia. There were about 50 people there. Endo-sensei worked with EVERYONE many times throughout the four classes --- it was inspirational, to say the least.

But Dan, you have been writing on the various martial arts websites for years. You have managed to draw a lot of attention. If you accept my offer and visit my dojo, I am pretty sure that a fair number of people will want to attend, especially if there is enough lead time for people to make travel plans. That's why I did not propose a small get-together. And because you are so visible on the web, and because of the context of this thread, that is why I am keeping my exchanges with you public. We can save the private messaging for mundane details of the seminar, like travel, food, and lodging.

Also, in post #122, you said, "You cannot learn this stuff in weeked it takes time [sic]. A lot of time. MY TIME. for free. After the initial testing nonsense is cleared up the folks can get down to work so I am not wasting MY time and theirs." Again, just to be clear, it was you who stated in several of your posts (most recently, #123) that you do not charge for your instruction, so I don't see the point of this comment, at least with respect to money.

As far as it taking time to learn, I'm sure you're right! But you have also said that most of the work is done in solo practice (post #103: "You have to train this solo at home and continually throughout the day and the drills are painful. Few walk the walk."). I am very interested in learning that solo practice, and so I would like it to be part of the seminar material. I studied Uechi-ryu karatedo actively from 1977 to around 1991 (before aikido ate my life), so I am familiar with the demands and rewards of solo training. Like you, I do not teach martial arts for a living. I have a career and a family, so anything I can learn that would augment my study of aikido, that I can practice outside the dojo, on my own, would be very valuable to me.

I freely admit that I don't know how to do the jo trick. I'd like to learn that as well, so I would want that to be part of the seminar. It seems that at the very least, it would be good mind-body training. At best, I would love to have an aikido dojo full of students who could replicate some of Morihei Ueshiba's seemingly superhuman feats, just for the fun of it.

As for the curriculum for rest of the weekend, let's go back to your post #36: "A judoka throwing you should feel like he is trying to throw a statue. A jujutsu going for a double or single leg should be drilled into the ground. Your throws should not be throws that express anything but formless projections. Your strikes should be devastating with the ground and your center alive in your hands." That seems to me to provide plenty of stuff to practice.

Finally, in post #112, you questioned my friendly intentions several times. Again, let me emphasize that I am INVITING you, sight unseen, to teach at my dojo. The seminar would be open to all aikidoka and practitioners of aiki arts. If you can do and teach what you say you can, my dojo will cover your expenses and pay you an honorarium that we will agree on in advance. I don't think I can get much friendlier than that, even though I told you (in post #109) that it is time for you to put up.

Sincerely,

Jim
 
Old 04-26-2006, 11:57 AM   #39
M. McPherson
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Mr. Sorrentino,

I think your offer of your dojo was both fair and generous, but it seems apparent that Mr. Harden has no interest in either traveling to Virginia, or in teaching a (potentially large...and by that I get the feeling he means more than twenty folks) seminar style one-off session to aiki art practitioners exclusively. So why beat a dead horse by re-stating your offer? If you're honestly interested in whether or not he has the goods to back up what you and others see as passive aggressive internet bluster, why not take him up on his counter offer? If you're willing to pay him an honorarium, why not put the money into traveling to New England, bring some people with you? He even offered to let you film it. In fact, limit the risk financially by making him a stop on an aiki dojo tour of lovely New England, or see if there are any gasshuku/seminars going on up there that you'd like to attend. If he doesn't have the skills he advertises, then at least you got some keiko in at some dojo along the way (hey, make it during fall foliage, and double your money).
As sincere as your offer was, it was still a challenge of the put-up or shut-up variety. And why not, if you're incensed about something, and sincerely want to put yourself out there to see if someone's all that they say they are. But as an earlier poster raised the relevence of etiquette ("protocol" might have been a more accurate term), isn't it tradition that the challenger present his terms on the turf of the challenged, disgrace him in his own house, that sort of thing? Obviously I'm being facetious here, but if you don't want to let this lie (which I'm assuming from your repeated offer), then why not take advantage of the opportunity to determine Mr. Harden's abilities in whatever way possible? Maybe make a new friend, who knows?
Personally, I think it would be great if he took you up on your offer. I'm with Mssrs. Hooker and Clark that it would probably be a lot of fun, pretty informative, and you'd probably all enjoy a beer afterwards. I'm willing to bet that it would just as worthwhile and informative if you were to make the trip north, too.

Sincerely,
Murray McPherson
 
Old 04-26-2006, 11:58 AM   #40
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Neil

Why don't you arrange to come out! We can set a time. I think I might enjoy meeting you and showing you what we do. In fact I will offer some personal hands on right at the start.

Dan
Thank you for the offer, Dan. I appreciate the gesture. However, while I believe that your skill and martial technique is something from which I can learn a thing or two: I feel that this sort of offer should be guided under the tenets of etiquette. It just wouldn't feel right to go to your dojo to watch you make good on your claims.

However, I would look forward to meeting you while you taught the seminar at Jim's dojo. Should you decide to accept, please drop me a line and let me know.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 12:02 PM   #41
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Murray McPherson wrote:
Obviously I'm being facetious here, but if you don't want to let this lie (which I'm assuming from your repeated offer), then why not take advantage of the opportunity to determine Mr. Harden's abilities in whatever way possible?

because,
"All budo begins and ends with rei"
 
Old 04-26-2006, 12:50 PM   #42
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

No one who doubted Morihei Ueshiba ever demanded he come to their dojo. They either went to his dojo, or a place where he was demonstrating. I mean, heck, that's the etiquette of dojo-yaburi; you go to the other dojo! Nor did anyone who wanted to learn from him demand that he come to their dojo; they went to his.

Dan Harden's tendency to be blunt, criticizing, eager to share in the discussion but reticent in giving information has certainly frustrated me on three different boards. And yet, that's my problem, not his. Sure, tone can always be adjusted, but at the same time it can also be ignored. It is not at all incumbent upon Mr. Harden to travel to someone else's dojo and back up his words. He's done the utmost he's obligated to do by opening his dojo to anyone who wants to test him.

I think Mr. Sorrentino's offer was magnanimous, and graciously offered. I think Mr. Harden's response was equally so. I hope that someday the people in this thread can get together.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
 
Old 04-26-2006, 12:56 PM   #43
M. McPherson
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Mr. Reyer,

Now *that's* the post I wanted to write. Well said.

Sincerely,
Murray McPherson
 
Old 04-26-2006, 02:10 PM   #44
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Thanks for taking the time to reply Dan. I appreciate you outlining things. I would definitely be interested in attending such a training event. Sounds like it would take several days though to really grasp the depth of what you are talking about.

Sounds like what you propose would be interesting to connect with my aikido and BJJ backgrounds, as I am always interested in applying proper body alignment, principles, breathing etc to full speed, hard training.

Unfortunately I don't see me coming to Mass anytime in the near future, if I do, I will certainly let you know. It would be nice if we could somehow work it out where you could get with a few guys we all know and trust and work with them. It would go a long way in helping us with our confidence in what you preach and profess.

I certainly understand that it is a committment both in time and money from someone to go to one place or the other.

Good luck in your pursuits and training.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 02:19 PM   #45
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Hello Josh,

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
No one who doubted Morihei Ueshiba ever demanded he come to their dojo. They either went to his dojo, or a place where he was demonstrating. I mean, heck, that's the etiquette of dojo-yaburi; you go to the other dojo! Nor did anyone who wanted to learn from him demand that he come to their dojo; they went to his.
I hate to resort to a cliche, but "the internet changes everything." Unlike Dan, Ueshiba did not spend years broadcasting his own skill and criticizing others over a world-wide network.

Also, Ueshiba demonstrated and taught around Japan. As far as I know, Dan does not do anything similar in the US --- so my invitation stands.

Jim
 
Old 04-26-2006, 05:38 PM   #46
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
If it were true that there are people interested in more that curiosity-seems I would have found similar folks here-who could actually learn. While I have lessened the intensity- so folks don't get hurt as much anymore- my own register is up to the mid hundreds of folks who don't last. I think most want some aspects of what we do to tune them but they don't want to do the intensive solo work (homework) I insist on for the body skills.
Dan,
Another to consider if you are sincere in your interest in spreading what you are teaching is that a larger seminar could prove to be more beneficial. By your own statement above the majority drop out quickly.

So if 3 out of 4 drop out by bringing in 4 people to do a "demo/seminar" you'll lose 3. If you extended that seminar to the 80 Jim suggested then that is 20 people that will take your information back to VA, GA, TN, TX, etc.

Hopefully this will work out as it could shape up to be an interesting, informative, and fun weekend.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 08:56 PM   #47
Nick P.
 
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Hmmm....

Someone, or several someones, have seen fit to rank this thread 1 out of 5 stars. Quelle surprise.

 
Old 04-27-2006, 06:45 AM   #48
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to reply Dan. I appreciate you outlining things. I would definitely be interested in attending such a training event. Sounds like it would take several days though to really grasp the depth of what you are talking about.

Sounds like what you propose would be interesting to connect with my aikido and BJJ backgrounds, as I am always interested in applying proper body alignment, principles, breathing etc to full speed, hard training.

Unfortunately I don't see me coming to Mass anytime in the near future, if I do, I will certainly let you know. It would be nice if we could somehow work it out where you could get with a few guys we all know and trust and work with them. It would go a long way in helping us with our confidence in what you preach and profess.

I certainly understand that it is a committment both in time and money from someone to go to one place or the other.

Good luck in your pursuits and training.
Kevin

Well, a couple of day may give you a taste for what you can perhaps do with it, and to pull out what you may want to work in YOUR aikido or BJJ. But to think you are going to get ANY depth in two days will be misleading. Its taken me decades and about 12-15 years in specific internal training.
Pulling out parts and pieces
I have a guy who is going through the prequalifying rotine for UFC who is sarting to train now, he doesn't have time to do everything he should do, so he pulling out things he needs for now. He wants to train in week long block in the future. As with Jim, I said "No thanks." He's all muscle, it's going to take years to break that down re-wire it. I don't have the time for that unless it is on my schedule. I told him he has to decide.
I'm glad you commented more on the real training and not the ki tricks. As I said before, the ki tricks are tricks, and tricks are for....Some of the ki tricks I can put my hands on you, line you up and get some results in the first day. But then men fall apart when they go home or practice the wrong thing. The jo trick is done by several guys in CMA they would probably laugh hearing its the "pinnacle" of someones measure or ideal. There are far more "real" golas to be after. Pushing, in the dojo is fine but get to be a whole new world when being kicked and punched and having your legs swept. So after the eye candy of being wowed upon learning adn realizing they can indeed do these things, it is the real truth of WILL they do these training exercises at home to develope real skill in action.
It really is all about sweat- and like golf-a personal truth. You are doing it or not.
Almost everyday I train on a 100lb heavy bag. After hitting and kicking- standard fair yes-but not when you are training to hit and kick the way we do. Next up is sumo strikes, next power release into the bag. One of the drills is to stand there with it pushed out at a steep angle away from the chain. I hold it up with my arms and continuing to monitor NOT to be using them but use the legs, and hips to move it.
Then I move it around with my back to it- out to my arms (like me being a cross) over and over, rolling across my back out to my finger tips back to the other arm to the finger tips all while maintaining a sound structure and letting the ground come up and out across my body lines and not flexing or using the shoulders. When it reaches each finger group you pause really concentrate to let the shoulders go and use the ground.
That I do for about an hour ,then I do Wepaon work for a koryu I train in. I have the strange feeling most everyone else who trains with me is home watching the T.V.
And so it goes.

cheers
Dan
 
Old 04-27-2006, 06:54 AM   #49
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
Dan,
Another to consider if you are sincere in your interest in spreading what you are teaching is that a larger seminar could prove to be more beneficial. By your own statement above the majority drop out quickly.

So if 3 out of 4 drop out by bringing in 4 people to do a "demo/seminar" you'll lose 3. If you extended that seminar to the 80 Jim suggested then that is 20 people that will take your information back to VA, GA, TN, TX, etc.

Hopefully this will work out as it could shape up to be an interesting, informative, and fun weekend.
Mr. OBrian

I never said anything about spreading anything to anyone. Nor spreading me....to the thread-bare line.
Maybe when I retire or something. But I did, for the first time, offer to let someone come.
I am continually training, experimenting, failing at some experiments, re-training, and trying to get better. Add to that a separate Koryu art I am involved in- an fairly well suck at- and trying to learn, add to that the new CMA people I am playing with add to that trying to teach the guys I got, add to that my family, my son wanting me to teach him to forge, add to that my business.

Enough for me.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 04-27-2006, 07:09 AM   #50
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dennis and Chuck

Thanks guys for the kind words. I hope ya two hooligans realize I am not looking down on teaching or those who are drawn to share. Instead I look "up" to it or them. Its just not me. Quite frankly I don't know how you do it. I think if men like it-they are drawn to it and have the jiuce for it. I am drawn inward and my "juice" is to continually push me and to keep learning.

I am having a blast with the new CMA gys I have met. They can't believe that many /most JMA people don't know these internal skills. On the other hand as for fighting, I havent seen much from them yet, they have me teaching them, how to use what they already know to fight with. But at least its starting from the right body mechanics. I have ti make the rounds with them this year with their masters to feel them.

As for a mindset.
Draeger shared, but did not teach per se. He died quietly. Buried in a quiet fashion. No Fuss. He spent his life learning.
Not that I am able in any way to compare my life-and I am not. But that is more to what I aspire to.
Were he ensconsed (or chained as I usually feel) behind a computer -drafting like I am-would he "talk" in his boredom like I do? I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't.
Anyway..blah blah blah. again... thanks for kind words. I hope to get to Arizona again this year Chuck.

Cheers
Dan
 

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