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Old 02-05-2010, 11:41 PM   #1
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Quote:
Scott Harrington wrote: View Post
These are two clips from the very RECENTLY released "Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu: What is Aiki?", done by the mainstream Headmaster Kondo Sensei.

1. This is the difficulty of Youtube. I think that Kondo Sensei did not intend to see 20 minutes of his DVD released to the public for free.

2. Vendors like www.budovideos.com will stop carrying these excellent DVD's because there is no respect for copyright infringement.

Was going to do a review in the near future. This is an excellent DVD, Kondo is an excellent teacher, well done and worth every penny you spend on it. Many neat insights.

Scott Harrington
Hi Scott,

Youtube will immediately pull the video and warn the posted if the infringement is reported.

Toby Threadgill
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Old 02-06-2010, 03:47 AM   #2
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

I agree totally regarding the copyright situation. On the flip side however those clips have encouraged me to buy the DVD so it depends on how one looks at it I guess.

Why would I buy the DVD now? Because what it covers is exactly what was shown to me by Shihan Fumiaki Shishida, 8th Dan J.A.A. last year at his seminar in Toronto on the meanings of Aiki in Aikido. I was most interested by how he and Kondo Sensei used practically the same words to describe the nature Aiki. The clips gave me some more points of reference and triggered some important memories of the training we did. The comparison between Ju and Aiki waza regarding Sen, Kuzushi and ma ai were very interesting.

Thanks for posting those, I have been looking for more information on this sort of stuff for some time.

Best

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 02-06-2010 at 03:51 AM.

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Old 02-06-2010, 06:30 AM   #3
dalen7
 
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Copyright issues...

In truth there is a balance - yet fear and control seem to rule the day.

If things are let to run their natural course everything balances out - things are not as cut and dry as people would like it to be, which is more out of a sense, again of fear, etc.

The energy you put into something you will get back - the issue tends to be trying to over milk something, and instead of creating new viable offerings its remakes of what already is.

While there is nothing new under the sun, many people are not even motivated to go beyond their one hit wonder and want royalties beyond the grave for the work that they got from inspiration from someone else, who in turn was inspired by someone else, who ripped off God.

Again, I understand the issues at hand, and they really are not that bad. The mistake is that people would have paid for or bought a given item had it not been made available for free.

The concept that some items are only worth, to some people, seeing for free is hard to grasp, and harder to grasp that you could look at this as a positive that someone took the time to enjoy your creation.

Again, I have no ideas about the videos in question, Im just responding to the whole copyright issue as it is.

Back in the days we had devices to record things and share... now sharing is piracy and stealing. [Something to do with a mass scale of potential revenue, which I stated is only a mental concept which is proven either way to be such.]

The best one can hope for is to give something from themselves that they want to share with the world and trust that the universe/God will take care of them... we have no securities.

Consider communism who took away land from my in-laws, etc.
You really own nothing. Once an idea is born its open to the world.
Quite often the same idea happens at the same time at different points across the world.

Reminds me of JK Rowling.
Once she created the structure it was up to the readers/viewers to make what they wanted of the characters.

Its pandoras box, once its out, everything really is public domain as the concept of ownership in practical terms is egoic and not really tangible... and why it will and always will slip through the fingers of those who grasp tightly.

Like an article I saw about buying property on the moon... how silly. Same as France, Spain, etc. owning islands... who gives who the 'right' to something they do not even have their shoes on? Its all a mental game that at the moment people decide to shift their mind changes.

This is core truth, its practical, free, and helps alleviate suffering when realized... other than that the circle of us vs. them continues, and the lesson Aikido has to teach alludes us.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Sharing has a way of coming back to you... I personally tend to like to help those of a generous heart.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:34 AM   #4
dalen7
 
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Quote:
Scott Harrington wrote: View Post

1. This is the difficulty of Youtube. I think that Kondo Sensei did not intend to see 20 minutes of his DVD released to the public for free.
It could help... I would never have heard of him had it not been for this thread. It would be interesting his reaction to his clips being on youtube... would tell me a lot about him.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-06-2010 at 06:37 AM.

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Old 02-06-2010, 02:04 PM   #5
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Copyright issues...

In truth there is a balance - yet fear and control seem to rule the day.

If things are let to run their natural course everything balances out - things are not as cut and dry as people would like it to be, which is more out of a sense, again of fear, etc.

The energy you put into something you will get back - the issue tends to be trying to over milk something, and instead of creating new viable offerings its remakes of what already is.

While there is nothing new under the sun, many people are not even motivated to go beyond their one hit wonder and want royalties beyond the grave for the work that they got from inspiration from someone else, who in turn was inspired by someone else, who ripped off God.

Again, I understand the issues at hand, and they really are not that bad. The mistake is that people would have paid for or bought a given item had it not been made available for free.

The concept that some items are only worth, to some people, seeing for free is hard to grasp, and harder to grasp that you could look at this as a positive that someone took the time to enjoy your creation.

Again, I have no ideas about the videos in question, Im just responding to the whole copyright issue as it is.

Back in the days we had devices to record things and share... now sharing is piracy and stealing. [Something to do with a mass scale of potential revenue, which I stated is only a mental concept which is proven either way to be such.]

The best one can hope for is to give something from themselves that they want to share with the world and trust that the universe/God will take care of them... we have no securities.

Consider communism who took away land from my in-laws, etc.
You really own nothing. Once an idea is born its open to the world.
Quite often the same idea happens at the same time at different points across the world.

Reminds me of JK Rowling.
Once she created the structure it was up to the readers/viewers to make what they wanted of the characters.

Its pandoras box, once its out, everything really is public domain as the concept of ownership in practical terms is egoic and not really tangible... and why it will and always will slip through the fingers of those who grasp tightly.

Like an article I saw about buying property on the moon... how silly. Same as France, Spain, etc. owning islands... who gives who the 'right' to something they do not even have their shoes on? Its all a mental game that at the moment people decide to shift their mind changes.

This is core truth, its practical, free, and helps alleviate suffering when realized... other than that the circle of us vs. them continues, and the lesson Aikido has to teach alludes us.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Sharing has a way of coming back to you... I personally tend to like to help those of a generous heart.
Mr Dalen,

How inane. So, I'm supposed to "believe" that my artistic or intellectual creation will somehow make a cosmic donation to the great universal bank account in the sky. And that I can withdraw from this account?

Ahh , if only the world was so altruistic.....

How about a reality check. Some of us utilize our creative talents to pay our bills, feed our families, and save for retirement. When the rights to control our intellectual or creatively inspired property is stolen, the financial compensation we rightfully deserve for our work is likewise stolen. Some pie in the sky hope that the "universe" is going to compensate us for our creativity is insulting, preposterous and painfully naive. Imagine me telling my mortgage holder..."Oh, don't worry, the universe will pay my mortgage any day now. I promise! Just be patient. The check from the universe is in the mail."

International courts recognize that intellectual property is just as valuable and tangible an asset as an automobile or or wrist watch. Therefore, stealing is stealing. Simple as that. You steal art, you steal research, you steal a car. It's all the same. STEALING!

The commercial photography and illustration industry has been savaged by copyright infringement. I know individuals who have suffered intellectual fraud and theft to the level that they have been forced into bankruptcy, while the companies and individuals who stole their work, continue to use the stolen property to line their pockets. It is despicable, dishonest and rightfully an internationally recognized crime.

So please, stop with the ivory tower B.S. that infers us creative types should just give away our work for free and wait for the golden shower that universal kindness will provide us.

Lastly....Anyone can create anything and put it in the public domain. No one is stopping anyone from doing that. Wanting to utilize a vehicle like Youtube for self promotion, private or public service is great. But that is a decision rightfully made by the creator. So, Kondo approving or disapproving of his video being on Youtube is up to Kondo, not some jerk in Hungary that thinks its okay to post it. By doing so, this person violated his Terms of Service Agreement with Youtube..

From the Youtube TOS

"Respect copyright. Only upload videos that you made or that you are authorized to use. This means don't upload videos you didn't make, or use content in your videos that someone else owns the copyright to, such as music tracks, snippets of copyrighted programs, or videos made by other users, without necessary authorizations."

_____

I aggressively protect my intellectual property via international copyright laws and will continue to do so.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:44 PM   #6
Janet Rosen
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

As an artist I'm with Toby on this one. What gets excerpted and posted for free as a promo should be what the creator of the work chooses to excerpt and post.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:58 PM   #7
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Copyright issues...

In truth there is a balance - yet fear and control seem to rule the day.

The energy you put into something you will get back - the issue tends to be trying to over milk something, and instead of creating new viable offerings its remakes of what already is.

While there is nothing new under the sun, many people are not even motivated to go beyond their one hit wonder and want royalties beyond the grave for the work that they got from inspiration from someone else, who in turn was inspired by someone else, who ripped off God.

Again, I understand the issues at hand, and they really are not that bad. The mistake is that people would have paid for or bought a given item had it not been made available for free.

The concept that some items are only worth, to some people, seeing for free is hard to grasp, and harder to grasp that you could look at this as a positive that someone took the time to enjoy your creation.

Again, I have no ideas about the videos in question, Im just responding to the whole copyright issue as it is.

The best one can hope for is to give something from themselves that they want to share with the world and trust that the universe/God will take care of them... we have no securities.

This is core truth, its practical, free, and helps alleviate suffering when realized... other than that the circle of us vs. them continues, and the lesson Aikido has to teach alludes us.

Peace

dAlen
I'm always surprised when those who are training in traditional asian arts get so laissez-faire about things like intellectual copyright. To paraphrase Ellis Amdur (in a book that I bought BTW): people have sacrificed whole opportunities in their lives to help preserve and transmit these arts.

When they choose to make some of this knowledge available publicly, ripping it off shows huge disrespect to the art and lineage. I think that one of the reasons traditional arts have managed to survive in Asia as opposed to Europe is that enough people have been prepared to pay to learn/enjoy them. There's a good debate on the pros/cons of this issue relating to MAs in the archives here. I recommend you search for it.

Last edited by oisin bourke : 02-06-2010 at 02:59 PM. Reason: typing
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Old 02-06-2010, 10:09 PM   #8
BlueDevilfish
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

I certainly agree that it is the choice of the copyright owner as to whether they share some or all of their work on the internet. No one should do so without permission of the owner.

The question that interests me is do clips on Youtube (or similar) decrease or increase the likelihood of someone purchasing a product?

I stumbled across a music group on Youtube a little while ago and have so far bought 4 of their DVDs and 2 CDs. I have now seen clips from their latest DVD on Youtube and will definitely be buying the latest DVD and CD. The result of them having clips on the internet is that I will have purchased 5 of their DVDs and 3 CDs for a group that I would never have even heard of if not for Youtube.

I am aware though that this may not always be the case - some people may just download a clip and never purchase the original.
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Old 02-06-2010, 10:40 PM   #9
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

To me it is not whether folks will buy it or not based on seeing or hearing it, but it is the choice of the creator to choose to adopt that model/mode of distribution.

Personally I like seeing or hearing clips of music/video on youtube, it is helpful to me to make purchase decisions, but again, that is the choice of the creator and not some guy that decides to share intellectual property with the world. it is wrong ethically to do so without permission of the owner!

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Old 02-07-2010, 02:03 AM   #10
dalen7
 
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mr Dalen,

How inane. So, I'm supposed to "believe"
... thats the great part, I dont require belief from anyone concerning anything - each person is free to formulate their own opinions and I fully respect that. [Does not mean I reach a consensus or agreement, but their is room for both of us... and that way we have peace - and that truly is what is important!]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
love the car analogy! I wish we could duplicate cars like that! [Maybe there is something to this free energy?]

p.s.s.
do we get to blame industry then? not sure you addressed that part where Sony spoiled us with high-speed dubbing, etc. and got us used to sharing

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-07-2010 at 02:16 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:43 AM   #11
dalen7
 
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
So, Kondo approving or disapproving of his video being on Youtube is up to Kondo, not some jerk in Hungary that thinks its okay to post it.
I believe I said the same thing Toby - well, not the Jerk part... [i actually like myself]

The irony here is that Im in a country where its legal to download, copy, etc. - BUT, I do continue to buy my stuff.

Is that strange that I buy things whenever I stated what I did in my other post? Not at all.

Seeing an enemy will for sure create one even if that enemy is not there - seeing potential will open doors that were not there before.

I hope you and I can meet on more cordial terms in the future... it would be nice.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Toby, after re-reading, were you under the impression I posted the clips??? [If so that is funny, as I had nothing to do with it.]

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-07-2010 at 02:48 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:23 AM   #12
dalen7
 
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

A bit of clarity:

I did a search and found the user who posted the clips happens to be from Hungary.

So either Toby thought I posted the clips and called me "a jerk from Hungary" - or I misunderstood Toby as I did not know at the time the guy who posted was from Hungary and thought Toby was calling me a jerk for my ideas.

Either way, this goes to demonstrate the beauty of communication through print medium.

Heck, I even misunderstood Eckhart when I read his book, and after hearing his audiobook with the tone, etc. - got a totally different perspective on what he was saying. [And that guy can communicate clearly!]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
As an example of understanding/misunderstanding:
"not some jerk in Hungary that thinks its okay to post it."

a: someone who feels it is okay to post it
b: someone who actually post it
b2: referring to who from Hungary [as it was not clear at the time], etc.

Isnt communication grand?
Like Eckhart says, "makes you want to shut up... but Ill say one more thing"

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-07-2010 at 03:36 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:25 AM   #13
dalen7
 
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Copyright & Artist

First,

Caveat
Toby, if you haven't read my final comment on the other thread please read it. [It appears there was a misunderstanding which I tried to clarify]

Intro
Having got that caveat out of the way, I figured it may be of interest to those who read my lengthy, "idealistic" post and found it "unrealistic" and "out of touch" to read this...

The fact of the matter is that both my wife and I fully understand the artist.
My wife is a fine & applied artist, and I am a video/film & new media producer/director. [Having worked for well known international companies... not just an independent]

Point is, I understand peoples concerns of copyright... let me share a story:

Culture:
First and foremost, regardless of how much we hate an idea or believe it is wrong, it would behoove us to try to understand why things are the way they are.

What may apply in one country/culture is approached from a completely different mindset in another.

May I be clear, its not enough having visited, and lived in another country. [I have lived in over 3 different countries and over 7 states!]

To truly know a culture you must separate all connections from that which you take for granted... live in the countryside, away from the city, the way 99% of the locals live. Your primary contact with with locals and not internationals, etc.

Ive done this for 5 years here in Hungary and it has been an eye opener. When I first came there was no culture shock... the second time, there was as I actually got into the culture.
Not many people get this immersed except missionaries lost on some island with natives... in this global world it is easy to still connect with your culture and therefore not truly see life from another view.

A Hungarian Tale
Hungary is a unique situation, in that it is a 'lost country'... surrounded by people who are not remotely related to them.

What is happening now in Hungary is sad for the most part, and sometimes downright frustrating. It is what is left over from the communist era - the talented Hungarians who can, leave and those I knew stateside dont even like to remember they came from here. [I knew quite a few stateside...]

[note: to get anywhere you have to look past the mess and at what works, and at the individual... there is a lot of good and its a matter of finding it - its all to easy to find the bad... this does not mean letting people walk over you, again there is balance which varies based on the current circumstances]

Let me tell you a tale about being an artist here:
You are used, you dont get paid, and they rip off virtually everything.

Who am I talking about? Businesses, not individuals...
You would be surprised at how businesses rip off the artist.

We had a local business ask my wife to draw some sample pictures for a book. They held them, and when we went back they told us it wasnt quite what they were looking for... but the guy kept gleaming and gloating over one particular picture that he hated to give back. [Point is he scanned it in... never again]

You guys think there are issues, this example is only the beginning... large corporations not only cheat the artist but cheat everyone else as well. The way things managed here is a wreck and everyone suffers.

People are poor and work 2-3 jobs as one job cannot even cover the gas bills in winter, let alone feed their kids... its crazy.

Individuals
So the individuals are left with what they have.
They scour the net and download, [still legal here despite the EU - that isnt as straight forward as many think], to enjoy what part of a life they have left.

Is this right? What is right?

I noticed that the clips on the other thread in question were posted from Hungary... doesnt surprise me actually. [well, seeing it in an english speaking place, it kind of does... but youtube is taking off here.]

Its easy to get bent out of shape over things, but there is a hierarchy to this mess. The crap starts upstream and goes down.

The way I see it
I already said how I saw it in the other thread... as idealistic and fairytale as this may seem - I believe in it, and as mentioned we have been 'robbed' when it comes to actual companies using our work without permission here.

Basically there is a lot of stuff that is sat on that can be in public domain, and yet a lot of stuff more that people would rather keep to themselves than let someone share.

Surely there is a balance in this... and I do say fear holds back.
Having the music industries mentality of, "could have been sales" just is unrealistic and not looking at the full picture... and quite egoic/self-centered at that. [especially when they are the ones ripping off artist - all artist should just go directly through apple itunes for advertisement and sales and skip Warner, etc. - I think the music companies know this and that is why things are the way they have been.]

Conclusion
This may or may not make a lick of sense... I write it as it comes.
My main point is that there just is not one mold for everything... well one, but its the one we usually try to break.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
To adequately get the point across I would need to turn this into [another] 600 page book.
[After all its a mix of my life experience with my time here over the past 5 years that has helped to formulate my view point.]

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-07-2010 at 04:38 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:43 AM   #14
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Re: Copyright & Artist

So overall people have it pretty good... they havent experienced corporations stealing from them... literally.
[Well while the entertainment industry is as guilty in my opinion as the small and large Hungarian businesses who rip off the artist... at least the artist does get some money with the entertainment industry.]

i.e.
A company took a full illustrated book from a friend of ours and never paid her.
This isnt carelessness on the friends part... but the ruthless 'business' nature you can find here in Hungary toward artist. [and its not just towards them, but this is a good example]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Maybe I need to start a collection agency to protect artist here... I got the Aikido

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-07-2010 at 04:50 AM.

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Old 02-07-2010, 07:29 AM   #15
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Dalen,

Not a legal expert on Hungarian Law, but they are a member of the EU so I would bet they have the same international copyright laws that apply to all EU countries, as such it would be illegal to copy and distribute such things even in Hungary.

Enforcement is another issue. Even if it were legal in Hungary, it would be illegal elsewhere and Youtube abides by "normal" copyright laws, therefore, if the creator complained or pushed the issue, it would still be illegal.

Enforcement? a different issue.

Cultural sense of entitlement? another issue as well.

We also have that issue today in the U.S with the advent of all this technology and the ease of downloading etc.

In today's world, we have a looser sense of "right" and entitlement because we have grown to expect a certain amount of material, exchange of intellect to be "free".

Of course there is a balance, which is your point.

Doubt Toby is calling you in particular a jerk.

You have to expect a heated discussion from artist and those that earn their living off there knowledge, skills, and wisdom (intellectual property), they have worked hard to synthesize what they know...they are typically generous too!

However, when some Bozo decides to plaster what they do all over the internet and encroach upon their ability to earn a living...well...then they are being a Jerk...and that is being polite!

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Old 02-07-2010, 08:23 AM   #16
dalen7
 
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dalen,

Not a legal expert on Hungarian Law, but they are a member of the EU so I would bet they have the same international copyright laws that apply to all EU countries, as such it would be illegal to copy and distribute such things even in Hungary.

You have to expect a heated discussion from artist and those that earn their living off there knowledge, skills, and wisdom (intellectual property), they have worked hard to synthesize what they know...they are typically generous too!

However, when some Bozo decides to plaster what they do all over the internet and encroach upon their ability to earn a living...well...then they are being a Jerk...and that is being polite!
- As for the last part in your quote above, that appears to be where the miscommunication came in, as described in my last post of this thread.

- As for artist, my wife and I totally relate as we are professional artist - producer/directors of fine/applied art & digital video/media...
[have been for 16+ years.]

- As for Hungarian E.U. law, it may be surprising to realize but things arent as cut and dried as one might assume.
[i.e., some people assume that E.U. means free trade across borders, using the Euro, etc. - only recently has Hungary had the borders open without checks, and the Euro is nowhere in sight.
As for downloading, copying, the last official word I heard is that its legit - you just cant upload.]

Now... this may sound awkward, but take a look at the thread I made which was spun off from the discussion here.
You will begin to realize that there are more legit concerns here than downloading and sharing media...

The primary issues are the fact that companies, [here in Hungary] are not paying artist, they steal work outright and use it without any royalties/credits at all. [We are talking about a big corporate mess here, and western companies hands are not clean either.]

As I hinted at in the new thread on this topic, the real issue is the theft in the corporate world, we fight each other while the structure at the top is broken and leaking the sewage downstream... and that is what the people swim in, and "monkey see, monkey do"

Again, Im not arguing any point of view - I have been clear that I think people get a bit over tight about things and it only makes it worse... [again, we have had work stolen from us... from a company... so we relate]. But the point is, things are not black and white... there are so many shades of grey connecting the two colors [white and black] that its crazy.

Each situation has its own balance to it for those who wish to seek it. [Im not the best at explaining things, but Im sure you know where Im coming from.]

Peace

dAlen

p,s,
Reminds me of my early years when a large corporation, [design firm that is now under], had a producer that did not want to pay me for my work... we lived pay check by pay check.
It was my luck I had a contract my wife had me make with the guys signature on it.

As soon as I emailed a copy of that to the company a check was cut immediately.
After he ignored every other email.
[We went to celebrate after the check of course]

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-07-2010 at 08:36 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

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Old 02-07-2010, 03:36 PM   #17
Toby Threadgill
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Hello,

The Hungarian jerk I referred to is the person who violated Youtube's TOS by posting copyrighted material without the authority to do so.

I beIieve I have made myself clear. An artist owns the rights to his creation until or unless he sells those rights or puts his creation into public domain. It's really very simple. Any unauthorized use of another persons intellectual property is theft.

I have nothing else to add.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:00 AM   #18
Keith Larman
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

I have said it before and I'll say it again. The attitudes expressed in this thread by some is creating a world where there is a overwhelming bloat of shallow, incomplete information while those with the depth of knowledge increasingly refuse to disseminate what they know. So the pool just becomes wider and wider as each day passes, but it is increasingly shallow.

Intellectual property has suffered greatly due to the attitudes expressed in this thread. Ironically I was asked just recently for some technical opinions about protecting video content by a group that studies an ancient (and some would say dying) art form. They have access to a lot of very good information that they would like to publish but are afraid that as a non profit that they will not be able to afford the licensing and costs associated with making the information widely available should it simply end up on youtube (which it will). So the bottom line? I doubt they'll do it.

But, all that said, ultimately this discussion has nothing to do with whether someone benefits or not from their intellectual property. What it has to do with is the right of the intellectual property creator to maintain control over their intellectual property. If they don't want it shared, that's it. Everything else is irrelevant. Yes, it may be unavoidable because so few even thing twice about copying it. And that may be the way things will be from now on. But if the owner doesn't want it share it isn't up to someone else to decide it is "better" for them if they steal it and share it. What? I think I'll go to the local car lot and steal a car to show some friends who might be interested in buying one themselves... That's in their best interest, right?

In the end we will have the world we deserve. Those who know will have zero reason to spend the time/money/resources to disseminate their info. And we'll be left with guys in their mom's basements wearing their ninja turtle underoos showing their made up twirly two-sword farting weasel style sword kata...

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Old 02-08-2010, 12:40 PM   #19
jss
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Intellectual property has suffered greatly due to the attitudes expressed in this thread. Ironically I was asked just recently for some technical opinions about protecting video content by a group that studies an ancient (and some would say dying) art form. They have access to a lot of very good information that they would like to publish but are afraid that as a non profit that they will not be able to afford the licensing and costs associated with making the information widely available should it simply end up on youtube (which it will). So the bottom line? I doubt they'll do it.
Depends on their goals. If they want to spread the information and just want to generate enough revenue to cover the costs, I can see that happening.
The most common advice is: change your business model. As in: artist should perform more often and depend less on record sales. Unfortunately it's hard to apply this to e.g. writers (more public readings?) or martial artists (I don't think koryu seminars scale up well in frequency or number of participants.)

Quote:
What it has to do with is the right of the intellectual property creator to maintain control over their intellectual property. If they don't want it shared, that's it. Everything else is irrelevant.
I think few people will disagree with that, but there are two other issues you should take into account:
- A lot of media and media players haves been crippled in the fight against copyright violations. Think DRM.
- The organizations 'representing' the artist have a huge image problem. It seems they are more after profit than after the artist's best interest.
- Stupid laws like an extra tax on (re-)writable CDs and DVDs for the benefit for artists. Why does an artist get money, when I backup my personal data?
- It takes too long for copyrighted works to become public domain. Classic example: 'Steamboat Willie' by Disney. Created in 1928, copyrighted under current US law until 2023. The law has been changed three times already to extend the copyright.
So it seems both (all?) sides are making some serious errors here.

Quote:
I think I'll go to the local car lot and steal a car to show some friends who might be interested in buying one themselves... That's in their best interest, right?
That's the problem with the term 'intellectual property': if I steal a car, the owner no longer has the car. If I violate a copyright of yours, you may have lost a sale (or several), gained one (or several) or come out even. The big problem is you have absolutely no way of knowing how it will turn out and you don't just want to guess and hope for the best.

Quote:
In the end we will have the world we deserve. Those who know will have zero reason to spend the time/money/resources to disseminate their info.
I'm not that pessimistic. Those who know will find new ways of sharing their info. We're in a transitional period in which the old model is failing and the new one hasn't fully developed yet. And in some aspects the new model will be better than the old one and in some aspects it will be worse. It's the way things go.

Recommend reading about this and other paradigm shifts in copyright: Free Culture by Lawrence Lessig (available online, free and legal).
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:15 PM   #20
Keith Larman
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

I've read the book. Good read too.

And I agree that there will be serious changes in how things will be distributed. Many of those changes, however, will come about simply because people have become burned so badly by those who violate copyright, rendering the ability to make it worth their effort to release instructional material especially within niche markets simply impossible. Every time someone does this with someone like Kondo the likelihood of more coming out in the future diminishes even more.

And I know of at least 3 projects involving my other Japanese related love that never got off the ground due to concerns of copying rendering them economically impossible. All while people complain about the lack of good information in English of the very same topic.

Maybe there will be a way for people to actually make it feasible to write a book or create a video in the future. But... So far it looks like the future is going to be more about an overwhelming tsunami of shallow information on-line. With those who really know their stuff in niche areas simply doing what they used to do -- teach in private and in person -- the rest be damned. Which maybe is the real lesson here -- it never *should* have been shared with everyone in the first place.

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Old 02-08-2010, 02:51 PM   #21
David Orange
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Personally I like seeing or hearing clips of music/video on youtube, it is helpful to me to make purchase decisions, but again, that is the choice of the creator and not some guy that decides to share intellectual property with the world. it is wrong ethically to do so without permission of the owner!
A lot of bands get really riled when their record label forces clips to be removed from YouTube because they find it to be extremely helpful marketing for their songs.

But I'm with you and Toby: you own it, you decide. You don't own it, don't post it.

Of course a lot of folks think they "own" it because they paid for a copy. I don't agree.

As a writer, I've suffered a lot of rejections for my novels. But that doesn't give anyone the right to publish one of my old manuscripts and sell it, just because I haven't. It's just thievery.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 02-09-2010, 01:44 AM   #22
dalen7
 
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Got to thinking more about the topic of the martial artist and their adaptation, taking advantage of, what modern technology has to offer.

One person who sticks out in my mind who seems to have adapted successfully - and it could be that its because he is part of the technological generation that it was more natural for him to adapt - is Roy Dean.

His method has impressed me and seems to be working well for him.

He networks via forums like this, as well as having his own youtube channel with clips available that help the person see what he is about as well as judge if what he is doing flows for them.

In a way the advertisement is more than throwing clips up, but he intertwines, or rather, teases one with his DVDs so that you want more. [artist tend to be poor self promoters]

The only thing that might be a step up is if he went to iTunes to allow for instant delivery to cut cost of international shipping, etc.
[If you dont register mail to Hungary, it gets 'lost' - ask any expat and Im sure you will get the same response.]

Though iTunes is still not in our country, aside from apps for the iphone. [guess I will have to wait, and I know Im interested in all his BJJ videos as well as his art of the wrist lock]

[Enough about Hungarian issues] lol

Fact is, overall he seems to have a viable business model, along with running a dojo. Kudos to him with this, and perhaps its a guide for others who teach martial arts as well.

The one thing that impresses me the most is how he explains things... from what I have seen of his clips, its pretty straight forward and clear. [one thing knowing something, another to get someone else to understand the subtleties... something Im finding out with teaching Aikido.]

Anyway, just some thoughts...

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-09-2010 at 01:50 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

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Old 02-09-2010, 09:44 AM   #23
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Roy has done a good job and is a good example of a more "modern" way of marketing/sharing. However, that is Roy's choice to do so.

BJJ is different in some respects. There is a poliferation of techniques, etc out on the market. It is wide open. Brazilians tried to use the "old" model, but You Tube came about at the same time, and frankly all of a sudden any kid with a camera and a book of techniques and a few wins in local tournaments was an "expert".

So giving the BJJ market, I think it is wise to choose the model that Roy has chosen...i.e. "Open Source".

By doing so, he brings folks in to his fold where he can focus on Quality and Growth...things that cannot be conveyed in a video.

However, alot of intellectual property that folks get riled up about...especially in koryu and other pursuits is based on synthesis and wisdom...representing years of work in which one kid with a computer can devalue in a few minutes.

It comes down to the business model you feel is best for you. That is the point, the choice is the owner's of the property...not the guy who obtains it on a DVD.

Microsoft decided to not go "Open Source" whereas Linux choose "Open Source".

Two ways of doing business in the same market!

I personally prefer Roy's approach.

However, I have several respected people in Internal Arts and Koryu arts that I have (and will) study with, and I value greatly what they share with me. It is highly personal when they work with you and they have years of experience, and they are generous.

I never feel "ripped off" by their control of their property in fact I actually feel I get MORE value from the fact that they are so personal in their approach to working with me.

To take the materials they have given me and freely offer them to the world would quickly end that relationship and make it meaningless since one, it violates the trust they put in me. Two, it takes away from their ability to support themselves and provide the highly personal interaction that is necessary to transmit their body of knowledge.

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Old 03-04-2010, 06:11 AM   #24
sorokod
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Re: YouTube Videos and Copyright Issues

Some food for thought regarding copyright and intellectual property issues, especially for a commercial video producing reader.

http://bemasc.net/wordpress/2010/02/...hat-with-h264/

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Old 03-04-2010, 09:50 AM   #25
sakumeikan
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Re: Discussion of Aiki Video

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hi Scott,

Youtube will immediately pull the video and warn the posted if the infringement is reported.

Toby Threadgill
Dear Mr Threadgill,
If part of a dvd is posted on Youtube I see no major problem.However if everyone starts posting snippets from any particular complete dvd which if the snippets are compiled together make a complete dvd, there is a problem.Sharing dvds samples can encourage people hopefully to invest money on the legitimate product.
On a personal note some of my own Personal dvds have been
copied onto Youtube without my consent.Fortunately the quality of production on You tube leaves much to be desired .Check out Hadronica and Chiba Sensei demos. on the Youtube website.
All the best , Joe Curran.
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