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Old 05-02-2006, 05:38 PM   #51
Keith R Lee
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Hi Ed,

even tenkan is a quick pivot a linear step, and your mental image is not of rotating 180 degrees but instantaneously switching your view opposite of what it was.
I'd defintely agree with that statement from a Yoshinkan point of view. For us, it's a 180 degree pivot, followed by a body shift.

Interesting ideas in the rest of your post.

Keith Lee
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:24 PM   #52
giriasis
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote:
Have to ask this...how is it that so many people don't "get" this question?
It's easy really, it's just seems so arbitrary. Also, I have never been a numbers person as they have always been way to abstract for me. I do much better with words, hence my choice of becoming an attorney instead of a physician.

So, I picked an arbitrary number -- 7.

Let's see if I can add "meaning" to. "7" looks like an upside down And it represents our stance in aikido. Since I usually start from hanmi and end in hanmi then "7" it is.

...yeah, that's it.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:26 PM   #53
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Hi Ed,

The original question by Jun was asking what your aikido most resembles. To me personally, I am thinking in lines therefore "1". My center line mostly. Or the line of irimi. Any motion can be broken down into a combination of linear vectors. IMO, the circularity that an observer may see in the interaction between nage and uke is more an illusion than anything else. They see a circle when in reality nage's center of gravity (and nage's mental image) is moving straight IN while their hands are moving straight up. Vertical and horizontal motions are combined with the good timing to toss uke. I first came to this realization some years ago in a seminar with one of Tohei Sensei's top students who had trained for over 15 years in Japan. He had just back to the States and a lot of his first hand knowledge about how Tohei Sensei thought about aikido really got me thinking along this direction. The stories and the instruction just got me to thinking differently and I certainly don't think this is original with me by a long shot. I have continued exploring this idea particularly since my experience training with the sword iaido makes it feel to be a very sensible approach to making my movements efficient.

even tenkan is a quick pivot a linear step, and your mental image is not of rotating 180 degrees but instantaneously switching your view opposite of what it was.

when nage tries to move in circles he makes mush and needs totally cooperative ukes to sustain the illusion of effective waza.

that's just my opinion.

but it's held up in my experience of teaching and training.

best,
Craig
Interesting comments at a very interesting time; We just had a weekend seminar with Ikeda Sensei here in Nashville. One of the things he talked about that stuck with me was that in teaching Aikido we do start with large flowing circular movements to learn how to properly move from our center, and maintain our center as we move. He then went on to say that this isn't very effective and not practical at all. Our goal is to constantly be refinining our technique, constantly making it smaller while learning to still stay connected.

Listening to what was said, watching and feeling his technique over the course of those 4 classes I can definitely see where Craig was coming from.

I still think the large flowing circles have their place, and know that I still have a use for them in my technique right now; However, hopefully as the years go by those circles will continue to get smaller until they resemble a much straighter line as well.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:34 PM   #54
siwilson
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Remember, a straight line is just the edge of a cirle with infinite radius!!!!!!

Osu!
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:42 AM   #55
Ed Stansfield
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
IMO, the circularity that an observer may see in the interaction between nage and uke is more an illusion than anything else. They see a circle when in reality nage's center of gravity (and nage's mental image) is moving straight IN while their hands are moving straight up. Vertical and horizontal motions are combined with the good timing to toss uke.
Thanks for your reply.

At first, I was just going to say "but what about, say, katate kosa tori kokyunage" but I think from your point of view that's probably a classic example of a move that looks circular but is actually straight. Then I started thinking about ki excercises and I suppose that for a supposedly circular art, there are a lot of "forward and backward" excercises.

But no circles? No part of a circle in ikkyo? or kotegaishi?

Still, you've given me lots to think about, particularly about my conceptions of particular techniques and movements.

Quote:
Craig also wrote:
it's held up in my experience of teaching and training
No walking round in circles for you then?

Thanks again.

Best,

Ed

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

Winston Churchill, 1930.
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:04 AM   #56
Hanna B
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

My aikido association to the number 8 is "eight directions". (I hav not voted, though.)
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:31 PM   #57
Lan Powers
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

My point of view favored the "birds eye" approach mentioned above. I voted for 9 since I have pictured the entry into irimi-nage with the full-circle being in a similar pattern.(Seen from above)
Could be 6 tho.......damn I am SOOOOO right handed.

I am intrigued by the *direction* of the thread -Pun intended, going into the linear fashion it has.
Lots of good points here. Refined motion is "usually" smaller, I just wish I had the fine motor skills to be in control to that point.
Still swooping about, you know.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:16 PM   #58
deepsoup
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Amelia Smith wrote:
Next, Jun can post this question in binary, and we'll see what happens!
There are 10 kinds of people here, those who understand binary and those who dont!
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:18 PM   #59
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Ed Stansfield wrote:
But no circles? No part of a circle in ikkyo? or kotegaishi?
of course this may or may not make sense depending on how you practice, but ikkyo is one of the best examples of what people think is circular really is not for nage! and trying to make it circular creates a lot of problems.

ikkyo - is IMNSHO - simply shomenuchi suburi (more accurately kirioroshi). As an example - Irimi version of katatekosadori -
raise your sword with a feeling of extending to infinity - step forward - then cut down. Tenkan version- raise your sword - step forward - pivot - then cut down. Any other motion in the techniques is secondary to this main idea. Understanding the nuances and because there is a difference between simple and easy is what keeps you coming back to practice. Holding to this idea up-down combined in with moving forward in motion is also a challenge.
Done right this way though makes it pretty much unstoppable.
And you can spring off in a multitude of different ways just from this simple idea.

Kotegaeshi was renamed by Koichi Tohei Sensei as koteoroshi not because he changed what he was doing but because he decided it was a more apt description of what he was doing. The name reinforces the idea that this technique is a downward motion not a twisting motion.

Quote:
Still, you've given me lots to think about, particularly about my conceptions of particular techniques and movements.
hey great, I hope it opens some doors for you in your training.
if it does, come back and teach me something.

Quote:
No walking round in circles for you then?
Thanks again.
Best,
Ed
Always important to distinquish exercies from your Aikido!

Plenty of exercises with circles in them so sure I may have students walk around in circles in various exercises to get a particular point across like pivoting forward rather than retreating. But when it comes to where I eventually want them to go with it, it is not to "do" or "make" circles. That's the danger of exercises, sometimes you unintentionally teach something you didn't want to.

best,
Craig

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Old 05-03-2006, 03:22 PM   #60
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Michael O'Brien wrote:
Listening to what was said, watching and feeling his technique over the course of those 4 classes I can definitely see where Craig was coming from.
and having had the good fortune to have Ikeda Sensei as a seminar practice partner , I can definitely believe it !

best,
Craig

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Old 05-03-2006, 03:26 PM   #61
siwilson
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
There are 10 kinds of people here, those who understand binary and those who dont!
LOL!

Oops! I just identified that I belong to 00000001 of those 00000010 groups!

Byte me!


Osu!
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:27 PM   #62
siwilson
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Craig,

By your definition Aikido is not linear - it is vectored!

A curve is vectored!

Osu!
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Old 05-03-2006, 04:38 PM   #63
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Craig,

By your definition Aikido is not linear - it is vectored!

A curve is vectored!

well I would quibble with your sloppy use of the term Aikido.

any motion can be decomposed into three orthogonal vectors.

add to that, nage and uke is a system of two multijointed bodies in motion.

the question might be, while the over all motion of this complex system might appear to be curved, is it more productive for nage to be thinking about that effect or to be focused on learning to at the right time to drop or raise an arm or step forward or backward in a particular direction, or move a joint ?

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Old 05-03-2006, 04:58 PM   #64
siwilson
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
well I would quibble with your sloppy use of the term Aikido.
Sloppy? OK!?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
any motion can be decomposed into three orthogonal vectors.
Four actually, but go on.

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
add to that, nage and uke is a system of two multijointed bodies in motion.
U-huh!

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
the question might be, while the over all motion of this complex system might appear to be curved, is it more productive for nage to be thinking about that effect or to be focused on learning to at the right time to drop or raise an arm or step forward or backward in a particular direction, or move a joint ?
No the over all motion is curved. Have you ever heard of over analysing? And I am an Engineer that has worked in Reverse Engineering and Research, and have been guilty of over analysing many times, so I talk from experience. Sometimes you have to look at what things are, not what makes them up, as sometimes the detail is wrong and confusing and contradicts the facts!

Example: I fly from London to New York, then I fly back again. What is my mean velocity?

Answer: Zero!

See the answer to that level of detail tells you nothing.


Osu!
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Old 05-04-2006, 01:58 PM   #65
billybob
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

I voted three, assuming the most conventional interpretation that 1-10 represents skill level, 1 being the least, even though 10 was not a choice. I express limited skill.

I hope some day to vote zero - zero expresses the state of a perfectly balanced universe. If you viewed a film of my multiple opponent portion from my recent nikyu test you might say that my vote of "3" was over generous!

dave
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Old 05-04-2006, 02:31 PM   #66
ze do telhado
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

8...happo giri.... katate hachi no ji gaeshi...everybody thinking about numbers and not about aikido
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:48 PM   #67
Lucy Smith
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
or is this lack of manners by you and Lucy just a reflection of your teachers ?

Hold it here Mr.. A reflection of my teacher? You mean my teacher lacks manners? You mean I lack manners? In case you are not informed, to ask "what are you smoking?" is actually a joke, meaning something like "are you crazy?". You wouldn't say a person who asks you "are you crazy?" lacks manners, would you?
I've been reading all you wrote after that, and I have come to the conclusion that you are the one who lacks manners, Mr Hocker. I will, or course, never again try to make a joke with you, for it seems you are defensive and not willing to have a laugh.
As to what Si Wilson wrote, I agree completely.

Regards, blah blah mannered stuff,
Miss. Lucy Smith.
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:26 PM   #68
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Lucy Smith wrote:
You wouldn't say a person who asks you "are you crazy?" lacks manners, would you?
Lucy, for what it's worth, I would. Keep in mind that you are talking with people from all over the world, and not everybody has the same customs that you and your friends might have.

I think you were just honestly surprised by Craig's statement about aikido being linear, but the way you expressed it came across as rather...aggressive?

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:51 PM   #69
siwilson
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
Lucy, for what it's worth, I would. Keep in mind that you are talking with people from all over the world, and not everybody has the same customs that you and your friends might have.

I think you were just honestly surprised by Craig's statement about aikido being linear, but the way you expressed it came across as rather...aggressive?

kvaak
Pauliina
What is the problem? Craig, Lucy and I are all from Western Culture - North America, South America and Europe. Not that much difference!

Hey, everyone need to lighten up!


Osu!
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Old 05-05-2006, 05:07 AM   #70
billybob
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

The gentlemen made a statement that runs contrary to conventional wisdom - "Aikido is not a circular art." People expressed wonderment and surprise, and asked for clarification in a perhaps 'prodding' manner. Seems like training to me.

Years and years ago I was training with a woman who kept punching me! I thought she was being a jerk. I raised my hand to warn her to stop. A Very high ranking instructor escorted me off the mat, rather brusquely I might add. It turns out that punching in the ribs is aiki training for a poor tenkan, not a passive aggressive game as I perceived. Thank goodness the instructor was merely brusque with my unenlightened self, as the woman was his wife!

My favorite philosopher had the following to say about lines and circles and such:

Quote:
William James (1906)SOME YEARS AGO, being with a camping party in the mountains, I returned from a solitary ramble to find every one engaged in a ferocious metaphysical dispute. The corpus of the dispute was a squirrel -- a live squirrel supposed to be clinging to one side of a tree-trunk; while over against the tree's opposite side a human being was imagined to stand. This human witness tries to get sight of the squirrel by moving rapidly round the tree, but no matter how fast he goes, the squirrel moves as fast in the opposite direction, and always keeps the tree between himself and the man, so that never a glimpse of him is caught. The resultant metaphysical problem now is this: Does the man go round the squirrel or not? He goes round the tree, sure enough, and the squirrel is on the tree; but does he go round the squirrel? In the unlimited leisure of the wilderness, discussion had been worn threadbare. Every one had taken sides, and was obstinate; and the numbers on both sides were even. Each side, when I appeared therefore appealed to me to make it a majority. Mindful of the scholastic adage that whenever you meet a contradiction you must make a distinction, I immediately sought and found one, as follows: "Which party is right," I said, "depends on what you practically mean by ‘going round' the squirrel. If you mean passing from the north of him to the east, then to the south, then to the west, and then to the north of him again, obviously the man does go round him, for he occupies these successive positions. But if on the contrary you mean being first in front of him, then on the right of him, then behind him, then on his left, and finally in front again, it is quite as obvious that the man fails to go round him, for by the compensating movements the squirrel makes, he keeps his belly turned towards the man all the time, and his back turned away. Make the distinction, and there is no occasion for any farther dispute. You are both right and both wrong according as you conceive the verb ‘to go round' in one practical fashion or the other."
I hope I'm not fanning the fire; just discussing aikido, life, and my admittedly bizarre take on the latter.

dave

Last edited by billybob : 05-05-2006 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 05-05-2006, 06:14 AM   #71
Mark Freeman
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
I hope I'm not fanning the fire; just discussing aikido, life, and my admittedly bizarre take on the latter.
Nothing wrong with a bizarre take on life David

My first aikido teacher once said "if there is no paradox there is no truth"
He may or may not be right

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-07-2006, 09:59 PM   #72
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
What is the problem? Craig, Lucy and I are all from Western Culture - North America, South America and Europe. Not that much difference!

Hey, everyone need to lighten up!


In Texas,
oh beloved Bush Country,
them is shooting words !

yeeha!

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Old 05-07-2006, 10:11 PM   #73
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Lucy Smith wrote:
to ask "what are you smoking?" is actually a joke, meaning something like "are you crazy?".

ok, think about it for a moment

in the real world,
go up to the head teacher of another school who has just stated some comments from their experience of aikido in a public forum and say that exact phrase to their face.
then say... "oh, I was just joking!"

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Old 05-07-2006, 10:30 PM   #74
kironin
 
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

Quote:
Si Wilson wrote:
Four actually, but go on.
again with the sloppy thinking! :-)

Quote:
No the over all motion is curved. Have you ever heard of over analysing? And I am an Engineer that has worked in Reverse Engineering and Research, and have been guilty of over analysing many times, so I talk from experience. Sometimes you have to look at what things are, not what makes them up, as sometimes the detail is wrong and confusing and contradicts the facts!
And I am a scientist, and overanalyzing is our business!
in the real world, it's all in the details.

Your last sentence makes no sense.
if nage does not have a clear idea what details are important about the motions they make, it doesn't matter a damn about
what the observer sees in the overall motion.

Quote:
Example: I fly from London to New York, then I fly back again. What is my mean velocity?
Answer: Zero!
See the answer to that level of detail tells you nothing.
Exactly, you have proved my point!


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Old 05-11-2006, 12:45 PM   #75
Lucy Smith
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Re: Poll: What numeral do you think your aikido most resembles?

What point exactly?

Yours Sincerely,
Miss. Lucy Smith.
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