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Old 05-07-2006, 06:32 PM   #26
billybob
 
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Kevin,

Thanks.

Can you or anyone clarify the attack mentioned in the original post?

david
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Old 05-08-2006, 02:55 PM   #27
billybob
 
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Pardon the double post.

At the risk of sounding dumb - were you guys having me on, or do you really think being grabbed around the middle (whatever the Japanese is for it) is a benign attack?

dave
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Old 05-08-2006, 03:27 PM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

I wouldn't use the word benign.

It is probably semantics, but I break things down a little differently.

A clinch in itself is a controlling technique to achieve dominance. I separate it from an attack as it's main role is to control.

An attack would be a strike with object or hand, kick, choke, gouge, knife or other object with the intent to slice, cut, stab.

In principle you must acheive some form of dominance in order to launch an successful attack. An effective attack cannot be acheived without dominance, so in that respect they are linked and hence, it is not benign necesssarily.

In aikido, we typically control dominance through ma'ai or distance using irimi/tenkan for the basis to move and to counter/establish dominance.

In BJJ and many MMA, you use the same thing, cept you typically assume Ma'ai/distance is much closer, hence the clinch. Same concepts and principles apply, you just have to use your center in much smaller and different ways to acheive/regain dominance.

Simply two different fighting ranges, that is all.
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Old 05-08-2006, 03:47 PM   #29
billybob
 
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Kevin,

Thank you.

I appreciate the 'staying out of trouble' approach. But when the wrestler grabs you around the middle -he really can displace your spine, break your ribs and/or neck. From the behind grab the move is very simple - one leans backward, arches, and falls - guiding all the energy into uke's head and breaking his neck - wrestler's call this a 'souffle' in the states - and they usually don't guide the energy through the head, but through the shoulders.

One of the 'chokes' we learned was not really about asphyxiation. Using the scissors pressure I described we displaced the neck vertebrae of the opponent - a submission hold, lethal if you didn't ease up - I always eased up.

I know these techniques will kill because it is implied in the technique - axiomatically if you like, even if not carried through. I've never killed anyone, not with hands, gun, knife, or automobile. But I know these things can kill.

I respectfully submit I'm surprised that you feel tearing the flesh of an attacker's face is not 'practical'. What is more practical than that if faced with someone trying to kill you?

dave
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Old 05-08-2006, 05:00 PM   #30
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:

I respectfully submit I'm surprised that you feel tearing the flesh of an attacker's face is not 'practical'. What is more practical than that if faced with someone trying to kill you?dave
Break them, or switch them off. In other words snap a joint or choke then to unconsciousness "Flesh tearing" -even if you can manage it (and that is an if) will not necessarily stop a motivated attacker.

The suplex is something to be concerned about absolutely. But done from behind usually. From in front if a wrestler grabs you - pressure on the ribs is the least of your troubles. You're about to be rudely thrown to the ground and pounded on which is the real danger.

Dave you seen to think we are objecting because we hold your solutions to be excessively brutal or violent. Not at all. we are simply saying there are more reliable responses to then attacks.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-08-2006, 11:09 PM   #31
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Dave,

It is called a "supplex" not a souffle. If we are talking about the same thing, which from your description, sounds like we are. Souffle is french word for an egg dish typically.

Anyway, supplexes are allowed in wrestling. Why? because they don't really hurt anyone, or the chance for injury is minimal. One of my students was supplexed by a All Air Force Wrestler in a submission tournament the other day in which there was "no rules" other than striking or kicking. No one was ever worried about him breaking his neck.

Oh we did disallow twisting ankle/knee locks and neck cranks in the beginners categories.

I point this out, because most grappling matches also try to eliminate that which is truly dangerous to participants for submissions.

"the squeeze around the middle" was not eliminated.

Can it happen? No question about it. Often....no. More the result of a bad position or accident rather than intent.

This weekend I submitted a guy with an eziekel choke. I saw Rear Naked chokes, I was submitted by an Omaplata, and an Arm bar...out of about 40 fights, I never saw anyone submit from a squeeze from a bear hug, or risk having their neck broken....oh yea...we also allowed slamming. You should see my face where I was slammed with elbows. Never once was I worried about my neck.

Tearing flesh is a waste of time. It pisses guys off and keeps you occupied doing something that is not immoblizing or dominating. Pressure points and eye gouges and vital areas are all good set ups to distract your opponent in a real fight...but they are not means to an end, simply a distractor to divert attention to your true attack. They can buy time possibly.

Skilled guys though will avoid them many times. I do, I am trying to control the emotional state of my opponent and mostly want him to calm down, relax, and not thrash about. Poking someone in the eye can increase his emotional state and give him an adrenalin dump which may not work in your favor.


The Gun analogy, not the same. Why? we have documented proof from the examples of others that guns, knifes, etc work if applied on a fully non-compliant person on a fairly predictable and consistent basis. I have proof that certain grappling techniques work on a fully non-compliant person as I have done them.

I can only tell you that I have never seen what you describe be effective on a predictable and consistent level.

I or "we" are not saying it is not possible. Simply that it is not commonly done or been proven to be repeatable to a degree that would warrant teaching to the common person. Paradiqms are broken everyday! It is quite possible that you are correct and that I am missing out of something.

The only thing I could tell you is to go to a submission fighting/grappling tournament and start submitting people with this move...they will tap once the pressure becomes too much. After a few wins, people will start to notice.

If any technique appears too dangerous...they will disallow it.

Good luck!
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Old 05-08-2006, 11:47 PM   #32
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Quote:
. Pressure points and eye gouges and vital areas are all good set ups to distract your opponent in a real fight...but they are not means to an end, simply a distractor to divert attention to your true attack. They can buy time possibly.
I'm with you on pressure points, I've never had anyone use them on me effectively. On the topic of eye gouges I don't know about the rate of effectiveness myself as I don't like causing people permanent injury but my friend was eye gouged in a fight once and in his words it was all over. This guy seriously wanted his eyes. He was lucky the police got to the scene and got the other guy off him.

John Perkins of Attack Proof is also a advocate of eye gouges as aself defense but he says that you've got to be fully ready to take their eyes, not just poke them as a time buyer, but really go for it like a savage.

There's a guy over here in Australia who founds his whole art on rips, tears and gouges to the face. It's not my thing, but he reckons it's highly effective against motivated attackers. His focus isn't on "finishing" someone though as in getting away.
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Old 05-09-2006, 08:16 AM   #33
billybob
 
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Johan,

Thanks. I knew someone out there would get what I was talking about. There is a difference between MMA - which are way too rough for me thanks!, and being savaged suddenly in the dark.

Incidentally, if you're in a bear hug, you are lucky to have one hand free, and it can't reach far.....how do you survive? Take the eye and run for all you're worth. I hate that I am so easily able to think this way - but I've been the one in the dark.

The sun is up now though, and I am going to think about irimi tenkan.

dave
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Old 05-09-2006, 12:22 PM   #34
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Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Dave,


The only thing I could tell you is to go to a submission fighting/grappling tournament and start submitting people with this move...they will tap once the pressure becomes too much. After a few wins, people will start to notice.

If any technique appears too dangerous...they will disallow it.

Good luck!

Not that it is the same thing as a bear hug, but the body triangle (Do-jime) is a legit move and is banned in judo competition (You can do it, but you can not apply preasure). I think it is legal in bjj competition (i've never seen it explicitly banned). I have been tapped by a body triangle while rolling, however this is done with the legs and not the arms. Its really simple, triangle the legs around the chest and as they exhale you squeeze it in a little tighter. My ribs hurt for about a week after getting tapped that way. Of course this is different then a clinch attack/bear hug (I wouldnt' call a bear hug a clinch, but that is just me).
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