Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-27-2006, 12:59 PM   #1
Williamross77
 
Williamross77's Avatar
Dojo: aikido of shreveport
Location: Shreveport, Lousiana
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 146
United_States
Offline
Jujitsu Clinch attack.

In video footage you see many of OSensei's attackers aim to clinch him like modern day groung fighters, and you always see him flatten them with KI extention into the ground. Yet I have never incounetered a name for this attack in the Aiki nomenclature nor is it tought as far as i can surmise in my experience. In my school we practice against this with Kaiten nage and Kokyu nages as well as HijiGaruma ( cradel pin). But not the simple Otoshi I see O'Sensei performing. any comments.

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2006, 01:00 PM   #2
Williamross77
 
Williamross77's Avatar
Dojo: aikido of shreveport
Location: Shreveport, Lousiana
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 146
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Encountered among my spelling mistakes...

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2006, 06:15 PM   #3
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

A link to said video footage would help...

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2006, 10:43 PM   #4
Lucy Smith
Dojo: Samurai Dojo
Location: Montevideo
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 138
Uruguay
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
A link to said video footage would help...
Yeah.

Where did u get O'Sensei's videos???
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 01:53 AM   #5
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,031
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Quote:
Lucy Smith wrote:
Yeah.

Where did u get O'Sensei's videos???
Aikido Journal, there used to be 6 of them, although I believe they have been transferred to DVD now.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog...php?category=7

rgds
Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 08:48 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,803
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Watch the UFC Chuck Lidell and his takedown defense. He's very Aiki. Lets attacker extend and then step out of the way.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 11:48 AM   #7
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

as the principles of aikido or universal in nature...they apply in every properly executed UFC technique!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 11:49 AM   #8
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Cool Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

that is the physical principles of aikido...not necessarily the philosophical or spiritual. There is a distinction.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 02:16 PM   #9
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

But whose definition of "philosophical" or "spiritual" are we going by? That's also going to be a distinction . . .
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2006, 04:54 PM   #10
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Agreed. I think though, that there are "generally accepted" principles of aikido. i.e. resolving conflict with the least force possible, the whole harmony thing etc...

That would be an interesting thread though. "what are the Generally accepted principles of aikido?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2006, 12:32 PM   #11
Williamross77
 
Williamross77's Avatar
Dojo: aikido of shreveport
Location: Shreveport, Lousiana
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 146
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Thanks everyone but i think you missed my question.
What is the name of the Attack in Japanese for a Clinch to the center, I call it Kata-Aiki-Tori for now, but it never was taught further it seams. Yes I can defend against it with Kaiten nage Like Liddel but i am not as big so it is a little more tenkan. I need a name. I have students who were afraid of this attack so i showed them the ki process for Maai and tenkan as well as specific techniques, but to name the attack is where i need the help, Domo...

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2006, 03:08 PM   #12
Keith R Lee
Location: Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

I know Kevin and I have talked about it in another thread, but I, and the vast majority of people who train in full resistance, "live" envivronments, maintain that you're got three "high-percentage" options against a shoot: sprawl, whizzer, and knees to the head (in descending order of effectiveness). Not saying that something else couldn't work, but that everything else is of such low percentage that it's not worth the bother. There's no real need to re-invent the wheel when people outside of Japanese budo have been dealing with this type of attack for thousands of years and they all came to the same conclusion: sprawl or whizzer. With the advent of MMA we can add knees to the head (which was really stolen from Muay Thai).

I'm not saying that you couldn't do something else, and that it might work on someone. However, problems generally seem to arise in a "live" environment when anything other than three techniques I described are applied.

Also for the record, as it kinda bothers me, when a figher/wrestler/sambo/BJJ/judo guy shoots an arm underneath their opponent's arm, it's an underhook, not kaitenage. I know it looks similar, but the two are really very different in terms of body movement and underlying principles.

Keith Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2006, 06:58 PM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Bill sorry to evade your question. I am not sure as I cannot see what you are talking about. I don't believe I have practiced anything like that in my aikido training. If I am picturing it correctly, I believe most aikido schools might avoid this type of attack if it is a two handed attack moving into a clinch. I don't think the dynamic I am picturing in my head moving through closing the distance with a two handed attack works.

Shoots, closing the distance to the clinch the like are based on timing and positioning. The way it is commonly practiced assumes away weapons and requires nage to be "immobile" at the time of the "lock up". In my mind, this does not convey the principles of aikido.

I am always amazed in my classes when I do grab a weapon how much that changes the dynamic of the attack. Irimi and tenkan become much more relevant and important. Guys don't indiscriminately attack or shoot.

A bunch of "hip throw" set ups come to mind. The set up for a hip throw can be a single of double underarm hook. If it is two handed in nature, the word, the word ryote may come into play.

How exactly are you attacking again? Two hands straight in, shomen, yokomen? Attacks are pretty basic actually.

I personally distingush things. Shooting, and clinching are NOT attacks. Neither is a wrist grab. They are SET UPS for attacks, or apart of the process, but they are not the attack. An Attack would be Shomen, Yokomen, Knife, Rear Naked Choke, Kick, Punch...something that has the ability to kill, hurt or disable. Shooting, clinching, irimi, tenkan are all movements.

Might help to look at your "attack" more closely and see what is going on. Irimi, Tenkan, then a grab, strike, off balancing...or what not. Then you can put it all back together and figure out how to name it, or maybe isolate the actual attack from the whole.

Hope this helps some!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2006, 07:20 PM   #14
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Yes, Bill, show us what you're talking about... also, I think having and wanting a "name" for such a "technique" is about as far from "aikido" as you can get. Why not describe the principles involved, rather than treat it as a form of response to a specific type of movement?

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2006, 03:09 PM   #15
Williamross77
 
Williamross77's Avatar
Dojo: aikido of shreveport
Location: Shreveport, Lousiana
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 146
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

yes it is a movement to a set up and not the specific attack. In aikido we often simulate it with the ushiro tekubi tori movement but it is close to what in judo is called the ura nage ( yes back throw), but the position is the "shikaku", but any one who has watched the videos can see what i mean, even 6 at one time on several occations. like i said i usually use MAai principle then kaiten nage or an otoshi movment to try to break the hold. well thanks any way

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2006, 03:10 PM   #16
Williamross77
 
Williamross77's Avatar
Dojo: aikido of shreveport
Location: Shreveport, Lousiana
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 146
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

by videos i mean O Sensei's

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2006, 04:27 PM   #17
billybob
 
billybob's Avatar
Dojo: Academy of Warrior Spirit
Location: tampa
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 440
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Hi,

I've wrestled, done judo, jujitsu and aikido, and i'm confused. by 'clinch' do you mean being behind nage and grabbing them around the middle? or do you mean standing in front and grabbing them around the middle?

I disagree that these are not attacks: from behind squeeze until a rib penetrates the liver. from the front lift and drop opponent on head pushing through and breaking the neck. since i'm on this nasty theme - one defense from the front attack is to rip the attacker's ear off.

in harmony - dave
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2006, 08:28 PM   #18
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Hi David
Can you quantify for me how many times you've
a) punctured people's livers with their rib
b) broken peoples neck
c) ripped an ear off.

If the answer to any of these questions is zero - how do you know it works?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 01:34 PM   #19
billybob
 
billybob's Avatar
Dojo: Academy of Warrior Spirit
Location: tampa
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 440
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Michael,

My response deserves a serious question from a serious student:

I know they work for the same reason we know any techniques work. We try them, or an approximation.

Fortunately for me, when my jujitsu instructor squeezed from behind, and i felt my ribs leaving their normal place, and before i stopped breathing, i tapped out - ribs puncture organs frequently in crushing accidents. I will change the frontal attack from breaking neck to something more direct - displacing the lumbar spine - one must tap out quickly as the pain gets excessive if its done right.

My instructor scissored his wrists to apply tremendous pressure to my ribs or spine, the same way a choke works - not by main force, but by leverage in the hands and wrists, and torquing of the whole body.

Many koshi techniques were originally lethal - throw uke on face and use body weight to break neck. As for the ear - try it. Pull on your own ear. How much force would it take to tear it from your head, or to tear your mouth at the corner?

Jujitsu is nasty stuff. If I seem crazy, or full of crap, just ignore me. I'm really trying to think about practical survival, which is what 'jujitsu' means to me - it is the brutal root form of aikido and judo.

dave

PS. - what do you mean by 'clinch'? still confused.

Last edited by billybob : 05-07-2006 at 01:36 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 01:48 PM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Sorry David, I am with Michael on this one.

I don't know the physics behind all this, but I find it highly unlikely that you'd find someone strong enough to exert enough pounds per square inch to crush someone enough to puncture a liver with a rib!

Dropping someone on their neck...maybe, it happens, but again you must control quite a bit to make that happen, usually is the result of chance more than actual intent.

Ripping an ear off. No, you see the neck moves with the head so it absorbs the pulling you are doing, unless you have imobilized the head/hips of the individual, which at that point, you have dominance, so you would be better at doing something else at that point that is much more effective than tugging on his ear and pissing him off. Not a tactically sound strategy in my book.

No doubt your instructor has inflicted pain on you from various holds etc. They are painful if you get things positioned just the way you like them.

If you are really honestly thinking of practical survival, you don't worry about these types of things.

You attempt to control the situation, acheive dominance, and remove yourself from the situation as quickly as possible.

The reason you practice things like clinching and the rear naked choke is that they do work and have been proven. Why sit there and try and break someones neck or puncture their liver if you can choke them unconscious in about 30 seconds or less?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 02:09 PM   #21
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

thanks for the support Kevin :-)

Dave one of the big problems I see in traditional arts is acceptance of what we are told without critical thought. We can widen the critereia beyond "what have you expereinced" to "has anyone you personally know experienced it" if you like.
Generally speaking we are told this stuff by instructors we respect and take it on face value. Which means when we feel some discomfort we assume that's a precursor to the devestating damage we've been told about. But upon further investigation (or even rational thought) we discover that our instructors haven't experienced it either. They took it on face value from someone they respected who probably never experienced and on it goes. Sometimes we're told they know someone who has but it turns out that no, that person knows someone else who has done it. Sound familiar? This is the stuff urban legends are made of.

You see I know chokes work because I've put people to sleep with them. I've never broken an arm or dislocated a shoulder but I know those particular techniques work because I've seen countless clips of them doing exactly that and spoken with many people who have done it themselves - first hand.

I hope you weren't implying my response wasn't serious, or that I am not a serious student. I take my study of martial arts very seriously which is why I've started to take a sceptics approach to many things that are not validated. And I have to say that I'd be surprised if a clinch could generate the same amount of force as a car accident to puncture a liver. As Kevin says, if the stuff you're talking about is even theoretically possibly, I believe it is so low percentage you're better off training other responses.

MTCW

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 03:02 PM   #22
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

This may not be the best or most direct example...but it falls in the same line of "cognitive dissonance theory". I think Martial arts in general suffer from this phenomenon.

Check out the following link for more info on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 03:23 PM   #23
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

I agree that itis likely some form of cognitive dissonance that makes us suspend our scepticism (and I'm not for a moment going to pretend I've been immune to the phenomenum )

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 04:30 PM   #24
billybob
 
billybob's Avatar
Dojo: Academy of Warrior Spirit
Location: tampa
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 440
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Michael and Kevin,

I respect you both and my being 'tongue in cheek' about violence shoule be taken at face value. No slight was intended.

Skepticism is good, doubt is fertile ground.

Bear hug - Grip uke from behind. Interlock hands, not fingers. Use coordinated scissors action with wrists - focus energy on only one rib - at this point the hug is not gently placed around the middle but pulls the ribs angular to their normal (breathing) direction of travel. Uke can not resist being pulled off their feet as you rock their balance backwards - from here the neck break is possible.

Ripping an ear off is simply a matter of exceeding the elastic capacity of the tissue. I'll let this argument go in favor of suggesting poking an index finger in an eye.

Any skepticism on the effectiveness of that?



dave
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2006, 05:45 PM   #25
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Jujitsu Clinch attack.

Nope Michael, nobody is immune from it!

No problem David. You are free to believe what you want to believe! I respect that for sure!

I simply tend to base my training and beliefs on things that I know work and have been proven to be effective.

I am not saying that what you propose is not possible, it is possible. Just, not what I or Michael believe are a "high percentage" enough to be effective to be worth spending time on. That is all.

It is possible to put a hole in the bullseye of a target blindfolded, but you wouldn't want to do that if you had a choice or another way of doing it if your life depended on it.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No Touch Throws pezalinski Techniques 237 04-14-2011 11:17 AM
Punishing Uke David Orange Training 46 06-23-2006 08:26 AM
"Tricky" energy and the committed attack Stanley Archacki Training 8 06-08-2006 08:20 AM
The Paradox Of Committed attack Chris Birke General 28 04-13-2004 07:58 PM
Expanding Aikido pillars/ more Jujitsu Bruce Baker General 27 06-27-2002 10:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:20 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate