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Old 06-02-2006, 08:32 AM   #476
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Frankly, I think your perception that some dojo's are teaching all the things we're talking about is wrong. Of course, I'm always willing to go look.... but I would be surprised (pleasantly) if I found a dojo that used anything more than a few bits and pieces but where people still use their shoulders for most movement. That's my honest opinion. Of course, I realize that a lot of people with a few bits and pieces aren't going to change their own perceptions about the extent of what they know, but the problem with not commenting about it is that they'll continue on with surety, teaching beginners the "real stuff", which is usually quite wrong.
I only say what I say from my own personal experience, and as I said I have no experience outside my own teachers aikido. I have lost count of the number of ki exercises that I have been shown, so not just the occasional one ore two. So I may be wrong in supposing that 'all' the things we are talking about are being taught, but the huge variety of exercises we do must cover most of them.
A few bits and pieces are not what I know, my practice is full of them all the time as mentioned above. I can't comment on other teachers and their skills or 'lack of'. The federation I practice with has dojo's all over the UK and branches in about 6 or 7 different countries, so there are 'some' dojo's practicing 'many' of the skills being talked about.
That doesn't mean that all the teachers have mastered the skills equally, I practice with some who are a similar grade to me and they seem to 'have not fully grasped' the concepts that have been talked about here. But there are plenty that have.

Thanks Mike, for your response and for keeping this discussion lively and challenging. As George mentioned in an earlier post, this is an important issue in the aikido world, and one that cannot be just brushed under the tatami.

Regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:35 AM   #477
MM
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Well, while I understand what you're saying, and would agree to some extent, I do believe Gozo Shioda when he said that training in the basics of yoshinkan was training in kokyu ryoku. **If** that is true, then I shouldn't find **too** much trouble using this new method of moving in that framework.

That's a big if...but for now, it's the best thing I've got going, so I'll plug through it. I'm willing for it to take time...I'm willing to go back to practicing the basics, I'm willing to do the waza and basics slowly.

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron!
In my current training environment, this hits close to home for me. If you are training in the basics of yoshinkan, then you are training in kokyu ryoku. I can understand that. But, the problem arises in the "training" in the basics. We don't have Shioda around anymore to correct us if we're not "training" in the basics the correct way. How do we know if we're going at it the right way?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:42 AM   #478
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
A few bits and pieces are not what I know, my practice is full of them all the time as mentioned above. I can't comment on other teachers and their skills or 'lack of'. The federation I practice with has dojo's all over the UK and branches in about 6 or 7 different countries, so there are 'some' dojo's practicing 'many' of the skills being talked about.
Well maybe so, Mark. I would enjoy being caught underestimating something for once instead of overestimating. But take the discussion on Aikido Journal, as an example. It appears, belatedly, like we missed O-Sensei's ability to store and release power (Ellis Amdur picked up on it first, to give him his due). Would you say that you understand how to store and release power, also?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:53 AM   #479
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Agreed. What I was referring to, was the difficulty in integrating it into your BU. It is, as you have said, difficult, even under the best of circumstances, which not all of us have. In my opinion, persevering even in the face of that difficulty, is as much BU and Do as anything else. Even understanding that we're not talking about fighting here.

Best,
Ron (fall 7 times, rise 8)

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Not to be persnickety, Ron, but generally speaking the ki/kokyu *powers*, abilities, skills, etc., are not really the Bu... they're the quasi-religious (in O-Sensei's and a lot of traditional beliefs) body skills that are the core of the true Bu. Notice that even though Tohei rejected the Shinto-religious connotations that O-Sensei perceived, he himself lapsed into quasi-religious maunderings about cosmology/religion himself. It's better, IMO, to think of these skills as being within the category of "martial qigongs"... not quite the martial stuff itself.

Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-02-2006, 09:23 AM   #480
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Hi Ron!
In my current training environment, this hits close to home for me. If you are training in the basics of yoshinkan, then you are training in kokyu ryoku. I can understand that. But, the problem arises in the "training" in the basics. We don't have Shioda around anymore to correct us if we're not "training" in the basics the correct way. How do we know if we're going at it the right way?

Thanks,
Mark
Hi Mark,
Well, I'm using a many pronged approach.

1) I try to get out to see what else is going on, and if I'm making progess in different environments with this material. That's why I went to see Abe Sensei, why I paid close attention to what Inoue Sensei was doing when he was here, why I train with the local AKI group when I can.

2) I find uke that can out muscle me. People who are heavier, stronger, and preferrably just as well trained. Then I check to see how much shoulder and arm muscle I put into my waza when I train with them.

3) I try to REALLY LISTEN HARD when my instructor tells me something or shows me something directly. I know it's a gamble until I've really felt the full scope of what Mike and Dan describe, but I do believe, based on what my body feels from my instructor's waza, that he does do at least a portion of these things. And he has said things to me that so far, line up with the picture I have now of some of these skills.

4) In all my training, yoga, solo, basic movements, basic movements with partner, basic waza, etc., I'm really working hard to get the power from the front of my shoulders out of the waza entirely. I've found that that shifts the power for the waza to the center of the shoulder blades and the hips / koshi / tan tien areas.

It's not easy...Along with all of this I'm also trying to teach my body how to work hard in a relaxed state. For me, that is SOOOO hard.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-02-2006, 09:44 AM   #481
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I like the way you are training Ron...that too is how I am trying to train. Most people would not recognize what I am doing as aikido...I tend to think of my training more as BUDO right now, I use traditional training aikido as well, but I think there are other things that you can do to augment as you say.
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Old 06-02-2006, 09:57 AM   #482
Michael Mackenzie
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's better, IMO, to think of these skills as being within the category of "martial qigongs"... not quite the martial stuff itself.
Doesn't all this stuff fall within the realm of jibenggong, or "foundation exercises"?

I've recently left aikido to focus soley on xingyi - yiquan. The emphasis here seems to be first and always on jibengong, with the "martial aspect" coming in second.

In yiquan this translates to a ton of standing and basic shili and mocabu. In xingyi this also translates to a ton of standing and getting very intimate with piquan.

I haven't done serious applications in months but it has become quite evident that a lot of what I was doing prior was in a completely different realm than what I'm doing now...

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:40 AM   #483
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Michael Mackenzie wrote:
In yiquan this translates to a ton of standing and basic shili and mocabu. In xingyi this also translates to a ton of standing and getting very intimate with piquan.
Might I inquire what 'n tarnation chili, mocabu, and piquan are?
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:40 AM   #484
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Michael Mackenzie wrote:
Doesn't all this stuff fall within the realm of jibenggong, or "foundation exercises"?
Well, I see what you're saying, but it's a semantics debate in a way. You learn the foundation movements correctly (hopefully) doing the jinbengong, but if you still do them to exercise your "ki", the same jingengong would be considered a form of qigong. So the Aiki-Taiso, for instance, could rightfully be called jingengong (IF they're done with ki-parameters backing all the movments) or qigongs. Hmmmm, if someone is doing a jo kata and knows how to keep the ki/kokyu power backing every single increment of the movement, then the kata itself could be considered a qigong. Whatever.... just do it.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:49 AM   #485
Michael Mackenzie
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Nicholas Pagnucco wrote:
Might I inquire what 'n tarnation chili, mocabu, and piquan are?
Sorry,

Shili are slow "arm" movements that utilise the whole body. Mocabu is "footwork" that also uses the whole body and may also utilise the "arm" movements from shili. Piquan is the first fist of xingyi. One learns this usually after learning standing and some other foundation exercises. However, using Mike's example, it is also in itself foundation training.

Best,

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:00 AM   #486
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Michael Mackenzie wrote:
Shili are slow "arm" movements that utilise the whole body. Mocabu is "footwork" that also uses the whole body and may also utilise the "arm" movements from shili. Piquan is the first fist of xingyi. One learns this usually after learning standing and some other foundation exercises. However, using Mike's example, it is also in itself foundation training.
Hi Mike:

Remember last year when I asked if any of the "name" Aikido teachers who were deshi of Ueshiba taught any "standing" exercises? It turns out that some of them actually do (we'll leave aside the qustion of whether the actual stuff you're supposed to do in the standings is taught). So for all practical purposes, Aikido practice can include standing post exercises (zhan zhuang), practice movement using the jin/kokyu power at all times (shi li and mocabu are the same as what Aiki Taiso are meant to do), and now, it seems that even power releases can be done using fune-kogi undo and suburi.

Differences? I don't see any differences; I see commonalities (well.... I see commonalities that should be there, but all too often aren't, so that needs to be fixed).

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:07 AM   #487
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well maybe so, Mark. I would enjoy being caught underestimating something for once instead of overestimating. But take the discussion on Aikido Journal, as an example. It appears, belatedly, like we missed O-Sensei's ability to store and release power (Ellis Amdur picked up on it first, to give him his due). Would you say that you understand how to store and release power, also?
I was going to direct you to a video clip posted another thread (post 938 Aikido doesnt work etc ) where O Sensei was giving a demonstration pre war, but unfortunately it has been removed from the site as it says it was being used without the permission of AJ so I assume it is there somewhere. Very near the end of the 9 minute demo, O Sensei is seen repelling a two handed frontal attack with what looks to me like a release of power, the uke just seems to 'bounce off backwards. If this is what you mean by the store and release of power and do I understand how to, then a qualified 'yes' but in comparison to Ueshiba I have a long way to go My teacher can which is why I think I am fortunate to study with him.
He once performed a kokyudosa with me as uke where he managed to flip me over into a forward breakfall from seiza, I had no idea how or what happened I just remember getting up with a big smile on my face. If that isn't a release of power I don't know what is

We are all probably a little guilty of overestimation, the only people who really know what our aikido is like are the people who actually come into contact with us. Talk is easy, doing is less so.

Cheers,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:19 AM   #488
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Very near the end of the 9 minute demo, O Sensei is seen repelling a two handed frontal attack with what looks to me like a release of power, the uke just seems to 'bounce off backwards. If this is what you mean by the store and release of power and do I understand how to,
Hi Mark:

No, that would just be a use of kokyu-power in that example. I was talking about something else.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:24 AM   #489
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Hmmmm, if someone is doing a jo kata and knows how to keep the ki/kokyu power backing every single increment of the movement, then the kata itself could be considered a qigong. Whatever.... just do it.
Well, **ideally** **all** of aikido, waza, solo movements, etc, should be training of the sort you mention to some extent I suppose. I think that is one of the things the practice was supposed to provide. How often it does that today is another question.

Quote:
He once performed a kokyudosa with me as uke where he managed to flip me over into a forward breakfall from seiza, I had no idea how or what happened I just remember getting up with a big smile on my face. If that isn't a release of power I don't know what is
I've had the exact same experience from a particular senior at the Doshinkan, the same one who focused on breathing exercises during a warm up session where the breath powered the movement. He has done these types of power releases on me a few times. WOW.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:25 AM   #490
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No, that would just be a use of kokyu-power in that example. I was talking about something else.
then until I understand what you mean, I need to revise my answer to maybe or perhaps no

Cheers

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:27 AM   #491
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I've had the exact same experience from a particular senior at the Doshinkan, the same one who focused on breathing exercises during a warm up session where the breath powered the movement. He has done these types of power releases on me a few times. WOW.
it's not something you forget in a hurry is it Ron?

cheers

Mark

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Old 06-02-2006, 11:31 AM   #492
Michael Mackenzie
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So for all practical purposes, Aikido practice can include standing post exercises (zhan zhuang), practice movement using the jin/kokyu power at all times (shi li and mocabu are the same as what Aiki Taiso are meant to do), and now, it seems that even power releases can be done using fune-kogi undo and suburi.

Differences? I don't see any differences; I see commonalities (well.... I see commonalities that should be there, but all too often aren't, so that needs to be fixed).
Hi Mike,

That is super-groovy!! Unfortunately most aikido consists of going to an aikido class and doing set techniques for an hour and a half, while people pretend to be Japanese and tell you your not doing nikkyo right. Aiki taiso and fune-kogi undo in their minds are remarkably fast militaristic warm-ups. How many have even swung a sword?

Sorry, I'm feeling a bit petulant today...I understand this is common in most CMA classes too (barring speaking Japanese and the have another name for nikkyo, small capture anyone?!)

I guess this again speaks to the level of instruction that is widely available, how few experts their are in "any" field and how hard fought it is to get this information.

PS what kind of "aiki" zhang zhuang did you come across in your research?

Best,

Mike

Last edited by Michael Mackenzie : 06-02-2006 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:44 AM   #493
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Michael Mackenzie wrote:
Hi Mike,

That is super-groovy!! Unfortunately most aikido consists of going to an aikido class and doing set techniques for an hour and a half, while people pretend to be Japanese and tell you your not doing nikkyo right. Aiki taiso and fune-kogi undo in their minds are remarkably fast militaristic warm-ups. How many have even swung a sword?

Sorry, I'm feeling a bit petulant today...I understand this is common in most CMA classes too (barring speaking Japanese and the have another name for nikkyo, small capture anyone?!)
It's widespread... don't think it's just common to Aikido, Mike. I remember making a remark at a martial arts tournament that had "kata" in it (both Chinese and Japanese) and someone asked me to judge, but I declined... I didn't see anyone who even had the rudiments of basic jin in their movements and I would have felt like a wielder of agricultural implements (a hoe-er) if I'd dropped into the "way they looked" sort of stuff. Although later I wished I'd just done it and held up signs that said "Nice Shoes" or "Nice Uniform". Oh well.
Quote:
PS what kind of "aiki" zhang zhuang did you come across in your research?
I just had confirmation from a number of different sources that yes, standing postures were indeed used by various of the old instructors. The "kind" varied, but that doesn't tell me a lot. Since you can't see where the stresses and intent are directed, it's impossible to know for sure what a particular standing posture is training unless the person doing it tells you where their intent is.

All the Best.

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:00 PM   #494
Michael Mackenzie
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I just had confirmation from a number of different sources that yes, standing postures were indeed used by various of the old instructors. The "kind" varied, but that doesn't tell me a lot. Since you can't see where the stresses and intent are directed, it's impossible to know for sure what a particular standing posture is training unless the person doing it tells you where their intent is
Agreed and yet...

I'd be interested to hear who they were, where the postures were derived from and where they fit in the training syllabus.

Call me curious

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:24 PM   #495
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
If you are training in the basics of yoshinkan, then you are training in kokyu ryoku. I can understand that. But, the problem arises in the "training" in the basics. We don't have Shioda around anymore to correct us if we're not "training" in the basics the correct way. How do we know if we're going at it the right way?
Well, one way is to compare the results, although different people read their results different ways. Even though he's got a few mat-monkies here and there, this is a good little bit on Shioda Kancho:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=...&v=1sCevYMrZtY
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:28 PM   #496
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

umph....what mature content could possibly be in that link?

B,
R (just dying to see it now...but not enough to sign up)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:51 PM   #497
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
umph....what mature content could possibly be in that link?

B,
R (just dying to see it now...but not enough to sign up)
Er, Ron.... the trick is to have a freemail account somewhere and dummy the rest.

Mike
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:57 PM   #498
MM
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
umph....what mature content could possibly be in that link?

B,
R (just dying to see it now...but not enough to sign up)
Wow. No, let me rephrase that. WOW. I've never seen some of that footage with Shioda. There's no mature content at all. Why it's labelled as such, I don't know. But you really should watch it, Ron. Or maybe you've seen it already. It's a short video on Shioda's life and some of his demonstrations, including one for Kennedy.

Mark
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:07 PM   #499
wendyrowe
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
umph....what mature content could possibly be in that link?
Violence, of course. (Whoops, that's the other thread!)
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:10 PM   #500
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

yep, seen it now. I hadn't seen that section of the Kennedy demonstration where he has the security guy flopping like a fish! A lot of the other clips I've either seen all or part of. And yeah, wow. Good stuff.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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