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Old 05-10-2006, 05:23 PM   #201
Jory Boling
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Do any of the following links relate to anything being discussed here? Or is it just fun to watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys internal stuff from a kenshi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZjHAijc0k kiaido

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfhxVmdXZ4 iron crotch

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Old 05-10-2006, 05:25 PM   #202
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
First of all, what is being called "internal" body mechanics is pretty widely known in Asia. In the Chinese Army, they train these sorts of things routinely using breathing exercises and related techniques.
But do they practice jo tricks?

Quote:
(1.) The skin becomes resistant to puncturing and tearing.
(2.) The body becomes able to absorb heavy blows.
(3.) strength is increased due to the development of fascia-related structures in the body.
How are these different from body mechanics and regular ol' external strength?

Quote:
(4.) Strength is increased due to the ability to manipulate paths with the body/mind.
(5.) Measureable electro-magnetic field around the body is increased.
(6.) There seems to be an immune-system function tied into the fascia-structure strengthening.
Are there any actual studies with measurements that you can cite?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-10-2006, 05:26 PM   #203
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Kevin:

How would you explain this in terms of "normal" body mechanics?

http://media.putfile.com/yiquan-push
Can anyone rule out conscious/unconscious acting/playing along?Afterall, if it is a teacher/master situation, one wouldn't want to not react when the master did something and make him/her lose face, I can imagine.

It would be nice to rule some of these possibilities out before resorting to 'different than external' explanations.Unfortunately, no one can be assured of that from some random video found on the internet.

I don't see anything other than one person barely moving and the other stepping back. I can video myself and another person doing that exact thing if that is what passes for evidence of doing something 'internal'. :^)

Forutnately, normal body mechanics is the default so Kevin doesn't have to explain anything. It is up to those who claim it is different than normal body mechanics to do the explaining.

Last edited by statisticool : 05-10-2006 at 05:35 PM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-10-2006, 08:01 PM   #204
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
Do any of the following links relate to anything being discussed here? Or is it just fun to watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys internal stuff from a kenshi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZjHAijc0k kiaido

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfhxVmdXZ4 iron crotch
Well, the second two are directly connected with ways of developing the "ki" itself. The kiai development can be considered a tangent of the breath storage/development of the hara. The penis thing is actually one of the oldest recorded "gungs" to develop qi strength because the penis/scrotum area is sort of like a "tab" that allows you to grab the fascia layers, hang weights and develop the body wide fascia (along with breathing practices). But it's just one of a number of "here's my favorite way of doing it" approaches.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:05 AM   #205
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
The penis thing is actually one of the oldest recorded "gungs" to develop qi strength because the penis/scrotum area is sort of like a "tab" that allows you to grab the fascia layers, hang weights and develop the body wide fascia (along with breathing practices). But it's just one of a number of "here's my favorite way of doing it" approaches.
So... what are some other "tabs" that aren't quite so sensitive?

On the topic of BK Frantzis - he tells a story that he was unable to move even one of his teacher Liu Hung Chieh's finger's with his whole 200 lb body mass. His teacher was meant to be 90lb I think. This sounds about as unlikely as someone pushing full force on a jo from the side and not moving it - I ground path, fascia and all that - there's gotta be a limit don't there?
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:17 AM   #206
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Mike checked out the video. I have no idea what is going on. My thoughts are in line with Justin's though, if I had the time, I could reproduce the video with a couple of dudes with no training. So it is hard to tell from the video if anything substance is going on.

The penis thing. I accept that their is KI/CHI and all that other stuff going on. No problem there. It, it like the Jo trick, unbendable arm is again, designed around a very controlled set of parameters and inputs that allow for something to happen. I put all this in the category of walking on coals, bed of nails, yogi's being buried in the sand etc.

I do agree that these people are highly skilled at what they do and have developed a mind/body link that allows them to perform such feats. It is something to marvel and there are things we can learn.

However, back to martial arts. Practically speaking, I have yet to see how any of this training has much to do with MA. The Iaido sensei is impressive. He demonstrates that he has mastered his art of the sword. I have no issue with that....however, he is not generating this "amazing strength or super human powers. He has simply connected his mind/body to the point that he has superior reflexes, speed, and skill all put together in one complete package. Impressive to say the least!

Again, I still submit, at this point, I have not seen demonstrated that there is any unique benefit that CMA or the so-called "internal arts" offer over any other "external system".

There is no proof offered that 1. They live longer than anyone else. 2. They are happier than anyone else. 3. They are more effective as a martial artist than anyone else. 4. They are more well rounded and versatle than anyone else.

What they have demonstrated is that they have specialized in a particular area of interest and have developed a unique set of skills that are simply quite amazing. They should be studied with interest and explored because there are lessons we can probably learn from them, but I have yet to be impressed that what they do some how offers a greater benefit that produces a superior athlete or martial artist.

I still depise the term "internal martial art" as it is commonly applied as it is used by many to decieve people into thinking that they are learning something secret, that there is something that they are missing, or something extraordinary "special" that can be transmitted by a select few individuals. In the mean time, people have their eye on goal that simply serves as a distraction that keeps them from learning the real lessons MA arts have to help us learn...which is how to be better, happier, and healthier.

If you are talking internal in that regard...I have no issue. However, once you go there...then there really is no such thing as "external training" as a separate and distinct practice because you will inevitablely get the internal benefits simply from training hard at the external.

What it does do is take away the creditability and money out of the pockets of the circus freaks and others who want to parade around in fancy uniforms purporting themselves to have "something" to offer people that is some how mysterious and special.

Again, the day one of these penis lifting guys get into the ring with Chuck Lidell and can demonstrate that they have the CHI to beat him, or they can go to the UN council and use their abilities to negotiate peace in the world, or to show me how I can be happier or live longer is the day I will be impressed.

Why do I bring up the UFC? frankly it really is the only avenue we have that safely demonstrates abilities of a person to deal physically with multiple inputs and parameters that are fairly uncontrolled and uncooperative.

I still think Yoga is more on the right track in developing your mind, body,and spirit than anything anyone here has demonstrated through Martial arts through focusing on KI development.
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:45 AM   #207
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
I still think Yoga is more on the right track in developing your mind, body,and spirit than anything anyone here has demonstrated through Martial arts through focusing on KI development.
I pretty much agree with here - esp since it I have found it a hell of lot easier to get instruction in basic pranayama or meditation through yoga teachers that actually give me tangible results relatively quickly. In the martial arts arena however I've met far more people who talk about ki but can show me nothing and a few who have the stuff but want to hang it over the rest of us.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:54 AM   #208
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Mike checked out the video. I have no idea what is going on. My thoughts are in line with Justin's though, if I had the time, I could reproduce the video with a couple of dudes with no training. So it is hard to tell from the video if anything substance is going on.
Hi Kevin:

So let's leave it at the probability that there is something going on involving some unknown form of training/results that is outside of your understanding of "normal" body mechanics, alignment, etc., eh? Fair enough?
Quote:
The penis thing. I accept that their is KI/CHI and all that other stuff going on. No problem there. It, it like the Jo trick, unbendable arm is again, designed around a very controlled set of parameters and inputs that allow for something to happen. I put all this in the category of walking on coals, bed of nails, yogi's being buried in the sand etc.
You're right... it IS part the same stuff the yogis do (when it's actually done and not just one of the faked-up demo's so many westerners see and then dismiss). It's part of body training and conditioning that is OUTSIDE of what would be considered "normal conditioning". Regardless, it is still conditioning that obeys the laws of physics... let's keep that part clear.
Quote:
Again, I still submit, at this point, I have not seen demonstrated that there is any unique benefit that CMA or the so-called "internal arts" offer over any other "external system".
Well, I gave you a list earlier of the increased strength, resistance to blows, etc., that are above normal. If you can't see any reason why that might be of a benefit in a martial setting then it's pointless to keep repeating myself.
Quote:
There is no proof offered that 1. They live longer than anyone else. 2. They are happier than anyone else. 3. They are more effective as a martial artist than anyone else. 4. They are more well rounded and versatle than anyone else.
Well, I'm personally unclear that they live any longer than anyone else with good health that exercises a lot. But from what I know, I would concede that it's probable, just from the type of exercises and what it exercises. Happier... no one said that. More effective... they are because of the power, resistance to blows, etc. "Well rounded" and versatile?.... no one said that and I don't want to go off on tangents.
Quote:
I still think Yoga is more on the right track in developing your mind, body,and spirit than anything anyone here has demonstrated through Martial arts through focusing on KI development.
Kevin, my opinion is that this is simply a topic that you don't have enough facts to make knowledgeable statements about. Rather than make negative comments, why not just wait until you have enough information?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:42 AM   #209
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Kevin:

Kevin, my opinion is that this is simply a topic that you don't have enough facts to make knowledgeable statements about. Rather than make negative comments, why not just wait until you have enough information?

Regards,

Mike
Yes, actually a Chinese idiom describes this better "The Frog in the Shallow Well"

The frog has a very limited knowledge of what the outside world is like, but think that it knows everything there is to know.
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:45 AM   #210
bratzo_barrena
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

It's ridiculous to think of KI as a source of magical power, or some kind of energy one person can manipulate at will.
At best, KI could be defined or understood as an state of being, or as a logical consecuence of using body, mind and spirit/will as a whole to achive a specific goal.
As obvious as two legs generate more power than just one, the whole body, properly aligned and structured generates even more power. To the body we and the mind, meaning the capability to analize the situation and respond properly, and the spirit/will, meaning the correct intention and attitud towards that specific situation; well, the CONSECUENCE is "this magical power" called KI. Nothing magical though. Nothing special, everybody has it, everybody uses it, even if they don't know it.
It's funny when we see these Ki/CHI masters, who for example claim they can move Ki aroud their bodies at will an use it to protect them as an invisible shield. To prove it they put a spear to their throats and push. It's a nice trick, but have you ever seen them focusing their KI in their eye and the putting a spear on thier eye and push? Of course not. Can they do ti? NO. Because it's not true ki is a kind of invisible shield they can use at will, that's bullshit.
How about the video of this guy screaming and the attacker falls down. If that power were true, from ancient times armies would have been trained in that art and they would have ruled the world.
That would be the perfect martial art. Even without contact, just by screaming you defeat your enemy, great... for a star wars movie.
There's nothing mystical, maginal, hidden about KI. Ki is just the logical result of using our being as a whole, to achieve a goal.
A martial artist, a soccer palyer, a cocker, a contruction worker, a mother taking care of her children, a song writer, a painter, all use Ki when they they focus their bodies, mind and spirit/will in what they do.

Bratzo Barrena
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Doral, FL
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:48 AM   #211
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Yes, actually a Chinese idiom describes this better "The Frog in the Shallow Well"

The frog has a very limited knowledge of what the outside world is like, but think that it knows everything there is to know.
I beg to differ, frogs are that dim that they would starve to death in a box full of dead flies ( they are only programmed to see moving things as food )
Frogs are not capable of processing 'knowledge of what the outside world is like'.

Kevin as far as I'm aware is not a frog

It's a cute little saying but like much of what has been said and misread on this thread it does not describe the reality.

Talking about Ki/internal exercises is a bit like frogs looking at pictures of flies.
practicing the exercises are the only way to gain anything from them.
What you gain from themis personal to you, what other people think you gain from them is open to argument.
A bit like sitting listening to the frogs at nighttime, pleasant but incessant noise

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:54 AM   #212
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
It's funny when we see these Ki/CHI masters, who for example claim they can move Ki aroud their bodies at will an use it to protect them as an invisible shield. To prove it they put a spear to their throats and push. It's a nice trick, but have you ever seen them focusing their KI in their eye and the putting a spear on thier eye and push? Of course not. Can they do ti? NO. Because it's not true ki is a kind of invisible shield they can use at will, that's bullshit.
.
I've seen just that on one of the Mind Body & Kickass Moves programmes, so be careful about saying something can't be done.

I absolutely agree that ki /chi is not mystical or magical though.

regards
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:00 AM   #213
bratzo_barrena
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I've seen just that on one of the Mind Body & Kickass Moves programmes, so be careful about saying something can't be done.

I absolutely agree that ki /chi is not mystical or magical though.

regards
Mark

Mark, are you telling me that you've seen a person put a spear in his/her open eye and push and bend the spear without suffering any damage? Can you give us prove of that?
And by the way, I've seen a programme in which David Copperfield was flying, but he can't fly, right?

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:08 AM   #214
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
It's funny when we see these Ki/CHI masters, who for example claim they can move Ki aroud their bodies at will an use it to protect them as an invisible shield.
I don't know any real "masters" who claim that. There are some experts who say that conditioning the "qi" resists punctures to the skin and provides resistance to blows, but not on areas that are not covered by musculature
Quote:
To prove it they put a spear to their throats and push. It's a nice trick, but have you ever seen them focusing their KI in their eye and the putting a spear on thier eye and push? Of course not. Can they do ti? NO. Because it's not true ki is a kind of invisible shield they can use at will, that's bullshit.
That's an amazing rhetorical device... you make a statement about something I've never heard claimed and then you debunk it. Let's call it a "strawman" argument, for want of a better name.
Quote:
How about the video of this guy screaming and the attacker falls down. If that power were true, from ancient times armies would have been trained in that art and they would have ruled the world.
Strange... being strong doesn't guarantee anyone will win every fight and yet soldiers still foolishly traing their strength. Will they never learn?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:25 AM   #215
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
Mark, are you telling me that you've seen a person put a spear in his/her open eye and push and bend the spear without suffering any damage? Can you give us prove of that?
And by the way, I've seen a programme in which David Copperfield was flying, but he can't fly, right?
I'd have to dig out the dvd to see exactly, but it was probably two sharp metal rods rather than spears, and he may have had some coins on the eye balls. Anyway what I saw was an impressive display of strength centred on the eyaball region, ki chi body mechanics, I don't care what you call it, it certainly took alot of mind body training. He was part of a travelling chinese group that were famous for their extreme demonstrations of control of chi energy.

regards
Mark

p.s. David Copperfield can fly, can't he ?

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:57 PM   #216
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Again, thanks for the reply Mike.

Yup no point in repeating yourself. I agree. And as to waiting to I have more input. Also agree and will keep an open mind. However, at this point in my thought process, I am at the conclusion that these things obviously do exist and obviously warrant some sort of study. However, they have little or no meaning as it applies to martial ability or martial skill.

Obviously if you feel they do help in some way, that is okay, however, I have not seen demonstrated that these kind of things influence things enough to make much of a difference, or we'd see world class athletes, NHB fighters, and others flocking to gain the benefits. Can we leave it at that?
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:16 PM   #217
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Obviously if you feel they do help in some way, that is okay, however, I have not seen demonstrated that these kind of things influence things enough to make much of a difference, or we'd see world class athletes, NHB fighters, and others flocking to gain the benefits. Can we leave it at that?
Kevin, Kevin... where is your respect for the other inhabitants of this planet? This may come as a shocker, but there are tons of martial contests being held in Asia by guys that never heard of the UFC and NHB(with rules) fighting. I can appreciate it that if someone doesn't watch the same trendy things you do they're just not "with it", but......

Do you understand the traditional Asian views about public fighting for purses, etc., among some martial artists? Let's just leave it for the minute that there MAY be some interesting things still out there... and doesn't that just add a nice spice to life to not have already been there and done everything.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-11-2006, 09:24 PM   #218
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

No problem with that Mike. Still think there would be some crossover at some point regardless of tradition and culture.

I think we have reached our point of balance and I am getting very repetitive so I will leave it alone for now!

Thanks!
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Old 05-11-2006, 09:34 PM   #219
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Do you understand the traditional Asian views about public fighting for purses, etc., among some martial artists?
Most people understand that they do it too. Muay Thai matches for example, Pride, the Olympics, etc.

Most people that do stuff like in the clips that you linked to, probably do not engage in such sports, and if they do, do not seem to use their tricks. BTW, they could donate the purse to their favorite charity, of course.

Last edited by statisticool : 05-11-2006 at 09:41 PM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-12-2006, 07:28 AM   #220
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Kevin

For some who practice these things they do it for health; balance, movement, support of internal organs, etc.

From heath and balance ot fighting
Others have, do, and will continue to incorporate it martially. This training will improve certain aspects of a fighters game, but, they are a separate venue of training you then incorporate into your game of choice. There is no argument worth having when you are shown how to do some of these things that I have seen. They are a "practical" skill set in every sense and worth the having.

The Ki debate
I don't believe in what most folks call Ki and the resultant foppish attempts at anything martial I have witnessed that comes from their studies. But there are other views on Ki, or breath work biuld on I.S. and that are indeed relevant. I do know that taking men through a regimen of heavy bag work and having THEM greatly enhance their penetration through internal training, their ability to throw and to resist being thrown, their ability on the ground to deliver more power while being more reactive and fluid has more than enough merit to convince those involved to further their own pursuits.

Internal training is not fighting
Just to repeat: Fighting is different from training. Many "masters" of many arts wouldn't last 5 minutes in a MMA ring, and no amount of internal training will prepare you to win in that venue other then training for that venue. That said, if your interest lie in a martial pursuit, internal strength training is -thee- best type of relaxed strength to pursue for it. And Yes Kevin I do believe it will enhance Lidells ability to punch. His hands will be heavier and deliver even more center into an opponent.

And Kevin as for the ground game
If an internal fighter was in the mount and say going for a kimura or americana? The ways he would generate power to do so using the ground across a body line have significantly more strength to apply it, while leaving the body more relaxed to read and sense as well. No one and no thing is invincible bit these skills make you more of a handful. The opponents ability to sense where the power is coming from is further obscured as well. It is fairly easy to "read" when someone is using shoulder and arms. And in the case of Jujigitame or oma plata? The person doing them will have a better base of strength even though he is already using legs and hips. And last..you know the four corner mount in BJJ ? There are ways to do that smear across the person to control them that are difficult to read and work against and feel very smothering. But for person on top the movements aren't "dedicated" or singular therefore more exposed to a reversal. So, while feeling strong you remain mobile to "up" for a ground and pound, then slide down for chokes and locks.On the ground using the back and legs to flip becomes a different game as well. In some aspects the line between I.S. skills and E.S. skills join or cross.

The connection is that all of the attributes for resisting the jo apply in the ground game. You just need to know the ground game to know where and how to use them. You are using the same principles but instead of absorbing and grounding through the back foot and transfering to the front- you are using knees to knees across hips. and knees to hands and knees to head or hands. Even and active diaphragm and use of the spine to generate a power apply. Even with something as simple as a relase, right into their stomach while in the mount.
No matter If you are a decent, good or excellent fighter it will give you an edge.
But it will never......make anyone a fighter.

Remain a sceptic and discount all this crap. Most people fall apart in a real confrontation. They don't have the mental or physical preparedness to handle true agression. To wit, their "arts" generally don't hold up to any standard resembling a measure of refinement when pressed. So I don't fault you at all for doubting it.

I returned only to say that to make a statement that these things have questionable or doubtable relevance in fighting.......... is simply wrong.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-12-2006 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:47 AM   #221
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

How do you know that Chuck Liddell doesn't already possess these qualities? I bet his hands are as heavy as anyones.

I think that among high caliber athletes that they are already doing many of the things you subscribe to. They simply don't make a big deal out of it or objectify it.

I learned years ago how I could push my mind and body beyond the limits percieved physical limits years ago. I have also experienced some pretty incredible mental and physical states during extreme periods of training. Handling physcial agression requires skillfully requires mental toughness, but also calm, and being able to connect your mind, body, and spirit together within yourself and also be able to empathize with the other party involved. I find that my aikido teachers and instructors do this just fine. It is nothing secret, nor does it require KI training per se. It requires a sincere desire to listen, open your mind, and learn through repetitive training and cooperation.

I personally put much more weight and importance in this area of becoming skillfull and feel that if you spend you time in this area you are much more powerful internally than anyone that can do Jo Tricks.

Anyway that is how I see it.

I guess the value of this simply escapes me. Sorry.
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Old 05-12-2006, 12:07 PM   #222
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Let me rephrase my statement above. I see value in the KI exercises as a means to test alignment, posture, response to energy, pushes, pulls...propreception etc.

We used to do this in Uechi Ryu as well as Jimmy stated somewhere.

What I mean to say is I don't see any value in concentrating on this as a separate, and special practice or holding it in such high regard that it takes on a life of it's own. Or to say that because someone does not study with someone who concentrates or specializes in Bua Gua, Taiji, or any other art...that they don't "get it".

As I stated before, there are people out there that develop skills to suit their needs. Basketball players of high caliber develop "KI" that best serves them in being the best basketball player. Chuck LIddell develops his KI to be the best NHB he can be. Chess Players develop their KI to be the best chess players they can be.

KI masters simply are that. KI masters. They can lift weights with there penis, but that is there speciality. nothing more than that.

If I want to be a good basketball player I'd study with the best basketball players I could.

If I want to be a NHB fighter, then I study with those guys.

If I want to learn to lift wieghts with my Penis...well I wouldn't go to Shaq and ask him to help me develop my ability to do that.

If I want to be good at aikido, I will study with someone who is good at that.

I suppose this is really what my point is.
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Old 05-12-2006, 12:44 PM   #223
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
What I mean to say is I don't see any value in concentrating on this as a separate, and special practice or holding it in such high regard that it takes on a life of it's own. Or to say that because someone does not study with someone who concentrates or specializes in Bua Gua, Taiji, or any other art...that they don't "get it".

As I stated before, there are people out there that develop skills to suit their needs. Basketball players of high caliber develop "KI" that best serves them in being the best basketball player. Chuck LIddell develops his KI to be the best NHB he can be. Chess Players develop their KI to be the best chess players they can be.
Kevin... have you ever noticed that a number of Aikido teachers don't get into these conversations if they can avoid them? They're smart. Why leave a public post of what you don't know in 2006 when it's obviously growing rapidly as the information most of the westerners missed in their various martial arts? Of course, if you think it's of no value and saying that won't come back to haunt you, I admire your candor.

All the Best.

Mike
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Old 05-12-2006, 01:34 PM   #224
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

It can also be said that too many western students pick up the prejudices of their eastern teachers. And I will point a finger at myself as quick as anyone else. This shades their view of the depth and understanding of other arts developed in other countries by people that are distrusted and even loathed. Believe me the west has no monopoly on narrow-mindedness. Sometimes if we don't use the same words or describe something the same way people will assume we are lacking knowledge or are just obtuse. When in fact neither is true it is simply, many times, a breakdown in communication fostered by a lack of trust and a heaping load of misunderstanding.


Dennis

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 05-12-2006, 02:20 PM   #225
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Believe me the west has no monopoly on narrow-mindedness.
Yeah, but only the West thinks narrow-mindedness is something to be ashamed of... we're narrow-minded that way.

Mike
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