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Old 05-06-2006, 08:21 AM   #151
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
no they are science facts that i have consistently exercised .where you understand a portion of a "martial art" in excursion form but no real depth of hand to hand application in a fight ,you can never see it .
Well, if you're using Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle in a real fight you are a truly unusual individual, Jason.

http://www.neijia.com/Heisenberg.jpg
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Old 05-06-2006, 08:37 AM   #152
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If you want to fight, you need to go up and tell him you want to fight for real... he's taken real challenges his whole life.
Oh, I'm sure, but we can only comment on what we see in front of us. And we saw a video of him getting pushed basically, in a 'polite' setting.

Quote:
Instead of "what would he do if....?" you need to just go to one of his seminars and tell him you want to do it, Justin, instead of just theorizing from behind a keyboard.
I'm not sure why you believe you get to tell me how to use my computer. Let's please stay on topic here.

Last edited by statisticool : 05-06-2006 at 08:48 AM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-06-2006, 08:44 AM   #153
Dennis Hooker
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Just for the record could I get a quick count on how many contributors to this thread now train in Aikido? Don't get me wrong I like the discussion, attitude and tone of the thread and it seems we have a diverse group of people commutation openly and I sure would like to know the background of everyone. It would give me an idea of where I might like to explore further as a student. A few have already given that information.

Dennis Hooker

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 05-06-2006, 08:59 AM   #154
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Oh, I'm sure, but we can only comment on what we see in front of us. And we saw a video of him getting pushed basically, in a 'polite' setting.
I think, just from watching the fact that CXW obviously agreed to just let the guy try something and that CXW didn't make a single offensive move himself, that the original discussion was about "what would you do if....?". In other words, the video tells us nothing of any real importance.

Oh wait.... when Liao Bai bounces off from the first push and the last one, the essential mechanics are the same as for the jo trick and for most of Tohei's "ki tests". So there is a relevance.

Regards,

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 05-06-2006 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 05-06-2006, 09:00 AM   #155
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Just for the record could I get a quick count on how many contributors to this thread now train in Aikido? Don't get me wrong I like the discussion, attitude and tone of the thread and it seems we have a diverse group of people commutation openly and I sure would like to know the background of everyone. It would give me an idea of where I might like to explore further as a student. A few have already given that information.

Dennis Hooker
Although my input hasn't been massive, I think one of my earlier posts had a 'stirring up' effect

14 years of Ki Aikido with K Williams - Ki Federation of GB

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-06-2006, 09:05 AM   #156
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think, just from watching the fact that CXW obviously agreed to just let the guy try something and that CXW didn't make a single offensive move himself, that the original discussion was about "what would you do if....?". In other words, the video tells us nothing of any real importance.

Regards,

Mike
I watched the video, I know little about pushing hands, but it was obvious to me within moments who was who and who had the upper 'hand' so to speak.
What would you do if...? questions are not really worth the space they take up.
The answer is only evident after the action.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-06-2006, 09:21 AM   #157
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I watched the video, I know little about pushing hands, but it was obvious to me within moments who was who and who had the upper 'hand' so to speak.
Actually, I like seeing people comment out of the blue on videos like that, too, Mark. I agree it's pretty obvious who was in charge and that it had something to do with a discussion about "what would you do if...?". But the people who couldn't grasp that quickly are numerous in many such similar videos, actual confrontations, etc., I've seen over the years.

The "jo trick" has always been sort of like that to me. Different people get different impressions about what is going on and frankly all I see is the principle that he was trying to show (although I think he stretched a bit too far and couldn't quite pull it off").

The same with watching Tohei's "ki tricks". I see that he's showing a principle and that principle, if used in the right way in a real confrontation, is valuable. If Tohei can stand on one leg, for instance, and resist a push to his arm, then he can use that same force to hit or throw someone .... so it's worth chasing down how he did that trick and the other tricks.

Jim Sorrentino mentioned the other day about seeing someone kick through the wall of a 55-gallon drum on Okinawa. I've seen someone shove their fingers through the walls of a 55-gallon drum. I don't want to train as long or as hard as they did, but I would like to have some portion of that kind of power, so learning how they train is worthwhile. Why do I want to do something like that if I don't fight anywhere at all as much as I used to? It's an investment in my own quality of life for now and as I get older.... and that's exactly what O-Sensei and Shioda said. Funny coincidence.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-06-2006, 09:35 AM   #158
MM
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Just for the record could I get a quick count on how many contributors to this thread now train in Aikido? Don't get me wrong I like the discussion, attitude and tone of the thread and it seems we have a diverse group of people commutation openly and I sure would like to know the background of everyone. It would give me an idea of where I might like to explore further as a student. A few have already given that information.

Dennis Hooker

I still train in Aikido, although not with the same group I started with. Initially, I was in the Jiyushinkai out in OKC. I moved to West Virginia where there aren't any local dojos. So to keep up with regular training, I finally started training under the Chudokai.

Mark
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Old 05-06-2006, 10:47 AM   #159
Talon
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Well sure
He cant' make it work.
I mean.....after all he did buy the video and watch it. And he did try it once and couldn't make it work. So obviously it can't be done
And then..........he did write his findings on the net and you guys read it.
Is this martial arts training in the 21st century?

Look up the word myopic.

Dan
Well I don't think that his little article was that simple. It brought up pretty good obesrvations and points about the video. If the uke was strictly pushing with all his might why did his front foot not come off the ground? By all rights it should have. Also if you look at the video you'll see that his rear foot looks pretty light and sometimes even comes off or slides a bit. If he was pushing with all his might his rear foot should be planted and his front foot should be light or even off the ground. It doesnt look like thats whats happening in the video though.

I would not be so rough on the guy who is just observing and attempting to figure out something with some reason. Now I asked you because you do the jo trick and wanted to know your perspective and how you do the trick. Best regards.

PS. for the poster that asked about aikido practitioners. I used to train a bit of Karate when I was young, Wing Chun when I was in colege and now strictly Aikido.
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Old 05-06-2006, 12:01 PM   #160
wendyrowe
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, if you're using Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle in a real fight you are a truly unusual individual, Jason.

http://www.neijia.com/Heisenberg.jpg
Some of Jason's writing can be hard to understand, but in that case it was pretty clear that he was using it as an example of something we know to be true even though we also know that we don't know everything about it:

Quote:
JasonFDeLucia wrote:
like at present we can calculate the momentum of a particle or its position but not both at the same time .i would not cast aspersions on a physicist's view that lead him to a conclusion if it worked to get him there
The point is, the physicist has to work out a model that explains what's happening even though he doesn't know everything; and even if he doesn't know the entire answer, he still works with what he has and tries to learn the rest. Same idea here: we shouldn't dismiss the whole thing as hooey because we don't understand everything that's going on.

Because I believe that the "Jo Trick" conforms to established physical principles even though the outcome is not what we expect, I have to assume it falls into one of two categories:
1. a "parlor trick" with ukes who are in on it so observers will be impressed
2. an exercise wherein the dynamics are not what they appear to be because the camera (or eye) is not capturing all the subtleties of all the movements.

If it were a parlor trick, I'd expect it to be more convincing since there's no point in doing a demo of a technique that'll cause people to say "They were letting you have it."

As an engineer, I can easily imagine that there are unexpected torques involved because of the movements of the person holding the jo and the way he moves it. My guess is that the people trying to grab and hold the jo are expecting to feel force exerted against their hold in a particular way so they brace against that, but instead it moves differently so they can't hold it. It's the same concept as pretty much any aiki throw, where nage's initial motion sets up uke to react a particular way so nage can counter it.

I would love to have some sort of an electronic jo coated with force sensors so we'd be able to record and simulate what's happening. I'm sure the forces applied to the jo are going through considerable changes even though we can't see it in the video.

This isn't to say I don't believe in ki. But I'd say the manifestation of ki here is the way O'Sensei (or whoever else has the jo) uses his mind/body keep the jo responding to the attackers' dynamics. I don't believe he's defying physics through magic, and I don't believe that every instance of the "jo trick" is a put-on.

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Just for the record could I get a quick count on how many contributors to this thread now train in Aikido?
Jason DeLucia has been my Aikido teacher for the past three years.
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Old 05-06-2006, 01:14 PM   #161
Mark Uttech
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

O Sensei himself has been quoted as saying: "Reliance on tricks will get you nowhere."
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Old 05-06-2006, 01:44 PM   #162
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
Well I don't think that his little article was that simple. It brought up pretty good obesrvations and points about the video. If the uke was strictly pushing with all his might why did his front foot not come off the ground? By all rights it should have. Also if you look at the video you'll see that his rear foot looks pretty light and sometimes even comes off or slides a bit. If he was pushing with all his might his rear foot should be planted and his front foot should be light or even off the ground. It doesnt look like thats whats happening in the video though.

I would not be so rough on the guy who is just observing and attempting to figure out something with some reason. Now I asked you because you do the jo trick and wanted to know your perspective and how you do the trick. Best regards.

PS. for the poster that asked about aikido practitioners. I used to train a bit of Karate when I was young, Wing Chun when I was in colege and now strictly Aikido.
Hi Paul

I'm not trying to be contrary or argumentative at all. He did say pretty much what I just quoted. Bought the video, watched, read somewhere about using the ground and body alignment and he couldn't do it and he stated that it doesnlt make sense. Ok. That means what? Lets see there are men who do it. I know HOW I do it, and it is pretty much the way he says it can't be done. Body alignment and grounding the force, and using ground, and my breath in a very active way with my spine to push with it.

As for the man? I don't think anyone can self teach these things. Or maybe they do and they're just smarter than me. I think everyone else need a teacher.

As for how hard someone pushes and whether its one or three guys or pushing against a Sumo guy....Look -Its all degrees and and levels of skill. Gee whilickers. Does everyone do Kokyunage as well as everyone else. And for one final time.

IT ISN'T FIGHTING...ITS JUST A TRAINING TOOL.
Though the principles are excellent for fighting.


Point 1. A Foolish buildup

Now Please, don't anyone write to me or quote me anymore unless they specifically respond to the following.

a. It's not a trick, its various principles of body alignment, using ground, breath work, and mental control of ones body. and yes anyone can do it when taught-to some degree and it will get better.

b. Wether or not someone is good enough to hold one guy, and another can hold two or three doesn't negate the principle. The principle is way to generate new strength and power. Most will want to embrace it.


Point 2. READ THIS_____________________________
There is nothing inherent in the jo principle-I am refusing to call it a trick anymore, that is not inherent to learning principles of movement in other techniques Say a good kokyunage.
While it is NOT the same principles it is still body skills and principles contained in a technique.
Learned principles and skills.

1. So, does anyone remember not being able to do Kokyunage at first?
2. That it was magical to them at first?
3. Then they learned some very practical sets of alignment and then breath control and once they moved more fluidly.....voila?
4. Do you still think its magical now?
5. It is and will be the same with the jo. I outlined above, in a previous post, the basics. Once a series of people know it it will lead to other things that are far more important in their training.


In closing,
On the whole you will laugh at the shear mechanical practicality of the basics, and why there was such a fuss. Most will embrace the new ideas of strength and work them into other things.
And like my engineering student who told me no man can remain standing from a horizontal force and went on and..... on..... and..... on with all kinds of diagrams- and calculations to prove me wrong....
When I had him actually doing these things. I had to suffer as he went ...on and ....on...and on about why it is mechanically sound. and the this and the that and how NOW it all makes sense to him.... I stopped listening.
He never could explain breath-power and what it did to the body though.

Ron
If you haven't fallen asleep. You're going to crack up. Standing in a room of 20 somethings... none of which did Aikido. All doing the Jo trick. So can two of the CMA people I know .....Oooh! ahhh!
Gees...Until recently I just assumed there were a host Aikido people who knew this stuff. Wouldn't Tohei's people know this?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-06-2006 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 05-06-2006, 02:01 PM   #163
Gary David
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Folks
Just some thoughts on my part. I have reading this and other forums for some time, but have not posted. Just the reading has provided an interesting range of insights and thoughts. Interesting to me that I would start now……..

After many years of dismissing any practical use for Tohei Sensei's four principles I have come back to what they might represent and how make practical use of them. When I started Aikido these were a large part of the system I was in. KI testing was the method to determine your understanding. In the course of processing all of this I figured out how to settle a bit to get through the testing and how to get around the testing by redirecting the flow when pressed by some of the senior instructors. Still the possible importance of any of this was not evident to me in the way it was then presented or in what the possible benefits of this training might be. The testing was never of any great force application and we never heard any discussion of force pathways or redirecting of force. No discussion of retraining of the body's muscle set, structure or posture to facilitate enhanced performance. It didn't take long to dismiss the KI testing and just train. With the death in 1978 of the dojo's founders those remaining moved away from KI Society and I moved on to different places and approaches to Aikido training. Over the years I have developed a fairly solid base and some understanding about structure, postural muscles and keeping upright.

Recently I have looked again at my early training, this brought on by thought being put into how we could give new students a better foundation earlier on which to built their base. Could something be done to get folks going on the right track earlier? This would not replace years of practical training, but could eliminate a number of restarts. Anyway it has come to me recently, with the help of some friends and comments made by Stuart Olson in one of his books talking about all principles taught by Tai Chi masters are tricks to get you to do the right thing and that to take them literally you may end up far from the mark. I am thinking that this may be the case with Tohei Sensei's four principles, tricks to get us to do the right thing. Maybe to reach single body movement, use of the center and all the other things being discussed here. The hard work is to now figure out how to format the training and how to practically pass it along given that only a few will be interested and fewer will take the time to get it.

I am not trying to get into a discussion of the merits of KI training or how it was taught at the time, just how I perceived it then and how I reacted to it then and what is going on with me now.

As for me….started Aikido in 1974 in Orange County, California, with Harry Ishisaka Sensei. Following his death in 1978 moved on to other places and other instructors. I trained a little in Karate in Hawaii in the 60's, have touched on other martial arts over the years, have a current interest in Yingyi, Bagua, Tai Chi, Yiquan, and have returned to Orange County AikiKai to teach several times a month.

Just go straight.....

Gary Welborn
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Old 05-06-2006, 02:15 PM   #164
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Just for the record could I get a quick count on how many contributors to this thread now train in Aikido? Don't get me wrong I like the discussion, attitude and tone of the thread and it seems we have a diverse group of people commutation openly and I sure would like to know the background of everyone. It would give me an idea of where I might like to explore further as a student. A few have already given that information.

Dennis Hooker
Dennis
I was in an Aikido Dojo this winter. Does that count

If you want to explore this, If I make it down to Chucks, I'll show him -as long as he doesn't follow his first instinct to just hit me over the head with the damn thing. Then he can show you. Then you can decide if it was worth it or not.
Then, since the two of you actually LIKE teaching, you can do the AMAZING JO, ROAD SHOW.

Me? Maybe I can get Chuck to spring for dinner and Mojito's-Ellis got me addicated to those things.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-06-2006 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 05-06-2006, 06:23 PM   #165
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

A better demo of push hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss&search=taiji

Same basic principle that the older guy is using to "send" the younger one-is used for the Jo trick

cheers
Dan
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Old 05-06-2006, 08:34 PM   #166
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
Some of Jason's writing can be hard to understand, but in that case it was pretty clear that he was using it as an example of something we know to be true even though we also know that we don't know everything about it:
OK, he's your teacher; I don't see any point in discussing why a quantum-level phenomenon was used to justify a real-world assertion. So, personally, I'd as soon just drop it.
Quote:
Because I believe that the "Jo Trick" conforms to established physical principles even though the outcome is not what we expect, I have to assume it falls into one of two categories:
1. a "parlor trick" with ukes who are in on it so observers will be impressed
2. an exercise wherein the dynamics are not what they appear to be because the camera (or eye) is not capturing all the subtleties of all the movements. [[snip]] As an engineer, I can easily imagine that there are unexpected torques involved because of the movements of the person holding the jo and the way he moves it. My guess is that the people trying to grab and hold the jo are expecting to feel force exerted against their hold in a particular way so they brace against that, but instead it moves differently so they can't hold it.
It's not that hard, Wendy. You should already know how these things are done on at least a basic level, IMO... since they're core to Asian martial arts and certainly core to even basic Aikido. There are a fair number of readers of the thread that already know how the basic mechanics work already, but maybe it'll be helpful to do a quick incremental analysis of the basics and then go to the jo-trick (since it's just a sort of extension of the basic idea).

The basic model of a lot of ki-demonstrations devolves to this:

http://www.neijia.com/AirPush.jpg

The essential idea is that a force pushes from one place directly toward another (from hand to ball, in the illustration), regardless of the fact that there is not a straight connection between the two points. Most people push from their shoulder joint, which is in turn braced against the stability of the body. Think of the "stress area" in the picture as representing the shoulder. We'll get to that in a minute. The hand represents the "middle" or "hara" or "tanden" or the "one point" or whatever your favorite name is. The ball represents whatever is being pushed OR we could reverse the arrows and say the ball is pushing toward the hand... it works either way.

So essentially we have some force-directions (resultant forces) and we have a "stress area" we need to look at. Here's a couple of pictures of K. Tohei demonstrating with an uke. We can think of Tohei's "hara" as the hand and the point of contact with Uke as being the ball. The green lines denote the directions of the resultant forces from Tohei's hara to the point of contact on Uke (of course the hara is braced against the ground, as shown by the green dotted-line). The yellow dotted lines show the actual connection, which would be our copper wire in the picture detailed above.

http://www.neijia.com/Tohei-1.jpg
http://www.neijia.com/Tohei-2.jpg
http://www.neijia.com/Tohei-3.jpg

Tohei espouses, as is common with this sort of power, that all forces originate from the hara/tanden, regardless of where you apply them (we'll leave out the down forces from this simple discussion, although it's the same idea). So that's the forces part, and of course the mind and the body have to be trained to source the forces from the hara, the "one point", what have you. The other half of the trick involves handling the torques at the "stress area". The idea of the "unbendable arm" is to trick an area of the body to sustain a shearing force or a torque by the mind recruiting elements other than the simple usage of the primary musculature. We can get into the details of that later, if you want, but point is that the "stress area", whether it's the shoulder or other places, can be handled by a broader recruitment of the body than just a single weak joint.

That's the essence of the idea. We can simplify the "jo trick" into basically the same model, but before we do let me know where I haven't been clear, or criticize, rebutt, comment, etc., so that we can come to an agreement on the terms, forces, etc.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-07-2006, 12:16 AM   #167
dps
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Excellent explanation Mike.
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Old 05-07-2006, 06:45 AM   #168
Dennis Hooker
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Dennis
I was in an Aikido Dojo this winter. Does that count

If you want to explore this, If I make it down to Chucks, I'll show him -as long as he doesn't follow his first instinct to just hit me over the head with the damn thing. Then he can show you. Then you can decide if it was worth it or not.
Then, since the two of you actually LIKE teaching, you can do the AMAZING JO, ROAD SHOW.

Me? Maybe I can get Chuck to spring for dinner and Mojito's-Ellis got me addicated to those things.

Dan
Dan, frankly I don't remember saying anything regarding the"Jo Trick" in all of this communication. Now admittedly I am forgetful and to lazy to reread everything but I sure can't imagine expressing an interest in it. I never said I could or couldn't do it, but that is not what I practice of teach. I did discuss Ki much to my surprise because I usually leave that to other people. I don't place much value in tricks.

Dennis

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Old 05-07-2006, 07:04 AM   #169
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Dan, frankly I don't remember saying anything regarding the"Jo Trick" in all of this communication.
snip.........


I don't place much value in tricks.
Dennis
Neither do I. That's why I don't do them. I train body skills and principles.
Anyway........Got it.
See ya
Dan
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Old 05-07-2006, 07:28 AM   #170
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
A better demo of push hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss&search=taiji

Same basic principle that the older guy is using to "send" the younger one-is used for the Jo trick

cheers
Dan
I enjoyed the video Dan, a little like watching my own aikido teacher at work, only the ukemi is done better.

regards,
Mark,
p.s please can we all stop referring to the jo trick as the jo 'trick' as you requested in post #162

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Old 05-07-2006, 07:38 AM   #171
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

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Mark Freeman wrote:
p.s please can we all stop referring to the jo trick as the jo 'trick' as you requested in post #162
I dunno, Mark... I think what we call it means nothing of importance to the people who understand what it is. It's an example of someone using ki/kokyu skills and the people who understand those skills probably don't emote about the *terms* the way the people who don't understand it do. If someone comes up to me and starts talking about ki or qi or jin or kokyu or "ki tests" or "ki tricks" or whatever, I simply follow whatever it is they're trying to say and don't stop to quibble about the terminology. We should all be able to avoid the needless distractions.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-07-2006, 07:56 AM   #172
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

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Mike Sigman wrote:
I dunno, Mark... I think what we call it means nothing of importance to the people who understand what it is. It's an example of someone using ki/kokyu skills and the people who understand those skills probably don't emote about the *terms* the way the people who don't understand it do. If someone comes up to me and starts talking about ki or qi or jin or kokyu or "ki tests" or "ki tricks" or whatever, I simply follow whatever it is they're trying to say and don't stop to quibble about the terminology. We should all be able to avoid the needless distractions.

Regards,

Mike
Absolutely Mike, I was just having a subtle dig at Dan for breaking his own request, hopefully it will be seen in the playfull spirit it was intended.
The language used to describe something is not the thing it describes. If only it were so easy.
These principles we are endlessly discussing here, are easily learned (as long as the teacher has the skill) but not so easily mastered. I think in this we are agreed.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-07-2006, 09:57 AM   #173
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

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Mark Freeman wrote:
These principles we are endlessly discussing here, are easily learned (as long as the teacher has the skill) but not so easily mastered. I think in this we are agreed.
Well, I agree that some of these basic ideas are easy to grasp and someone can learn to do a few of the basic things reasonably quickly. As I pointed out in the "Been There, Done That Attitude" thread though, too many people are anxious to indicate that they "know that stuff" and never go very far. Stunningly, a lot of teachers don't really know any of this stuff, even though they talk the talk and "can fight like blazes".

There's more than just the basic principles, although everything develops from these basic principles, and I keep offering this warning only because I've seen too many otherwise good people never begin to get any real skills in these things because they thought they already had them. I think it's past time where we should be able to visit ANY dojo and everyone in there, down to the six-months beginner, can easily duplicate most of Tohei's "ki tests".

I know a lot more than I did years ago, but I freely admit that I don't know everything and that every six months I look back at what I knew before and shake my head at the presumptions I had. But, hey, I don't teach; I learn.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-07-2006, 11:05 AM   #174
John (King John)
 
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Dojo: Prince Bishops Durham/ White Rose
Location: Durham (north east England)
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I know a lot more than I did years ago, but I freely admit that I don't know everything and that every six months I look back at what I knew before and shake my head at the presumptions I had. But, hey, I don't teach; I learn.

Regards,

Mike
I can't tell you how much I feel the same. Even my instructor, who is 5th dan and moves with such perfection that he reminds me of a ghost or rolling fog, is constantly reappraising what he does. In fact I don't believe he knows how good he is and is constantly learning and relearning.

Grab my arm.....The other arm.....MY other arm
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Old 05-08-2006, 01:34 AM   #175
johanlook
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

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Just for the record could I get a quick count on how many contributors to this thread now train in Aikido? Don't get me wrong I like the discussion, attitude and tone of the thread and it seems we have a diverse group of people commutation openly and I sure would like to know the background of everyone. It would give me an idea of where I might like to explore further as a student. A few have already given that information.
Been doing Aikido since '98, started with Iwama for 2 years, now doing whatever it is that my teacher does. Focus is on understanding that 'ki stuff".
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