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Old 05-01-2006, 08:31 PM   #76
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Shameless plug here:

Ark (Akuzawa) is probably going to be be in Holland sometime early next year for those interested. =D
Keavin, there's clips of Akuzawa demonstrating portions of this stuff in kicks as well, if you do search on Youtube for "Akuzawa".
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Old 05-02-2006, 06:17 AM   #77
DaveS
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
I'm not sure why planes are such a mystery here. Its perfectly explainable and quite basic why planes fly. Of course the reason is the airfoil of the wing generates the air on top to travel faster than the air on the bottom creating low pressure on top of the wing and high pressure on the bottom. This pressure differential pushes the wing up, therefore the plane goes up. What is so mystical about that? And what is inaccurate about gravity or Newton's laws? Am I missing something here?.
Going noticeably off topic here, but to quickly explain myself...

Newtonian gravity isn't a completely accurate picture of the universe - for instance, the orbit of Venus (iirc: it might be Mercury) has slight discrepancies with what Newton's laws predict - it accelerates at a slightly different rate and in a slightly different direction from what you'd expect. General relativity describes the motion of the planets far more accurately. Thus GR is a more accurate and more 'correct' theory, and Newtonian gravity, having been falsified experimentally, is 'wrong' - from the point of view of a theoretical physicist, it has no more relevance than the flat earth theory.

However:

GR is a very complicated theory and Newtonian gravity isn't. And it's accurate enough in limited situations, including most of those that we encounter in (say) engineering. Thus people use it to design planes. Using general relativity to do the calculations to design a plane that stays up would be highly impractical, although it'd almost certainly lead to the same conclusion. The explanation in terms of air pressure and and gravity is a bit of a fudge, but it's accurate enough that it always works in practice.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:39 AM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Funny that you mention Newtonian Physics. I am currently reading a book by the Dali Lama that discusses these various issues. i.e quantum physics and how science and buddhism merge.

There is much more to life than we sometimes percieve and meets the eye! however like you say we can get by on the 80% solution most of the time.

Things like aikido tend to focus on the other 20% i think.
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:59 AM   #79
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Wow, theory of flight, General Relativity, Newtonians laws, Quantum physics and Pareto's principle all in one thread, there's more to the "Jo-trick" than meets the eye.
And here's me thinking I am just doing simple mind body coordination exercises.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:13 PM   #80
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

the jo "trick" (drill) is a practice to manifest principle .it is a true principle and the effects are real .what makes scoffers react is that they usually think or say well i would never do that that way .but the purpose of the jo drill can only be appreciated through sincerity .like when doing kokyu exercise with a beginner and to avoid being duped they don't really grab .rather they grab with the idea of letting go as soon as they can ,not a real grab .not sincere .uke must be sincere and follow through with the idea of letting go when he has to not when he wants to .how easy it is for someone to demonstrate a known technique and then try to thwart it when you know it's coming .save that for randori not for drills .
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:13 PM   #81
Talon
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

This thread is interesting to say the least. Now if i could only have someone relatively local allow me to "see" and "feel" the internal power discussed ie. "Jo trick" or other internal power demonstration.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:36 PM   #82
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Good points Jason. Sincerity is really the crux of the issue. Thanks for keeping us focused on what is important about our training. I think we tend to forget that sometimes.
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:48 PM   #83
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
but the purpose of the jo drill can only be appreciated through sincerity
I don't get it, Jason, if you don't mind expanding. Or maybe I just disagree. The common variant I've seen of the jo-trick is for someone to stick their arm straight out in front of them and let a volunteer try to move it sideways or up and down. It's a demonstration of the connecting power of six-directions training, combined with some force-path controls.

For Ueshiba to extend the moment-arm even further with a jo was a bit of embellishment (and maybe a little too showy, since he never appears to be able to hold it very long in the available film clips), but still part of the same trick. I see his point, as will most people who are familiar with the principles. I say truthfully, that he does a pretty good job of trying to make the extended trick work, even though I also so that his Uke's tend to be overly cooperative and deferential. But then, I have a cause-and-effect mind. How does "sincerity" have anything to do with a mechanical trick, if I may ask?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:25 PM   #84
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Just to be clear, Mark, I don't quibble with any visualization you want to use (Ueshiba's visualization had to do with kami, so whatever floats your boat), but I don't need to pretend anything about uke's mind. I just re-direct forces using out-of-the-ordinary-but-not-magical body/mind skills. Each to his own.

Incidentally, the jo-trick can be done or approximated by someone who knows how to re-direct forces using a stiff/strong arm/shoulder. But that highlights an important point. Part of the skills of ki involve learning how to manipulate forces with the mind, but an equally important part is establishing and training a connection out to the extremities. How you 'bring ki out to the hands' is as important a point as being able to use the hara and force/kokyu/whatever directions. The interesting thing that catches my attention about Ueshiba doing the jo-trick is not that he does the jo-trick... how to do the trick is something I already understand... but the fact that you can see how relaxed he is while the forces come out to his hand. I.e., his is not "muscular ki" but is the real soft variety and it's trained very powerfully to be able to show, even momentarily, this kind of forces at such an extension. I.e., it is worth a "wow" because of that, not because of the principle behind the trick.

Regards,

Mike
To ignore the effect of mental perception through the ether ,kami ,esp or otherwise is not wise because it exists and is usually the defining point of combat .yes you can master ki concepts in a sterile environment but without attention to the spirit of the thing itself you will be like so many policemen who are marksmen but got killed with their own guns .their attention and connection to their gut feelings was maybe lacking .

but in your explanation of vector you seem to advocate use of "mind without movement" an ethereal state which to me is a magical state because it starts with mind alone ,which constitutes mystical .nothing dishonest about that which is mystical ,it's that it can be completely fathomed .like at present we can calculate the momentum of a particle or its position but not both at the same time .i would not cast aspersions on a physicist's view that lead him to a conclusion if it worked to get him there
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:43 PM   #85
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Jason DeLucia wrote:
To ignore the effect of mental perception through the ether ,kami ,esp or otherwise is not wise because it exists and is usually the defining point of combat .yes you can master ki concepts in a sterile environment but without attention to the spirit of the thing itself you will be like so many policemen who are marksmen but got killed with their own guns .their attention and connection to their gut feelings was maybe lacking .
No offense, Jason, but those statements tell me nothing but vague assertions of your opinions. And I can think of counter-examples without even trying, so I'll politely say "pass".
Quote:
but in your explanation of vector you seem to advocate use of "mind without movement" an ethereal state which to me is a magical state because it starts with mind alone ,which constitutes mystical .
Nope, there's nothing ethereal about it. Simple physiological skill that can be developed more extensively than most people realize.
Quote:
like at present we can calculate the momentum of a particle or its position but not both at the same time .i would not cast aspersions on a physicist's view that lead him to a conclusion if it worked to get him there
I have no idea why Heisenberg's uncertainty principle would be invoked in an Aikido discussion, other than as techno-babble. One should note that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle does not say "everything is uncertain." Rather, it tells us very exactly where the limits of uncertainty lie when we make measurements of sub-atomic events.


Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:45 PM   #86
statisticool
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Nope, there's nothing ethereal about it. Simple physiological skill that can be developed more extensively than most people realize.
How are "physiological skills" different from saying it is a combination of mechanics, timing, and using the body efficiently?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:18 AM   #87
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

To tell the truth up till I met a guy who had what we are probably talking about here I thought Aikido was all just good body mechanics. I think there's something to this fascia development(which I'm still trying to get my head around), as this guy's external body mechanics looks crap. The real kicker is when someone can express force from these terrible angles against my strong angles - slowly and humiliatingly. I'm also not sure if fascia conditioning makes skin feel harder or something but light contact with him feels hard. It seems like there's not many people around who describe the fascia conditioning though - this guy talks about putting his mind out somewhere - but that doesn't do much for me. Apart from that he seems to be guessing as to how he's developed these skills(or there could be stuff he's not saying).
Personally, I'm thinking that there is a lot more to misogi than I initially thought, but since a lot of dojo I've been in practice bits of this and most have none of the development that we are speaking of perhaps there are elements missing.

Last edited by johanlook : 05-03-2006 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:27 AM   #88
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Johan Look wrote:
The real kicker is when someone can express force from these terrible angles against my strong angles - slowly and humiliatingly. I'm also not sure if fascia conditioning makes skin feel harder or something but light contact with him feels hard.
Well, the fascia and control of forces are 2 different things, more or less, Johan. Think of the time Tohei showed he could push over the zen priests. He knew about both fascia and forces; they only knew about fascia (ki).
Quote:
Personally, I'm thinking that there is a lot more to misogi than I initially thought,
I think just about everyone in the West is clueless about what Ueshiba really did in his Misogi practice. It obviously had some extensive martial body conditioning that he didn't show everyone. After seeing that film clip with Ueshiba doing power releases during fune-kogi undo, I just throw my cards on the table and stop trying to guess... obviously a lot was witheld.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:30 AM   #89
MM
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think just about everyone in the West is clueless about what Ueshiba really did in his Misogi practice. It obviously had some extensive martial body conditioning that he didn't show everyone. After seeing that film clip with Ueshiba doing power releases during fune-kogi undo, I just throw my cards on the table and stop trying to guess... obviously a lot was witheld.

Regards,

Mike
Hi Mike,
Those last five words kind of baffle me. It just doesn't fit with Ueshiba in his later years. I believe he mentions that his aikido is for the whole world. When you read the stuff about him, it appears as if he's trying to get his version of "aikido" out there. So, I don't think that he witheld anything. Instead, I think that his students just didn't fully understand what he was teaching and how he was teaching. My two cents, anyway.

Mark
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:33 AM   #90
Brad Darr
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hey Mike,
For those of us who can't "think of Tohei pushing over zen priests" is there somewhere to see this or some reliable account? Just curious as I have never heard this mentioned before, but I don't know that much about Tohei sensei anyway. Thanks

Brad

the edges of the sword are life and death
no one knows which is which
-Ikkyu Sojun
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:36 AM   #91
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Those last five words kind of baffle me. It just doesn't fit with Ueshiba in his later years. I believe he mentions that his aikido is for the whole world. When you read the stuff about him, it appears as if he's trying to get his version of "aikido" out there. So, I don't think that he witheld anything. Instead, I think that his students just didn't fully understand what he was teaching and how he was teaching. My two cents, anyway.
Hi Mark:

Then you are a gentle, trusting soul.

If he was showing everything to everybody, Tohei and a number of others would not have publicly commented that Ueshiba didn't show them things and everyone in Aikido would already know how to do power releases and the jo-trick.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:42 AM   #92
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Brad Darr wrote:
For those of us who can't "think of Tohei pushing over zen priests" is there somewhere to see this or some reliable account? Just curious as I have never heard this mentioned before, but I don't know that much about Tohei sensei anyway. Thanks
Hi Brad:

Well, it never hurts to read everything you can about Aikido; even though it's a different piece of the pie, it's still the same pie. Read Shioda, Tomiki, Abe, Nishio, Saito, Tohei, etc., etc. I don't find that they're really doing much different (even though their students often are), but they're usually just giving slightly different perspectives of the same basic things that are in Aikido.

Tohei showed one time that he could push over some zen priests, even though they were "keeping their mind in their dantien"... yet Tohei could be immovable. Just goes to back up my point that Kiko (ki exercises) and Kokyu-ryoku are actually 2 different things, even though they are intertwined and both are called "ki" at times.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:00 AM   #93
MM
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Mark:

Then you are a gentle, trusting soul.

If he was showing everything to everybody, Tohei and a number of others would not have publicly commented that Ueshiba didn't show them things and everyone in Aikido would already know how to do power releases and the jo-trick.

Regards,

Mike
LOL, well, I don't remember anyone ever calling me a gentle, trusting soul before. That's a first.

The part about Ueshiba showing everything is just a working theory that I've been mulling over. I wouldn't say he showed everyone, but I think he might have showed them everything at one point or another.

I've read that some of his students just didn't understand the things he said to them. Now, they might have just attributed his speeches to Omoto Kyo, but what if they weren't? What if Ueshiba was actually telling them in his own way how to get to some of the levels he was on? What if it was his way of teaching.

It reminds me of something Ellis Amdur mentioned about part of his martial art. Something about how he had expected his students to pick up on a move but they didn't. But once directly taught and/or shown, it seemed so obvious. Well, I don't think Ueshiba explained it to anyone in that manner; he expected them to find it on their own.

But that didn't mean he didn't show everything he knew. Theoretically, anyway.

Mark
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:06 AM   #94
Jory Boling
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
...After seeing that film clip with Ueshiba doing power releases during fune-kogi undo...
Hi Mike,

was "that film clip" mentioned in an earlier post that I missed or can you remember in what film/video it was shown?

Jory
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:18 AM   #95
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Jory Boling wrote:
was "that film clip" mentioned in an earlier post that I missed or can you remember in what film/video it was shown?
It's from an old Aiki News videotape called "Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido". I looked to see if I can find it still offered by Stan Pranin's "Aikido Journal" (the new name for Aiki News) and I don't see it. It's a great video, though.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:23 AM   #96
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Looking over all this, I find myself wondering: what other Japanese martial arts focus on this stuff (internal strength / ki / kokyu / etc.)?

IIRC, either Ellis Amdur or Toby Threadgill mentioned there were a few Koryu, and there was a karate instructor at aiki-expo last year, and someone brought up something called taikiken in one of the earlier threads in this current ongoing discussion on the internal-ness of aikido. Seeing how that sentence is the limit of my knowledge, I'm curious: how frequently do other martial arts from Japan also discuss internal issues, or is aikido (relatively) unique in how much it focuses on ki & kokyu (if sometimes only in rhetoric)?
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Old 05-03-2006, 04:03 PM   #97
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

The point of Tohei and a number of others supposedly saying that Ueshiba didn't show them things is rather odd. How do they know if they weren't shown it?

And if a number of people saw it, doesn't that mean that he did in fact show people?

A secret of internal strength?:
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Old 05-03-2006, 04:05 PM   #98
Richard Langridge
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

He probably showed everything but to different people, hence all the confusion.
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Old 05-03-2006, 08:56 PM   #99
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

There are two curious clips here http://www.peterwutaichi.com/

in the articles/videos section that show this guy doing something that looks close to what Shioda used to do(didn't see Shioda do it in a chair though). Now besides the possibility that they guy could be using one of those prank handshake buzzers, is this some example of ground path making these guys jump like that?
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Old 05-03-2006, 09:09 PM   #100
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
LOL, well, I don't remember anyone ever calling me a gentle, trusting soul before. That's a first.

The part about Ueshiba showing everything is just a working theory that I've been mulling over. I wouldn't say he showed everyone, but I think he might have showed them everything at one point or another.

I've read that some of his students just didn't understand the things he said to them. Now, they might have just attributed his speeches to Omoto Kyo, but what if they weren't? What if Ueshiba was actually telling them in his own way how to get to some of the levels he was on? What if it was his way of teaching.

It reminds me of something Ellis Amdur mentioned about part of his martial art. Something about how he had expected his students to pick up on a move but they didn't. But once directly taught and/or shown, it seemed so obvious. Well, I don't think Ueshiba explained it to anyone in that manner; he expected them to find it on their own.

But that didn't mean he didn't show everything he knew. Theoretically, anyway.

Mark
Who was taught what

Hi all.
I would suggest....as I have before many times to re-read several interviews and books Stan has written.
You guys all know me. Hate me, love me, get frustrated etc. But for my part I have pointing in the same direction since the Aikido list days-before all these boards.
That there is adifferent way to train- with at least a "goal"- to be unlockable, unthrowable, pinning with your fingers, power to punch from a touch blah blah blah. And being told I'm nuts.


Ok, again,
Read where Tenryu was training with Ueshiba. What was he doing?
Pushing, everywhere, upstairs, up hills etc.
Read where Ueshiba admonsihed him to concentrate on T-H-A-T-type of stuff.
Read where after only three months
THREE MONTHS!!
Ueshiba dismissed him and said there is nothing more I can teach you. With what you know now you can go and be unbeatable.
Be what? Unbeatable?
Gee..any of that sound familair?

What or why do you suppose that a Sumo guy had such an advantage to learn? There are specific reasons.

Go read the fighting spririt of Japan : Harrison
In it he trains with Kanos Nephew after giving a large cash donation The nephew agrees to show him somthing rare. Takes him to...........an Aikijujutsu guy. What does he do??
Pushes.........
Does all Manner of things to push and pull and cannot be moved then
Wham.....power generation "no inch" punch.
Then Harrison asks about a 6th dan holder (Judo) about these mysterious powers. The guy says when the Judo guy is on his Judo game he is difficult to beat-when he uses these powers he cannot be thrown

Anyway, Upoon further questioning Harrison asks Do amyn men know these skills. He is told...no, only a few. This was in the 1920-30's

2006
Most people don't know.
Some have been shown and openly stated they don't want to do the work.
Others say they will.and don't.
What's changed?

Take what they will
Years have gone past me. I have had guys who only wanted to learn to punch from me. Others jujutsu, Still others-weapons.
Only a small percentage wanted to learn it all.
Its peoples own limited vision that prevents them from seeing.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-03-2006 at 09:22 PM.
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